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Thread: ESFp description (Filatova) edited!

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    Default ESFp description (Filatova) edited!

    Sensory-Ethical Extrovert
    SEE – ESFp – Napoleon (Leader)

    Installation of the consciousness in the leading bloc: The SEE is characterized by the drive to expand his influence, by the desire of authority and glory. In order to realize these goals it is necessary to learn how to control people, by manipulating their weaknesses and avoiding their strengths so as to never be conquered.


    Description of the Strong Functions:

    Se: The Strong individual. Irrepressibly he approaches his goals and, at any costs, tries to reach them. “Only success, only victory!”

    SEE – always the leader, ambitious and confident. Naturally proves to be the center of attention in any group. The desire, without fail, to lead, to control; leads to rivalries, competition with other aspirants. However, SEE deftly senses the nuances in his relations, wonderfully senses the moods of others towards him. If someone, whom he must deal with, is capable of holding him at a distance, of resisting him, SEE will not bother with him, but if, and when, he feels slack he can press and become unceremonious. Will not seek conflict without reason. Can act diplomatic and insinuating in order to achieve objectives. But if conflict arises he can express himself directly, unambiguously.

    Always, and in everything, SEE tries to display his advantages to others. Should he suffer injustice he will find a way to turn it around, presenting himself to others so as not to lose face, even conversely to appear the victor. He never acknowledges his injuries.

    SEE tends not to get lost in the difficult situation; in such cases he rather reacts with more strength, mobilizing to surmount the difficulty.

    Energetic and noisy, he creates the impression that he is occupying as much space as possible.

    SEE noticeably develops the shadow function of the extroverted sense of sensations (Se), especially when viewed from the exterior. SEE loves bright, garish clothing; he prefers to appear from “better to extravagant” rather than “everyday and gray”. It pleases him to be noticed, to garner the attention of others.

    Fi: SEE magnificently manipulates people by their moods and desires. He loves to be the center of attention, to fascinate others with his ideas. He easily provokes quarrels but just as easily reconciles them, as if playing; pulling the strings. It is important for him to preserve the good opinion of other towards him, not to let himself fall, to stress his talent and exclusiveness. He’s a great actor and can manifest outstanding diplomatic inclinations, well cultured.

    Sensing well the moods of others, SEE can support a comrade through a difficult moment; manifest his participation, his sympathy. By being naturally volitional and cheerful he impels other to act, not to fall apart or whine.

    The SEE – men with bright and intense emotional range – from angry indignation to noisy enthusiasm. He thus always finds himself included in the emotional situation, he is ready to act: to help, to sympathize, to fight, to condemn, - and no matter how he expresses his relation to that occurring he is always absolutely confident in the correctness of his sentence.

    With the opposite sex he readily displays initiative. Though to suffer rejection may be tragic he knows to move on.

    Strong excitability and emotionalism give rise to increased sexuality. Especially in the younger years it is difficult to settle down.

    SEE is prone to jealousy, may frequently suspect partner of treason, and does not pardon innocent flirtation.

    Bright emotionalism also develops in the love of arts; SEE especially loves music and singing. Frequently he has some of his own music, demonstrates to all his talent and ability.


    Description of the Weak Functions:

    Ti: The weakness of this function is developed in the fact that activities for the SEE frequently carry a chaotic nature; in his behaviour there is no systematic pattern of character.

    Even if SEE possesses a heavy stock of knowledge, he is not always able to sufficiently make use of it; his emotionalism frequently re-weighs logic. His erudition manifests itself in sudden flashes but he never keeps on one topic for long. An extroverted sensory type, his need for external activity frequently manifests itself in uncontrollable motor activity. Thus he may be prone to acting before thinking.

    Understanding that logic is not his strongest quality, SEE compensates for this in his business activities by placing a greater role in his personal contacts and connections. He attempts to work out the definite stereotypes of behaviour in different situations so as to not be caught unprepared.

    For SEE it is very important that the result of his work be visible and tangible. He wishes to obtain a return for his efforts. This may be exemplified through community acknowledgement (i.e. social status) and/or material evidence of acknowledgment (i.e. apartment, car, the latest gadget, the most up-to-date, most elegant, prestigious fashions…)

    Ne: Since the SEE focuses all his attention on the sensory area, he does well in interpreting the external manifestations of people, events and things, but cannot understand their secret meaning. He senses well, but badly comprehends in-depth. For this reason he finds it difficult to correctly evaluate others, his surroundings, and even himself; finds it difficult to find his true place in life. Nevertheless SEE will try to develop the role of a sensitive and attentive man, capable of correctly comprehending the current situation.

    He also finds it difficult, in view of the weakness of the intuition of time, to precisely plan activities beforehand. In such regards he’s apt to become impatient, finds it difficult to wait for something if he feels he needs it now.


    SEE at Work and in the Home

    When holding an executive position SEE maximally uses his strong traits: his active nature and ability to manipulate others. He always attempts to achieve the goal presented; in this case he can act by means of volitional pressure, and by the temptation of the forthcoming profit. He is best at succeeding at tasks with a tactical nature – he rapidly orients himself in the situation, easily varies his methods of operation, but at the same time poorly visualizes the distant prospect.

    He heavily suffers, and thus negatively reacts to, criticisms from others, especially if the discussion deals with his weak logical ability, randomness of activities and ill-considered nature of decisions. Sometimes the SEE will seek to get rid of the coworker whom, to him, is disposed towards excessive criticism.

    If he leads a small group his bustling style of leadership can lead to strained relations. SEE proves much more useful, in a leadership role, in a larger scale enterprise, especially if the group contains reasonable and farsighted members, capable of logically influencing him, of smoothing out the spontaneity of his activities from a distance.

    In the family SEE, as a rule, acts as the leader/dictator, he decides who must do something and what must be done at the given moment. Family holidays awaken his enthusiasm, which sometimes finds its way to the workplace where his desk is always cramped with the current entertainments. He loves knowing how to prepare well for such occasions, loves good food.

    He relates with zeal not only to himself but also to members of his family: they are all the best, the brightest, the most capable; no one can be compared with them in their multiple talents.

    SEE usually loves animals/pets; takes them in as members of the family.


    Summary of Functions:

    1. Se: The energetic, strong individual. Irrepressibly approaches a goal and tries to reach it at any cost. Strong volitional qualities. Knows how to care about own health and the health of close ones. Aesthetics in the home, food; all of this proceeds from the general principles of healthy worthwhileness.
    2. Fi: He separates people into his friends and strangers, highest and lowest, attempts to occupy as high a spot as possible on the vertical hierarchy. Knows how to make contact with others, easily can manipulate people in order to attain a goal.
    3. Ti: System, structure, objective laws – these are areas in which the SEE struggles. Finds it difficult to think deeply and thoroughly about a problem. Being very energetic, now and then acts in a chaotic, confused manner.
    4. Ne: Attempts to play the role of someone capable of penetrating into the essence of an occurrence, but frequently overestimates ability to do so. Prone to impulsive action, will not give self up to dreams and fantasies for extended periods of time, thus does not often try to comprehend the distant prospects – is too strongly tied to the ‘genuine reality’.


    Professional Possibilities:
    SEE performs admirably in professions that require contact with people at all levels: political activity, military service (in as high a rank as possible), jurisprudence, artistic activity, teaching, commerce, and secretarial work. People of this psycho-type should be warned against the selection of scientific activity, especially in regards to theoretical disciplines.

    Relations-
    Potentially Favourable:
    ILI (INTp), IEI (INFp), SLI (ISTp), LIE (ENTj)
    Potentially Adverse:
    LII (INTj), LSI (ISTj), EII (INFj), SEI (ISFp)
    INFp-Ni

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    Is Filatova an INTj by any chance?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Yeah, this is a really fucking weak description.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I think the worst I've ever read (from the Russians).
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    lol, some of the descriptions definitely seem to be biased and thus offensive... but it's not like they're lies. I think Filatova is typed as INFj
    INFp-Ni

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    huh. i didn't think it was that bad. it sounds exactly like an esfp coworker of mine.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    How do you feel about the ENTp description stickied in Gamma? This is just another example of quadra bias in descriptions.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    How do you feel about the ENTp description stickied in Gamma? This is just another example of quadra bias in descriptions.
    huh? what entp description?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    er... Alpha
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    er... Alpha
    you mean that stratayevskaya or whatever? i don't know. it's hard to understand because it hasn't been adequately translated.

    maybe filatova has some blind spots or something...the estp and the infp ones were pretty good. and the intj one too. isfp come to think of it was a little bit surface or something, and maybe the esfp one is too. i don't think it's misutii though, he's just translating.

    could be that one's type influences one's ability to see certain other types with depth. but are you kidding? entp descriptions read the worst out of any that i've ever seen! according to a lot of descriptions, we are bumbling, egocentric, childish diletantes who make no real contribution to anything and just annoy the hell out of everybody.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I don't think the translation is the issue. I just think that it paints a negative picture, just like a lot of other descriptions written by people with unfavorable intertype relations to the subject. It would be extremely difficult not to allow any quadra/type/function bias into such descriptions.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    eh. so who should write what descriptions? each person's supervisor, mirror, dual or conflict?

    the russian language translation is part of the problem, i think. just look at the "erotic" conversation we were having earlier...do they mean sexual or romantic? how the hell do we know? not the whole problem but part of the problem.

    anyway, you could make the same argument for your identity writing your type description...they know their own type so well, they're bound to point out weaknesses, (and over-focus on them) whereas another type would even think to do that.

    suggestion could be: whoever writes a type description has to indicate their type, at least that way you can intuit their biases!

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Someone from the same quadra. Not that type descriptions like this one shouldn't exist. It's good to see how other types view certain types as sometimes.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    people from the same quadra are positively biased though.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Being written by people of the same quadras values makes for descriptions because of that type can relate to, imo.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    i spose. then you get into mbti-style sugar-coated type descriptions.

    it's all about perspective, isn't it? different types are going to experience other types slightly differently. sometimes the perspective of a conflict relation identifies the problem quite clearly. at other times, people need a more supportive approach and a positive spin on their strengths and weaknesses.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I don't think the translation is the issue. I just think that it paints a negative picture, just like a lot of other descriptions written by people with unfavorable intertype relations to the subject. It would be extremely difficult not to allow any quadra/type/function bias into such descriptions.
    one thing i noticed about both the INFp and ESFp description is that the word "manipulates" comes up a lot in the russian machine translation. I didn't bother to change it in either. But I think that "manipulates" definitely has negative connotations in english. If it was, for example, replaced with "influences" or "shapes" the sentence would come out meaning the same thing but in a much more PC way.

    personally I don't see a problem with this ESFp description because it can be used in conjunction with more "positive" ESFp descriptions to paint a more accurate picture of the type. Also although negative portraits may seem unpleasant to the eyes, focusing on another's faults makes it a lot easier to type them... our culture seems to be sadistic that way, lol
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    i spose. then you get into mbti-style sugar-coated type descriptions.

    it's all about perspective, isn't it? different types are going to experience other types slightly differently. sometimes the perspective of a conflict relation identifies the problem quite clearly. at other times, people need a more supportive approach and a positive spin on their strengths and weaknesses.
    That's how I see it.

    To me, it's perfectly natural that some types might describe ENTjs as opinionated windbags who like to appear self-assured but are afraid of really tough confrontations, especially physical ones, and who are useless with manual work and daily details -- it would be pointless for me to say "that's a bias" etc. In fact, it would be useful if all types could have a "go" at all other types.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    In fact, it would be useful if all types could have a "go" at all other types.
    Yes. We could have a huge database of 256 type descriptions and 1920 relationship descriptions--it would increase the precision of socionics immeasurably!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I think the worst I've ever read (from the Russians).
    I am a little surprised by this description, coming from Filatova, especially after reading some of the others that were so sensitively written. But I don't know if it's really a problem with the description itself or a conflict I have with the Socionics idea of equating Se so much with ambition.

    I don't really have a problem with someone being ambitious, but it seems to me that it's not that type related. I think there are ambitious people of a number of different types who want to climb to the highest position. In contrast, it seems to me that I've met a number of people who had to be SEEs and who didn't seem that ambitious career-wise, or at least hadn't progressed to a very high position. Some people I've met who seemed SEE were interested in being art teachers, or dentists, or were happy in sales or graphic arts positions...whereas this description suggests that the only place for an SEE is either as a politician or a CEO.

    The one thing it mentions, though...trying to convey the appearance of taking up a lot of space (seeing physically bigger in other people's eyes than they really are)...is an insightful comment, and I've seen that in some SLEs, but not all.

    I guess what this really leads to is, what about all the people who are Se types according to Jung's description. Are they all Si types? And if so, how come they're different from other Si types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I guess what this really leads to is, what about all the people who are Se types according to Jung's description. Are they all Si types? And if so, how come they're different from other Si types?
    I think that the people Jung was thinking of when he wrote his Extraverted Sensing Type description were mainly Se EPs, so SEE and SLE, but he focused on the sensation-seeking EP behavior, rather than on the "ready for battle" mode focused on by Socionics. I also think that he may have included observatiosn of SLIs in that description.

    I think his Introverted Sensing Type describes mainly depressed SEIs and LSIs.

    Which means -- I think it's a huge mistake to go to Jung's descriptions as if they were the "true" Socionics descriptions. They are not. Some of them are very good for Socionics and others are very misleading. Jung was brilliant in noticing those types and functions, it doesn't mean that what he wrote is still more valid than everything that has been written since him.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I guess what this really leads to is, what about all the people who are Se types according to Jung's description. Are they all Si types? And if so, how come they're different from other Si types?
    I think that the people Jung was thinking of when he wrote his Extraverted Sensing Type description were mainly Se EPs, so SEE and SLE, but he focused on the sensation-seeking EP behavior, rather than on the "ready for battle" mode focused on by Socionics. I also think that he may have included observatiosn of SLIs in that description.

    I think his Introverted Sensing Type describes mainly depressed SEIs and LSIs.

    Which means -- I think it's a huge mistake to go to Jung's descriptions as if they were the "true" Socionics descriptions. They are not. Some of them are very good for Socionics and others are very misleading. Jung was brilliant in noticing those types and functions, it doesn't mean that what he wrote is still more valid than everything that has been written since him.
    For what's worth, my interpretation of Jung Se is completely compatible with socionics.

    Jung says Se-s want to experience the sensations given by objects.

    Se-s in socionics are ambitious because they want the sensations given by certain objects. Some objects, in order to be obtained, require very high positions. Some others, don't. This all depends on individual preferences.

    So say an ESFp wants to experience high society, he/she has be rich. Say an ESFp just likes to be in graphic art and feels fulfilled doing it, he/she won't feel the need for much else.

    The difference with Si types is that Si sensations are PLEASURABLE and Se sensations are INTENSE. The two things sometimes mix, sometimes don't.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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