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Thread: Socionic Quadras and Spiral Dynamics

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    machintruc's Avatar
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    Default Socionic Quadras and Spiral Dynamics

    I am also interested in Spiral Dynamics theory. I studied it since months. I am not very experienced in Socionics and SD so I can be mistaken.

    Spiral Dynamics talks about value systems in people. It is a potentially infinite emergent model and for now (2007), we know the 8 first levels.

    Beck and Cowan associated that levels to something called "vMEMES" which stands for "value Memes". At each level is associated a value system.

    Those who know Socionics will understand that Quadras contains also "value systems" but that value system depends on dominant cognitive processes.

    According to Reinin,

    ALPHA is : reasonable, subjectivist, democratic
    BETA is : resolute, subjectivist, aristocratic
    GAMMA is : resolute, objectivist, democratic
    DELTA is : reasonable, objectivist, aristocratic

    First, RED and BLUE (CP and DQ) are respectively associated to POWER and ORDER ; they sound aristocratic.

    Second, ORANGE and GREEN (ER and FS) are respectively associated to SUCCESS and HARMONY ; they sound democratic.

    Third, BLUE and ORANGE sound dogmatism-oriented, in respectively absolute and multiple ways ; let's associate that to objectivism

    Fourth, RED and GREEN sound subject-oriented, in respectively egocentric and altruistic ways ; let's associate that to subjectivism.

    I can find these hypothetic correlations :

    ALPHA : GREEN (FS)
    BETA : RED (CP)
    GAMMA : ORANGE (ER)
    DELTA : BLUE (DQ)

    ---

    http://www.clarewgraves.com/theory_c...uristTable.htm
    http://www.spiraldynamics.org/aboutsd_overview.htm
    http://www.globalvaluesnetwork.com/01WhatDemo02.asp

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    While there might be interesting connections between these two theories I think the way you've laid it out has nothing to do with reality.

    You got one thing right though... Beta is of course the instinctive, primitive quadra, something that ties in beatifully with the Red vMeme

    Seriosly though. I don't know how you would try to relate Socionics & Spiral Dynamics with each other but this is is definately NOT the way to do it. While you might potentially find more people of a given type at a certain level (don't know if I believe this to be a useful way of thinking though), suggesting that all people of a given quadra are stuck at a certain vMeme would be silly.

    In fact one of the biggest proponents of Spiral Dynamics and its' derivatives is Ken Wilber, who is ESTp IMO. His "Integral Institute" is even set up specifically targeting people who primarily use a Yellow(integrative) or higher type of cognition.

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    preliminarily, i would correlate the systems thus:
    [list]
    [*]beige- probably Se, but conceivably Si. both A and N are clearly sensory in nature.[*]purple- generally, sounds Ni/Fe. B sounds very Ni, while perhaps less can be discerned from O, but it does include such factors as "according to tradition," which points to Fe (although that line of Fe is perhaps more in line with alpha Fe).[*]red- clearly Se[*]blue- maybe Ij temperament. hard to say.[*]orange- Te[*]green- Fe[*]yellow- G sounds very Ni, but T appears much more Ne/Ti. very hard to say. there's probably no good correlation here. NT, maybe with a moderate emphasis towards gamma NT, is probably the best fit.[*]turquoise- i am inclined to say this sort of thinking is not type-related, at least in socionics. if anything, this is probably most indicative of irrational functions and irrationality.[*]coral- lacks sufficient explanation.

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    It would be important to be careful about SD when dealing with Socionics. SD can affect the use of a person's cognitive processes, so we could mistype him.

    Fabien & Patricial Chabreuil use Enneagram and SD together for this reason.

    They found that each psychological type can be, either confortable or not, in a SD level.

    For example, an extrovert dominant-DQ can pass as an introvert, or a thinking dominant-FS can pass as a feeling type.


    In fact one of the biggest proponents of Spiral Dynamics and its' derivatives is Ken Wilber, who is ESTp IMO. His "Integral Institute" is even set up specifically targeting people who primarily use a Yellow(integrative) or higher type of cognition.
    Beware. There are two SD schools : SD and SDi.

    SDi is an ALTERED SD model. It links SD to spirituality. SDi implies that Catholics are at level-4 and Bouddhists are at level-8, as a Catholic, I am really offended by that.

    SDi sees SD as a map of psychological development. They suppose that it is better to be relativistic than to be multiplistic. I, a thinking type, is offended by that.

    SDi is linked with AQAL model, which extends SD with 4 more levels, levels which are related to Bouddhist Spirituality.

    comparing SD and SDi is like comparing MBTI to Keirsevian "Temperament" Theory :wink:

    SD can talks us about our use of socionic cognitive processes in these systems. I have related that to quadras, because quadras can have conflicts each other, especially alpha-gamma and beta-delta. We can suppose this is partly why it is more difficult to rise from DQ to ER, than from ER to FS. FS has some tolerance and respect for DQ, but FS can see ER as a narrow-minded redneck system.

    Personnally, I am trying to synthesise Socionics, Spiral Dynamics, Enneagram and Memetic Theory, to a Unified Model. I am wondering if there are not other theories which can be added to this synthesis. Socionics itself is a synthesis, we all know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Beware. There are two SD schools : SD and SDi.

    SDi is an ALTERED SD model. It links SD to spirituality. SDi implies that Catholics are at level-4 and Bouddhists are at level-8, as a Catholic, I am really offended by that.
    Yes. First of all, Wilber goes on and on about how no level is better than the other and how all levels are needed and likely to stick around for a long time; supposedly the Yellow vMeme has a certain tolerance for all the lower memes... Second of all, as far as I've understood he never explitly argues that ALL of catholicism is at Level-4 or that any religion can pigenholed in such a fashion. He merely states that religions are interpreted differently according to which level your "center of gravity" is at.

    From Ken Wilber Online:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Wilber
    "Okay, so let's look at the phenomena of states and stages using Spiral Dynamics as an example. As we were saying, a person at red can have an altered state of gross, subtle, or causal experience (e.g., a person at red can have a peak experience of nature mysticism, deity mysticism, or formless mysticism). A person at blue can also have an altered state of gross, subtle, or causal experience. And so can orange, green, yellow, and so on. In other words, using this simple model as an example, each of the 8 stages can experience the 3 major states. This gives us a grid of 24 different types of spiritual experiences. Our researchers here at IC have found credible examples of all 24 (except at the extreme limits, where things fade out). [See Sidebar G, subheading: 'A Lattice of Altered States'; Integral Psychology; and Combs, The Radiance of Being, second revised edition.]

    "It is my opinion that every one of those spiritual experiences is, or can be, a real and authentic experience. However, those experiences become more adequately interpreted the higher the stage that experiences them. A turquoise experience of the Sacred, for example, would include the fact that the Divine is given freely to all sentient beings, whereas a blue experience of the Sacred maintains that God is given only to a chosen people, or only to a few who embrace this version of God, or only to this nation, and so on--in other words, blue is ethnocentric Spirit, turquoise is worldcentric Spirit. Although both of those individuals might have had an authentic spiritual experience (in this case, an experience of a very real, very authentic subtle state), the turquoise interpretation is more adequate to Spirit than blue because turquoise has more developmental depth and is thus more inclusive and more integral. "
    http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/boo...r_h/index.cfm/



    Clearly he doesn't believe that you have to become a Buddhist to experience genuine spirituality. If anything he says that all kinds of religions are "genuine". Of course, if you're primarily interpreting your faith from the ethnocentric blue vMeme this is going to upset you no matter what, simply because it changellenges your claim of having the exclusive answer to everything...

    Another thing: what do your Socionics correlations mean exactly? That all alphas are some kind of new superhumans capable of a higher level of cognition? And if spiral dynamics is supposed to evolve as new vMemes appear, what happens to the current correlations?

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Personnally, I am trying to synthesise Socionics, Spiral Dynamics, Enneagram and Memetic Theory, to a Unified Model. I am wondering if there are not other theories which can be added to this synthesis. Socionics itself is a synthesis, we all know that.
    Please do, and put it on the net when you're done, it would make my Ti hidden agenda very happy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc

    Personnally, I am trying to synthesise Socionics, Spiral Dynamics, Enneagram and Memetic Theory, to a Unified Model. I am wondering if there are not other theories which can be added to this synthesis. Socionics itself is a synthesis, we all know that.
    what unified model? a unified model would potentially cover every quantum variable influencing the attitude of every organism that has ever existed in deriving its conclusions. this is why these different models exist; they measure slightly different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kopernikus
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Beware. There are two SD schools : SD and SDi.

    SDi is an ALTERED SD model. It links SD to spirituality. SDi implies that Catholics are at level-4 and Bouddhists are at level-8, as a Catholic, I am really offended by that.
    Another thing: what do your Socionics correlations mean exactly? That all alphas are some kind of new superhumans capable of a higher level of cognition? And if spiral dynamics is supposed to evolve as new vMemes appear, what happens to the current correlations?
    I think ALPHA types can possibly be more confortable at GREEN than other levels, and GAMMA types more confortable at ORANGE, for example. The Chabreuil have done the same thing for enneagram types, and I thought I could do that ; the Chabreuil said that for example, a type 3 prefer naturally ORANGE, a type 6 prefer naturally PURPLE, for example. These "correlations" can correspond to natural preferences.

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    I see. Well then I might not be so interested in your theory after all, that doesn't sound realistic to me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc

    I think ALPHA types can possibly be more confortable at GREEN than other levels, and GAMMA types more confortable at ORANGE, for example. The Chabreuil have done the same thing for enneagram types, and I thought I could do that ; the Chabreuil said that for example, a type 3 prefer naturally ORANGE, a type 6 prefer naturally PURPLE, for example. These "correlations" can correspond to natural preferences.
    i would not entirely disagree with that idea, but i think it makes a lot more sense to correlate these cognitions of SD with the simpler information elements and simpler aspects rather than quadra, and i also think that your analysis that green=alpha, orange=gamma, etc, is based on dichotomies that are, in truth, of minimal importance as compared to many other aspects of socionics.

    if you look at the correlations i drew from each SD level to the socionics correlation, you will see that i said orange= and green= . in this light, it would definitely make sense that alpha be green and gamma orange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    what unified model? a unified model would potentially cover every quantum variable influencing the attitude of every organism that has ever existed in deriving its conclusions. this is why these different models exist; they measure slightly different things.
    Different models exist, but some are compatible, and some are mergeable. I don't teach you anything if I tell you Socionics is an improved synthesis of freudian topographical theories, Kepinski IM theory, and Jungian function theory.

    For example, Memetics talks of cognitive informations, as Socionics talks of cognitive processes. Information Elements concerns what memetics calls "host" and Information Aspects concerns what memetics calls "vector". They are probably totally compatible each other.

    Synthesising Enneagram and Socionics, can be hard, but both models are useful, as different enneatypes of a same sociotypes can behave very differently. For example, think about different possible enneatypes of an ISTj ; especially : ISTj-1 ; ISTj-5 ; ISTj-6 (phobic and cp); and ISTj-8.

    As I said, Socionics and SD can complete each other. If I can find how they are related, I can possibly find "overlapping zones". This remains an hypothesis. For the moment I'm contenting with choosing, studying, and applying separate models.

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    so how are information aspects different from information metabolism elements?

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    so how are information aspects different from information metabolism elements?
    Information Aspects are "present" in the reality.

    Information Elements are implanted in functions to make you percieve the reality.

    IA and IE are both based on internal/external, statics/dynamics, objects/fields dichotomies.

    Functions are "regions" of the psyche based on the well-known accepting/producing, strong/weak, concious/unconcious dichotomies. This means Functions are not , ... but 1, 2, 3 and so on.

    http://socionist.blogspot.com/search...tion%20aspects

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    and, based on that, you would call these "totally incompatible?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    and, based on that, you would call these "totally incompatible?"
    I feel Memetics and Socionics COMpatible because our reality is mostly (or totally ?) composed of memes. Memes are coded and decoded by Socionic cognitive processes. The main idea of socionics is not really types, but information exchange. In fact memes are cognitive informations.

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    If there is a correlation you'd expect them to progress in the alpha -> beta -> gamma -> delta sequence (or opposite)... Anything else may become difficult to rationalize, though I'm not yet saying impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    If there is a correlation you'd expect them to progress in the alpha -> beta -> gamma -> delta sequence (or opposite)... Anything else may become difficult to rationalize, though I'm not yet saying impossible.
    If I'm right, the cycle would be CP-Beta, DQ-Delta, ER-Gamma, FS-Alpha.

    Even if this is wrong, SD is interesting if it can help us explain, how brain-mind capacities (N to U) can make us mistype someone, or how life conditions (A to H) can make him become in a subtype.

    I said how Coping Capacites affect typing. Now I'll say how Life Conditions affect it :

    Let's consider odd-numbered Levels as "extrovert" Levels, and even-numbered Levels, as "introvert" Levels.

    Let's suppose Melissa is ESFp. His ego functions are 1 2 .

    If she grows in C (Level-3) life conditions, she is likely to become a subtype.
    If she grows in D (Level-4) life conditions, she is likely to become a subtype.

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    *bump*

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