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Thread: Integral Type of Rome

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    Default Integral Type of Rome

    E

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    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Maybe I should move there one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Maybe I should move there one day.
    lol...i think now rome is more like isfp
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Modern Rome is indeed ISFp.

    As for ancient Rome --

    Republican Rome was mostly Beta, an ISTj-ENFj mix.

    That continued more or less under the Empire until Trajan, after which it became mostly Gamma, ENTj-ISFj.

    That continued more or less until Alexander Severus, after which it became more or less a sort of senile ISTp.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Modern Rome is indeed ISFp.

    As for ancient Rome --

    Republican Rome was mostly Beta, an ISTj-ENFj mix.

    That continued more or less under the Empire until Trajan, after which it became mostly Gamma, ENTj-ISFj.

    That continued more or less until Alexander Severus, after which it became more or less a sort of senile ISTp.
    Expat I owe you an apology: I now think that Ceasar was ENTJ. Also his ally, Antony, was also ENTJ. I still think that Octavian was INTP though.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Maybe I should move there one day.
    lol...i think now rome is more like isfp

    i might b miss-interpreting dio here, but i don't think he's referring to Roma, ie Italy's capital city.

    was it "ancient" rome you're thinking of Dio? or am i miss-interpreting you here...? Anyway, if we're referring to the same "historical period", i agree with you that Rome's ESTJ

    Indeed Felafel, you are right.

    However I still think that Rome the city is still ESTJ, even today.

    I could be wrong though. Italy overall is ISFP, especially the south. The north of Italy is ISFJ I think.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    ษminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Burocracy, administration, legal codes, practical engineering... ESTj heaven.

    If it had been beta, they would probably had not conquered so much. The key of war is, above all, the art of managing your resources effectively.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Burocracy, administration, legal codes, practical engineering... ESTj heaven.

    If it had been beta, they would probably had not conquered so much. The key of war is, above all, the art of managing your resources effectively.
    Would an INFj also find such a society to be pure heaven? The pagan religions of the ancient world have always captured my imagination, and I most certainly would have found it meaningful to be a priestess in the temples of the gods. Receiving those who seek the vague answers of the Oracles is a position I would crave. I've read that the spirituality of the Romans had a very practical side, it was about making contracts and payments to the gods for favors that one needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    If it had been beta, they would probably had not conquered so much.
    This obviously shows how you don't understand anything about socionics.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    If it had been beta, they would probably had not conquered so much.
    This obviously shows how you don't understand anything about socionics.
    I think if it were Delta, they would not have conquered so much. Beta would do a better job.
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Expat I owe you an apology: I now think that Ceasar was ENTJ. Also his ally, Antony, was also ENTJ. I still think that Octavian was INTP though.
    I really don't see how Antony could be ENTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    If it had been beta, they would probably had not conquered so much.
    This obviously shows how you don't understand anything about socionics.
    FDG, I think that she means that betas would squander their resources very quickly. An example is the most brilliant of all generals, Alexander of Macedon. By the age of thirty he reached India, however at 30 he died, of malaria. The empire crumbled immediately after his death.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    DJ hi

    What type do you think was Sparta? ESTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
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    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Expat I owe you an apology: I now think that Ceasar was ENTJ. Also his ally, Antony, was also ENTJ. I still think that Octavian was INTP though.
    I really don't see how Antony could be ENTj.
    You could be right. I said that from a TV documentary I saw on PBS. I could be wrong. I will check again. What about Octavian?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    You could be right. I said that from a TV documentary I saw on PBS. I could be wrong. I will check again. What about Octavian?
    I've already said that I think Octavian was ENTj, but I don't find impossible that an INTp would act as he did in that situation. I just think, as a whole, ENTj makes more sense. Why would you prefer INTp to ENTj?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    You could be right. I said that from a TV documentary I saw on PBS. I could be wrong. I will check again. What about Octavian?
    I've already said that I think Octavian was ENTj, but I don't find impossible that an INTp would act as he did in that situation. I just think, as a whole, ENTj makes more sense. Why would you prefer INTp to ENTj?
    About Octavian: I read his biographies by some of the Greek historians, and he seems introverted to me. He usually didn't command his armies directly in battle. His wife seemed ISFJ to me, and his relationship with her does not seem duality to me. They didn't seem to love each other. He had this habit of spending time alone in a kind of laboratory that he had put together. He sort of looks like Putin.

    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    About Octavian: I read his biographies by some of the Greek historians, and he seems introverted to me. He usually didn't command his armies directly in battle.
    That's not enough evidence of Socionics introversion. It only means that he thought others (like Agrippa) did it better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    His wife seemed ISFJ to me, and his relationship with her does not seem duality to me. They didn't seem to love each other.
    I agree that Livia was ISFj, and to me it seems a ENTj-ISFj long-term marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    He had this habit of spending time alone in a kind of laboratory that he had put together. He sort of looks like Putin.
    Laboratory? What are you talking about? Greek historians? Do you mean Cassius Dio?

    As for "sort of looks like Putin" -- no comment.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    The biography I was referring to is Roman, About the laboratory, they use the greek term for workshop, I said laboratory because in modern times workshop is very menial, whereas this room seems to have been something of a studio/workshop:

    In the other details of his life it is generally agreed that he was most temperate and without even the suspicion of any fault. He lived at first p237near the Forum Romanum, above the Stairs of the Ringmakers, in a house which had belonged to the orator Calvus; afterwards, on the Palatine, but in the no less modest dwelling of Hortensius, which was remarkable neither for size nor elegance, having but short colonnades with columns of Alban stone,97 and rooms without any marble decorations or handsome pavements. For more than forty years too he used the same bedroom in winter and summer;98 although he found the city unfavourable to his health in the winter, yet continued to winter there. 2 If ever he planned to do anything in private or without interruption, he had a retired place at the top of the house, which he called "Syracuse"99 and "technyphion."100 In this he used to take refuge, or else in the villa of one of his freedmen in the suburbs; but whenever he was not well, he slept at Maecenas's house. For retirement he went most frequently to places by the sea and the islands of Campania, or to the towns near Rome, such as Lanuvium, Praeneste or Tibur, where he very often held court in the colonnades of the Temple of Hercules. 3 He disliked large and sumptuous country palaces, actually razing to the ground one which his granddaughter Julia built on a lavish scale. His own villas, which were modest enough, he decorated not so much with handsome statues and pictures as with terraces, groves, and objects noteworthy for their antiquity and rarity; for example, at Capreae the monstrous bones of huge sea monsters and wild beasts, called the "bones of the giants," and the weapons of the heroes.
    99-With reference to the study of Archimedes, or perhaps to the general use of such elevated rooms in Syracuse.

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    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    That means nothing, Dio. What is more important for his temperament is how he acted throughout his career.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    He still seems introverted to me. He certainly seems very different from Ceasars' extravagance. And also he seems to have had problems with the women in his life, fr instance:

    Meanwhile, in Italy, the situation was not pacified. Octavian's administration was not appeasing, and a revolt was about to occur. Moreover, he divorced Clodia, giving a curious explanation: she was annoying.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    He still seems introverted to me. He certainly seems very different from Ceasars' extravagance. And also he seems to have had problems with the women in his life, fr instance:

    Meanwhile, in Italy, the situation was not pacified. Octavian's administration was not appeasing, and a revolt was about to occur. Moreover, he divorced Clodia, giving a curious explanation: she was annoying.
    So only "introverts" have problems with women? Come on, this is a ridiculous point.

    As for the divorce: that was Clodia Pulchra, daughter of Fulvia, who was -- Mark Antony's wife at the time. He married her for political reasons, just like Antony married his sister Octavia in turn. That was the way of things in the Roman aristocracy. In terms of his personality, it means nothing. Zero.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Well he could have come up with a btter excuse than: she was annoying.

    I don't see why you think that he was ENTj, by the way. He seems very introverted to me.
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    @Expat: what about ISFJ for Antony?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Well he could have come up with a btter excuse than: she was annoying.
    He did not need to make any excuse at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    I don't see why you think that he was ENTj, by the way. He seems very introverted to me.
    Simple.

    1) I know ENTjs
    2) I know Roman history and his life in particular
    3) I know what makes a person a Socionics introvert or extrovert.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    @Expat: what about ISFJ for Antony?
    I don't think so.

    Back to Octavian.

    I see EJ temperament in all his career - always acting quickly, trying to stay ahead of events. After a bad start as a public politican - Cicero wrote a very scathing letter about his first performance in making a public speech - he managed to develop the public personality of a charming, kindly figure who nevertheless could be quickly ruthless when necessary. None of that is impossible for INTp but it seems to make ENTj with Fe role more likely.

    I can only guess that you're looking at "introversion" from the point of view of low Fe, and that's just wrong IMO. From the point of view of temperament, EJ makes more sense than IP as his "default" temperament.

    Your arguments about "problems with women" and "not commanding armies in person" as indicating Socionics introversion, to me, are not really good evidence in Socionics.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Integral type of Rome

    ISFP then?

    Expat, how come they conquered the known world? One would thin kthat their lack of Te would impede them, sort of like Italy in the second world war.

    Nowhere does the Roman talent for organization show itself so clearly as in its army.
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    Default Re: Roma-once more

    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    ISFP then?

    Expat, how come they conquered the known world? One would thin kthat their lack of Te would impede them, sort of like Italy in the second world war.

    Nowhere does the Roman talent for organization show itself so clearly as in its army.
    Has Rome in its present version conquered the world? Would anyone even think of that?

    What I said, very clearly, was:

    Rome as in today's city - ISFp
    Ancient Rome as in from the Republic up to Trajan - ENFj-ISTj
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    If it had been beta, they would probably had not conquered so much.
    This obviously shows how you don't understand anything about socionics.
    To build an empire is much more than just fighting wars, my dear. It requieres the ability to bring the pax and prosperity to the conquered grounds, so your power stays because nobody complains. As much as Rome seems beta for their military tradition, the Empire was delta with lots of alpha influence from Greece.

    Romans were great because, after all, all roads go to Rome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    To build an empire is much more than just fighting wars, my dear. It requieres the ability to bring the pax and prosperity to the conquered grounds, so your power stays because nobody complains. As much as Rome seems beta for their military tradition, the Empire was delta with lots of alpha influence from Greece.
    Rome's Beta-ness in the Republic and early Empire was visible not only in fighting wars. Rome basically conquered cities (or nations, etc) and then co-opted their ruling elites. That is why, at first, Roman citizens were mainly those around the city of Rome itself, then, gradually, Italian regions (and eventually all of Italy), then Roman colonies in the provinces, and so on. If you insist, yes, that could be seen as a bit of Delta. However, there was also a ruthless either-you-are-with-me-or-you-are-not attitude, reflected mainly on how they went about crushing rebellions: they were relatively easy-going (by ancient standards) when conquering, but totally merciless, even nasty, when crushing a revolt of someone who had rebelled. That is Beta or even Beta-Gamma.

    Apart from that, Rome's ENFj-ness is visible in their flair for Rome's "image", "spectacle", traditions such as the triumph -- all a huge PR exercise.

    As for building roads -- the roads were built, primarily, to allow for quick movement of troops. And since when building roads is exclusively ESTj and not ISTj?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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