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Thread: LSI-EIE Duality Discussion and Examples (ISTj and ENFj)

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    Default LSI-EIE Duality Discussion and Examples (ISTj and ENFj)

    ENFj and ISTj duality seems pretty funny to me though I can see myself with and ISTj...does anyone what qualities about ENFj's attracts ISTj's?

    ++added: see also Duality observations
    Last edited by silke; 08-19-2017 at 06:09 AM. Reason: added link
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    ISTjs value Fe>Fi and need active Fe from others --

    That is to say: they crave an expressive emotional environment but aren't sure how to create it themselves; so they prefer precisely the ENFj "drama queens" who will create clear emotional environments. Also, the ISTj wants to project some sort of image onto other people and is unsure of how to do that, the ENFj takes care of that, too.

    The ISTj, on his/her own, may tend to get stuck into emotional stagnation ie some sort of depression, but not happy with that -- the ENFj gets the ISTj "moving" emotionally.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat



    The ISTj, on his/her own, may tend to get stuck into emotional stagnation ie some sort of depression, but not happy with that -- the ENFj gets the ISTj "moving" emotionally.

    That's weird...it seems ENFj's do that for me too...
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    If you are Fe IP, you also need clear (and preferably positive) Fe from others.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    My parents are semiduals: INTj and ENFj.

    I can easily see how this would work, because my mom is friendly but rather serious, like lacking (Ne) sense of humor. She complains a lot about my dad's sense of humor.

    ISTj are quite serious...

    Also, she complains about my dad "staying at home to rest". I guess she would like my father to keep working all the day.

    ISTj work a lot...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    My parents are semiduals: INTj and ENFj.

    I can easily see how this would work, because my mom is friendly but rather serious, like lacking (Ne) sense of humor. She complains a lot about my dad's sense of humor.

    ISTj are quite serious...

    Also, she complains about my dad "staying at home to rest". I guess she would like my father to keep working all the day.

    ISTj work a lot...
    My parents are also semiduals: ISTj(father) and ESFj(mother)
    My mom is super friendly and sociable (Fe). She often complains my dad is too serious, too logical.

    Also she complains that my dad "works too much" and would like him to take more days off.

    lol it's funny how our reports are so similar yet different. I can totally see how ENFj/ISTj duality could work.
    INFp-Ni

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    lol. This is a good thread. Keep posting. I need lots and lots of more information.

    People often complain how they can't stand ISTjs who just won't change their minds about things! I'm the other way around. I keep complaining that people change their minds all the time. I don't understand why people around me won't just pick one opinion and stick with it. Everyone keeps giving me multiple-option answers. When I need to know something, I'll usually end up interrogating the other person, specifying the question to end up with only one solid answer. The ISTj instructor I had didn't do it. hehe... in stead, he kept giving me the exact same answer no matter what I asked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina

    People often complain how they can't stand ISTjs who just won't change their minds about things! I'm the other way around. I keep complaining that people change their minds all the time. I don't understand why people around me won't just pick one opinion and stick with it. Everyone keeps giving me multiple-option answers. When I need to know something, I'll usually end up interrogating the other person, specifying the question to end up with only one solid answer. P

    My ENFj friend is just like this too, I can tell when I give her non-concrete answers, that she just wants me to assert something to her...but the thing is....she turns my concrete answers around on me so it's pretty much a defensive technique for me, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina

    People often complain how they can't stand ISTjs who just won't change their minds about things! I'm the other way around. I keep complaining that people change their minds all the time. I don't understand why people around me won't just pick one opinion and stick with it. Everyone keeps giving me multiple-option answers. When I need to know something, I'll usually end up interrogating the other person, specifying the question to end up with only one solid answer. P

    My ENFj friend is just like this too, I can tell when I give her non-concrete answers, that she just wants me to assert something to her...but the thing is....she turns my concrete answers around on me so it's pretty much a defensive technique for me, lol
    lol, yeah, I often do that too. The other person game me an answer, now I'm trying to see if she really meant it. I'll rephrase it with errors, so I can see if she'll correct me and say it the same way she did before. Also I might rephrase it correctly and give a scenario that's bad in some way to see if she'll change her mind about the answer. And then I look at the body language. It's very easy to find out when a person really knew what they're talking about or when they were just bluffing. hehe... using Fe to make sure my Ti information is correct.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Default Re: ENFj and ISTj duality

    Quote Originally Posted by onetreehilluver
    ENFj and ISTj duality seems pretty funny to me though I can see myself with and ISTj...does anyone what qualities about ENFj's attracts ISTj's?
    They are a match made in heaven. I can visualize them climbing up the corporate ladder together and enjoying the fruits of their labour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina

    People often complain how they can't stand ISTjs who just won't change their minds about things! I'm the other way around. I keep complaining that people change their minds all the time. I don't understand why people around me won't just pick one opinion and stick with it. Everyone keeps giving me multiple-option answers. When I need to know something, I'll usually end up interrogating the other person, specifying the question to end up with only one solid answer. P

    My ENFj friend is just like this too, I can tell when I give her non-concrete answers, that she just wants me to assert something to her...but the thing is....she turns my concrete answers around on me so it's pretty much a defensive technique for me, lol
    lol, yeah, I often do that too. The other person game me an answer, now I'm trying to see if she really meant it. I'll rephrase it with errors, so I can see if she'll correct me and say it the same way she did before. Also I might rephrase it correctly and give a scenario that's bad in some way to see if she'll change her mind about the answer. And then I look at the body language. It's very easy to find out when a person really knew what they're talking about or when they were just bluffing. hehe... using Fe to make sure my Ti information is correct.
    Thats it.OMG. I had a gf who was ENFJ and she used to drive me mad with stuff like that. As ENFP I assume that if someone is following my conversation and adding to it, they get the drift of what Im saying. She would later reinterpet everything I said and come up with some other meaning so she could get what she wanted and then act like thats what I meant. We would end up with the craziest arguments, like I was trying to untie all these knots that she created. I finally had to call it quits. We are much better as friends than lovers. On some level I hoped she was doing that unconsciously and not on purpose. Now you got me thinking....
    As far as ISTJ/ENFJ I think I could see how this could work out but in RL Ive only seen a few examples. Ive had ENFJ friends and even ISTJ friends and even when they were around each other they didnt seem to get along very well. Infact my ENFJ roommate would criticize the ISTJ as being too robot like and not creative or interesting. I ended up defending him Thats weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina

    People often complain how they can't stand ISTjs who just won't change their minds about things! I'm the other way around. I keep complaining that people change their minds all the time. I don't understand why people around me won't just pick one opinion and stick with it. Everyone keeps giving me multiple-option answers. When I need to know something, I'll usually end up interrogating the other person, specifying the question to end up with only one solid answer. P

    My ENFj friend is just like this too, I can tell when I give her non-concrete answers, that she just wants me to assert something to her...but the thing is....she turns my concrete answers around on me so it's pretty much a defensive technique for me, lol
    lol, yeah, I often do that too. The other person game me an answer, now I'm trying to see if she really meant it. I'll rephrase it with errors, so I can see if she'll correct me and say it the same way she did before. Also I might rephrase it correctly and give a scenario that's bad in some way to see if she'll change her mind about the answer. And then I look at the body language. It's very easy to find out when a person really knew what they're talking about or when they were just bluffing. hehe... using Fe to make sure my Ti information is correct.

    Thing is...I think I am better at reading body language and all that stuff, which makes me good at fooling people like ENFj's who are good at it, but go about it differently. So its pointless, and I just confuse her. Makes it fun though
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    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    ISTjs value Fe>Fi and need active Fe from others --

    That is to say: they crave an expressive emotional environment but aren't sure how to create it themselves; so they prefer precisely the ENFj "drama queens" who will create clear emotional environments. Also, the ISTj wants to project some sort of image onto other people and is unsure of how to do that, the ENFj takes care of that, too.

    The ISTj, on his/her own, may tend to get stuck into emotional stagnation ie some sort of depression, but not happy with that -- the ENFj gets the ISTj "moving" emotionally.
    Do you think that although duality is generally a balanced relationship, the ENFJ in this manifestation of it, tends to dominate the ISTJ. i.e. the ISTJ needs to be bossed around to fulfill his/her need to be dutiful towards his/her partner.
    ISTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
    Do you think that although duality is generally a balanced relationship, the ENFJ in this manifestation of it, tends to dominate the ISTJ. i.e. the ISTJ needs to be bossed around to fulfill his/her need to be dutiful towards his/her partner.
    In terms of emotional expression or mood, the ENFj provides the ISTj with energy, if you want to call this "dominate".

    In terms of consistence of ideas - as Kristiina described - the ENFj relies on the ISTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    it seems to me like enfjs are often more attracted to estps because they chase after power, success, and high-energy lifestyles many times. it definitely depends on the enfj i think. many enfjs that are into humanitarian sort of projects seem to be repulsed by . it seems that when enfjs get along with istjs they are the hard-working disciplined sort of istj generally. someone in management for example or a person in a "respectable" position like a judge or something. oftentimes these enfjs seem to value the structure that these people bring to their lives. i am speaking of enfj-f istj-m because that is what i have encountered for the most part

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    Default Re: ENFj and ISTj duality

    Quote Originally Posted by onetreehilluver
    ENFj and ISTj duality seems pretty funny to me though I can see myself with and ISTj...does anyone what qualities about ENFj's attracts ISTj's?
    If you are looking at quality's, that sounds more like an objective point of view.

    Like, someone well educated would probably have good quality's in the objective eyes of every type.

    But duality is about subjective feelings between types. And then education doesn't count, but the feeling that he gives you is what counts. You subcounsiously know he is protecting some part of you and somehow you think you know him/her for a long time. And somewhere you know he can be trusted 100% which will even get your feelings that he/she is a soulmate higher.

    And it really works this way, as i've been in several dual relations, and every time again it feels the same!

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    Default ISTj-ENFj duality: how do LSIs nourish EIE's Se hidden agenda?

    How does ISTJ nourish ENFJ's hidden agenda? - The need to be wealthy.

    I know that ISTJ's generally work hard but are they more effective at providing financially for their partners than other types?
    ISTj.

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    A few points --

    First, this "to be wealthy" thing is an über-oversimplification by Sergei Ganin of what it means for a type to have as 6th function or hidden agenda. A desire to be wealthy is one of its manifestations; it's not the only one, and not necessarily even the main one.

    Second, the hidden agenda is not "nourished", in the way you imply, by the duals - and certainly not if you take those minimalist descriptions.

    Third, certainly an ENFj is not, typically, waiting for someone else to give them money. ENFjs are not beggars - not all of them, anyway

    Finally, the way it does work is this -- a typical ENFj-ISTj dual pair will put some emphasis on longer-term accumulation of wealth over shorter-term enjoyment of it. In doing that together, the ENFj provides the ISTj with stimuli and a reassurance of the way things are going. The ISTj provides the ENFj with a sense of logical consistency and certainty of understanding, and a push to actually get things going.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    A few points --

    First, this "to be wealthy" thing is an über-oversimplification by Sergei Ganin of what it means for a type to have as 6th function or hidden agenda. A desire to be wealthy is one of its manifestations; it's not the only one, and not necessarily even the main one.

    Second, the hidden agenda is not "nourished", in the way you imply, by the duals - and certainly not if you take those minimalist descriptions.

    Third, certainly an ENFj is not, typically, waiting for someone else to give them money. ENFjs are not beggars - not all of them, anyway

    Finally, the way it does work is this -- a typical ENFj-ISTj dual pair will put some emphasis on longer-term accumulation of wealth over shorter-term enjoyment of it. In doing that together, the ENFj provides the ISTj with stimuli and a reassurance of the way things are going. The ISTj provides the ENFj with a sense of logical consistency and certainty of understanding, and a push to actually get things going.
    I also think that the Se creative acts as a reassurance to eventual doubts that the ENFj has in following a given path (this is usually provided by the positivist party of any given dual pair, i think)
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    Right.

    The ENFj is Taciturn-Negativist-Process
    The ISTj is Narrator-Positivist-Process

    So:

    ENFj: "what am I doing wrong?"
    ISTj: "that's what you got to do!"
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    Finally, the way it does work is this -- a typical ENFj-ISTj dual pair will put some emphasis on longer-term accumulation of wealth over shorter-term enjoyment of it. In doing that together, the ENFj provides the ISTj with stimuli and a reassurance of the way things are going. The ISTj provides the ENFj with a sense of logical consistency and certainty of understanding, and a push to actually get things going.
    i like this.

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    Both become clerics and promote religious fanaticism until a theocracy is established.

    They play the good an the bad, like with police. ISTj plays the bad role (like the first part of the bible) while the other plays the good (like in the last part).

    All cultures which had beta values ended up this way. Egypt, Israel and such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Both become clerics and promote religious fanaticism until a theocracy is established.

    They play the good an the bad, like with police. ISTj plays the bad role (like the first part of the bible) while the other plays the good (like in the last part).

    All cultures which had beta values ended up this way. Egypt, Israel and such.
    An interesting perspective
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Both become clerics and promote religious fanaticism until a theocracy is established.

    They play the good an the bad, like with police. ISTj plays the bad role (like the first part of the bible) while the other plays the good (like in the last part).

    All cultures which had beta values ended up this way. Egypt, Israel and such.
    Yeah, sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Both become clerics and promote religious fanaticism until a theocracy is established.

    They play the good an the bad, like with police. ISTj plays the bad role (like the first part of the bible) while the other plays the good (like in the last part).

    All cultures which had beta values ended up this way. Egypt, Israel and such.

    hmmm, no, I don't think so.

    They usually laugh and have a lot of fun, play jokes, etc.
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    Default LSI-EIE duality: questions for the ENFjs

    I'm a male ISTj (Ti subtype) and I got some questions for ENFj's. Myself, I prefer the Fe subtypes but ofcourse Ni subtypes can answer too. I used to date an ENFj (Fe subtype) and I'd like to get answers for the following questions:

    1. Who should decide over things?
    a) I should make the decision on my own while trying to find the best solution suitable for both of us.
    b) I should make a suggestion and ask her if she wanted to do something more or else.
    c) Saying that anything is fine for me and I'll let her decide.
    d) Your own comments?

    Own comments: This one ofcourse isn't that easy to answer to but tell me which do you prefer. Myself, I have a bit bad experiences from the c).

    2. Victimization - About ENFj's making themselves as victims.

    The ENFj I used to date (we are still very good friends) often made herself look like a victim. One time she told about her uncureable sickness she had suffered since she was 1 year old. I was almost speechless. I said I'm very sorry she had to suffer from something like that. What's the reason for making yourself as victims and how do you expect the listener to react on this? Is this a part of a larger strategy to build deeper bonds between people?

    3. Mood changes

    Our dating went very well for the first few days. After that she just announced me that it's better if we'll just stay as friends. The reason for this she said that she doesn't want to date me because she can't give me the fullest of her now and it's such a short time after she broke up with her last man who she was engaged with. The funny part here is that it was actually her who made all the initiative here in the beginning. She also warned me many that she was in a bad mood etc. Is this characteristic for all ENFj's? My god can it be frustrating.

    4. Talk topics

    Myself, I like to talk about common things which I guess makes me a bit boring. I also like to talk about deeper things but this usually requires the ENFj's initiative for the start. What kind of things do you like to talk about? The girl I used to date got very excited if I talked about my feelings or something similar. But talking about stuff like this isn't very natural for me.

    5. Initiative for dating

    How do you expect a man to make an initiative? I often make eye-contact with ENFj girls and their gaze often stops at me and they'll continue watching me even if they would be talking to someone else. Sometimes if I see a ENFj alone somewhere and I'll give her a few glances she might start smiling a lot and she can't even seem to stop it :wink:. These probably are some sort of expressions of interest. After this it's probably safe to go and talk to them, right?

    One more funny thing about the ENFj I used to date. We see each other almost every day. Even though she is now dating another man (she told me about this and I've even seen him) she constantly keeps on glancing me and shows other expressions of interest although I'm not replying to these gestures. But that only seems to make her do more of them...

    My, my, it took over 30 minutes to write this post. I hope I'll get some decent answers for it :wink:

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    PotatoSpirit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions for ENFj's

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu
    I'm a male ISTj (Ti subtype) and I got some questions for ENFj's. Myself, I prefer the Fe subtypes but ofcourse Ni subtypes can answer too. I used to date an ENFj (Fe subtype) and I'd like to get answers for the following questions:
    Can I answer too? (c:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu
    1. Who should decide over things?
    a) I should make the decision on my own while trying to find the best solution suitable for both of us.
    This one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu
    2. Victimization - About ENFj's making themselves as victims.
    What's the reason for making yourself as victims and how do you expect the listener to react on this?
    Not sure what the reason is, but cuddle them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu
    3. Mood changes
    Heh get used to it (c:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu
    4. Talk topics
    What kind of things do you like to talk about?
    They should do the talking I think, answer, ask questions, compliment them and make them laugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu
    5. Initiative for dating
    No idea, I pretty much go blindly here.
    LSI

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    Default Re: Questions for ENFj's

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu
    5. Initiative for dating
    I "dated" - or whatever - two ENFj girls, so here are my 2 cents --

    They both seemed to like the "strong, somewhat silent type who knows what he wants" who however will take the initiative in approaching them. However, they will also start conversation with a guy on occasion. I met one of the ENFj girls while on a train in Europe; she was the one who started to talk to me. But the both of us were alone in a train cabin; in such a situation I think that an ENFj will feel "the need" to get a conversation going.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Questions for ENFj's

    Ofcourse anyone can answer, as long as the discussion stays on it's track.

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    So, did you guys watch the game last night?
    LSI

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    Default Re: Questions for ENFj's

    1. Who should decide over things?
    a) I should make the decision on my own while trying to find the best solution suitable for both of us.
    b) I should make a suggestion and ask her if she wanted to do something more or else.
    c) Saying that anything is fine for me and I'll let her decide.
    d) Your own comments?
    Definitely a. Absolutely no doubt about it! c is a huge turnoff. When a guy tells me to decide, I always tell them I'm ok with anything and that they should decide. If they insist that I should decide, I immidiately write them off. Not a man in my eyes! I have a hard time respecting guys who can't take the lead in such small things as casual decisions, even if it's just a male friend. Answer b is ok I guess. At least for a little while. I'm usually pretty good at coming up with alternatives of what to do, but I have a hard time making a final decision. I get stressed over small choices like "pork or chicken. Pork is good, but I just had pork yesterday and chicken is dry but it's healthy..." I can just spend a long time coming up with a bunch of reasons why to pick either one and I would be ok with either one, but I just can't decide and then I postpone it. And then I don't eat and then I get hungry. And you don't wanna see me get hungry. I expect guys to take that burden away.
    2. Victimization - About ENFj's making themselves as victims.
    I don't really see it like making myself look like a victim. Not at all. I have inner doubts and difficulties and obstales to overcome. I have some very hard experiences in the past, which are also mine alone to overcome. Sometimes I get tired of suffering quietly on the inside, so I just sometimes talk about such things. Not that often. I just sometimes want someone to understand that I'm really trying to be brave and strong...
    3. Mood changes
    I don't have mood changes!!! Jerk!
    Ok, on a more serious note, my mood does change quite a bit. It has good and bad aspects - It's bad when I'm in a bad mood or really furious about something that's out of my control, or depressed about something that is supposed to be under my control but isn't. But it's good when I'm in a really good mood or when I have too much energy and I just really need to pull someone else into the high-energy mode. It can be a lot of fun.
    4. Talk topics
    Myself, I like to talk about common things which I guess makes me a bit boring. I also like to talk about deeper things but this usually requires the ENFj's initiative for the start. What kind of things do you like to talk about? The girl I used to date got very excited if I talked about my feelings or something similar. But talking about stuff like this isn't very natural for me.
    I have a wide selection of topics that I like. And normally it doesn't matter what we (me and anyone else) talk about, as long as it's fun. I like to talk fast and I like to have sharp conversations with many sudden laughing moments and many personal/individual references from previous conversations. Sometimes a few contemplative conversations get slow and deep, but usually I like to talk fast even about intuitive topics. Like for example, I could kill the silence by saying, "but what if God expected all people to die in the great flood because he know that we'll ruin Earth?" and I expect the other person to give a quick reply. Any reply will do. It would be good if the other person would think it's a cool topic and if we can have a serious conversation about it. btw, "dunno" does not count as a reply.
    5. Initiative for dating
    How do you expect a man to make an initiative? I often make eye-contact with ENFj girls and their gaze often stops at me and they'll continue watching me even if they would be talking to someone else. Sometimes if I see a ENFj alone somewhere and I'll give her a few glances she might start smiling a lot and she can't even seem to stop it :wink:. These probably are some sort of expressions of interest. After this it's probably safe to go and talk to them, right?
    well... I smile a lot, even when I'm not flirting. If it's a semi-stranger and I think it would be nice to know them better, I might make a casual comment about "do you know what they are buidling up there?" or "the cafeteria is open today, right?". But I wouldn't really have a conversation. Unless I was in a confined space with one other person for longer than 20 minutes. (like in Expat's example here.) It would feel awkward to ignore that they are there. And I could flirt, but I would never really approach a guy that I like. And if a guy, that I didn't notice, approaches me, then I'm likely to notice them and respect them for initiating.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu View Post
    1. Who should decide over things?
    a) I should make the decision on my own while trying to find the best
    This one.

    2. Victimization - About ENFj's making themselves as victims.
    I do that often and I'm a hypochondriac... ;p I like when somebody tells me everythings will gonna be allright or give me logic arguments that nothing is wrong with me ;p

    3. Mood changes
    All the time, but such people like ISTj can stop this mood-changing draft in my case.

    4. Talk topics
    Can't tell... everything can be interesting though ;p
    Beta extrovert from NF club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu View Post
    I'm a male ISTj (Ti subtype) and I got some questions for ENFj's. Myself, I prefer the Fe subtypes but ofcourse Ni subtypes can answer too. I used to date an ENFj (Fe subtype) and I'd like to get answers for the following questions:

    1. Who should decide over things?
    a) I should make the decision on my own while trying to find the best solution suitable for both of us.
    If I like a guy I expect him to make the decision otherwise I might reconsider my feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu View Post
    3. Mood changes

    Our dating went very well for the first few days. After that she just announced me that it's better if we'll just stay as friends. The reason for this she said that she doesn't want to date me because she can't give me the fullest of her now and it's such a short time after she broke up with her last man who she was engaged with. The funny part here is that it was actually her who made all the initiative here in the beginning. She also warned me many that she was in a bad mood etc. Is this characteristic for all ENFj's? My god can it be frustrating.
    I am very much like this. I can be so sure of my feelings and then I start to panic and I start to realize that I don't like that person but the idea of him I had. If she really is ENFj she's probably not over him and I'm sure she was interested in you but not enough to want to pursue a relationship.



    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu View Post
    4. Talk topics

    Myself, I like to talk about common things which I guess makes me a bit boring. I also like to talk about deeper things but this usually requires the ENFj's initiative for the start. What kind of things do you like to talk about? The girl I used to date got very excited if I talked about my feelings or something similar. But talking about stuff like this isn't very natural for me.
    I like to talk about any type of entertainment I'm interested in. I also like to talk about my feelings and how sad the world really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vilzu View Post
    5. Initiative for dating

    How do you expect a man to make an initiative? I often make eye-contact with ENFj girls and their gaze often stops at me and they'll continue watching me even if they would be talking to someone else. Sometimes if I see a ENFj alone somewhere and I'll give her a few glances she might start smiling a lot and she can't even seem to stop it . These probably are some sort of expressions of interest. After this it's probably safe to go and talk to them, right?

    One more funny thing about the ENFj I used to date. We see each other almost every day. Even though she is now dating another man (she told me about this and I've even seen him) she constantly keeps on glancing me and shows other expressions of interest although I'm not replying to these gestures. But that only seems to make her do more of them...
    I'm fine with the guy coming up to me or glancing my way to make it obvious. If that happens I'll walk by and slightly turn to see if he's looking back.
    ENFj Ni subtype 3w4
    "And once you lose your way you have two choices. Find the person you used to be or lose that person completely"
    formerly onetreehilluver

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    I hear that ENFJs are boring during sex.

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    I hear that ENFJs are boring during sex.
    Only way I'm not boring during sex is if you either catch me off-guard or I'm really in the mood to do it. If it's too planned and I know it's coming, and I'm not really all that into it- then yeah I'm going to be extremely boring.

    Ofcourse anyone can answer, as long as the discussion stays on it's track.
    Good. I'm not sure I'm ENFj yet totally, but I'll try to help you out anyway.

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    1. Who should decide over things?
    a) I should make the decision on my own while trying to find the best solution suitable for both of us.
    b) I should make a suggestion and ask her if she wanted to do something more or else.
    c) Saying that anything is fine for me and I'll let her decide.
    d) Your own comments?
    You need to decide! I'll assume you are my my straight male dual friend here, but even then- you need to be the decider! By nature, EIEs are bad at deciding.

    2. Victimization - About ENFj's making themselves as victims.
    I admit we do this a lot. You need to protect us and baby us in a kind of logical, laid-back way.

    3. Mood changes... (blah blah blah)
    Errrr I'm not sure. It almost sounds like she was indirectly challenging you to get angry and to do anything you could to protect her (which relates to her victim-playing too, remember). EIEs sometimes play test-your-love games like that.


    4. Talk topics

    Myself, I like to talk about common things which I guess makes me a bit boring. I also like to talk about deeper things but this usually requires the ENFj's initiative for the start. What kind of things do you like to talk about? The girl I used to date got very excited if I talked about my feelings or something similar. But talking about stuff like this isn't very natural for me.
    Work together and meet half-way? Allow her to get you to open about the paranormal, get her to be more common-ish. She secretly likes to talk about common things just like you secretly like to talk about deeper stuff, that's why you are duals. I know personally I love to talk about practical stuff like jobs/taxes but I want to make sure I'm 'set' with the person on the weird-ness too.

    5. Initiative for dating

    How do you expect a man to make an initiative? I often make eye-contact with ENFj girls and their gaze often stops at me and they'll continue watching me even if they would be talking to someone else. Sometimes if I see a ENFj alone somewhere and I'll give her a few glances she might start smiling a lot and she can't even seem to stop it . These probably are some sort of expressions of interest. After this it's probably safe to go and talk to them, right?

    One more funny thing about the ENFj I used to date. We see each other almost every day. Even though she is now dating another man (she told me about this and I've even seen him) she constantly keeps on glancing me and shows other expressions of interest although I'm not replying to these gestures. But that only seems to make her do more of them...
    I'm not sure... it depends on how often she really knows you but sounds like you're off to a great start. lol and you seem kinda cocky too, that's okay as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. =p

  37. #37
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onetreehilluver View Post
    I can be so sure of my feelings and then I start to panic and I start to realize that I don't like that person but the idea of him I had.
    I never really understood why EIE's make the distinction between the person and the idea of the person, or make the distinction between loving someone and loving the idea of someone.

    ?

    Vizlu: Just indulge the inherent sense of correctness that comes with Ti, and you should be ok with the EIE. Remember, Ti is never wrong, and as strange/illogical as that sounds, it will allow some degree of success in your circumstance.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy View Post
    I never really understood why EIE's make the distinction between the person and the idea of the person, or make the distinction between loving someone and loving the idea of someone.
    I think that's a sign of the EIE being very self-aware, honestly. It shows an understanding that the idea they have of someone may not be the same as the reality.

    This happens because the + combination is the most "internal" one you can have (as in internal dynamics of objects, and of fields). That's why Beta NFs are the most "visionary" types - for good or evil. That includes very "internal" ideas about the world, and about individuals. So just like, in politics, and "big picture" things it may lead them to pursue goals, ideals, visions, missions, whatever, that are disconnected from reality, it may also lead them to focus on the idea of a person rather than the reality.

    And that is why such types are often those that rise the highest - and often those who crash down the hardest.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I think that's a sign of the EIE being very self-aware, honestly. It shows an understanding that the idea they have of someone may not be the same as the reality.

    This happens because the + combination is the most "internal" one you can have (as in internal dynamics of objects, and of fields). That's why Beta NFs are the most "visionary" types - for good or evil. That includes very "internal" ideas about the world, and about individuals. So just like, in politics, and "big picture" things it may lead them to pursue goals, ideals, visions, missions, whatever, that are disconnected from reality, it may also lead them to focus on the idea of a person rather than the reality.

    And that is why such types are often those that rise the highest - and often those who crash down the hardest.
    Very nice explanation You have a good idea of ENFj, congratulations
    ENFj needs people who will bring them down to earth
    Beta extrovert from NF club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lastdance View Post
    Very nice explanation You have a good idea of ENFj, congratulations
    Thanks. It looks like having had some kind of relationship with 3 or 4 ENFj women helped.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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