Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: Internal/external

  1. #1
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Internal/external

    Is it me, or is this the only dichotomy in all of socionics that is impossible to make sense of?

    What separates intuition from sensation? What do feeling and intuition have in common?

    in·ter·nal /ɪnˈtɜrnl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-tur-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    –adjective
    1. situated or existing in the interior of something; interior.
    2. of, pertaining to, or noting the inside or inner part.
    3. Pharmacology. oral (def. 4).
    4. existing, occurring, or found within the limits or scope of something; intrinsic: a theory having internal logic.
    5. of or pertaining to the domestic affairs of a country: the internal politics of a nation.
    6. existing solely within the individual mind: internal malaise.
    7. coming from, produced, or motivated by the psyche or inner recesses of the mind; subjective: an internal response.
    8. Anatomy, Zoology. inner; not superficial; away from the surface or next to the axis of the body or of a part: the internal carotid artery.
    9. present or occurring within an organism or one of its parts: an internal organ.
    –noun
    10. Usually, internals. entrails; innards.
    11. an inner or intrinsic attribute.
    If information metabolism is ultimately about processing information that enters me through my senses, how can any information metabolism take place regarding information that is 'internal' to something? My senses do not perceive internal qualities, and yet, socionics claims I have the faculties to glimpse into them.

    Some divisions that I have seen used:
    Internal = latent
    External = immediate
    Internal = not-well-defined
    External = well-defined
    Internal = lacking knowledge
    External = ready knowledge

    How can we turn our intuitive understanding of these concepts into something workable?

  2. #2
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This "dichotomy" was introduced by a few socionists in the early stages to add to the logical neatness of things, but it has received no further development and is rarely mentioned. Lytov objected to my mention of it on my site, but I thought it might be valuable to some. As I see, he was right -- the confusion it causes is greater than the use it brings.

  3. #3
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,314
    Mentioned
    205 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    There is also:
    Internal: what is not visible; what aspects of reality are implied; implicit; qualified qualities
    External: what is visible; what aspects of reality are expressed; explicit; quantified qualities

    I have also suggested elsewhere that internal qualities refers to the web of connections we each have created from our experiences. If my senses tell me that a car is moving towards me at a high rate of speed, my previous experiences and web of connections let me know that it's quite possible that this car is about to run me over. Do my senses tell me the car is about to run me over? No, they just tell me that a larger than me object is moving towards me quickly. It's my internal connections that prompt me to move out of the way, whether by feeling, by words, by numbers, whatever. The associations came from within.

    Btw, I don't really see these as being confusing nor contradictory
    I see these as attempts to point at an abstract concept that hasn't been well defined yet. Just because something has not been well defined does not mean that it's not an aspect to take into consideration.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  4. #4
    Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Former USSR (global nomad)
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    2,050
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    There is also:
    Internal: what is not visible; what aspects of reality are implied; implicit; qualified quantities
    External: what is visible; what aspects of reality are expressed; explicit; quantified qualities

    Btw, I don't really see these as being confusing nor contradictory
    I see these as attempts to point at an abstract concept that hasn't been well defined yet. Just because something has not been well defined does not mean that it's not an aspect to take into consideration.
    I agree. That's pretty much how I would attempt to define them, but there is overlap with extraverted and introverted elements (how is not visible but visible, etc.).

  5. #5
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,314
    Mentioned
    205 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    There is also:
    Internal: what is not visible; what aspects of reality are implied; implicit; qualified qualities
    External: what is visible; what aspects of reality are expressed; explicit; quantified qualities

    Btw, I don't really see these as being confusing nor contradictory
    I see these as attempts to point at an abstract concept that hasn't been well defined yet. Just because something has not been well defined does not mean that it's not an aspect to take into consideration.
    I agree. That's pretty much how I would attempt to define them, but there is overlap with extraverted and introverted elements (how is not visible but visible, etc.).
    actually, the overlap comes about only when two different sets of function definitions are being used.
    when using the internal/external, Fe is an object oriented function (object oriented does not necessarily mean the object is explicit...a concept is an object too..think nouns), Si is a relationship/interdependencies oriented function

    so, for example, in drawing up a diagram, an Si can see with his/her senses the relationships between the lines/graphics/etc to get them proportionately spaced, etc. The Si is using his senses to determine the relationship. (and for those who are about to argue that the lines/graphics/etc are objects....i'm pointing to the space between those objects)

    Fe, being the internal qualities of an object/concept, the implied aspects of that object/concept, etc
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •