Why quadras work

[Expat]

Within a quadra, people have the same priorities in life, the same goals, the same ways of looking at human relationships.

Alpha: they want to enjoy the exploration of coherent ideas in a cozy emotional and sensorial atmosphere.

Beta: they want power, and admiration from people generally, while following a consistent path in the longer term in a ideologically-consistent world.

Gamma: we want to follow a path consistent in the longer term with material prosperity, efficiency, and close, constant emotional bonding with selected individuals, never deviating from our own ethical principles.

Delta: they want to enjoy material comfort and sensory well-being while exploring and maximizing the potential of other individuals.


These broad goals are the same for all types within a quadra. What is different for the types are the "tools" with which each type feels most confident in achieving those goals.

So in Gamma, for instance, let us take the INTp-ESFp dual pair.

Both the ESFp and the INTp want to achieve material property in the long term while remaining true to themselves ethically and through bonding with people. The ESFp admires and needs the INTp's "tools" in seeing the longer-term implications of present actions (otherwise the ESFp isn't sure that they're on the right track) as well as the evaluation of what's efficient and what isn't; the INTp admires and needs the ESFp's tools in terms of working hard towards those goals by connecting to people.

Ideally, your dual is someone you respect the most: they share the same goals as you, but they also seem "better" in being skilled in "tools" that you value but feel yourself sort of lacking in.

[Jonathan]

Clearly, shared values is the key.

But what makes it hard is that it's not always so easy to choose between all these equally great things. For example, I love to explore ideas and to have a comfortable environment. I would also like to have power so I could put my ideas in practice. Also, although I don't really like to admit it, I like admiration. And, although I'm not particularly materialistic, I would like to have financial freedom so I can do whatever I want and not have to worry about money. Also, I enjoy helping other people and would like to see other people's dreams realized too (though I suspect that the impression that Deltas are much more selfless than the quadras is the result of an imbalance in wording).

...And, I appreciate people who can help me do all these things and have all these great values...

[Raver]

Delta: they want to enjoy material comfort and sensory well-being while exploring and maximizing the potential of other individuals.

I disagree with this one partially. The sensory well-being part is accurate, but the material comfort is incorrect. Also, It's more about maximizing the potential of yourself and those close to you.

This could be a little off, but it was just an attempt.

Ideally, your dual is someone you respect the most: they share the same goals as you, but they also seem "better" in being skilled in "tools" that you value but feel yourself sort of lacking in.

I agree and this is why duals appear so different in the surface, but get along very well. It's almost as if the dual strengthens the weaknesses of the other.

[Republicus]

Those descriptions could be true for anybody.

[Jonathan]

Those descriptions could be true for anybody.

I also think they're basically myths. The Gamma description suggests that Gammas are materialists, out primarily to make money. I know a number of Gamma types who aren't like that at all.

Also, the idea that Alphas are the only ones who put a lot of value in discussing ideas is clearly false....same goes with the idea that only Alphas and Deltas care for comfort. I guess everyone else should sleep on the floor with pillows made out of cardboard. It would be a lot cheaper and more efficient than down.

[ncassidy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

[Kristiina]

Beta: they want power, and admiration from people generally, while following a consistent path in the longer term in a ideologically-consistent world.

...

Ideally, your dual is someone you respect the most: they share the same goals as you, but they also seem "better" in being skilled in "tools" that you value but feel yourself sort of lacking in.

Makes sense in my case. The goals are broadly correct and I think I need the functions of my dual type to reach those goals. ISTj has the skills needed to fulfill my dreams.

I think that all people should try their best to be all that they can be (you can call it wanting power). If a person hasn't got too far in life, I assume they tried and failed and it's difficult for me to think that they never even tried. How to get what you could achieve - you have to visualize the goal and see what you have to do to get it. I'm good at seeing the goal and when I have all the information that I need, I'm good at saying what more should be done. I just wish I had more information. What usually stops me (or slows me down) is when I don't know the important details to plan my route to success or when I get discouraged by minor setbacks. What a coincidence that my dual is the kind of person who knows all about all sorts of tiny procedures and details in everyday world and who isn't concerned with minor chances and setbacks.

I have thought that success would be guaranteed for me, if it wasn't for my poor skills in system thinking ! (using Fe to understand science is tricky and often a totally unappreciated skill). If I had my current skills and very good system thinking, I'd just need to be able to naturally convince other people that I should be taken seriously. I need to be more forceful in a non-offencive non-emotional way. !

[ncassidy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNjzgmr6UFo

[Jonathan]

BTW, I don't to mean to seem negative about this idea. I'm just highly skeptical of the standard quadra values descriptions. I had a post with a quadra values test quite a while ago. But the standard ones seem to miss the point, I think.

However, I still think this idea is pretty good if seen this way: Why not circumvent Socionics all together? Instead, to see if you're compatible with someone, ask them how they rank various priorities: Money, interesting conversation, comfortable surroundings, etc. I suppose in a way that's more important than knowing what type someone is.

[Republicus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNjzgmr6UFo

So what you're saying is that nucleic acid is brazillian?

[ncassidy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNjzgmr6UFo

So what you're saying is that nucleic acid is brazillian?

Nah. I'm just saying... "GTP!"

[Megan]

Is it possible to not identify much with the types in your own quadra?

[Slava]

Is it possible to not identify much with the types in your own quadra?

Depends on how much of your soul you sold, vs them.

[FDG]

Clearly, shared values is the key.

But what makes it hard is that it's not always so easy to choose between all these equally great things. For example, I love to explore ideas and to have a comfortable environment. I would also like to have power so I could put my ideas in practice. Also, although I don't really like to admit it, I like admiration. And, although I'm not particularly materialistic, I would like to have financial freedom so I can do whatever I want and not have to worry about money. Also, I enjoy helping other people and would like to see other people's dreams realized too (though I suspect that the impression that Deltas are much more selfless than the quadras is the result of an imbalance in wording).

...And, I appreciate people who can help me do all these things and have all these great values...

I can't help but agreeing.

[Gilly]

Anyone who claims that Socionics descriptions are subject to the Forer Affect has both a simplistic view of socionics and, most likely, a terrible way of implimenting or testing their own system for determining type.

[niveK]

Anyone who claims that Socionics descriptions are subject to the Forer Affect has both a simplistic view of socionics and, most likely, a terrible way of implimenting or testing their own system for determining type.

Of course claiming descriptions are subject to the Forer effect would be silly. Descriptions aren't sapient and can't feel that some generic description applies specifically to them. People are subject to the Forer effect. Descriptions may just make use of the Forer effect.

Rick posted a Forer-styled socionic type description on his site once. I wish I could find it again.

[Gilly]

Anyone who claims that Socionics descriptions are subject to the Forer Affect has both a simplistic view of socionics and, most likely, a terrible way of implimenting or testing their own system for determining type.

Of course claiming descriptions are subject to the Forer effect would be silly. Descriptions aren't sapient and can't feel that some generic description applies specifically to them. People are subject to the Forer effect. Descriptions may just make use of the Forer effect.

Rick posted a Forer-styled socionic type description on his site once. I wish I could find it again.

You're being retarded and syntactically nit picky. Go shove your head in the sand somewhere else, you retentive virgin.

[niveK]

Anyone who claims that Socionics descriptions are subject to the Forer Affect has both a simplistic view of socionics and, most likely, a terrible way of implimenting or testing their own system for determining type.

Of course claiming descriptions are subject to the Forer effect would be silly. Descriptions aren't sapient and can't feel that some generic description applies specifically to them. People are subject to the Forer effect. Descriptions may just make use of the Forer effect.

Rick posted a Forer-styled socionic type description on his site once. I wish I could find it again.

You're being retarded and nit picky. Go shove your head in the sand somewhere else.

Hmm. Someone's a bit touchy. Mild bit of picking and he gets defensive. I didn't realize you'd be so emotionally hurt over such a mild statement. My apologies.

[Gilly]

You missed the last part. I felt like being more of an asshole.


The point is that you knew what I meant, and still felt the need to make yourself look smart by pointing out my syntax error.

[niveK]

You missed the last part. I felt like being more of an asshole.


The point is that you knew what I meant, and still felt the need to make yourself look smart by pointing out my syntax error.

Whatever. I fear I've misled and given the impression that I give a damn.

Now, back to the Forer effect. If I recall properly, Rick used the example type description to show how many socionics descriptions had been making use of the Forer effect.

One of the points I had intended to make is that the Forer effect isn't an occasional appearance. It affects all humans at all times. To say that socionics descriptions are free of the Forer effect and other subjective misleadings would be a mistake. People can be pretty creative about making descriptions fit them uniquely, whether it's true or not.

On a side and somewhat related note, a study recently showed a link between astrological signs and diseases. The lesson: Patterns can often be found even if causality isn't actually there. The link isn't showing on my RSS reader (actually, the personalized Google homepage) at the moment, but I'll try to provide the link soon.

[niveK]

Regarding the astrology/disease study:

http://blog.wired.com/biotech/2007/0...h_yo.html#more Wired Blog Link

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-coh021507.php Press release for actual study

[Jonathan]

Anyone who claims that Socionics descriptions are subject to the Forer Affect has both a simplistic view of socionics and, most likely, a terrible way of implimenting or testing their own system for determining type.

I think the issue is that the quadra descriptions are a bit simplistic, and hence more susceptible to the Forer effect than a more complete Socionics understanding.

[Expat]

I think the issue is that the quadra descriptions are a bit simplistic, and hence more susceptible to the Forer effect than a more complete Socionics understanding.

Simplistic, yes, in the sense that if even a full description of one type is necessary simplistic, of course that will be the case for a small description of one quadra.

But that is not what you said before:

Those descriptions could be true for anybody.

I also think they're basically myths. The Gamma description suggests that Gammas are materialists, out primarily to make money. I know a number of Gamma types who aren't like that at all.

Also, the idea that Alphas are the only ones who put a lot of value in discussing ideas is clearly false....same goes with the idea that only Alphas and Deltas care for comfort. I guess everyone else should sleep on the floor with pillows made out of cardboard. It would be a lot cheaper and more efficient than down.

My own descriptions are surely not the best ones, but if you call the idea of shared quadra goals and priorities (and different between quadras) "myths", then you haven't understood it.

The kind of argument you make later is also a bit odd, with your "only ones" -- you're making a straw man argument. Who ever said that about "only ones" caring about this and that? It's nonsensical.

You could also say that the ISFp descriptions are "myths" since they are not the "only ones" who enjoy good food.

Anyone who claims that Socionics descriptions are subject to the Forer Affect has both a simplistic view of socionics and, most likely, a terrible way of implimenting or testing their own system for determining type.

Exactly.

[anndelise]

You could also say that the ISFp descriptions are "myths" since they are not the "only ones" who enjoy good food.

this IS a myth.
it's the kind of stuff some people have been arguing against.
"good food" is not an isfp thing, it's not even an Si thing
if there are multiple exceptions to a "rule", then that rule needs some changing.
if there are multiple exceptions to a description, then that particular description needs to be changed or doesn't belong

but i think a lot of this comes down to how people (maybe types) categorize

[ncassidy]

Of course they're subject to the Forer effect. The Forer effect says nothing about comparisons between multiple descriptions. Once someone has "chosen" a type, a process which is basically immune to the Forer effect, their further actions can easily be shown to be motivated in part by a desire to conform to that type, which is of course "tailored specifically for them".

You just have to take a look at the statements some forum members put down here in defence of their type. Or for that matter, in defence of Socionics, which they feel perfectly describes their actions, and they just "don't understand the full workings of it" yet.

I refuse to single anyone out by providing examples: you can easily find your own if you have any concern for objectivity.

Not to mention the fact that questioning someone's self-typing on this board is something people will deliberately state they are not doing, to avoid confrontation over any perceived attempt to introduce cognitive dissonance into the mind of the person being "attacked". I have encountered an MBTI INTP in real life who goes on and on about how he's a textbook INTP and gets downright angry when I ask pointed questions.

It applies to everyone, until you accept that it does.

[Expat]

You could also say that the ISFp descriptions are "myths" since they are not the "only ones" who enjoy good food.

this IS a myth.
it's the kind of stuff some people have been arguing against.
"good food" is not an isfp thing, it's not even an Si thing

Yes, but I'm not sure that you got my point.

[Jonathan]

My own descriptions are surely not the best ones, but if you call the idea of shared quadra goals and priorities (and different between quadras) "myths", then you haven't understood it.

Oh, I didn't say that the idea of shared quadra goals and priorities is a myth. On the contrary, I said that shared values is the key, and that possibly coming up with a list of value priorities may be more valuable for people to understand their compatibility than even knowing what type they are.

It's the wording that I objected to...and not your wording or your way of putting it; these are standard quadra descriptions. I liked your idea; just the specific descriptions are problemmatic to me.

Clearly quadras involve shared values. The question is, what values are shared and mainly unique to each quadra? I had a post somewhere where I tried to come up with better descriptions. I'll have to look for it. I think the key is to focus on shared values based on the orientation of each base function.

I think the potential problems with the standard quadra descriptions can be best understood as relating to the contrast between structural and content descriptions of types. When we focus on structural definitions, then we admit that content can vary widely. People who focus on structural definitions say things like "any type could be an intellectual" or "any type could be interested in anything." The more content-oriented definitions tend to have the message "No, if one is interested in intellectual things first and foremost, that is Alpha. If one is Gamma, one is a materialist"...and so on.

The quadra definitions tend to take the content approach. That doesn't mean it's incorrect...it may very well be correct. But it does seem conflict with what people feel they are from a structural point of view.

Perhaps each person has at least two types...a structural type, and a content type...and perhaps these two may sometimes be the same and other times diverge. For example, maybe we should say things like "I'm an ILI-structural (how I think) and an ILE-content (what I'm interested in)."

Here's an interesting comparison: ILI and SLI.
By quadra values: ILI is supposedly more materialistic and efficient. SLI seeks physical comfort and helping others realizing their potential

But in reality, it's more likely the reverse: ILI is less materialistic because ILI's focus is on ideas, not things. (SLI is more likely to want to buy a sports car and motorcycle). Working together, SLI will always seem more focused on efficiency, whereas ILI's ideas will tend to lead away from efficiency toward trying to do things better. I don't see that SLI is any more into helping people realize their potential than ILI; ILIs sometimes like to be teachers and help people reach their intellectual potential. As to seeking comfort, ILI needs more comfort because of weak S; SLI is confident in the S area, and therefore less bothered by uncomfortable seats, loud noises, and perceived physical dangers.

Anyhow, I wasn't criticizing your ideas, just the standard quadra descriptions...or actually not criticizing as much as pointing out that they conflict with other aspects of Socionics.

[Expat]

You're using the word "materialistic" when you actually mean "consumeristic". You are saying that those quadra descriptions say that Gammas are "materialistic", and then you argue that that's wrong, saying that they are not, but actually arguing that they are not "consumeristic". That is, a straw man argument -- you address not what socionics really says, but your erroneous interpretation.

The two Ni quadras - Beta and Gamma - tend to focus more on the longer term than the two Si quadras, Alpha and Delta. That's what the "materialistic" bit in Gamma is about; a focus on longer-term prosperity rather than short-term comfort; so it's anti-"materialistic" as per your definition.

Therefore, what you wrote about SLI and ILI buying or not a motorbike, etc, rather than being a case against those quadra themes, it's a case for it.

So the problem is not the descriptions, it's your erroneous interpretation.

[FDG]

Yes Johnny, you are being a Very Bad Child here. Strawman! It's spanking time

/me spanks Johnny

[Gilly]

Of course they're subject to the Forer effect.

Not with proper consideration of what types REALLY are and a fair understanding of socionics. If you're actively lying to yourself, then sure, it's possible. But I don't think that a person to whom types and their implications are explained correctly would have any problem picking his/her type among others.

[Jonathan]

You're using the word "materialistic" when you actually mean "consumeristic". You are saying that those quadra descriptions say that Gammas are "materialistic", and then you argue that that's wrong, saying that they are not, but actually arguing that they are not "consumeristic". That is, a straw man argument -- you address not what socionics really says, but your erroneous interpretation.

The two Ni quadras - Beta and Gamma - tend to focus more on the longer term than the two Si quadras, Alpha and Delta. That's what the "materialistic" bit in Gamma is about; a focus on longer-term prosperity rather than short-term comfort; so it's anti-"materialistic" as per your definition.

Therefore, what you wrote about SLI and ILI buying or not a motorbike, etc, rather than being a case against those quadra themes, it's a case for it.

So the problem is not the descriptions, it's your erroneous interpretation.

Well, sorry, I read "material prosperity" and thought you meant a focus on material posessions being important vs. other things. But your explanation makes more sense.

I think it's common to confuse within the word "materialism" both a value on money/possessions and consumerism.

I think you make a good case that when dealing with money matters, Gammas may be more inclined to think long-term.

Of course, that doesn't mean that money is necessarily given a high priority for someone who's Gamma (in comparison to other quadras). But I see how two people who are Gammas and value long-term considerations might do better when discussing money matters than, say, one person who values long-term considerations and someone else who does not. I guess that's where the shared values thing comes in.

Perhaps if I saw your functional explanations for the values listed, they'd make more sense to me.

[mikemex]

Beta: they want power...

Musolini, ******, Stanlin, Pol-Pot, Mao... it seems to me that this quadra strives to destroy the world to allow their duals (like Gandhi) to rebuild it.

Not a safe playground for children, if you ask me.

[oakey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNjzgmr6UFo

IF I had one word to describe that I would say "itchy"

IF I had two words i would say "ACID bad".

[Expat]

Beta: they want power...

Musolini, ******, Stanlin, Pol-Pot, Mao... it seems to me that this quadra strives to destroy the world to allow their duals (like Gandhi) to rebuild it.

Not a safe playground for children, if you ask me.

Regardless of whether you are joking or not, I will explain.

Beta doesn't - not even those individuals in particular - want to "destroy" the world, they want to re-shape it.

Which is precisely what Gandhi - and Mandela, another Beta IMO - were aiming at.

[Expat]

Well, sorry, I read "material prosperity" and thought you meant a focus on material posessions being important vs. other things. But your explanation makes more sense.

"Long-term material prosperity" has to do with having investments, a valuable house, etc etc; it has nothing to do with having a cool motorbike.

However, I can see how someone who values a cool motorbike (in the sense of spending a high proportion of their incomes to buy it) would not see that as "consumerism", but rather "having fun", "living for the moment", "not being tight-ass", "allowing yourself a few pleasures" etc, and call those who focus on longer-term prosperity "materialistic".

[FDG]

Beta: they want power...

Musolini, ******, Stanlin, Pol-Pot, Mao... it seems to me that this quadra strives to destroy the world to allow their duals (like Gandhi) to rebuild it.

Not a safe playground for children, if you ask me.

The threads of global fabric are untied
The role of the western free world is in decline
Still free to consume, free to breathe
Free to exist, free to dream, your life of dreams

Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
One day maybe, keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you...

Consumer or consumed, your life is cheap
Economic salvation in sweatshops returned from the east
Despair the only quality of strife
A reason for existence if you can afford the price,
If your price is right

Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
One day maybe, keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you...

Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
One day maybe, keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you...

Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
One day maybe, keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you...

Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
One day maybe, keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you...

Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
One day maybe, keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you...

Keep on rotting, keep on hoping, keep on dreaming
Keep on rotting, keep on hoping
Whilst in the real world you...
...Rot!!!!!

[Expat]

Perhaps if I saw your functional explanations for the values listed, they'd make more sense to me.

You can see a lot here, in Rick's site:

http://www.socionics.us/theory/quadras.shtml

But here it goes:

Alpha: they want to enjoy the exploration of coherent ideas in a cozy emotional and sensorial atmosphere.

Cozy emotional and sensorial atmosphere - the + block
Exploration of coherent ideas - the + block

Beta: they want power, and admiration from people generally, while following a consistent path in the longer term in a ideologically-consistent world.

Admiration from people, as in people being emotionally positive (ie not hostile) in the longer term: the + block
Power and consistent ideology: the + block

My description above mixed them a bit, but I also think that that's how it works, too.

Gamma: we want to follow a path consistent in the longer term with material prosperity, efficiency, and close, constant emotional bonding with selected individuals, never deviating from our own ethical principles.

Longer-term material prosperity: the + block
Bonding and ethical principles: the + block

Where this latter block is also connected to a general forcefulness and cooperation in achieving the aims.

Delta: they want to enjoy material comfort and sensory well-being while exploring and maximizing the potential of other individuals.

Material comfort and sensory well-being: + block
Exploring and maximizing the potential of other individuals: + block

All the types within a quadra share the same broad objectives, but they aren't comfortable with how to go about for all of them.

[Expat]

Is it possible to not identify much with the types in your own quadra?

First I'd suggest that you're looking at it the wrong way.

[Jonathan]

You can see a lot here, in Rick's site:

http://www.socionics.us/theory/quadras.shtml

Yeah, I remember that page, the one where Gamma is associated with rowdiness, loud humor, and "Trading jokes on materialistic topics (money, sex, winning and losing). Rowdiness and drivenness." (Yuck!)

In Rick's descriptions there, I identify mostly with the Alpha descriptions, and also somewhat with the first half of Beta ("This quadra encourages dramatic self-expression with elements of theatricism and melodrama. They enjoy finding artistic means to express romantic, abstract ideals and feelings").

To be Alpha, though, I need to be either j or extravert or S.

Who knows...I just don't fit into any of this.

[Expat]

To be Alpha, though, I need to be either j or extravert or S.

Who knows...I just don't fit into any of this.

From what you just said, you'd have to be Alpha or Beta -- "melodramatic self-expression"?