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Thread: Function descriptions by duals&conflictors

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    Default Function descriptions by duals&conflictors

    I thought about it before, maybe even mentioned it. But Expat's asking LII's about Fe dual seeking reminded me:


    • ISFp + ISTp & ISTj + ISFj - What is Ne to you?
    • ESFp + ESTp & ESTj + ESFj - What is Ni to you?
    • INTp + INFp & INFj + INTj - What is Se to you?
    • ENTp + ENFp & ENFj + ENTj - What is Si to you?
    • ISTj + INTj & INTp + ISTp - What is Fe to you?
    • ESTj + ENTj & ENTp + ESTp - What is Fi to you?
    • ISFj + INFj & INFp + ISFp - What is Te to you?
    • ESFj + ENFj & ENFp + ESFp - What is Ti to you?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    .... alright....


    for duals,

    what does your dual seeking function represent for you? How does your dual use your dual-seeking function? What is appealing about that for you?


    and for conflicting relations, describe how that opposing function sets you the wrong way.



    etc etc.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    .... what is Te though?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    INTp
    sx/sp

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    I would assume a dual would be sensitive to the dual seeking function


    how does your dual use it in a way that you like?
    What is an example of someone who doesn't use it very well, etc.


    I can differentiate very well, because I am very sensitive to it - that is not so for other's dual functions?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    How about this:


    "Analyze the appropriate function"

    Each type should have their own view on the function in question, so describe how you view that function, and how it is used. How it affects you.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    .... what is Te though?
    In a dialogue - or dialect as Diana said - very simplistically, Te and Ti are:

    - Te: the amount of information exchanged is more important than the certainty attributed to any conclusions and statements

    - Ti: the certainty attributed to conclusions and statements is more important than the amount of information exchanged

    Point that should be unnecessary: of course Ti types also give explanations, and Te types also arrive at conclusions -- it's a question of which one is more important.

    Examples:

    - Ti in superid (EXFjs and IXFps) reacting to Te: "don't be so wishy-washy, don't bore me with all this unnecessary bla-bla, just answer my question and tell me what you think I should do!"

    - Te in superid (EXFps and IXFjs) reacting to Ti: "and how did you get at this odd conclusion? You just expect me to take your word for it?"
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    - focusing on small details rather than the big picture and longer-term implications. Concern with unpleasant immediate surroundings, which in the bigger scheme of things are of no importance.

    - we focus on understanding what each other is really feeling rather than on keeping each other on a pleasant mood or comfortable socially. Harsh truth over pleasant words.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    .... what is Te though?
    In a dialogue - or dialect as Diana said - very simplistically, Te and Ti are:

    - Te: the amount of information exchanged is more important than the certainty attributed to any conclusions and statements

    - Ti: the certainty attributed to conclusions and statements is more important than the amount of information exchanged

    Point that should be unnecessary: of course Ti types also give explanations, and Te types also arrive at conclusions -- it's a question of which one is more important.

    Examples:

    - Ti in superid (EXFjs and IXFps) reacting to Te: "don't be so wishy-washy, don't bore me with all this unnecessary bla-bla, just answer my question and tell me what you think I should do!"

    - Te in superid (EXFps and IXFjs) reacting to Ti: "and how did you get at this odd conclusion? You just expect me to take your word for it?"
    I must be misunderstanding this...The definition of Te above seems to be like saying "It's more important to say a lot than for any of it to be true."

    One thing I really hate is when people try to convince others based on a large quantity of really bad arguments, as if 10 bad arguments is as good as one good argument. Are you saying that this is typical Te behavior? Surely this isn't what you mean...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I must be misunderstanding this...The definition of Te above seems to be like saying "It's more important to say a lot than for any of it to be true."

    One thing I really hate is when people try to convince others based on a large quantity of really bad arguments, as if 10 bad arguments is as good as one good argument. Are you saying that this is typical Te behavior? Surely this isn't what you mean...
    Of course it isn't what I mean, and it's not what I'm saying either.

    It's not "It's more important to say a lot than for any of it to be true.", but "it's more important to provide the data than a conclusion based on them".

    EDIT: Jonathan, you have mistaken "certainty" for "accuracy" or "truthfulness". With "certainty" I meant a "I know I am right" attitude, which is different from being right.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Well so far so good. I thought Mea said something good the first time, but it has been changed, and I don't really remember it. So I don't know.


    for now,


    - Complete certainty about the present moment. I respect Se because I wish I could have more of it, and even now when I am in public it is just a farce really. Ne's massive scope on things makes real Se quite hard to come by. It is just found in facts or temporary advantages, often physically so. Whereas I cannot avoid that in 100 years I'll be dead, so I'd rather invest in long term things, Se seems more like someone who would rather physically acquire stability and power, right now, with any means necessary. ((Ultimately I feel like I want the same thing as Se, I just think Se can be too far to one extreme (Se in rational introverts, even), and I know Ne can be too far to the other extreme))

    Like the 'original' descriptions of the first emperor of China, who was fascinated with living forever. (The original descriptions were more biased than objective)

    Se also seems inherently aristocratic.




    (PS: your descriptions, Expat, make it easy to see connections between ISFj + ENTj duality, especially with the gamma Te descriptions )
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I'll uh... just do Gamma. I can't be on for long so I'm just going to post what comes to the top of me head.

    Te: It's seeing what's going on and the most practical way to do things. It represents usefulness.
    Se: It's seeing the characteristics of what's there and actually getting stuff done. Te sees what needs to be done and Se provides the power to do it. It recognizes and utilizes resources.
    Fi: It's knowing what and who one likes and dislikes and what one morally values. For me it's primarily about building and maintaining relationships with loved ones. Te is great and all but what would be the point in knowing the point if no one is sharing your life with you and building a family (no matter how small)? What would be the point in a couple's knowing the most practical way of doing things if there aren't established values to use to set and measure end results?
    Ni: It's seeing cause and effect relationships and the timing involved. If life is a journey, Te would be the processes at work in the form of transportation. Se would be what powers the transportation. Fi would be about who you're traveling with, who you'll enjoy your destination with, and what it is about a destination that makes you want to go there in the first place. Ni pulls it all together. Ni knows when to stop for fuel, not to take a certain route because the traffic will be awful, not to set a certain destination because tourists or weather make that place to that it doesn't meet Fi's values that time of the year, etc.

    (In all honesty, it's a little difficult for me to see where Te ends and Ni begins, and vice versa. When I talk about one I often end up touching on the other. In writing my journey example I found myself changing the Ni part a few times because I was thinking, "No, that's Te, too" and then I said fuck it, I don't have time this. )

    Ne: It's seeing possibilities. That's nice and an important thing to be able to do... what's the point though if you're not going to focus your efforts to accomplish something? Direction is too important to keep coming up with all sorts of endless possibilities.
    Fe: It's seeing emotional reactions and understanding group values. That group is often society. Fe is the glue that holds communities together. It needs to read and express emotional reactions because it's how it determines what people want/how people feel, and all of these people make up the group. I understand that Fe is important to human safety and progress... but I care about my loved ones' individual relationships and individual values FAR more than I care about emotional atmosphere. For example... telling me that I should or shouldn't do something because it goes against social norms, meaning that it will upset a number of random people in a group on a superficial level (because it goes against the rules they've decided on to keep people superficially comfortable and things running smoothly as a result), is a good way to greatly irritate me. Fuck social expectations.
    Ti: It's seeing order. Ti sees data in a structured manner, everything fitting into a place in the structure. Because data exists in a system, each piece of data is dependent upon others which are dependent upon others... while this is undoubtedly important to humanity as a whole because these systems are necessary in order to build and understand anything complex, I'd rather let others worry about it. They can sit around building systems of data all they want... I'll just take from it what data I need. If I need to understand part of the system in order to use that data, that's fine. I have no problem with that at all, but I don't generally desire to understand any more of the system than I need to in order to accomplish my objectives. (The only time Ti irritates me is when there's Se involved... system + power = hierarchy. Again, this is something that's necessary to humanity, but I dislike being told what I should and shouldn't do based solely on a system that I simply do not care about.)
    Si: It's about inner physical state of being. I don't have much to complain about here. Others can be as Si as they want, as long as they don't hold any expectations of me. Just don't hassle me about your Si or mine.
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    Te: working for nothing
    Ti: talking out of one's ass
    Se: being the coolest beings alive, but being asses while being it
    Ne: trying to be as cool, succeding eventually, by doing strange things
    Fe: recognizing who's cool, and who's not
    Fi: telling people what to do
    Si: sitting on the couch doing nothing
    Ni: talking about bullshit, convicing everybody that it's actually true, then sitting on the couch seeing other people doing stuff
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Fi: telling people what to do


    That's funny, especially since that's how I see Fe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Ti: It's seeing order. Ti sees the world in a structured manner, everything fitting into a place in the structure. Because data exists in a system, each piece of data is dependent upon others which are dependent upon others... while this is undoubtedly important to humanity as a whole because these systems are necessary in order to build and understand anything complex, I'd rather let others worry about it. They can sit around building systems of data all they want... I'll just take from it what data I need. If I need to understand part of the system in order to use that data, that's fine. I have no problem with that at all, but I don't generally desire to understand any more of the system than I need to in order to accomplish my objectives. (The only time Ti irritates me is when there's Se involved... system + power = hierarchy. Again, this is something that's necessary to humanity, but I dislike being told what I should and shouldn't do based solely on a system that I simply do not care about.)
    Really, this is more about Ti dominance. ExTps are probably just as chaotic as ExFps in their lives, they just like to sound like they have their shit toghether by being logical, but then they proceed acting like a complete mess
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Fi: telling people what to do


    That's funny, especially since that's how I see Fe.
    Fe is more like, do this because it's what is acceptable, you're gonna be rewarded with love and admiration if you do it

    Fi to me feels like, do this because it's your duty towards your family,people, etc etc blah blah

    Oh, on Ne and possibilityies - Ne types actually act upon those possibilities, what they lack is path-consistency
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Te: working for nothing
    Ti: talking out of one's ass
    Se: being the coolest beings alive, but being asses while being it
    Ne: trying to be as cool, succeding eventually, by doing strange things
    Fe: recognizing who's cool, and who's not
    Fi: telling people what to do
    Si: sitting on the couch doing nothing
    Ni: talking about bullshit, convicing everybody that it's actually true, then sitting on the couch seeing other people doing stuff
    I like most of them, except Fi --


    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Fe is more like, do this because it's what is acceptable, you're gonna be rewarded with love and admiration if you do it

    Fi to me feels like, do this because it's your duty towards your family,people, etc etc blah blah
    This "duty" thing is more Fi as a role function, that's how IXTjs see it. Although perhaps a Fi person might phrase it that way when presenting it to non-Fi people.

    For Fi people, doing something for a friend, a family member, a loved one -- it's just what you do, because you'll feel like shit if you don't, as if you were harming yourself rather than someone else.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Ti: It's seeing order. Ti sees the world in a structured manner, everything fitting into a place in the structure. Because data exists in a system, each piece of data is dependent upon others which are dependent upon others... while this is undoubtedly important to humanity as a whole because these systems are necessary in order to build and understand anything complex, I'd rather let others worry about it. They can sit around building systems of data all they want... I'll just take from it what data I need. If I need to understand part of the system in order to use that data, that's fine. I have no problem with that at all, but I don't generally desire to understand any more of the system than I need to in order to accomplish my objectives. (The only time Ti irritates me is when there's Se involved... system + power = hierarchy. Again, this is something that's necessary to humanity, but I dislike being told what I should and shouldn't do based solely on a system that I simply do not care about.)
    Really, this is more about Ti dominance. ExTps are probably just as chaotic as ExFps in their lives, they just like to sound like they have their shit toghether by being logical, but then they proceed acting like a complete mess
    Yeah, I was trying to focus on just Ti itself... and I kept having to remind myself not to focus on ISTjs in writing the description. I get along with Ti dominants well (in fact, better than Ti creative types, for the most part), but I see INTjs as lacking in accomplishment and ISTjs as too rigid and stubborn, and hierarchy annoys me a lot.

    I do think ExTps are like that too, though. They may use their dominant function to build and change their systems, but the systems are still there regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Fe is more like, do this because it's what is acceptable, you're gonna be rewarded with love and admiration if you do it
    And I care about admiration why?

    Fi to me feels like, do this because it's your duty towards your family,people, etc etc blah blah
    I dunno, that still sounds sorta Fe to me. It sounds totally Fe if you take out "family". "Duty" strikes me as an XSTj thing primarily, at least in the context I think of the word. But I don't have a Fi PoLR and/or a Fi dominant mother.

    Oh, on Ne and possibilityies - Ne types actually act upon those possibilities, what they lack is path-consistency
    Direction and long term goals are infinitely valuable to me. What is the point in activity without accomplishment? (Absolutely none, in my mind.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Te: working for nothing
    Ti: talking out of one's ass
    Se: being the coolest beings alive, but being asses while being it
    Ne: trying to be as cool, succeding eventually, by doing strange things
    Fe: recognizing who's cool, and who's not
    Fi: telling people what to do
    Si: sitting on the couch doing nothing
    Ni: talking about bullshit, convicing everybody that it's actually true, then sitting on the couch seeing other people doing stuff
    I like most of them, except Fi --


    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Fe is more like, do this because it's what is acceptable, you're gonna be rewarded with love and admiration if you do it

    Fi to me feels like, do this because it's your duty towards your family,people, etc etc blah blah
    This "duty" thing is more Fi as a role function, that's how IXTjs see it. Although perhaps a Fi person might phrase it that way when presenting it to non-Fi people.

    For Fi people, doing something for a friend, a family member, a loved one -- it's just what you do, because you'll feel like shit if you don't, as if you were harming yourself rather than someone else.
    I understand their point of wiev really, that's just the way it feels to me, not necessarily the truth behind it

    do think ExTps are like that too, though. They may use their dominant function to build and change their systems, but the systems are still there regardless.
    Dunno Joy, I've had endless arguments with ISTjs in that regard. Systems in my mind are there to accomplish stuff, not for the sake of its existence, so if they don't, throw them away. For an EP there's first Pe then Ji so first we perceive just things as they are then maybe organize them, whereas Ji dominants try to modify reality/ideas to make them fit their model.

    And I care about admiration why?
    Not you really, just me. I don't know why, but it feels good, probably that's the best answer I can give.

    I dunno, that still sounds sorta Fe to me. It sounds totally Fe if you take out "family". "Duty" strikes me as an XSTj thing primarily, at least in the context I think of the word. But I don't have a Fi PoLR and/or a Fi dominant mother.
    Again, maybe Fe feels like that to you, and Fi feels like that to me - since you naturally concentrate on Fi stuff and ignore Fe stuff, then Fe types are more likely to throw shit at you, and the opposite applies for Fi types @ me.

    Direction and long term goals are infinitely valuable to me. What is the point in activity without accomplishment? (Absolutely none, in my mind.)
    Just having fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    For an EP there's first Pe then Ji so first we perceive just things as they are then maybe organize them, whereas Ji dominants try to modify reality/ideas to make them fit their model.
    This is true. I still think that this applies to ExTps though: "It's seeing order. Ti sees the world in a structured manner, everything fitting into a place in the structure. Because data exists in a system, each piece of data is dependent upon others which are dependent upon others." (I'll change "the world" to "data" though. It's more accurate.)
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    I like those.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Yes, very good
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