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Thread: Ni

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    eunice's Avatar
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    I guess this is a pretty old question: what is exactly the Ni function about? How is it manifested in people's actions and conversations? Examples are welcomed.

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    i will be annoying and paste from jung on "the introverted intuitive type".

    The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and -- in the case of a productive artist-the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle. [p. 509]

    If an artist, he reveals extraordinary, remote things in his art, which in iridescent profusion embrace both the significant and the banal, the lovely and the grotesque, the whimsical and the sublime. If not an artist, he is frequently an unappreciated genius, a great man 'gone wrong', a sort of wise simpleton, a figure for 'psychological' novels.

    Although it is not altogether in the line of the introverted intuitive type to make of perception a moral problem, since a certain reinforcement of the rational functions is required for this, yet even a relatively slight differentiation of judgment would suffice to transfer intuitive perception from the purely æsthetic into the moral sphere. A variety of this type is thus produced which differs essentially from its æsthetic form, although none the less characteristic of the introverted intuitive. The moral problem comes into being when the intuitive tries to relate himself to his vision, when he is no longer satisfied with mere perception and its æsthetic shaping and estimation, but confronts the question: What does this mean for me and for the world? What emerges from this vision in the way of a duty or task, either for me or for the world? The pure intuitive who represses judgment or possesses it only under the spell of perception never meets this question fundamentally, since his only problem is the How of perception. He, therefore, finds the moral problem unintelligible, even absurd, and as far as possible forbids his thoughts to dwell upon the disconcerting vision. It is different with the morally orientated intuitive. He concerns himself with the meaning of his vision; he troubles less about its further æsthetic possibilities than about the possible moral effects which emerge from its intrinsic significance. His judgment allows him to discern, though often only darkly, that he, as a man and as a totality, is in some way inter-related with his vision, that [p. 510] it is something which cannot just be perceived but which also would fain become the life of the subject. Through this realization he feels bound to transform his vision into his own life. But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it, because he remains unintelligible. His language is not that which is commonly spoken -- it becomes too subjective. His argument lacks convincing reason. He can only confess or pronounce. His is the 'voice of one crying in the wilderness'.

    The introverted intuitive's chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression. This latter quality is a compensation to the thin upper air of the conscious attitude, giving it a certain weight, so that complete 'sublimation' is prevented. But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects. [p. 511]
    THE BEARD HEARD HIS MOVEMENT AND MADE AN ATTACK RUN BUT DID NOT ACTUALLY ATTACK HIM

    viva palestina

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    pezzonovante's Avatar
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    I just wrote about this in another thread, here is my copy-n-pasted answer .

    is by far the most misunderstood function.

    It is often described as "connections between events in time". What does this really mean? is the ability to see that if A happens, B will happen later on. It is cause and effect, it is predicting the future (not knowing for sure but having a pretty good idea what's going to happen). That's why it is intuition of time. It doesn't have much to do with having a good sense of time itself (sensors are probably better at that).

    It took me a long time to understand what really is. But once I really had it figured out it took away any doubt that I had regarding my type because it is what I'm really really good at (I'm an intuitive subtype). I would consider my greatest talent to be long-term strategy, plotting the optimal path to success by taking actions in the present that will lead to the greatest long-term benefit, and anticipating future problems and avoiding/preparing for them.
    ENTj




    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    that definition is by no means an all-encompassing measure of Ni.

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    pezzonovante's Avatar
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    can be utilized in different ways but that is how I personally use it. If a dominant person would like to expand on my description that would be great.
    ENTj




    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante
    can be utilized in different ways but that is how I personally use it. If a dominant person would like to expand on my description that would be great.
    I've noticed that ENTjs like the "intuition of the time" definition. I would suggest that the "time" thing is perhaps a good description of crea-Ni. Long-range planning in particular combines Te with Ni. If you talk about predicting if B will happen given that A has happened, well that really involves some Te, I think. Also, rational types...Ejs in particular, are very concerned about timeliness, being on top of things, etc.

    Rick and others have suggested that I'm an Ni type, and I certainly know some Ni types. So, in any case, here are my observations. I think Jung's descriptions are pretty good, and more useful probably than Augusta's in this case. I think Ni simply means perceiving through imagination, symbols, images, hunches.

    From a structural point of view, I would add that Ni involves creating of the wholesale outline of any endeavor...that is, consideration and imagination of entirely different paradigms, as opposed to finding all the relevant and far-flung possibilities/opportunities in any given situation, which would be more Ne.

    Now sometimes there has been a debate about whether consciously controlled imagination can be Ni, or if it has to be more like some mysterious image that comes to you that relates in some way to the current situation. I believe both ends of the spectrum are valid manifestations.

    How does this relate to the "time" thing? Well, I would suggest that to consider how things will play out, you have to imagine. However, acc-Ni types...especially IEI...don't necessarily use Ni for risk scenario planning or time management, the way LIEs might.

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    pezzonovante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante
    can be utilized in different ways but that is how I personally use it. If a dominant person would like to expand on my description that would be great.
    I've noticed that ENTjs like the "intuition of the time" definition. I would suggest that the "time" thing is perhaps a good description of crea-Ni. Long-range planning in particular combines Te with Ni. If you talk about predicting if B will happen given that A has happened, well that really involves some Te, I think. Also, rational types...Ejs in particular, are very concerned about timeliness, being on top of things, etc.

    Rick and others have suggested that I'm an Ni type, and I certainly know some Ni types. So, in any case, here are my observations. I think Jung's descriptions are pretty good, and more useful probably than Augusta's in this case. I think Ni simply means perceiving through imagination, symbols, images, hunches.

    From a structural point of view, I would add that Ni involves creating of the wholesale outline of any endeavor...that is, consideration and imagination of entirely different paradigms, as opposed to finding all the relevant and far-flung possibilities/opportunities in any given situation, which would be more Ne.

    Now sometimes there has been a debate about whether consciously controlled imagination can be Ni, or if it has to be more like some mysterious image that comes to you that relates in some way to the current situation. I believe both ends of the spectrum are valid manifestations.

    How does this relate to the "time" thing? Well, I would suggest that to consider how things will play out, you have to imagine. However, acc-Ni types...especially IEI...don't necessarily use Ni for risk scenario planning or time management, the way LIEs might.
    They might not but I have noticed that dominants are hyper aware of the consequences of things that happen. I think that the "connections between events in time" definition works for both acc and crea- types, but they just utilize the information in different ways. It is pretty obvious how LIEs and EIEs will use this information, not too sure about ILIs and IEIs.

    As far as vs , think about Expat's analogy with the fog and the laser beams. Apply that to intuition and ideas, and it makes perfect sense.
    ENTj




    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    le petit prince raisonpure's Avatar
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    I prefer "intuition of the balance between intangible forces in the universe and the patterns that subsequently develop from those imbalances" (ENTj by function) over "intuition of time". Having a heightened sensitivity to developing dangers in the environment, my sole mission in life is to seek out chaos and suppress it. Should it be left unattended, I easily lose sleep over the images of what could happen. I am painfully aware that "all is flux": the sense of impending disaster can remain with me even while I'm in bed. One's peace of mind and stability is sacrificed for that of others; I see this as the absence of Si in myself.

    My experience of Ni:
    - Plain English often fails me, and I end up resorting to images for saying something as simple as "I ignited this argument so that you could have a chance to make up" because it is more natural for me to perceive and express things symbolically.

    - Thinking of myself as "a mere cog of destiny", resulting in the reluctance to expound on events that befall everyone at some point in time. So, when asked "How are you?", I once answered "I am confronting the fate that I have sowed for myself" as a substitute for "I'm catching up on overdue assignments".

    - When "daydreaming", focusing on everyone and the invisible interactions between them -- instead of on myself, specific individuals, or random thoughts. I may be staring at you with wide open eyes, but it is not you whom I see; you might as well be looking back at a lifeless body. Sight and sound become a blur. It's like the people surrounding you are but characters in a TV show, yet you yourself have ceased to be a character. You abandon your sense of self to become the TV show itself, which is the closest you can get to omniscience and omnipotence: knowing everything that's happening around you, everything that will happen from there on, and how they can be countered. Even though I'm against drugs, I can understand how other INFps could rely on them to experience this "contact with Higher Powers". It takes a heavy dose of delirium to feel like you're out of this world.

    If you haven't already, see:
    http://socionics.us/works/semantics.shtml
    http://socionist.blogspot.com/search...ed%20intuition

    Jung's writing is an extreme example of Ni. I still have a hard time interpreting him, but I'm getting a better glimpse of the picture now that I can relate it to real life experiences and observations. Another example can be found in Ashton's perception of Si, Ne, and Se. Yes, he is undoubtedly ENTj -- albeit one that has yet to choose and walk a path to fight for. His imagery isn't as crystallised as snegledmaca's, but he references external things more. By the way, snegledmaca provided a stunning demonstration of Ni in http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=5268
    It's easier to express this through a metaphor. Imagine you are hovering above a great lake. And imagine that you have a magic wand. With that wand you can create ripples in this lake. But with it you can also smooth out the ripples. With the wand you can actively (Consciously) control the lake. You can make water spiral in a whirl pool, you can make it dance, you can make it flow upwards, make a fountain, do anything. Of course how much you can do is determined by your skills with the magic wand. To make water spiral in a sphere for instance would require mastering.
    That would be a picture of my creative function.

    A picture of my foundation would be the lake metaphor again, but this time you are the lake, you are a part of the lake. When you move, the lake moves, the flow changes. As the lake changes, anywhere, no mater how small, you can feel it. That change is a part of you, everything is a part of you. You may forget that you are a part of the lake the same way you forget about your clothes or that you are breathing. Here the possibilities are endless. Here you can make the water rise like a mountain because it is you that is rising.

    I view every functions a lake, a continuum that we somehow access. What our function on the lake is are the functions of psyche.

    The Hidden agenda would be swimming in the lake. "A jolly good swim!" but you must get out of the water at some point.. And when you do you sit on the shore, sun bathing, and observe the "magicians" as they fly over the water and make the water flow upwards, make fountains, make bridges and pass under them, like mystical beings playing with it, wishing you were there with them.
    You don't notice the flows of the water itself as they move on their own, often undetected. But you do notice these flows when in water, you feel these masses engulf you, take you away with them like a sea current, the force is so great you can't fight it. They wash you away on an unknown shore.
    It is difficult to move between shores in this mode because you can only swim and they are often far, far apart. You need magicians or the sea currents to get you there.
    The magicians fly you over and show you a world you only dream about. You get to fly under a bridge of water, you get to see curtains of waterfalls, water parting and touching the bottom, a water tornado, traveling in a bubble of air under water, all of this in the safe hans of the magicians. A truly magical experience.
    With the flows it's like public transport. "Get me there!" the chariot takes off and the horses gallop. You see scenery as it is, it may be beautiful, it may not be.

    But at least you can swim.

    The PoLR would be standing on the edge of the lake, with a rubber ducky and not being able to swim. This grave big expanse is before you and you are pretty certain that the rubber ducky ain't going to keep you afloat. But every so often you muster up the courage to and just go for it. Of course, you sometimes withdraw immediately, just like you would in real life when faced with such a task, but sometimes, just sometimes, you plunge head first. And then you start drowning.
    Sometimes you rationalize "Why, it won't be so bad, I mean, this rubber ducky will keep me afloat, it must!" and so oblivious you enter and start to drown.
    Other times you are completely oblivious from start that you have just a rubber ducky to keep you afloat, perhaps reassured by great feats in other areas of personal life you decide for an unknown reason to boldly go where you haven't gone before. And then you start to drown.
    What you need then is not for the sea to swallow you whole, for the currents to wash you out to sea so you'll drown. You then need a life guard to pull you out.

    The life guard at the lake is the Demonstrative function. It keeps those who keep drowning from drowning "Be careful, it's a treacherous sea out there, you're lucky I pulled you out". Even though a life guard can swim excellently in the lake, he, she doesn't. He or she does so only in cases of emergency. Even then it will not be willingly but born out of necessity. They much prefer to sit at the edge, in their comfy chair and file their nails.
    “I think, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand (ESTp, UR GUARDIAN ANGEL)

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    pezzonovante's Avatar
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    That's very interesting Raisonpure, I like your descriptions. How would you say that you utilize as a tool? How do you use it to do things?
    ENTj




    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisonpure
    Jung's writing is an extreme example of Ni. I still have a hard time interpreting him, but I'm getting a better glimpse of the picture now that I can relate it to real life experiences and observations.
    Here is the problem that simply must be solved before we can move on: Jung believed that he was an introverted thinking type. So, if his writings is an extreme example of , there are only two possibilities:

    1. Jung's descriptions of the functions and the types are totally wrong and misleading in a socionic perspective and should never be used to get a better understanding of the socionic functions and types.

    2. Jung's descriptions of the functions and the types are more or less correct in a socionic perspective and can be used to get a better understanding of the socionic functions and types. But in that case Jung was totally confused about his own type. That must be explained somehow. Without a really good explanation for it, we must assume that if Jung could be so totally mistaken about his own type, so can we, and therefore we cannot use any of his descriptions of the functions to type ourselves with any accuracy -- and probably not the socionic descriptions of the functions either.

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    Rick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ni

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    I guess this is a pretty old question: what is exactly the Ni function about? How is it manifested in people's actions and conversations? Examples are welcomed.
    Some good stuff has been written so far. Jung's description was interesting to read. The most concentrated example of that I've come across so far is described here: http://socionist.blogspot.com/2006/1...in-action.html
    with some audio clips that are highly illustrative.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Raisonpure's post was probably the first one that really clarified for me what people say when they speak about Ni.

    Phaedrus, if only you knew how to read, you would have understood that she refers to jung's description of Ni, not to Jung's type.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by raisonpure
    Jung's writing is an extreme example of Ni. I still have a hard time interpreting him, but I'm getting a better glimpse of the picture now that I can relate it to real life experiences and observations.
    Here is the problem that simply must be solved before we can move on: Jung believed that he was an introverted thinking type. So, if his writings is an extreme example of
    I thought Raisonpure meant that the quote from Jung was describing an extreme Ni type, not that Jung himself was extreme Ni.

    [EDIT: Oh I guess FDG just said that....sorry. ]

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    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante
    As far as vs , think about Expat's analogy with the fog and the laser beams. Apply that to intuition and ideas, and it makes perfect sense.
    I thought the fog and laser beams analogy was supposed to explain the static nature of Fi vs. the dynamic nature of Fe. In this case, though Ni is dynamic and Ne is static. Which one (Ne or Ni) did you see as like fog, and which like a laser beam? I thought the laser beam image also appeared to be chosen because F is a rational function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I thought the fog and laser beams analogy was supposed to explain the static nature of Fi vs. the dynamic nature of Fe. In this case, though Ni is dynamic and Ne is static. Which one (Ne or Ni) did you see as like fog, and which like a laser beam? I thought the laser beam image also appeared to be chosen because F is a rational function.
    Yes, I agree with Jonathan's interpretation That's pretty much how I meant it, although this doesn't describe my vision fully.

    pezzonovante, how exactly would you apply it to Ne and Ni?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisonpure
    I prefer "intuition of the balance between intangible forces in the universe and the patterns that subsequently develop from those imbalances" (ENTj by function) over "intuition of time". Having a heightened sensitivity to developing dangers in the environment, my sole mission in life is to seek out chaos and suppress it. Should it be left unattended, I easily lose sleep over the images of what could happen. I am painfully aware that "all is flux": the sense of impending disaster can remain with me even while I'm in bed. One's peace of mind and stability is sacrificed for that of others; I see this as the absence of Si in myself.
    It's interesting how you view Ni as sort of keeping you in an unsettled state. In contrast, Rick highlights the relaxing tone and pleasantness of Garrison Keillor as a prime example of Ni and of IEI in particular.

    I'm not saying that there's a problem with one or the other description; I'm just pointing out that they seem to conflict.

    Personally, I think I've met Ni types who are the unsettled type, always worrying, etc., but I think that some are more settled.

    How does one account for this? I think it may be too simplistic to say Si=settled and Ni=unsettled. Si involves being settled primarily through physical awareness and having matters settled (different meaning of the word) instead of up to constant re-evaluation.

    But some Ni types, it seems to me, are always worrying, whereas others are more blissful and content. It may be the influence of a different scale that's not in the model.

    It may be that there's a settled/unsettled dichotomy, and a physical/intuitive dichotomy. Simplistically, one may try to see if the combination leads to Ne vs. Ni, but I don't think this is correct. Note that Si and Ni are both "dynamic" and Ne types sometimes worry a lot too.

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Ni = the implied aspects of continuous relationships and interdependencies
    ("time" would be an example of a "continuous relationship")

    Ni an Si see relationships and interdependencies as a continuous ..flow(?)
    The differences between them is that these relationships/interdependencies are either defined (Si) or implied (Ni)

    Can be combined with
    Te = the defined aspects of discrete objects, concepts, people, places, things
    Fe = the vague impressions of discrete objects, concepts, people, places, things



    Note: the above should probably be modified towards a more active verb stance rather than the nominalizations I wrote.
    For example, "we don't have A relationship, we RELATE", "those concepts depend upon each other", "these objects inter-relate", etc.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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