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  1. #1
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    Default YAWN

    wtf?????



    ZZzzzZZzzzZZzzZzZZzZZzZZzZzZZZzzzzz
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

  2. #2
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    agreed. Beta has been quite ...how to put it... peaceful lately.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
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    All my subjects seem to go to General discussion or Anything goes. I'm not sure what to write in these quadra specific topics.

    So how about...how do I know if I'm INFp (Ni) or ENFj (Ni)?

    And another one: do you see me as a positivist because I think I'm negativist but in order to be INFp I would have to be positivist.

    And a third one...how can I figure out if I have IP or EJ temperament?

    Ok, these don't really belong to Beta quadra either but that's all I could think of...what would be really Beta...something like "ZOMG! pwnz! rofl! lololololol!!!!! get a life!" umm...

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    i've been thinking of joining the delta quadra. i've been feeling INFj for so long. i feel like writing a poem and perhaps doing some volunteer work at the hospital. i've also been thinking of changing my screen name to Gandhi...
    IEI - the nasty kind...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    agreed. Beta has been quite ...how to put it... peaceful lately.
    yeah, that's cause most of em left
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    nvmd beta stay away
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    agreed. Beta has been quite ...how to put it... peaceful lately.
    yeah, that's cause most of em left
    And two banned. I think I like this forum better when there are a good number of people from all quadras posting. I am sure I missed something as usual but why exactly was Jadae and Indigoroom banned? Jadae in particular seemed pretty cool.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    I explained it here:

    http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=8897


    I banned them, with rmcnew's agreement and no active objection from any other moderator, because they had become trolls whose sole purpose to even post here was to insult individuals and nothing else.

    It may be a pity that not more people from Beta are posting but Jadae's and Krae's posts had lost all usefulness and even entertaining value. They were being merely destructive.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    agreed. Beta has been quite ...how to put it... peaceful lately.
    yeah, that's cause most of em left
    And two banned.
    In this particular situation that qualifies as "left" in my mind... but it's 4 or 5, not two.

    (catholic schoolboy is Gamma in this count, btw)
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    I see no real reason for banning a member if they have started to think and say that the forum is crap. I disagree that the forum is crap myself but I think Jadae was within his right to express his belief without being booted out as he was. I say challenge his opinions even warn him but banning seems a step too far and totally un-necessary. I find it interesting and even vaguely unethical that he was banned at the time when he was, someone clearly used their (I do think it was a time of high emotionalism with people having a high need to prove their loyalty to the forum).
    I find it interesting that Expat was the one who initiated the ban. Expat had quite a few disagreements with Krae in particular about how he speaks of and treats beta types if my recollection serves me. As for the insults I have done a brief review of Jadae's posts and I cannot say that I see anything worst than what some poeple who are still here have said.

    Again, I might have missed something but as a person very prone to observation I do not think I like what I see.

    No offence intended to anyone.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    . As for the insults I have done a brief review of Jadae's posts and I cannot say that I see anything worst than what some poeple who are still here have said.
    That's because the most insulting posts have been deleted by me at the time. That's part of my job. That is why you can't see them.

    If you are implying that Jadae and Krae were banned because of my personal dislike, I will be direct.

    Jadae and krae were coming here only to be insulting to the forum and to Joy, me, and one or two other people in particular -- either in their actual posts, or in their signatures. Jadae linked to Socionix in his signature first as "land of no Joy" and then as "land of no robots", a reference to myself. While Joy had never even registered in Socionix, and I had given up on that forum as well. If they would say those things while still saying something useful or even entertaining now and then, that would be something else. However, their only purpose in coming here was to be insulting.

    So, they have been banned, and nobody bothered to argue against it (before yourself). Perhaps because this is a tyranny? Rubbish. Nobody has been banned frivolously. On the contrary, rmcnew and I went out of our way to bring Herzy back after she had been banned for posting pornography.

    Also, let me tell you that rmcnew took the trouble to register at Socionix just to talk to Herzy when she was banned here. His account there was simply deleted. No explanation, and the administrators there - Jadae among them - simply played innocent and said "someone else did it" - while not doing anything to apologize or restore his account.


    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Again, I might have missed something but as a person very prone to observation I do not think I like what I see.
    Ok, "person very prone to observation", what do you think you are seeing? Some sort of tyranny, where people are banned for no reason?

    If that's what you "are seeing" and if you think rmcnew or myself are some sort of mad tyrants, say it clearly. But if that's what you think, let me tell you plainly that you are wrong.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Expat had quite a few disagreements with Krae in particular about how he speaks of and treats beta types if my recollection serves me
    Right, so I banned krae because of these disagreements . Is that what you think? Of course, the posts that he made specifically to insult others - mainly Joy - have been deleted.

    My opinion is that krae is a vicious, mean bastard who will lie through his teeth to cause harm to those he dislikes. He thinks that I am a "strange old man" and a "robot". Fine. But that is not why he was banned.

    If most people here think that I am a mad tyrant and that it was unjust to ban krae and Jadae, then say so and I will cease being a moderator and perhaps even stop posting here altogether. It's that simple.

    EDIT: oh, and my contempt for krae and Jadae has nothing to do with their being Beta. I am not aware of any other Betas having been banned or being treated with contempt by me.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  13. #13
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    The point though is not just that they were saying negative things, it is that they were not posting anything positive or constructive. Their sole purpose in posting was always to stir up trouble. The "us against them" mentality that they (and I'm referring to a group of about 6 to 10 socionix posters) didn't carry any consequences here at all (we just ignored them) until a line was crossed when a few of them deleted a very large number of posts. No, krae and jadae we not directly responsible for that act, but they contributed to the "us and them" attitude which caused it... it never had to be that way. Again, their sole purpose here of as late was to stir up trouble. Though what was posted at socionix following their bannings indicated that they (or at least jadae) thought the whole thing was funny and further perpetuated the "us and them" dynamic with had been created over there. I have only read anything there a couple times so I don't know for sure, but someone told me that jadae deleted a bunch of his posts, so I don't think you'd be able to go back and read them now.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    My opinion is that krae is a vicious, mean bastard who will lie through his teeth to cause harm to those he dislikes.
    But what kind of harm can he cause?? Don't take him too seriously! :wink:
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    The point though is not just that they were saying negative things, it is that they were not posting anything positive or constructive. Their sole purpose in posting was always to stir up trouble.
    That is the essence of the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    But what kind of harm can he cause?? Don't take him too seriously! :wink:
    I don't, he has ceased to exist as far as I am concerned.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    it does kind of suck that beta took a hit, though.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX

    And a third one...how can I figure out if I have IP or EJ temperament?
    Do you feel you're the one who has to initiate relationships with others, and if others do, you feel sort of intruded upon?

    Or do you feel most natural and even "relieved" when others take the initiative?


    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze8
    it does kind of suck that beta took a hit, though.
    Rather than see it as a quadra taking a hit, I see it as some individuals having deservedly been banned, while other two (Herzy and Baby) simply got tired of this forum.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  18. #18
    Khamelion's Avatar
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    You can't give names to supposive beings that do not exisit.
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

  19. #19
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    Beta...
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Beta...
    UDP III...
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

  21. #21
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    UDP, do you give yourself a new name everytime you question your type or something?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    No
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    @ Expat, I think it would be difficult for me to evaluate now because some of Jadae's posts were deleted. Krae, I guess I never always understood to put it lightly and I know he could be quite caustic at times.

    I do not really want to pursue this much further for several reasons but I have wondered about why they were banned and why at that time [of high emotionalism] and not before and also if there was adequate reason for the ban(especially when you compare the "constructiveness" of their posts to the posts of some others who are still here) and if a warning would not have been less harsh and more appropriate. Who decides what is a constructive post?

    Expat, when do you consider it appropriate to ban someone?

    Gosh, I wonder if there shouldn't be something more democratic like a poll of members when someone has been deemed worthy of a "drastic" action like being banned. This might protect moderators from suspicions of prejudice and also protect people with unpopular opinions/actions.
    Socionics: XNFx
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  24. #24
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    Why didn't it happen until then even though it should have happened sooner? Conservative mods/admin. I'd have done it long before and I'm sure they wanted to as well. What happened just made it so what needed to be done about the whole situation (with all of the provocateurs, not just the ones that were directly involved) became more clear, clear enough to take action.

    The bannings were bound to be at least somewhat controversial, but the benefit of removing posters whose sole purpose was to stir up trouble (as opposed to simply not being constructive) outweighs the consequence. It was time for the whole thing to just be done and over with... which it's obviously not because we're talking about them right now... but it was a step in that direction.

    Besides... I'm certain that if krae or jadae, more so jadae, would have expressed a desire to return their posting privileges would have been restored with a simply warning that they would be banned once again if they attempted to stir up dissension once again.
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  25. #25
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    Also, this is not a democracy. I tried to organize it so that a bunch of people could chip in to buy the forum and then each would have a say in how it's run... no one was interested though. Point being, the admin and mods can do what they want because the admin in the owner of the site and his mods were appointed by him. If he decides they're not doing what they should be doing he can remove their mod access.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Also, this is not a democracy. I tried to organize it so that a bunch of people could chip in to buy the forum and then each would have a say in how it's run... no one was interested though. Point being, the admin and mods can do what they want because the admin in the owner of the site and his mods were appointed by him. If he decides they're not doing what they should be doing he can remove their mod access.
    I see your point. The forum is not a democracy. The admin can do anything he wants; this is especially easy if he is not concerned with treating people fairly/leniently and I am sure that is not true of mcnew at all.

    I think it is better that one person owns the forum to be honest. If a bunch of people had purchased the forum it would be much more difficult to operate ...especially because people have such different views about how things should operate and the people here for the most part do not actually know each other well enough for that kind of collaboration. Besides, the current admin is more or less operating the forum well and is making improvements all the time, and he does care about socionics. I don't think many people would disagree with that and i don't think it is an issue.

    Basically, I think it is more interesting here with many people from each quadra, it probably just needs a couple of the Beta types to come back... and yes, be respectful to others in their disagreements, most of them and their posts were not rude and disrespectful anyway.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

  27. #27
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    The problem with the ones who got banned was not that they're Beta, it was that they're bitter, depressed, handling extreme stress inappropriately, obnoxious little teenage girls, and/or just bullies in general (meaning they're insecure). I'm sure some healthier, more mature Betas will appear in time. And it wasn't a total loss... Clover, XoX, Kristiina, vague, maze, starfall, Kioshi, FDG, ScarlettLux, and many other Betas who make this forum a better place are still remaining.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I see your point. The forum is not a democracy. The admin can do anything he wants; this is especially easy if he is not concerned with treating people fairly/leniently and I am sure that is not true of mcnew at all.

    Besides, the current admin is more or less operating the forum well and is making improvements all the time, and he does care about socionics. I don't think many people would disagree with that and i don't think it is an issue.
    This is all true. Mcnew's doing a good job, imo, and I think most people would agree that it is difficult to know exactly how to handle people like the ones who were banned. Perhaps in the future the admin/mods won't be as reluctant to ban such provocateur or remove mod access from people who are not stable and/or trustworthy.
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    No, krae and jadae we not directly responsible for that act, but they contributed to the "us and them" attitude which caused it... it never had to be that way. Again, their sole purpose here of as late was to stir up trouble.
    The forum as unfortunately long been "cliquey" and I cannot say that I believe Jadae or Krae is responsible soley for that and I do not know that it was an us and them attitude that lead to the act.
    I think to some extent you (Joy) and Expat do not seem to always go down so well with some of the beta people and a whole lot of un-necessary problems resulted. I do not know who is at fault if anyone but i think all the "us against them" attitude is destructive and should stop on both sides.
    Socionics: XNFx
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  30. #30
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    That's the thing though... most people who would be considered to be part of "the 16types crowd" were only that because "the socionix crowd" made us that. Until the attack, if you will, none of "the 16types crowd" cared who did or didn't post on the socionix forum or any other forum. "The 16types crowd" had relationships with other people in "the 16types crowd", but no one was ever excluded or singled out due to their friendships with others. It wasn't until some people who are a part of a certain clique, the only clique I know of in the community, caused damage and people were hurt and upset that anyone in "the 16types crowd" truly acknowledged this divide or blamed one person for the actions of others through guilt by association. The funny thing is that both Expat and myself still couldn't give a shit who does or does not post on any other forum out there. I don't care if say... anndelise or implied hangs out at #socionix or post in the socionix forum. They're both still my friends, and I'm sure there are others, too (I wouldn't really even know who). If Catholic Schoolboy or CPig or Zeia for some reason started emailing me and was friendly (which wouldn't happen) I wouldn't hesitate to converse with them in a pleasant manner (though I'll admit that there's a person or two who I wouldn't be as nice to).
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  31. #31
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    Yawn
    SEE Unknown Subtype
    6w7 sx/so



    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    Yawn
    poor Clover .

    @Joy, i think it is just important now that everyone stops blaming and being defensive and stop seeing other groups and quadras as "them". I hope that the ban against Jadae and possibly Krae will eventually be lifted.
    Socionics: XNFx
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    i think it is just important now that everyone stops blaming
    I agree

    Remember what I said before... neither wants to come back. Jadae posted something (don't remember what) at socionix about it, and neither emailed mcnew to talk to him about it (that I know of). I guess I just don't see what the point of lifting the bans would be.
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    First, I agree with everything Joy said (except for being too lenient on Catholic Schoolboy).

    As to some of Megan's points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    This might protect moderators from suspicions of prejudice and also protect people with unpopular opinions/actions
    Who exactly needs to be protected due to their "unpopular opinions"?

    Besides the forum defacement issue - which directly resulted in CPig's, Ashton's, and CS's bannings, the only bannings (apart from spam bots) were of Hugo and Herzy, Jadae and Krae.

    Hugo: he was banned already in Jimmy's time because he posted Jimmy's picture and personal details as "revenge" when Jimmy warned him to stop harrassing Catholic Schoolboy. He then kept creating new accounts just to come back and post his details again and again. Later, he was allowed back - or Jimmmy ceased to care - and he remained quiet for a while. Then he went into another "mad period" and started repeatedly posting people's pictures without their permission, as a deliberate provocation. When I warned him about it, he then posted a picture of mine that I had shown to people in the chat. Then I banned him.
    He still has other accounts, and he might come back if he behaved, but he prefers to use them to do stuff like PMing female posters. He's also still obsessed about Catholic Schoolboy as a recent post to rmcnew shows.

    Herzy: she had always been fond of posting links to pornography and the like, and gor warned for that; then she went over the top and rmcnew banned her. Myself and other moderators argued in the mod forum that that had been too harsh, rmcnew and I talked to Herzy in the Socionix forum (rmcnew's thanks for that was to have his account there deleted, with no explanation) to explain why she had been banned and to get her back. She was unbanned, later she she decided to leave, but she can post anytime she wants.


    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Who decides what is a constructive post?
    Megan, you're going out of your way to make it complicated, with an obvious background of "Jadae was just banned because of tyranny". Isn't it?

    A destructive post is one that contains merely insults to individuals. People do that now and then, but krae and Jadae were coming here only to post stuff insulting to individuals.

    You seem to be thinking that they were banned because they said the forum is crap. No, they were banned because they had become trolls, they were coming here only to insult people. Nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Expat, when do you consider it appropriate to ban someone?
    When people behave the way Hugo, krae and Jadae have. Apart from Ashton, CPig and Catholic Schoolboy.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    The forum as unfortunately long been "cliquey" and I cannot say that I believe Jadae or Krae is responsible soley for that and I do not know that it was an us and them attitude that lead to the act.
    I think to some extent you (Joy) and Expat do not seem to always go down so well with some of the beta people and a whole lot of un-necessary problems resulted. I do not know who is at fault if anyone but i think all the "us against them" attitude is destructive and should stop on both sides.
    Sheer rubbish.

    There is no "us against them" attitude from my or rmcnew's side; there is no "clique" here as far as I am concerned. The "clique" bullshit is totally one-sided. The mods here aren't a "clique"; the last post in the mod forum is from Jan 17. There are a few people here whom I consider close friends but most of them aren't mods. What Joy said is totally correct.

    The "unnecessary problems" resulted from some people coming here only to insult others. They are the ones at fault. There is no mystery to this.

    Even as it is, as I have said, if people think it was unfair to ban krae and Jadae, just say so - in this thread or elsewhere - and if that is the prevailing opinion, I will cease being a moderator. Period.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I don't sense cliques since those people left....


    ...but then again I was never one to fall under one clique, I roam...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    The forum as unfortunately long been "cliquey" and I cannot say that I believe Jadae or Krae is responsible soley for that and I do not know that it was an us and them attitude that lead to the act.
    I think to some extent you (Joy) and Expat do not seem to always go down so well with some of the beta people and a whole lot of un-necessary problems resulted. I do not know who is at fault if anyone but i think all the "us against them" attitude is destructive and should stop on both sides.
    Sheer rubbish.
    Do you really believe that Joy and yourself have not had problems with some betas?

    There is no "us against them" attitude from my or rmcnew's side;
    I disagree, there has been a us against them thing which Joy mentioned first for quite some time. I can remember Krae criticizing you (not mcnew)for the way you speak of beta types in general and I also know that Jadae was concerned about this too. You commented to me about some friction between gamma(i take this to mean largely you and Joy) and beta even before the defacements.

    The larger point is Expat, that there is just a need for both sides to stop being defensive and "us against them" as Joy as put it regardless of what previously happened.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Expat and I concern ourselves with individuals and recognize that some of those individuals see themselves as part of a group. And my being the one to point out that there was a line does not mean that I was the one who drew it.

    lol we should let this go... what's done is done there's there's no way to reverse it. It's good for you to express your concerns, as you have, but I don't see going over the same stuff again as being beneficial in any way. Of course, if there's something else that you want to say, you should say it (and you can always feel free to PM me as well ).
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Megan, you just managed to miss the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Do you really believe that Joy and yourself have not had problems with some betas?
    That is not what I said! What is going on here, that it's so difficult to understand what I - and Joy - are writing?

    What I said that was "sheer rubbish" was your implication that the forum is "cliquey". No it isn't; there was one clique here as Clover mentioned, and they are largely gone now. The whole problem was seen, started, and maintained by them. You imply a two-sidedness that never existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    There is no "us against them" attitude from my or rmcnew's side;
    I disagree, there has been a us against them thing which Joy mentioned first for quite some time. I can remember Krae criticizing you (not mcnew)for the way you speak of beta types in general and I also know that Jadae was concerned about this too. You commented to me about some friction between gamma(i take this to mean largely you and Joy) and beta even before the defacements.

    The larger point is Expat, that there is just a need for both sides to stop being defensive and "us against them" as Joy as put it regardless of what previously happened.
    There aren't "two sides", there were never two sides, and this story of how "I speak about Beta types" was always nonsense.

    I speak plainly about quadras and types, openly. I am also often wrong. I speak plainly because my ultimate aim is to understand all types. In that process, I have been accused of "bashing" ESFps, ISFjs, ISFps, ISTjs, Ti types, and more recently Betas generally. You yourself accused me of hating INFjs, for fuck's sake. Do I hate everyone?

    The real issue - as Kristiina saw - is that some people take any mention of a quadra or type that could conceivably be seen as negative as a "I hate you" statement.

    For instance, there was a thread called "Your experiences with ENFjs". I wrote a description of one ENFj in particular whom I knew very well, my former boss. I never said nor implied that he was a typical representative of all ENFjs. In my "possible ENFjs thread", I listed a number of very admirable individuals as ENFjs.

    Yet, krae and Jadae took that description as yet another "proof" that I have a "bias" against that type and Betas. The real issue is not any anti-ENFj bias of mine; it's that if I write anything possibly negative about their types, some people see that as a declaration of war.

    What happened was this:

    - I write whatever I think (right or wrong) about any type
    - Joy writes whatever she thinks, about anything
    - some people got annoyed at Joy for that, and some (Jadae and krae) started posting vicious things about her (while otherwise staying absent)
    - the same people started seeing my own writings as a sort of war on Betas, and started insulting me too
    - the same people were banned NOT because of this "two-sides" rubbish - I don't care the least about that, except as a socionics interaction - but because of their actions in coming here only to be destructive.

    That is the "larger point". There are no two sides. Two individuals became trolls and assholes, so they were banned. And banned they shall remain, unless rmcnew decides to bring them back.

    And, again, anyone who was against it could always write saying that they should be unbanned - just as you are doing now. And if that is the majority position, I will stop being a moderator.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Expat and I concern ourselves with individuals and recognize that some of those individuals see themselves as part of a group. And my being the one to point out that there was a line does not mean that I was the one who drew it.
    Exactly.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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