I always saw Lee Kuan Yew as ISTj rather than ENTj.
I always saw Lee Kuan Yew as ISTj rather than ENTj.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
I totally agree with this. The way he freaking controls the people and the country.
INTp
sx/sp
I think he's ENTp. FWIW.Conan O'Brien
EDIT: Which is odd, because I find his jokes somewhat annoying. Heh.
Pim Fortuyn, Dutch politician (murdered)
Jor-El in the first Superman movies
Re: Some possible ENTjs (reboot)
Could you post your reasons why you believe Augustus to be ENTj? Reading through his history of how he maneuvered in politics and handled his foes, he did things as I would do them (as an INTj), with ruthless efficiency, he didn't come off ENTJ to me, but I'll readily admit I haven't been around socionics as long as you. He always came off as an action speaks louder than words kind of man.
Augustus, first Roman Emperor
Re: Some possible ENTjs (reboot)
Please tell me why the bits I highlighted are inconsistent with your idea of what an ENTj is.
Re: Some possible ENTjs (reboot)
Reading the physical description of an ENTj, they come off as loud;Please tell me why the bits I highlighted are inconsistent with your idea of what an ENTj is.
Augustus was noted as being extremely serious, even as a young man. It doesn't coincide with that of an ENTj who's described as being loud, and a joker.
The action speaks louder than words is really referring to my initial point, it really didn't need to be there but I didn't proof read my post
Granted no one has day to day journals of Augustus' everyday behavior, but Augustus being described as a 'sickly' young man doesn't coincide with that of an ENTj who can be aggressive and bullying, again I do recognize that it says 'sometimes' so I can see that I can possibly be wrong on this.
I do have a personal interest in Augustus being a INTj though, I've read through a lot of his history and see a lot of myself in him, where as I see little to nothing of myself in an ENTj. It can be that I'm only seeing what I want to see, but I'm certain that he's not an ENTj, which is why I wanted to find out what made him stand out as an ENTj to you, someone who's been around socionics much longer than I have.
Thanks
Re: Some possible ENTjs (reboot)
The answer to your question is obvious. You do not really understand what true ENTjs are like; those bits quoted from Ganin's site do not reflect the essence of an ENTj's motivations or behavior. I suggest you read Filatova's and Stratiyevskaya's descriptions in the Articles subforum here - at least to broaden your view of the type.
Also, Augustus's being physically"sickly" as a young man - and yet acting with lightning daring, even recklessness, when Caesar was murdered - and having, yes, to make lots of speeches on the street and in the Senate - rather confirms that he was ENTj, even given your apparent misconception of the type, does it not? Being "sickly" is not type-related; being proactive to anticipate your enemies is more likely to be.
Re: Some possible ENTjs (reboot)
You could be right, I haven't read Filatova's and Stratiyevskaya's so I'll read those firstThe answer to your question is obvious. You do not really understand what true ENTjs are like; those bits quoted from Ganin's site do not reflect the essence of an ENTj's motivations or behavior. I suggest you read Filatova's and Stratiyevskaya's descriptions in the Articles subforum here - at least to broaden your view of the type.
Also, Augustus's being physically"sickly" as a young man - and yet acting with lightning daring, even recklessness, when Caesar was murdered - and having, yes, to make lots of speeches on the street and in the Senate - rather confirms that he was ENTj, even given your apparent misconception of the type, does it not? Being "sickly" is not type-related; being proactive to anticipate your enemies is more likely to be.
EDIT:
I can see how Augustus having to give speeches being an ENTj thing (as it's part of their natural behavior), and that social situations are an INTj's weak point. But I don't think it's hard to believe that an INTj can seek out to fix his weakness;. But this is me speculating so it can't be proved either way, it'd be a moot argument.
I read through Stratiyevskaya's description and agree that there are good points to Augustus being an ENTj;
This confuses me because Augustus wasn't known for being 'friendly'.
This makes sense (in the sense that Augustus deep down wanted to do good), except that Augustus and Marc Anthony murdered all their enemies in the Senate and distributed the property and wealth among their own soldiers. This is what I was referring to as being ruthlessly efficient, then again this type of thinking probably isn't limited to an INTj, but it is how I think.
I can see how this works, but how is this limited to an ENTj? I don't think it's illogical to believe that with more power, you have more freedom to instill change to fit with your vision, or maybe I'm close minded on this.
I do see a lot more reasons why Augustus could be ENTj, but I'm still not convinced, especially not on the speeches, and being 'brave' alone.
Ok going further with this is going to require way more input than I'm interested in putting in, I'm going to settle for letting bygones be bygones.
Whoah, good call!
[hr:2fec7bf818]
What about:
Sarah Roemer (from Disturbia)
Kate Moss
Whoah, good call!
[hr:2fec7bf818]
What about:
Sarah Roemer (from Disturbia)
Kate Moss
@astralsilky: Are those Northern lights in your avatar? Cool.
Anyway, it didn't occur to me that Kate Moss might be LIE. She seems to be an irrational and I thought she could be SLI.
@astralsilky: Are those Northern lights in your avatar? Cool.
Anyway, it didn't occur to me that Kate Moss might be LIE. She seems to be an irrational and I thought she could be SLI.
@aut0: I think you're going about this the wrong way, with understanding both ENTjs and Augustus. As for his being "friendly" you might want to read Suetonius's short biography of him, easily available online. Anyway, the way to go is not by comparing isolated items of descriptions of a type with isolated items of a person's external behavior. The way to go is to try to understand what makes the type tick, in terms of deeper motivations and what makes them behave the way they do; and then see if that fits the person you are trying to type. Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.
@aut0: I think you're going about this the wrong way, with understanding both ENTjs and Augustus. As for his being "friendly" you might want to read Suetonius's short biography of him, easily available online. Anyway, the way to go is not by comparing isolated items of descriptions of a type with isolated items of a person's external behavior. The way to go is to try to understand what makes the type tick, in terms of deeper motivations and what makes them behave the way they do; and then see if that fits the person you are trying to type. Detailed descriptions of a person's external behavior are a window into their functions, but the behavior itself is not the type.
@astralsilky: Are those Northern lights in your avatar? Cool.
SLI? Hmm. Don't think so, but that's due to lack of evidence rather than reasons against. Guess I'd have to see her in motion again.
Last week on tv I saw Kate Moss in motion for the first time, and she struck me as possibly being ENTj. I haven't id'd many famous ENTj women, so these waters are a bit unfamiliar and I'm seeking validation. Anyway, I can seem some facial expressions in Kate's online pix that I've seen in a couple male ENTjs I've known a long time. And, her energies appear to fit the ENTj sketches I concocted over time, but admittedly these can be elusive and are still under development - (i.e., refinement).
The only other potential ENTj woman I have to propose for now is Eileen Brennan. All three are reasonable guesses, to some degree or another. I won't be dogmatic about it.
What's your type, eunice?
@astralsilky: Are those Northern lights in your avatar? Cool.
SLI? Hmm. Don't think so, but that's due to lack of evidence rather than reasons against. Guess I'd have to see her in motion again.
Last week on tv I saw Kate Moss in motion for the first time, and she struck me as possibly being ENTj. I haven't id'd many famous ENTj women, so these waters are a bit unfamiliar and I'm seeking validation. Anyway, I can seem some facial expressions in Kate's online pix that I've seen in a couple male ENTjs I've known a long time. And, her energies appear to fit the ENTj sketches I concocted over time, but admittedly these can be elusive and are still under development - (i.e., refinement).
The only other potential ENTj woman I have to propose for now is Eileen Brennan. All three are reasonable guesses, to some degree or another. I won't be dogmatic about it.
What's your type, eunice?
Kate Moss is more likely ENFj if we have to choose a Ni type.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Kate Moss is more likely ENFj if we have to choose a Ni type.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Why?
Why?
I don't know much about Kate Moss, except from the negative reports about her getting into rehab. I find it hard to type models since there are usually not much info about their personalities and interests. Perhaps her past relationship with Johnny Depp (IEI?) could provide some insights into her type?SLI? Hmm. Don't think so, but that's due to lack of evidence rather than reasons against. Guess I'd have to see her in motion again.
What's your type, eunice?
Anyway, I am IEI.
I don't know much about Kate Moss, except from the negative reports about her getting into rehab. I find it hard to type models since there are usually not much info about their personalities and interests. Perhaps her past relationship with Johnny Depp (IEI?) could provide some insights into her type?SLI? Hmm. Don't think so, but that's due to lack of evidence rather than reasons against. Guess I'd have to see her in motion again.
What's your type, eunice?
Anyway, I am IEI.
Expat have you read anything about Isaac Newton? I'm quite sure he was ENTj, I just recently read about his little quarrel with Leibniz over who was the true father of calculus, lol
Julius Caesar I've always regarded as ESFp, he was a populist, more concerned with his reputation than with making things more efficient, also he was just too good at breaking traditions and getting away with it to be ENTj.
Also I see where aut0 is coming from in his claims that Augustus was INTj vs. ENTj. I'm relatively familiar with Roman History and Augustus has always struck me as an INTj.
I have Suetonius' book right here and haven't read it in a while so will take this as a chance to brush up (citations on important points included) All these points, in the big picture, point towards INTj vs. ENTj
10. Underlying motive was duty (Ti)
16. Fell asleep before/during sea battle, needed to be woken up to give orders
17. He focused on Marc Antony's inability to be a "proper" Roman Citizen when they fought politically
23. Following the Teutonic Forest debacle (in which the Romans lost 3 legions) he kept the anniversary as a day of deep mourning, was seen pounding his head against the wall shouting "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" Never made any future attempt to re-conquer the previously titled province of "Germania"
25. "The two faults which he condemned most strongly in a military commander were haste and recklessness"
33-34. Spent much of his time acting as Judge in courts, cases of adultery and marriage especially interested him, when men in the equestrian order acted in ways that threatened the ideal of the Roman family they were dealt with.
53. Detested being called "Lord" by others, had a man at a play reprimanded the next day after he did so, despite the audience clapping with approval. Avoided leaving/entering city during day so as to avoid social formalities with guardsmen.
66. Slow to make friends, but the ones he did he kept forever
68. Sextus Pompeii jeered at his (Augustus') effeminacy. I've yet to come across an ENTj that anyone would by any standard label "effeminate". Effeminate it a trait, historically, that would more often be used to describe someone quiet, someone seemingly aversive to physical activity.
72-73. Slept in same bed for 40 years, plainly decorated house. Often retreated to private study by himself, to "hide" from the world
93. "showed great respect towards all ancient and long-established foreign rites, but despised the rest.
76. Frugal eating habits, often ate alone, and often would eat simple "common" people food. Would often attend dinners but not eat anything for he had already eaten beforehand (I mention this because Extroverts, in my experience, tend to use meals as a means of naturally socializing and taking pleasure in food with others - Augustus merely partook for it was expected of him)
He was focused very much on consolidation, on securing the borders rather than expanding them. Focus on re-building destroyed temples, on dividing the Roman city for better administration purpose. The only reason a temple was not built and dedicated to him in his lifetime was that he would not allow it.
Very much focused on Public morals - when his (?I believe, daughter) was reported as not acting according to the morality he espoused, he made an example of her. This internal traditionalism is also present in the apparent fact that he honestly thought about restoring the republic during his fits of ill-health, but decided against it because of the danger it might pose to himself and family.
Also while ill-health may not be type-related, how it is dealt with definitely is. By this I mean that the fact that there's so many stories claiming Augustus was "sickly" supports that he is INTj. An ENTj would have done better to hide such weakness from the public - an INTj on the other hand would use it as an excuse to avoid social occasions.
You mentioned how he made lots of speeches and that such a fact hints towards ENTj so I'll mention that having read through Suetonius' history I see no mention of his brilliant oratory skills. He obviously studied rhetoric and he obviously was a member of a distinguished family, thus he would be expected to have sufficient public speaking skill. But I don't think such warrants glorifying his speaking ability.
---Conclusion- all of this information points towards not only a relatively reserved individual, but one that had few qualms with being labeled such. Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France
INFp-Ni
Expat have you read anything about Isaac Newton? I'm quite sure he was ENTj, I just recently read about his little quarrel with Leibniz over who was the true father of calculus, lol
Julius Caesar I've always regarded as ESFp, he was a populist, more concerned with his reputation than with making things more efficient, also he was just too good at breaking traditions and getting away with it to be ENTj.
Also I see where aut0 is coming from in his claims that Augustus was INTj vs. ENTj. I'm relatively familiar with Roman History and Augustus has always struck me as an INTj.
I have Suetonius' book right here and haven't read it in a while so will take this as a chance to brush up (citations on important points included) All these points, in the big picture, point towards INTj vs. ENTj
10. Underlying motive was duty (Ti)
16. Fell asleep before/during sea battle, needed to be woken up to give orders
17. He focused on Marc Antony's inability to be a "proper" Roman Citizen when they fought politically
23. Following the Teutonic Forest debacle (in which the Romans lost 3 legions) he kept the anniversary as a day of deep mourning, was seen pounding his head against the wall shouting "Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions!" Never made any future attempt to re-conquer the previously titled province of "Germania"
25. "The two faults which he condemned most strongly in a military commander were haste and recklessness"
33-34. Spent much of his time acting as Judge in courts, cases of adultery and marriage especially interested him, when men in the equestrian order acted in ways that threatened the ideal of the Roman family they were dealt with.
53. Detested being called "Lord" by others, had a man at a play reprimanded the next day after he did so, despite the audience clapping with approval. Avoided leaving/entering city during day so as to avoid social formalities with guardsmen.
66. Slow to make friends, but the ones he did he kept forever
68. Sextus Pompeii jeered at his (Augustus') effeminacy. I've yet to come across an ENTj that anyone would by any standard label "effeminate". Effeminate it a trait, historically, that would more often be used to describe someone quiet, someone seemingly aversive to physical activity.
72-73. Slept in same bed for 40 years, plainly decorated house. Often retreated to private study by himself, to "hide" from the world
93. "showed great respect towards all ancient and long-established foreign rites, but despised the rest.
76. Frugal eating habits, often ate alone, and often would eat simple "common" people food. Would often attend dinners but not eat anything for he had already eaten beforehand (I mention this because Extroverts, in my experience, tend to use meals as a means of naturally socializing and taking pleasure in food with others - Augustus merely partook for it was expected of him)
He was focused very much on consolidation, on securing the borders rather than expanding them. Focus on re-building destroyed temples, on dividing the Roman city for better administration purpose. The only reason a temple was not built and dedicated to him in his lifetime was that he would not allow it.
Very much focused on Public morals - when his (?I believe, daughter) was reported as not acting according to the morality he espoused, he made an example of her. This internal traditionalism is also present in the apparent fact that he honestly thought about restoring the republic during his fits of ill-health, but decided against it because of the danger it might pose to himself and family.
Also while ill-health may not be type-related, how it is dealt with definitely is. By this I mean that the fact that there's so many stories claiming Augustus was "sickly" supports that he is INTj. An ENTj would have done better to hide such weakness from the public - an INTj on the other hand would use it as an excuse to avoid social occasions.
You mentioned how he made lots of speeches and that such a fact hints towards ENTj so I'll mention that having read through Suetonius' history I see no mention of his brilliant oratory skills. He obviously studied rhetoric and he obviously was a member of a distinguished family, thus he would be expected to have sufficient public speaking skill. But I don't think such warrants glorifying his speaking ability.
---Conclusion- all of this information points towards not only a relatively reserved individual, but one that had few qualms with being labeled such. Personally I believe an example of an ENTj leader would be King Louis XIV (Sun King) of France
Caesar always seemed like a good tactician but a poor long range strategist, which could point to ISTj.
Caesar always seemed like a good tactician but a poor long range strategist, which could point to ISTj.
kate moss is interesting. i've seen her typed as ILI on some other boards, but i'm not entirely willing to type female INTps. i think she comes off as a dynamic type as well. she seems to have the innate ability to get herself into shit like many types with
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XInXQGqxu-0[/youtube]
kate moss is interesting. i've seen her typed as ILI on some other boards, but i'm not entirely willing to type female INTps. i think she comes off as a dynamic type as well. she seems to have the innate ability to get herself into shit like many types with
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XInXQGqxu-0[/youtube]
She seems like an ENFj. She seems like a Fe ego type. She is very emotional and gets excited rather easily.
Achtung Baby.
She seems like an ENFj. She seems like a Fe ego type. She is very emotional and gets excited rather easily.
Achtung Baby.
my main objection here is that she doesn't exactly seem... like
my main objection here is that she doesn't exactly seem... like
she's hot and has nice nipples...
she's hot and has nice nipples
Johnny Depp looks S. Maybe SEI (conflicting) or SEE (activity). Would have to study him a little.
As for Kate Moss' real life, heh, I know little about the personalities and interests of most celebrities. But people are complicated. Someone could be manifesting and identifying "deeper" functions at any given time, for any number of reasons. Sometimes one can develop so much, or get hung up on developing certain functions, that their original ones may seem obscured ... but they're still there, at the root. I like going by V.I.
I'd like to suggest another ENTj: Katherine Hepburn. She's some featured star of the month on TCM (USA). I've watched her and Cary Grant in two different movies now, the last two evenings. (Dang, how many films have they done together?!) Never her saw in motion before. What an intriguing persona! Cary is most certainly ESFp. So if she is ENTj ... well, that would account for their energy together in these films. Activity, indeed. But I could be wrong about her. I see similarities between her, Kate Moss, and Jodie Foster. Yeah, ENFj is a temptation. I saw Katherine typed as such on another site. But she's not quite it. The energy I see much better matches ENTj. It's interesting to consider how she manifests the "female" role - the emotionality, etc. It seems odd, on her. No doubt, the social roles and expectations for women in her time had a large impact on the qualities she'd manifest in films. See, there are always mitigating factors. Were she an actress today, I could easily see her take on some tough-minded leadership roles instead. I've seen some of these tendencies subtly manifest even in these couple of movies.
OK, here she is!
Ohh, they're describing her on TV now - "she bucked the system" - "wore pants" - "relentless and tough in her demands of other actors" - "knew who she was" - "she could do it all" ... ah HAaaaaaaa ... and then, they mention her extraordinary on-screen chemistry with Spencer Tracy. OK, I *WANT* to just say, "yeah! obviously an ISFj!" so I'll leave that up to the reader to decide for his/herself.
LOL, now they're showing an interview of her on TV, in her later years - she's telling everyone what to do! As I watch the "real" her in action - yup, her energy is totally ENTj.
Johnny Depp looks S. Maybe SEI (conflicting) or SEE (activity). Would have to study him a little.
As for Kate Moss' real life, heh, I know little about the personalities and interests of most celebrities. But people are complicated. Someone could be manifesting and identifying "deeper" functions at any given time, for any number of reasons. Sometimes one can develop so much, or get hung up on developing certain functions, that their original ones may seem obscured ... but they're still there, at the root. I like going by V.I.
I'd like to suggest another ENTj: Katherine Hepburn. She's some featured star of the month on TCM (USA). I've watched her and Cary Grant in two different movies now, the last two evenings. (Dang, how many films have they done together?!) Never her saw in motion before. What an intriguing persona! Cary is most certainly ESFp. So if she is ENTj ... well, that would account for their energy together in these films. Activity, indeed. But I could be wrong about her. I see similarities between her, Kate Moss, and Jodie Foster. Yeah, ENFj is a temptation. I saw Katherine typed as such on another site. But she's not quite it. The energy I see much better matches ENTj. It's interesting to consider how she manifests the "female" role - the emotionality, etc. It seems odd, on her. No doubt, the social roles and expectations for women in her time had a large impact on the qualities she'd manifest in films. See, there are always mitigating factors. Were she an actress today, I could easily see her take on some tough-minded leadership roles instead. I've seen some of these tendencies subtly manifest even in these couple of movies.
OK, here she is!
Ohh, they're describing her on TV now - "she bucked the system" - "wore pants" - "relentless and tough in her demands of other actors" - "knew who she was" - "she could do it all" ... ah HAaaaaaaa ... and then, they mention her extraordinary on-screen chemistry with Spencer Tracy. OK, I *WANT* to just say, "yeah! obviously an ISFj!" so I'll leave that up to the reader to decide for his/herself.
LOL, now they're showing an interview of her on TV, in her later years - she's telling everyone what to do! As I watch the "real" her in action - yup, her energy is totally ENTj.
Yeah. From what little I've seen of her, #1) she doesn't V.I. like an ENFj at all (HEH HEH), #2) she doesn't strike me as the type who is all-concerned about "propriety in lieu of idealized social relations" ... which seems normative for ENFjs. On the contrary, it seems she'd have more of a "here I am, take-it-or-leave-it" perspective regarding the public's opinion of her and her personal ethics (whatever they may be). ENFjs appear so group-socially conscientious. When I saw Kate on TV at some department store shindig as some new fashion line of hers was being unveiled, and she hobnobbed among the mannequins in the store windows as the public looked on from the streets, she seemed to be caught up in her own world of ideas rather than concerned about any kind of public reaction. It's like it wouldn't even matter whether the crowd was there or not. But that was just in a brief clip.my main objection here is that she doesn't exactly seem... like
Wish I could see the video! I'm visiting with a relative who's got terribly slow dial-up, so there's no point in attempting to run that clip for now.It's hard enough posting! Maybe in a week.
Yeah. From what little I've seen of her, #1) she doesn't V.I. like an ENFj at all (HEH HEH), #2) she doesn't strike me as the type who is all-concerned about "propriety in lieu of idealized social relations" ... which seems normative for ENFjs. On the contrary, it seems she'd have more of a "here I am, take-it-or-leave-it" perspective regarding the public's opinion of her and her personal ethics (whatever they may be). ENFjs appear so group-socially conscientious. When I saw Kate on TV at some department store shindig as some new fashion line of hers was being unveiled, and she hobnobbed among the mannequins in the store windows as the public looked on from the streets, she seemed to be caught up in her own world of ideas rather than concerned about any kind of public reaction. It's like it wouldn't even matter whether the crowd was there or not. But that was just in a brief clip.my main objection here is that she doesn't exactly seem... like
Wish I could see the video! I'm visiting with a relative who's got terribly slow dial-up, so there's no point in attempting to run that clip for now.
rick has katherine hepburn and spencer tracy typed as IEE-SLI pair.
i don't know a thing about either of them.
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