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Thread: INTjs dealing with depression

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    Default INTjs dealing with depression

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    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    I never listen to anybody's advice unless there's some theoretical working beneath it that I can see. Unless your ideas are sound and not simply intuitive conejectures, your advice probably won't influence him much.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Find him a good mirror partner that he respects and trust ... I had an INTj roommate in college who had all sort of problems, and would always give him advice ...

    Like for example, I asked him why he always seem so withdrawn, quiet, and passive; and he says that he wants to get through life unnoticed or something. So I start telling him he needs to be more assertive, and recommended he go play chicken with random strangers on the sidewalk outside. Well, he appreciated the advice, but did not try it.

    Then later we got into this talk about how he does not understand girls. So, I tell him that is does not matter what girls say, it is what they do. And I told him that he should quit worrying about what comes about of a girls mouth and focus more on what a girl is actually physically doing and whether she is moving physically closer and farther away.

    He listened of course, taking he had seen my ways with women, which typically got me into trouble. But, I never told him that ...

    But then again, he flipping got invited to this girls birthday party, who ironically was an ISFp and we shared the same exact birthday. Man, I got pretty depressed over that ... It turns out they invited him and not me because they never got the impression that I liked any of them.

    So, the moral of the story is that INTjs have nothing to complain about, especially when they are the ones getting invited to sweet ISFp girl birthday parties and I am all alone being depressed ... Lucky INTj!

    And he does not need a woman, what he needs is an ENTp to befriend and show him the other side of the coin; that is my suggestion anyhow.

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    Yeah, but you have to make sure the other side of the coin is clean or he might just end up getting disgusted.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    When I'm depressed the reasons usually are lack of interaction with close friends (feeling) and lack of active purpose in life (sensing, to some degree).

    The thing is to stimulate those fuctions. That withdrawing tendancy just makes things worse; I've been there. The hard part is making the move to do something, because I feel like I don't have any energy.

    My advice is: try to get your friend involved in some sort of project. If purpose and interaction are what he needs, that would probably do it. Don't try to force him or hype him into it, like MysticSonic said: make sense! BTW, what type are you?

    I know I talk about First Aid a lot, but that's because I feel like it has saved me. I have more confidence, purpose, and people around me who appreciate me. It HAS been really hard sometimes to make in effort in areas that I'm not naturally talented in, but I'm getting better and I'm less often depressed.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    I agree with XcaliburGirl. INTJ with depression must do something productive and the activity should contain at least some interaction with other people.

    It might not be an INTJ thing, but I tend to bottle up emotions. Often I see no reason for reacting. When too many unpleasant things have happened, I just don't feel like doing anything. This might lead to depression. Sometimes it's just good to do something agressive or exhausting. Even better if it has an outcome. What to do exactly depends on the personality. I have cleaned the kitchen, swam 1 km, repaired household items that had been bothering me for ages...

    You could invite your friend to go bowling/playing pool/etc. It could be any game where you compete against each other and where you are equally good. Might help.

    Oh well... There are different phases in a depression. there is also one where almost nothing helps. I have no advice for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    mcnew, the problem doesn't seem to be that he doesn't understand others, but that he feels others don't understand him...

    And he does not need a woman, what he needs is an ENTp to befriend and show him the other side of the coin; that is my suggestion anyhow.
    He, he, that is why he has this ENFP friend! ;o)
    Actually, that is not what I ment ... ENTps and INTjs have a tendency to be able to naturally help each other cure depression by helping each to look at things two diffrent ways, and they can relate, sympathize, and give good advice to each other at different angles.

    But, they can have problems in two totally diffrent yet similar ways ... like how I explained the way me and my INTj friend related.

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    Pedro, it is. in fact, i am myself depressed right now.

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    That was a really, really dark little cartoon.

    Why would you make such a thing? Nothing like truely pushing a depressed person off the edge.

    ...."Death is freedom"....


    ..."Go kill yourself".....


    What the heck? Uh...

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    No, No, No... I have plenty of sympothy for the depressed, trust me.

    I wasn't implying that you made the cartoon (I realize it did kind of sound that way). I was just saying that I question the motives of the person who did.

    I agree that many people do not understand the depressed mind, and they definately need to have more sympothy for people who posess it.

    I was simply saying that I could never actaully make a cartoon like that, because it has such a negitive aspect for those already depressed. It sends out that subliminal message of, "Go kill yourself and your troubles will be gone." Then the depressed people who didn't already have that message running through their head do after watching the cartoon.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I didn't make it... it's from mind distortion.net (read the reason why the guy created it on the main site).

    My purpose was to show people what it is like to be depressed (in a way that they can understand) because until you have been there you have no sympathy for people who are depressed. I don't think people realize how many walking dead are out there waiting for proof that they shouldn't end their misery, maybe this will wake them up and/or push people who haven't been depressed into it so it can act as a refining fire on them and force them ever closer to the end of all things. People are too content in their banalities... they need to expunge them.

    Hopefully Kim will better understand her friend's situation by seeing that video also.
    It's a nice effort, but honestly I have no doubt that it will fail.

    Most people simply can't understand depression and they can't even imagine why someone would even consider doing what the guy in the cartoon did. They tend to think that depression is an affectation, an attempt to get attention, a weakness -- that depressed people simply have "to get their act together", and that what they need is a good kick.

    For example -- the husband of a very dear friend of mine has been depressed for 5 years now and it's very hard on her. The advice her best friends are giving her is to give him an ultimatum -- either he snaps out of it or in six months she's leaving him. Now you can imagine how a depressed person would react to that.


    She knows better - she's an INFJ, by the way - but I think that advice represents well how most people would react.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Being depressed sucks. I have been there. For me it's seasonal. I'm trying to learn new things to prevent it. This year I felt the huge risk of falling into the same deep hole. I felt the anxiety for a few weeks, but fortunately avoided depression. Usually my depression starts in about February/March and lasts until 2-3 weeks after the sun has come out. The winters are quite dark in Estonia. Many people feel the sun deprivation.

    Because it's seasonal, I don't know any good tricks to end depression. I have better days when I succeed in reminding myself how many people need me in their lives. I need to feel appreciated and loved. Also I need to feel successful to get anything done. It's not very helpful that most of my friends are guys with a common hobby. I can't really talk about depression with them. And when I can't talk about that, I get the feeling that they don't care about me and I feel like I have no friends at all... That is not a good thought for a depressed person. I can talk about it with my sister (ENFJ) and my boyfriend (INTP). I think they are the reason why I managed to avoid depression this year. Talking does help. Also do everything and anything that might make you feel better about yourself. There is no quick-fix, but doing many helpful things will gradually make the world a better place.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    for me, the depression catalyst is usually a feeling that i'm going in the wrong direction in life, that i've made a wrong turn and then feel powerless to change my path, trapped on a life path i despise because it is taking me far from my dreams and where i am continually being asked to compromise my values and dignity. also, a feeling that i am in the wrong place, where my talents are being wasted, and so i feel i've failed myself for making a choice that has wasted so much time.

    well, something like that. it's quite hard to explain, and probably i do not understand it completely yet anyway.

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    I just don't know if I should bring up the topic of depression in a conversation (I will see him in two weeks) or not. He already feels so out of place in this world and I don't want him to think that I would treat him any different if we do have a conversation about it. Does that make sense?
    People usually think that if you are depressed you don't want anyone around you and that's totally wrong!
    In these moments it is recommended to show lots of support and affection, so Kim and everyone else a little emotional support would do miracles!
    In my case it happened like this.
    I was becoming more and more alone and it seems no one was there near me to understand me and to talk about. And what's worse I wasn't even aware of what was happening to me. (I was 14 or 15 at the time)
    And maybe that's why this depression period has prolonged so much
    But I am alright now I guess, struggling on my own to get to the surface...

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    Thanks for your concern, Megan
    But really now I am myself again and I can understand my personality better and others as well
    And as an INTj I can assure you that it's hard to convince them to call on any kind of help, especially on profesisonal one
    I guess we can be called proud somehow

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    And as an INTj I can assure you that it's hard to convince them to call on any kind of help, especially on profesisonal one

    Thank you for your input!
    So what kind of emotional support is helpful? Do you have any suggestions? As I said, with him my intuition of what's appropriate reaches its limits because he is incredibly hard to read...I don't want to cross any boundaries or be smothering.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Kim
    First of all I should say he is lucky to have a friend like you

    Let's see, so you say
    it always seems as if socializing really exhausts him.
    and also
    at this point he really avoids any type of interaction unless it's with close friends (and coworkers because he can't help it).
    Kim, I think it's nothing serious with him, I hope so, it's just part of his personality, this tiring or exhaustion feeling
    Probably that he needs some time to fill up his batteries, as you say he used to have both a girlfriend and a job that dried all his energy away
    And the interaction with close friends often requires little effort on his side so that's why he keeps away for a while from the rest of the people

    But please whatever it is you just don't share his bad mood when you are together. Just imagine if he feels bad you are sad also, it will just make his mood even worse
    Show yourself happy and draw his attention to the positive aspects in life, he tends to see the negative ones, you ask him "but why not like this?",
    I mean the good part and so on. It has to be a permanent debate
    The idea is don't let him sink in the negative thoughts
    Praise him whenever he said or done something positive. This will improve his self-confidence. But always focus on the type of behaviour or attitude, not on the person
    Also like it already has been discussed, involve him in activities to interact with others, like for example to practice some team sports or whatever you know he enjoys
    Even if he rejects the idea at first , don't give up. Invite him whenever is possible to do things together, you know normal stuff
    But you know keep his pace, don't demand too much from him

    And don't be afraid that you might be intrusive or something, there is no such thing. Just be yourself in your relation with him and don't treat him differently :wink:
    This will also be his wish

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    Not to be insensitive, but is there anyone on here who has never had depression?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Not to be insensitive, but is there anyone on here who has never had depression?
    I guess it depends on if you mean "has gone through a period where they are feeling depressed" or if you mean bona fide clinical depression. Though I imagine the debates could go on for a long time about the differences and/or existence of either. If you mean the former, who on earth hasn't? If the latter, me for one. I've had depressed periods (a.k.a. high school ), but not "real" depression.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
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    I've been down, but I've never had depression.
    ENFP - Ethical Subtype.
    In touch with semireality.

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    I happened to read an article about depression.
    It said that 1 out of 5 people get depressed at least once in a lifetime.
    Did anyone of you know that?

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    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Kristiina, have you thought of trying a full spectrum light? I hear they're quite effective and have been meaning to get one myself...

    It's been said that unless aperson has experienced depression, there is not way they can nderstand it... this is very true, but I think people tend to confuse "being depressed" for true depression. When you're beyond the point of wanting to feel better, you're truly depressed. I'm not saying that you NEVER wish you'd feel better, but overall. Hopelessness and helplessness are the two main ingredients...

    BTW, for all who have any type of brain disorder... eat more protein!
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    Kim,

    I'm INTJ now being treated for depression. The first time I could talk to my wife about it was August after I had a severe mental issue. She told me that I had been depressed for years and everyone (but me) knew. When I asked why no one had told me she said that they had and I'd told them to get lost or mind their own business.

    I think you should raise it - you might get through - but expect the rebuttal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    It might not be an INTJ thing, but I tend to bottle up emotions. Often I see no reason for reacting.
    You guys and the emotions...
    I have seen INTJs display emotions and it was so sweet and lovely and after that they hid them more fiercely than ever before.
    Excuse me? Those INTj's guys which show these 'sweet and lovely emotions', do you know how succesfull they are when they share sweet and lovely emotions with woman? Not very, but they make such nice friends.....sugar nice? Do consider that you might be part of a boundery problem for him, because either way you look at it, your personas relate. I see no reason why I would wan't a woman in my life to tell me about my 'emotional problems' while at same time sharing "lovely cards" and whatnot if there isn't anything going on in the first place. Or are you his therapist? Do you pitty him or care for him? Why would he actually care about what you think? Do you feel sorry for him? I don't like being felt sorry for, unless you actually somehow lovingly _show you really care for him_, which you say you don't for him.
    Logical-Intuitive Extravert (ENTj)
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    Ok, so you only allow people to care about your well-being when you can sleep with them?

    This guy is my friend, obviously depressed and I wonder if there is anything I can do. Now where is the problem, exactly?



    [/quote]
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Ok, so you only allow people to care about your well-being when you can sleep with them?

    This guy is my friend, obviously depressed and I wonder if there is anything I can do. Now where is the problem, exactly?
    YOU. You are sick of being "sweet"? What, do you think you are always an angel? He needs to grow up and take care of _his own well being_, not you. I already told you. Why should he even care about your help the slightest if he doesn't actually feel you care about him? He is a man, right? What's actually his problem hanging around you then, because I seem to be getting some of your 'sweet and lovely emotion' vibes too, that will depress and drain most guys very quickly, "we and our emotions". The last thing he needs is a mom. Perhaps that is his problem, taking care of his own well-being. Maybe he should eat better, do some workout, taking better care of himself. It's clear to me that he does not and will not ever benefit from you being his sugar nice emotional friend. I do not accept your being nice and sweet helping him any bit. He needs to grow up or you both need to grow up.
    Logical-Intuitive Extravert (ENTj)
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    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by universal
    YOU. You are sick of being "sweet"? What, do you think you are always an angel? He needs to grow up and take care of _his own well being_, not you. I already told you. Why should he even care about your help the slightest if he doesn't actually feel you care about him? He is a man, right?
    Ok, let's see here. I have known this guy for a long time. He is my friend and has been my friend for a long time. We were never romantically involved and I'm very sure that there was never an interest on his part. He very much enjoys my company and I very much enjoy his. I live on the other end of the country. He knows I care about him because, you know, friends care about each other even if they don't sleep with each other. Wow....

    What's actually his problem hanging around you then, because I seem to be getting some of your 'sweet and lovely emotion' vibes too, that will depress and drain most guys very quickly, "we and our emotions". The last thing he needs is a mom. Perhaps that is his problem, taking care of his own well-being. Maybe he should eat better, do some workout, taking better care of himself.
    Let me clarify: "You and your emotions" related to an entirely different issue and it seems as if it entirely rubbed you the wrong way for some reasons. Is there some sort of projection going on here? And no, rest assured, I don't make him depressed.

    It's clear to me that he does not and will not ever benefit from you being his sugar nice emotional friend. I do not accept your being nice and sweet helping him any bit. He needs to grow up or you both need to grow up.
    Ok, I will tell him that: " Sorry, honey, I'm too sugary sweet to benefit you. Forget all the years we have been friends and were there for each other. You are a male INTj and I'm too sweet to be your friend. I will depress you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bits
    Kim,

    I'm INTJ now being treated for depression. The first time I could talk to my wife about it was August after I had a severe mental issue. She told me that I had been depressed for years and everyone (but me) knew. When I asked why no one had told me she said that they had and I'd told them to get lost or mind their own business.

    I think you should raise it - you might get through - but expect the rebuttal.
    Thank you. The irony of it is that my (ESFp) friend told me the other day that I should get counseling because I have been pretty overwhelmed with things.

    I asked him if he is feeling depressed and he said that he kind of is. We talked about it for a little bit and it was a good conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    It's been said that unless aperson has experienced depression, there is not way they can nderstand it... this is very true, but I think people tend to confuse "being depressed" for true depression. When you're beyond the point of wanting to feel better, you're truly depressed. I'm not saying that you NEVER wish you'd feel better, but overall. Hopelessness and helplessness are the two main ingredients...
    Joy, I'm a bit wary of attempts to categorize depression. I think it comes in all shapes and sizes and where does being depressed end and true depression start? I'm bringing it up because I have seen people telling themselves that they don't need help because they are not really depressed and everything just spiraled downwards. My sister was one of them. When she told me that she throws up every morning before going to work and wouldn't mind being hit by a car I told her that she MUST see someone. She would not have said of herself to have depression.

    What can we really know about each other's personal hell...?[/quote]

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    Psychiatrists don't have the time to take each person's case to heart and treat the cause, they only focus on the symptoms with drugs putting a band-aid on the problem.

    This is not a holistic approach to curing the depressed. For example, i am currently unemployed and could diagnose myself as having the "unemployment blues" thus employment is the treatment but what is the cure?? the cure is a passion-centred lifestyle.

    Maybe i'm just cynical but i consider employment to be analogous to smoking whereby we know it's bad for our health but it gets us through the day.
    Remember to keep things simple and not any simpler like Einstein once said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim (nlo)
    Ok, let's see here. I have known this guy for a long time. He is my friend and has been my friend for a long time. We were never romantically involved and I'm very sure that there was never an interest on his part. He very much enjoys my company and I very much enjoy his. I live on the other end of the country. He knows I care about him because, you know, friends care about each other even if they don't sleep with each other. Wow....
    There is no need for explainging me the concept of friendship. I could be "guilty" of projection, but I have my concerns based on principles. I useally have friendships with my buddies, that's all. I did know a woman once who was an enfp like yourself. She sucked me into some kind of fairy tale of friendship for about a month, I think this friend relation between an enfp and an intj can be _very_ harmfull because you seem to encourige only elloborating on the ideals of this type, it has something very selfish to itself in my eyes. Based on an ever providing INTj. Unhealthy, I can't explain, I'm pretty new to socionics, there must be a technical term for it. It is if as denying something to the INTj. I for the life of me don't get why an INTj guy would want an enfp woman _friend_ in pretty much long parts of his life unless he likes to live inside his ideals only. A sure road to madness or fantasy land. You have buddies for helping you out, not ENFP woman who values his insight so much. It does not build his plans, it only satifies an outside persona, yours. I'd like to take care of my health too, perhaps I am more concerned about myself then your 'buddy' is. His depression might be a sign of that. In my worldview, man are sexual beings just like you. If you would go stand naked before him and tell him you want to have sex, would he say "Sorry, I just really value our friendship - it would ruin our established unique undestanding"? Perhaps you are disgusting in his eyes or he thinks who cares what the heck, let this silly woman be? Sure, I understand helping each other now and then, but being only friends... Look, he is a man, I just don't get it. It sounds like some old man in pampers with a woman having him on a leech to me.

    So erm, that means my question is: does he wear pampers and do you have him on a leech? :wink:

    Look, do you exchange fantasy ideals and concepts, philospohy etc? because that's a big enfp trap in my eyes. Not on purpose perhaps, but potentially very harmfull for an INTj if he let's himself into it too much. That is my concern, because he obviously cannot handle you.

    Let me clarify: "You and your emotions" related to an entirely different issue and it seems as if it entirely rubbed you the wrong way for some reasons. Is there some sort of projection going on here? And no, rest assured, I don't make him depressed.
    Still, you said it. I would not want you around me as a 'buddy' or whatever. Maybe he gets a kick out of it, I just don't know. There seems to be a fascination for him from you, but a very selfish sided one.

    Ok, I will tell him that: " Sorry, honey, I'm too sugary sweet to benefit you. Forget all the years we have been friends and were there for each other. You are a male INTj and I'm too sweet to be your friend. I will depress you."
    Some people need to simply help themselves. You sound like an older ENFP who has seen the light through INTJ's "wisdom". I just can't get that projection out of me.
    Logical-Intuitive Extravert (ENTj)
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim (nlo)
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    It's been said that unless aperson has experienced depression, there is not way they can nderstand it... this is very true, but I think people tend to confuse "being depressed" for true depression. When you're beyond the point of wanting to feel better, you're truly depressed. I'm not saying that you NEVER wish you'd feel better, but overall. Hopelessness and helplessness are the two main ingredients...
    Joy, I'm a bit wary of attempts to categorize depression. I think it comes in all shapes and sizes and where does being depressed end and true depression start? I'm bringing it up because I have seen people telling themselves that they don't need help because they are not really depressed and everything just spiraled downwards. My sister was one of them. When she told me that she throws up every morning before going to work and wouldn't mind being hit by a car I told her that she MUST see someone. She would not have said of herself to have depression.

    What can we really know about each other's personal hell...?
    I totally see your point here. I agree that many depressed people don't realize that they are depressed. Even when shown the evidence, they often blame it on other things and are reluctant to accept that it's not their fault or merely the result of their circumstances, it's an actual disorder. I had a particularly difficult time accepting the fact that I was depressed, and I know others who were/are like that, too.

    The last thing I wanted to do is minimalize anyone's depression, regardless of it's manifestations or seriousness. All depression is serious.

    I guess what I was saying is that people who go through rough times should NEVER tell a person with serious depression to "snap out of it" or even think that they can begin to understand what it's like. Everyone has rough times, but most people do not actually have depression.
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    There are so many depressed people but I think that its because there is less perceived need for certain people. a thousand years ago everyone pulled their weight, they were too busy working to bitch and moan about life. but when you have nothing to do with yourself, people dont want to be around you, people dont want anything to do with you and you have no idea what your purpose is on this earth, what's the point? There are so many demands and obligations that we have to fulfill in order to keep a family together as well as our own lives, then we die, and nothing is permanent.

    We also get trapped in what is expected, what is acceptible, and what we really are. we get this ideal of normal, which is made out of our weak areas (ego ideal/super-ego). A normal person parties, has sex and is 'tough' or breakdances, or does this or that. whatever you're exposed to. a bad day at the square dance festival for one person, or a date rape at a rave for another. people go into things expecting something, but nomatter where you go you'll always find suffering. suffering is everywhere and it is just the process of impermanance showing itself to you. its all fleeting, like music.

    I know how tough life can be for INTj's, its difficult to satisfy them, everything is an endless obstacle. But they just need that positive stimulation.

    I wonder what the suicide rates are for each type.

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    I'll add

    I'm not saying chemical or anatomical things don't play a part in depression, but i think that most of it is environmental and that the brain could make itself "sick" if it is constantly exposed to negative stimuli.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waddlesworth
    I wonder what the suicide rates are for each type.
    In 20 years, I'll bet we'll have plenty of those statistics to go around.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Frankly, everything I'm reading here just screams projection.
    Yes, correct. Some of it is projection, but not in any uncontrolled way. I am not screaming though.

    No need to worry about how my friends feel about me. They are all grown up and not held at gunpoint.
    You just totally and utterly don't get it. You talk about feelings, which have nothing to do with it. A "discussion" with you is impossible from my point of view. But I am pretty sure you get too many bad feelings from me by now, I don't want to ruin your thread any more. It's not fun. I hope our little "discussion" now stops or I fear you are going to go after me, holding me at gunpoint. :wink:
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    Your attempt at playing the supervision card on me is lame, if not outright amusing. The bottom line is that you don't believe in friendship between men and women. I do. So what to make of that?
    I don't know what a supervision card is Kim and I am not playing a game. I really don't know. About friendship between man and woman, I learned myself to explore both the intellect and sexuality at the same time, this balances my character out in a more healthy way and benefits both. That should also make ENFP "friends" allot more interesting, but you don't want to deny them their whole beings. Man are sexual beings Kim. Owing each other favours, sure, but that don't mean you sent cards or talk about feelings and whatever. You limit this to a rather sexist viewpoint yourself actually. That's just totally short sighted and I am telling you that with the best interests involved. Perhaps you fail to grasp my point. I actually think you are correct that there can be a learning aspect for you. But you are stuck only in the intellectual part of that. In turn that can make it more dull or even negative for the INTJ man, especially when the ideals ignore each others complete beings. When you integrate this learning or rewarding experience with both the body and the mind, whole new levels of experience arrive. I guess when some INTJ learn the value of being very sexual, they can reward the world with that - and reward you too. Do you value that insight or do you scoff it off? I guess you do. It's not about being sexist, it can be very freeing for an INTJ because it releaves them from many things. Denying sexuality can be very harmfull and I know all too well. So yeah, you are actually telling me that it can be good to learn from INTJ and you are right. I guess few woman are lucky enough to share my stuff. Maybe that is what you are learning me in a strange way. I guess I could better say, you don't know what you are missing. I guess I am more lucky then I realize with my worldview. Maybe some ENFP woman will experience it as well some time.

    In your own words, why don't you just accept the fact that what went right for me can also be beneficial and a rewarding experience to others? I certainly believe your own relating to INTJ's can be a learning experience to great extend for you, but you are stuck in something I don't want to be part of, do you get my point? I mean it well. There is more to intellect in my view and I am not talking about having sex all around or checking out cute girls. I am still part of the INTJ nature.

    Yes we come from two different worlds and didn't I already ask you to stop the discussion? Do you insist on dragging it on? Because as you said, it is rather pointless.

    Why not just accept the fact that what probably went wrong for you might be a beneficial and rewarding experience for others?
    What is there to accept about it, that's true by nature. It seems to me you look at this from your own point of view only - that's my irk all the time. From my point of view you block the body from the mind. You should at the same time acknowledge that under some curcomstances that can be rather unhealthy. You take that as critic, whereas I make a suggestion that it can be a new INTJ experience or whatever you call it. You fail to appreciate that, which makes me wonder what the guy actually benefits from you in return.

    Maybe you'll get it when you are past the hang-out-with-buddies-and-check-out-cute-chicks" stage.
    I'm rather past that stage of your impression a long time ago silly Kim.

    I really think we live in entirely different worlds, which renders this somewhat meaningless in my mind.
    Yeah, so again, let's stop it. I mean, I believe we live in entirely different worlds, it renders this somewhat meaningless in my mind.

    Have fun in your world and all that you learn in it.
    Logical-Intuitive Extravert (ENTj)
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  39. #39
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    Are you suggesting I should start a romantic relationship with him?

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    Are you suggesting I should start a romantic relationship with him?
    I hope you asked that question in a sincere way, because if you did, you have gained some of my trust. If you did not and planned to use it to blow me away with your guns, I won't reply to you anymore. Don't bother me unless you actually care.

    What I am suggesting is that you should not deny a man his sexuality for such a long time, I think it's bloody mean and very unhealthy if you relate to him for so long. Often INTJ man are rather messed up with that and how they relate to woman. In case you are not attracted to him at all, then perhaps now you understand why? So maybe you are a person who likes to continue to suck some more out of his intellect, drain him? Off-coarse YOU would need to have any feelings first, else this is all really really stupid talk. Feel free to continue to explore his mind, but what I am saying is that he is a whole human being, just like you. As friends you can care for a guy by owing him things, little stuff to do, being friends, not by being a mother in my view. If you relate to a guy for a long time and send cards and talk about relations, how can that man truly enjoy your company? Nothing wrong with helping each other out sometimes, don't get me wrong. What guy would ask for a friendly mom in his life? Frankly Kim, I find it hard to believe you would go from being a friend to something else, it has dragged on for too long. Or I am wrong and you have feelings and in that case I am going to shut up about this and stop giving you any advice moving on. I mean, I am not stupid, your feelings are the highest indicator of things. Whatever way, the man has to figure things out for himself - no matter what you do or who he relates to and in what way. Caring for a man is not done trough sending cards, what the hell? You should also consider that it can be a matter of him being able to take care of himself first. Not all grown ups are that grown up. Trust your feelings, not my reasoning or some forum posts. Be sincere to me as I am to you, otherwise, please stop bothering me. I speak from the heart and learn your value allong the way.
    Logical-Intuitive Extravert (ENTj)
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