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Thread: Quadra cycles: discrete or continuous?

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    Default Quadra cycles: discrete or continuous?

    We have Extroverted Intuition on the left,

    and Introverted Logic on the right, and

    in between of those two, the type we know as INTj, the Alpha IJ type.

    What I want to know is this: is it possible to isolate a state in between of the INTj and 'Extroverted Intuition' that can be recognized as a motion from Extroverted Intuition to INTj?

    OR is -> INTj -> all there is to the model?

    In other words are information cycles discrete or continuous?

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    In other words are information cycles discrete or continuous?
    I believe that it is discrete. I believe that there are clear boundaries between the types. But if Smilingeyes is right I think that I must be wrong about that, and vice versa.

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    I think Smilingeyes is right or, rather, I think that

    - A person of a given type alone can fluctuate freely in a given lenght of the type-temperament-curve
    - Interaction with an activity/person/object changes the type in such a way to adjust itself to the wavelenght of the given subject, with the domain given by the segment I was talking about before
    - This means that as an isolate state there is what labcoat defines, but cannot be observed in interaction
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    It's useless to consider the types themselves outside the context of those to whom they apply. I think there is a distinction, even between two comparatives of the accepting subtype or look-a-likes of the producing subtype, but only theoretically; I observe people changing within the lines of type easily enough that at some point it became utterly useless for me to really think of individuals as one type or the other. I think that people usually are, at any given point, on one side or the other of the line distinguishing two types, but people as entities can't be confined to one type, IMO; there's really only a "baseline," the type in which a person spends most of his or her time, which would be the one her or she identifies with the most.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    It's useless to consider the types themselves outside the context of those to whom they apply. I think there is a distinction, even between two comparatives of the accepting subtype or look-a-likes of the producing subtype, but only theoretically; I observe people changing within the lines of type easily enough that at some point it became utterly useless for me to really think of individuals as one type or the other. I think that people usually are, at any given point, on one side or the other of the line distinguishing two types, but people as entities can't be confined to one type, IMO; there's really only a "baseline," the type in which a person spends most of his or her time, which would be the one her or she identifies with the most.
    completely agree

    i think the easy to identify types are:

    EP-Ti EP-Ne EP-Se EP-Fi

    IJ-Ti IJ-Se IJ-Ne IJ-Fi

    son on
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    Agreeing with everything in the thread so far.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    I have no problem with, say, someone being a Ni EJ in terms of dichotomies, and in terms of the behavior as described by them, a Ni ENFj would be similar, or nearly identical, to a Ni ENTj. It's also unproblematic that either type could "flow" along the EJ behavioral curves depending on whether they are focusing on Si, Te etc on a given situation.

    However, in terms of their deeper motivations, or what Rick calls the type "message", or what I have been describing in my Te views thread - an ENFj is clearly different from an ENTj: Beta not Gamma, Ti-Fe rather than Te-Fi, etc, etc. While I can accept the concept of someone changing from ENFj to ENTj in terms of basic motivations, I have difficulty seeing that happening easily, or very often, in the same individual.

    So, while it may be easiest - as FDG said - to type, say, a strong Ti subtype of IXTj as Ti IJ, and that would already explain much of the person's behavior without the need to specificy whether it's an INTj or ISTj, I think that the person will be one of these two types.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    If quadra cycles are continuous, and we represent the cycle as follows:

    Ne------------Ve--------------Se--------------We

    Xi-------------Ti---------------Zi---------------Fi

    What are 'Ve' and 'We'? Mixtures of Ne and Se? What are 'Xi' and 'Zi'?

    What does it mean to 'creatively realize'. Does it mean you move sideways in the model, or just up?

    - I'd tentatively say 'just up', but that means we have some unanswered questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    If quadra cycles are continuous, and we represent the cycle as follows:

    Ne------------Ve--------------Se--------------We

    Xi-------------Ti---------------Zi---------------Fi

    What are 'Ve' and 'We'? Mixtures of Ne and Se? What are 'Xi' and 'Zi'?

    What does it mean to 'creatively realize'. Does it mean you move sideways in the model, or just up?
    At a given point in time, either:

    - You reframe the interval of reference and call the alternate usage of Pe and Xi with another name-function, which is composed by smaller time intervals wich can be reduced to pointsized units at will
    - You take the derivative of the person at a given point in time and you say, that if the person is using Se, then he is ESTp/ISTj/ISFj/ESFp, if he using Ne, then he is ENTp/INTj/INFj/ENFp

    The second approach does not fully allow for type-change with credibility, since it's implicitly stated that type has a time-continuity.

    An objection can be raised in regard to the second point: what if the value of the derivative is zero? I call this an impossibility. In order for a type to interact with the environment, one out of the two Pe-s must be used, and the observervation is included in the set of all possible interactions.
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    If the anwer to my previous question was 'just sideways', is a person who concentrates fully on 'Ti' blind extroverted perception-wise?

    Where lies the distinction between judgment and perception? How do we tell the two apart?

    Is it possible to 'get by' using judgment alone? If not, what freedom would a person with no 'perception' have/lack? Is it possible to do anything using only a judgment function?

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    I look at this thread, then I think about a bunch of russian socionists trying to type Tutankhamun, basset, lollipops, McDonalds and Big Bird and somehow I feel happy. This place has gone far.

    As for what actually happens in the matter of changes, I'd suggest looking at the small cycles first, since they allow the inspection of smaller changes.

    perceptive-extrovert -> democratic-taciturn -> judging introvert -> narrator aristocrat -> perceptive-extrovert

    This cycle is easier to observe in its wholeness in oneself. If you want more depth, try to find what lies at the midpoint between extroversion and taciturnness. Cut and divide until you are happy.
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    Hmm. Asking what the consequences of our new findings were on our assesment of santa claus' type was gonna be my next move. Maybe not a good idea.

    I'll look into the small cycles. It suddenly looks like Reinin's work was far from done when he concluded it. What do you think made the Russians stop researching this?

    On an aside, I've found a Jung quote that seems to describe a Ti dominant person approaching nearer and nearer to the top-Ti state. What's interesting is that Jung describes the Ti function being succeeded by another function, which can be any three of the remaining functions, not just two!

    Quote Originally Posted by C.G. Jung
    Whereas the latter sinks to the level of a mere presentation of facts, the former evaporates into a representation of the unknowable, which is even beyond everything that could be expressed in an image. The presentation of facts has a certain incontestable truth, because the subjective factor is excluded and the facts speak for themselves. Similarly, the representing of the unknowable has also an immediate, subjective, and convincing power, because it is demonstrable from its own existence. The former says 'Est, ergo est' ('It is ; therefore it is') ; while the latter says 'Cogito, ergo cogito' (' I think ; therefore I think'). In the last analysis, introverted thinking arrives at the evidence of its own subjective being, while extraverted thinking is driven to the evidence of its complete identity with the objective fact. For, while the extravert really denies himself in his complete dispersion among objects, the introvert, by ridding himself of each and every content, has to content himself with his mere existence. In both cases the further development of life is crowded out of the domain of thought into the region of other psychic functions which had hitherto existed in relative unconsciousness. The extraordinary impoverishment of introverted thinking in relation to objective facts finds compensation in an abundance of unconscious facts. Whenever consciousness, wedded to the function of thought, confines itself within the smallest and emptiest circle possible -- though seeming to contain the plenitude of divinity -- unconscious phantasy becomes proportionately enriched by a multitude of archaically formed facts, a veritable pandemonium of magical and irrational factors, wearing the particular aspect that accords with the nature of that function which shall next relieve the thought-function as the representative of life. If this should be the intuitive function, the 'other side' will be viewed with the eyes of a Kubin or a Meyrink. If it is the feeling-function, [p. 484] there arise quite unheard of and fantastic feeling-relations, coupled with feeling-judgments of a quite contradictory and unintelligible character. If the sensation-function, then the senses discover some new and never-before-experienced possibility, both within and without the body. A closer investigation of such changes can easily demonstrate the reappearance of primitive psychology with all its characteristic features. Naturally, the thing experienced is not merely primitive but also symbolic; in fact, the older and more primeval it appears, the more does it represent the future truth: since everything ancient in our unconscious means the coming possibility.

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    Default Re: Quadra cycles: discrete or continuous?

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat

    OR is -> INTj -> all there is to the model?
    This is just a notational thing, maybe, but I notice in some of your recent posts that you seem to represent INTj as if were the accepting function and the creative one.

    ?

    As to the general topic of type flexibility, I think that what Socionists sometimes miss is that people associate certain traits and motivations with various activities. Indeed, different motivations, different overall messages, may exist in the same individual...even to the point of being contradictory, and yet a person may happily live with those contradictions.

    People shift as they engage in different activities they enjoy; they don't necessarily apply the same set of skills to every situation. They also shift around different company.

    Does this mean that people, when they shift, are equally strong in several functions, or that they're shifting between strong and weak functions? Not necessarily. Each function in itself involves a large set of related but separate things. A person may be strong in parts (or applications) of Te and part of Fe, for example, but weak in other parts of both Te and Fe.

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    Default Re: Quadra cycles: discrete or continuous?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat

    OR is -> INTj -> all there is to the model?
    This is just a notational thing, maybe, but I notice in some of your recent posts that you seem to represent INTj as if were the accepting function and the creative one.

    ?
    Jonathan, accepting-creating is a completely different issue than what labcoat is talking about here. This notation is in the same direction as the notation for accepting -> creating for all types that have 'process' dichotomy. This notation is opposite for those that have 'result' dichotomy. There is a difference in how these two operate.
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    The functions themselves are obviously discrete because they are set in stone - but in practice they are continuous because the strength of one implies the weakness of another. I think the quadra cycles show how much someone uses at the expense of for example - but I don't think they are directly cooperative. E.g. doesn't 'support' , it appears when is weak.

    If you think the quadra cycles are continuous, it probably means you think the brain actively chooses which function to use, but if you think they are discrete, you probably think the brain utilises functions seemingly by accident, by the pressures of the current moment. (It's possible it could be a mixture of the two - e.g. the brain is already hard-wired for some functions at the expense of others, but it is also able to adapt on the spur of the moment).
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    If the anwer to my previous question was 'just sideways', is a person who concentrates fully on 'Ti' blind extroverted perception-wise?

    Where lies the distinction between judgment and perception? How do we tell the two apart?

    Is it possible to 'get by' using judgment alone? If not, what freedom would a person with no 'perception' have/lack? Is it possible to do anything using only a judgment function?
    Rationality-Irrationality is defined by the total combination of functions being used at the time - a judging function doesn't become 'more' perceiving, though a person can IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    The functions themselves are obviously discrete because they are set in stone.
    Well I think this is one of the key issues. Socionics assumes the functions are discrete. However, each function is described in many ways. For example, Se is described as forcefulness, ability to process lots of sensory data, and a number of other things. Te is described as algorithmic logic, productivity, general factual knowledge, and a number of other things.

    What if someone is strong in some of those things that describe a function, but not all of them? In theory, this is impossible, because Socinoics assumes that each function is one thing, and that all those behaviors are merely the consequences of the actions of one thing. But how can we be sure?

    Maybe each function is merely a cluster of many somewhat related qualities that themselves are correlated but still slightly independent?

    In that case, the discreteness of the functions would be in doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Se is described as forcefulness, ability to process lots of sensory data, and a number of other things.
    Se is essentially about spatial perception of objects, the forcefulness aspect is a consequence of that.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Se is described as forcefulness, ability to process lots of sensory data, and a number of other things.
    Se is essentially about spatial perception of objects, the forcefulness aspect is a consequence of that.
    Could be, but that was just one example. The presumed causation chain that links the many descriptions floating about for each of the functions may not apply to every case. Hence, a person may be strong in just half (say) of the cluster of qualities that make up one function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Se is described as forcefulness, ability to process lots of sensory data, and a number of other things.
    Se is essentially about spatial perception of objects, the forcefulness aspect is a consequence of that.
    Could be, but that was just one example. The presumed causation chain that links the many descriptions floating about for each of the functions may not apply to every case. Hence, a person may be strong in just half (say) of the cluster of qualities that make up one function.
    A nice thing would be to see if, for example, if a person relates to only half the things clustered on Te, then he/she relates to half the things listed on Fe; but if he/she relates to all the things listed on Te, the he/she relates to almost nothing listed on Fe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    The functions themselves are obviously discrete because they are set in stone.
    Well I think this is one of the key issues. Socionics assumes the functions are discrete. However, each function is described in many ways. For example, Se is described as forcefulness, ability to process lots of sensory data, and a number of other things. Te is described as algorithmic logic, productivity, general factual knowledge, and a number of other things.

    What if someone is strong in some of those things that describe a function, but not all of them? In theory, this is impossible, because Socinoics assumes that each function is one thing, and that all those behaviors are merely the consequences of the actions of one thing. But how can we be sure?

    Maybe each function is merely a cluster of many somewhat related qualities that themselves are correlated but still slightly independent?

    In that case, the discreteness of the functions would be in doubt.
    Yes, I agree - I think it's incredibly unlikely that there are very real + equal biological entities in the brain which correlate directly with the functions - when categories are used in science, without direct measurement it's doubtful, but also the chemicals\genes whatever which cause particular function 'behaviours' are unlikely to be static enough to be catergorised in one person, let alone in all humanity. But obviously we can have general behaviours for functions, by comparing similar + contrasting types with each other etc.
    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    A nice thing would be to see if, for example, if a person relates to only half the things clustered on Te, then he/she relates to half the things listed on Fe; but if he/she relates to all the things listed on Te, the he/she relates to almost nothing listed on Fe.
    Yeah, that would be a good experiment. I would agree with your hypothesis.

    In my own case, I identify with Te when it comes to problem solving, finding agreed-upon definitions, applying the scientific method, looking objectively at the external structure of things, debating, figuring out how to make things work. But Te types are supposed to be hyper-productive, business-minded, inclined to follow the most logical external course of action, and I'm much weaker in those areas.

    With Fe, I identify with emotional expression in the artistic realm, detecting the overall "mood" in a situation or work of art, being caring and considerate. However, Fe types are supposed to understand how to fit into the emotions/roles of the group, are supposed to be emotionally expressive in conversation, are supposed to be consciously aware of what they're feeling, and aware of how they relate to people around them, and I'm much weaker in those areas.

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