what works for you?
Delta advice on how to get along with Betas
what works for you?
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Very interesting topic!My take on it would be non-resistant: "tap into your demonstrative as much as possible".
For instance, I would channel my inner Hamlet:
EII needs to bring out their Nostradamus
LSE gotta be more resolute
SLI has to excavate their officer uniform and algebra books.
I know. Just leave us alone!
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
Not be so sensitive.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
Betas and Deltas can get along fine... especially if they're of the same temperament (NF, ST).
Btw, how are you not an INTj or something... you remind me of Sergey Brin.
Sadly I don't understand well spoken english. It seem interesting !
I need to go, I go to the home of an INFp friend for a chat-skype with an ENFj girl
In my experience it's quite easy to go well with your group (being humanitarian or the other one I don't remember the name for LSE, SLE, LSI and SLI. Pragmatist ?).
At this moment I never experienced conflit with LSI or SLE but at the same time idk that much what to say to them (especially SLE). As an INFj it's sometime hard to make ESTp not feeling bad about something (accidentally making them disclose stuff they don't wan't perhaps, I don't know, or perhaps they feel uncouscioulsy "observed" by Fi ???? idk), but at least superficially it's not that "impossible relationship" (gf of the INFp friend is ESTp, we sometime speak together). Staying cool is possible.
As EII, I go along easier with LSI & EIE than IEI & SLE (for the last 2 one, it's more like individual-by-individual, some will be impossible to relate to, while other not, but it's more "steady" with J beta...)
Ne seem well apreciated by Beta (Ne jokes are appreciated but don't enter into too much into Ne reasonning or they will destroy the reasonning lol), more than Te, more than Si then more than Fi (in order). They can take some Fi analyze if there is kinda philosophical question/answer behind that. (All what I said is very limited by my experience, it can be different). Demonstration of weakness DON4T WORK. Share your victory more than your weakness, not in a pretentious way of course. Aside when you need advice and when the person is trusting you (ie good friends).
Actually I find "extinguishment" relationship a very good one, because the two part have some interest to the other, and the two part seem to pinpoint each time some almost uncouscious reasonning/conclusion behind what you say in the same orientation you have (feeling, intuition, thinking or sensing) : so it can be great for personnal awareness of the two part.
It's a bit like quasi identical relationship, aside the fact that when the quasi indentical person give his "opinion" in his term, he show some of your unconscious "motive/reasoning" or whatever a bit like extinguishment but in a far more negative aspect for you, leaving easily the impression that the other person is "unconsciously destroying you". Hopefully it don't appear that much with the INFp friend I spoke about , but Ive known another INFp guy where this posed problems.
And don't be socially an idiot (this advice work even in your own quadra). I know that deprecative/negative joke is often used by delta, this is not the kind of stuff you wan't to say in public when you first meet a beta, or even someone. Silence is still better than this kind of shit.
Last but not the least : useless violence, rage is seen as a weakness for beta too. Ive seen one time a delta who losed his shit while in a party, figthing with a guy, no one know why, and he will no longer be invited to the of party of the INFp guy who organized the party (not the one he tried to kick in the ass). Perhap's weakness isn't the right word, he probably simply didn't comply to the emotionnal atmosphere of the party. Idk.
Last edited by noaydi; 01-21-2017 at 01:22 AM.
don't be so sensitive and just avoid them
i didn't realize this was mbti forum now
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
If working with:
Quasi-Identicals (SLE-LSE, EIE-IEE, IEI-EII, LSI-SLI):
Appreciate you have different time frames in mind and differences in emphasis. If working together on a project, it is good to have a general plan to prevent independently getting the same result twice, but via different means, when it would have been better to co-operate. Often in such cases, one will emphasise something of being of great importance to begin with, with the other not really appreciating the significance, only for them to later realise the something was of great importance.
Super-Egos (SLE-IEE, IEI-SLI, EIE-LSE, LSI-EII)
I think with such relations, each individual understand and respects the ability of the other. Sharing the same temperament, they can readily understand why they do things in a particular order. But they will find that the other clashes rather significantly in terms of values. It is perhaps best not to interfere on matters more in tune with their natural ability and interests (superficially, practical vs. intuitive matters).
It often goes something like this:
*An issue comes up*
INFj: Yeah, well maybe that is also right. How do we know that that isn't right as well? Maybe this is wrong and that is right, we can't be so sure. Let's consider that as well. It's not so simple, it's a bit more complicated than that. Let's keep an open mind.
Me: YOU'RE BEING TOO OPEN-MINDED, STOP BEING SO OPEN-MINDED
INFj: ...
I don't actually say those things out loud, but that's what it feels like. It's the difference between Ne and Ni. Ni gets quite impatient, and just wants to decide on THIS and go with it. While Ne just wants to keep considering some other options. It can never just decide on one thing. It can be quite irritating, especially in a state of more urgency or emergency where it just needs to decide on something and go with it. It's the difference between Decisive vs judicious. Mobilized vs relaxed.
Last edited by Singu; 01-21-2017 at 10:15 PM.
pretty much thumbs up for this. although when they do that brain storming thing usually it means they are looking for a Te answer to tell them what the right thing is to do. -----> extremely frustrating to work beside because they are also so delicate towards ANY kind of Se response (ie: get it DONE)Originally Posted by Singularity
Lol I love Starfall's reply. My str8 girl identical. <3
Yeah there is a lot of one-sided hate towards beta on the forum , historically. Dolphin and a few others have also noticed this. Lots of long rants about how betas were the devil incarnate and the delta was always the innocent & responsible one or something. I was like oh please. It just wasn't deltas doing it either, but became a trend to bully betas. So that's why I created the SJW group 'betas are people too.'If you prick us, do we not bleed!!!
I'm less hopeful though that you can teach people to get along with betas by just lightening up and trying to join in on the witty banter or something because... um what if the other person just hates doing that? It's just too gay for them or something, and they just cannot do it. Annoying yes, but that's the way some people are. Fe polr k0rpsey is the opposite of Fe valuing me. You say to do it like it's easy... and it is, for me. I am the reason witty banter exists in the first place... but a lot of deltas are just stuffy and lack that sense of humor. Perhaps the problem is a lot of beta's witty banter also has a lot of serious crushing criticisms and character assassinations mixed in that hurts people's delta feelings or something. It's really complicated... anyways I do think you are right, just kind of lightening up is helpful but I realize you can't really force or even ask somebody to do that, they will just be gay when they are good and ready and you can only gently coax them to come out of the closet.
And I don't want somebody to half love me or anything like that. Is there even a way to go halfsies with Fe? Go over the top or go home. I figure you either go deep down in the craziness with me- or you just be honest and say you don't like me and hate my guts and wish I was dead. Because it's more honest, and it's not like I can't handle that even though it's meaaaaan. You are on the right track, but I don't see deltas really getting on the Fe groove very often. I wish it was more often, of course - as they probably wish I was more Fi like them. I also wish for a billion dollars. Probably not going to get it. Anyways I appreciate you trying to do the moral thing or something.
Last edited by Hot Scalding Gayser; 01-22-2017 at 03:37 AM.
I think Betas can sometimes be somewhat immature... I feel like I have to suppress my annoying Beta side sometimes (I'm suppressing it right now). It often comes out when there are other crazy Betas around, but I'm not sure if I really like that. But still, overall the Delta atmosphere is too low-key.
Betas are often scapegoated, because they are the society's rebels. But sometimes they bring it on themselves with their abrasive behavior. Actually, that's not super type related, but it could be.
Following this video, I guess that making the difference between what's public, public face vs what's private, and the difference between work/serious vs play/'this is dull LET'S SHOUT IT'S FUN' would probably clarify a lot of things for Deltas.
Reason is a whore.
I liked this but you should just understand that not avoiding them make you aware of many many things outside yourself (in the way they relate to things we are thinking "not good" or "not usefull" or "immature" for example). + imo there are some "kind of relationship" where you can be really friend
Sry for being a socionic wanabee, Ive a mbti (stage 1) background :'(
Enneagram being stage -1. The only seemingly valid stuff seems to be instinct...
Delta we will say “leave me alone I don’t care” ��
Never take shit Betas say personally.
Set and assert your own boundaries because Beta least of all quadra likes to be held responsible for knowing or guessing other people's correctly. Do so forcefully, even if it requires acting or speaking selfishly or rudely. If a Beta pisses you off, fire back or let them know about it as soon as you can. It does no one any favors to hide or swallow your frustration at them. That being said, be prepared to own your feelings and fully support them when you do speak, because the Beta may not take pushback lying down. Conflict will be fruitful, but you have to be prepared for potential extended and difficult conflict; Betas are not going to easily cede being "right" to you or see your point of view, and the whole point is that they don't have to empathize or agree with you for you to be allowed to speak your mind.
To this end, Betas have a remarkably high tolerance/forgiveness, comparatively, for selfish or rude behavior/speech. Run with this. You can probably not convince Betas to see things the same way you do, but you can probably get them to speak to you in a way that you can tolerate, and that's what matters.
Appreciate Beta displays of affection (esp NF), respect, and attachment (esp ST), even if they feel weird, awkward, or alien to your Delta sensibilities. They are absolutely sincere. If you can find a way to sincerely let them know how you feel back, do so. Don't say or promise things you don't mean to them, even if you feel obligated to. That feeling is for you to deal with.
LSIs in specific are not fucking with you when they choose to be silent. It means they have nothing to say.
"The emperor of the South Sea was called Shu [Brief], the emperor of the North Sea was called Hu [Sudden], and the emperor of the central region was called Hun-tun [Chaos]. Shu and Hu from time to time came together for a meeting in the territory of Hun-tun, and Hun-tun treated them very generously. Shu and Hu discussed how they could repay his kindness. "All men," they said, "have seven openings so they can see, hear, eat, and breathe. But Hun-tun alone doesn't have any. Let's trying boring him some!" Every day they bored another hole, and on the seventh day Hun-tun died."
TLDR Don't be afraid to get messy and say something stupid or bring up your issues in a way that feels unjustifiable. The idea is that you guys can sort it out in the rubble of the conflict. Take Beta's arguments, pains and concerns seriously, but try not to wonder about what they think of you in their heart. Prioritize your own comfort with how they speak to and treat you over whether you're in the right.
accept that they have different life views than you, try to be open to their values and ways of expressing themselves. try not to press too much on your values, but suppress your instincts and wishes more than you'd do in company with Deltas
because this is generally difficult, the best way to get along is to keep a safe distance, with more shallow communication. you'll have an easier time appreciating each other that way.
for example, I try to keep more quiet than usual when EIE does not wash her hands before touching food or if her factual accuracy or reasoning leave a lot to be desired - corrections in the superego typically make people feel the most inferior. if the person of the opposing quadra cares about you then they will try to be sensitive around you, too.
this is in general. nothing principally hinders you in getting along with people of the opposing quadra. it's just normally much less likely and much less pleasant
Yes, but stress must be put on 'distance' rather than misunderstanding shallow (I mean, for whoever reads this)
"Shallow" constant communication between IEE-IEI is problematic because in their relaxed, lighter and well-intentioned communication the IEE overburdens the IEI with Ne/Fi and that can boost irritation in the IEI from 0 to 100 just like that.
Maybe just 'formal' communication is a better description in that case. Even among family members of opposing quadras it creates warmer feelings when objectives are put above interaction.
Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.
I don't have advice but I do have experience with Betas since two of my friends who are brothers are IEI and SLE and I'm EII. And everything @Kindness said would be not impossible but way too much of a chore for me to keep up that I'd probably just choose to avoid those people, but that's just me, EII Se PoLR, I'm not fighting for every word that comes out my mouth. But With my two friends we get along great for the most part, their parents are both delta, SLI/IEE and I do get along with their parents on a more "wholesome" hearty laughter level, but the two bros are not hard to get along with even though they are my opposite quadra and one is a conflictor. I do notice that gulenko bubble between duals when they get to talking though, it's almost like I'm not even there lol. I do notice they prioritize being "on top" more than I do, and they are far more strategic about being the one on top more than I do, like they just pay attention to hierarchies in social settings way more than me, I see a bunch of people, they see top dog and bottom dog, it seems philosophical and I don't go that far with them, but I do entertain this sort of view when it's just friendly competition, but sometimes the friendly competition starts becoming a commentary on someone's character, and I don't like the feeling that I'm have no value as a person simply because I'm not top dog at something, so I drop out when it gets that far. Being around them though I can easily see how EII and IEI deal with SLE Fi PoLR differently. When SLE does something I think is unfair or "wrong" I'm quick to comment about it and sometimes make it seem like some kind of "moral injustice" , like "Bro that's messed up.", and I can see that either he feels attacked or he feels questioned but can't respond much, while with his IEI brother, the approach is much softer and casual, when the SLE jokes about doing something unethical, IEI just goes "Aww come on now, don't do that." almost like as if he's just giving a suggestion and not accusing him of moral injustice like me, and SLE thinks about it for a second and the voice in the back of his head kicks in and he drops it, but he gets the Fi sort of advice without the feeling of being attacked. And idk if this is because duality or not but the SLE actually has SELF REFLECTION! Unlike my ILE roommate, with the SLE, even though it comes much later, he has the ability to self reflect and that was shocking for me to see. I see that Fi is good for SLE because it adds fairness to his perspective, life isn't always about being top dog over other people and being around him I also realized Se is good for me, life ain't always gonna be fair and sometimes you gotta be able to stand up for yourself because people will walk all over you.
Also, if you don’t like what a beta is doing, “not reacting” or asking them what they would get out of doing X, often shuts things down.
Moral judgment often escalates things. Saying over the top things is usually a competitive sport and more for entertainment value.
One of my favorite games a few back was to see how long it would take my SLI friend to visibly emotionally react to me… never malicious and more lighthearted. Now he just sees me as the friend who has crazy stories regarding things that he would never do.
Last edited by EIE H; 12-16-2022 at 04:48 PM.
this video is private
personally i can really get along with ENFjs and INFps but don't have much experience with the other side of Beta. i dunno, they seem to be annoyed by the way i'm "never really sure" of anything, but i appreciate their clarity even if i disagree with the extreme reactions they can make sometimes. i feel my deepest relationships have been with IEIs, at least so far, they can expand on my shadow Ni in a way that always surprises me and i guess i help them expand their Fi. since we are dealing with the same dimensionality of functions i feel we are on equal playing ground and so we have the most naturally harmonious relations, because we can literally be ourselves to the fullest extent. that doesn't necessarily mean we'll "get along", i think that is a delta value that i don't expect when dealing with betas, because they're weirdly and unexpectedly aggressive, so it's always important to be on the lookout for that. i dunno, it's always important to be considerate of the other party's values when dealing wth these things. if you do that then theoretically you will be "in harmony" but it's only so long as the beta accepts it. they thrive on theatrics which i personally can't do for very long
Don't talk to them.Delta advice on how to get along with Betas
LSI- avoid. Triangulate their people-avoidance schedule and try to hang out right before it so they're the ones excusing themselves, and I "tried"
SLE- Avoid. Offer positive emotions, set good boundaries, goof off, excuse myself soon-ish
EIE- avoid. Complain together when required. Excuse myself soon-ish. Same thing about triangulating bad mood times so that they're cool with my excusing myself. Empathize. Set boundaries. Blame it on my duties.
IEI- easy. Goof off. They'll excuse themselves soon because they'll be really bored soon.
Hm I usually try to avoid my conflict type at all costs and it doesn't seem they try to interact with me, so if it's a big place it's generally fine since there's other people around. I personally prefer being in bigger spaces with a lot of people, because you're not forced to interact with people you could clash with. I get along usually fine with Istps but unhealthy ones can irritate me and then they often have trouble with seeing how what they say annoys people, and continue doing it, this is not general to all of them though. There's an isfp in my class and he talks on and on usually, and I tend to space out, but he generally doesn't interact with me besides funny banter bc he is gamma. In some ways ISxPs can act similarly surface level wise but have some diff values. The only type I'd ever or do have real problems in beta is my conflict otherwise it's fine usually and even sometimes I feel weird around some Delta types lol, because they are often silent n quiet and shit, since I'm use to being around more emotive/interactive people and esfps can be more emotive than deltas too. Yeah I can have a prissy bitchy attitude sometimes but I like to lighten up and I have started to try to more..Well LSEs can also like beta humour or just generally can be more emotive I noticed with their fe role.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
