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    Isn't it a known fact that INFPs have problems with their logic and understanding?
    Not quite correct, but I could see how you could arive at that. We have absolutely no problem understanding many concepts and topics. We understand them much easier then many people. The search for understanding is a bit more of a deeper search. It's not that we don't understand, it's that we always feel we don't enough, and this causes us to constantly question. We seem to have a large appreciation of the word, "Why?". The ache for understanding is more of an overall understanding, trying to figure out why things are the way they are, why this happens like this, what is the underlying meaning, understanding what our place is, understanding our purpose, how we came to be. This is why INFP's tend to be a rather religious type, they tend to find some of these answers within religion. On the other hand, an INFP never stops questioning.

    The most common misconception is that we have problems understanding. This is not true. It's just that simply, it's an area of low self confidence, so we keep questioning our understanding.

    lol. People would have us as a bunch of bumbling idiots or something. "Duh, wait, I don't get it, can you explain it for a forth time? I just don't understand." It doesn't work out quite like this. Remember, the four types that tend to have the more exeptional learing abilities are the INFP, ENFP, INTP, and ENTP. (I believe that's right.)


    As for Myers, we all make mistakes. Hers was a large one. I'm sure she wouln't have went along with her actions if she thought she was wrong. But she obviously thought she was right. And you know, when an INFP is confident they are right... we'll you aren't changing their opinion.

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    Sorry, no offense to the INFPs out there, but wasn't Isabelle Myers an INFP?
    Yes, and her husband was an ISTJ.

    Yes, MBTI sucks, that's why we're all into Socionics. (I'm sorry I have to say this, admin, but the type descriptions on your site remind me too much of MBTI descriptions.)
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    "Yes, MBTI sucks, that's why we're all into Socionics. (I'm sorry I have to say this, admin, but the type descriptions on your site remind me too much of MBTI descriptions.)"

    He didn't write them.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    elbow tchaikovsky freezer burn

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by ayoforjager
    I guess I was just wondering why no one within the MBTI establishment has acknowledged the error yet.
    Because what they want is $$$$$$$!
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  8. #8
    Creepy-Jadae

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    I find the daily interactions and functions based on MBTI to be more accurate than Socionics. VI is highly biased as well. What exactly is better about Socionics other than the cute little puzzle pieces fitting snug in place? Id be more accepting of it if the correlations seemed to work in reality. So...

    Socionics pro: Shows functions nicely, Shows Relations, Shows Relation Patterns. Subtypes.

    Con: physical bias, doesnt seem to match reality, too much freaking Russian translation =p

    MBTI pro: Shows function breakdowns better (ie devilish or hero), seems more realistic in daily life

    Con: descriptions are too general, could use more definition and better testing, could use less capital influence

    Pros of both: Shows people patterns to aid and predict (or do bad things to if youre a dirty bastage)

    Con: personal bias, anecdotal jargon fluff crap, doesnt reflect socio/psych patterns or behaviors. Doesnt reflect learned traits very well.

    Love, An ENFJ who isnt sold on socionics and knows MBTI sorta sucks, too.

  9. #9
    Creepy-an ixtp (probably istp)

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    The J/P degree will be the first standard can be measured by biochemical ways.
    Of course, I admit it will slightly differ from what originally they suggested, and it can cause discrimination on carees so we must be careful.

    The psycologists already have get simple extrovert/introvert dichotomies on many test, which is far away from Jung's idea, and yes, they're doubted on its propriety and suspected to cause discrimination.
    I've read some Jungian books, and they said Jung hasn't thought his typology of measurable by any kind of easy tests. I can't tell who's bad, but I must say some Socionists also went far away from where Jung was.

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    Default Re: yeah

    Quote Originally Posted by ayoforjager
    I guess I was just wondering why no one within the MBTI establishment has acknowledged the error yet.
    Someone did, Jonathan Niednagel (unless he secretly uses socionics).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    I find the daily interactions and functions based on MBTI to be more accurate than Socionics. VI is highly biased as well. What exactly is better about Socionics other than the cute little puzzle pieces fitting snug in place? Id be more accepting of it if the correlations seemed to work in reality. So...
    OK, Jadae (an ENFJ?), why do you think MBTI functions are any better than socionics? They just don't seem to make any sense or fit in at all. Not only does the order make more sense in socionics, but socionics actually tries to explain the purpose of all 8 functions, instead of just putting them in order. And by the way, according to Myers definitions, someone's whose's functions are Ti-Ne should not only be a perciever, but also extraverted ( )! Don't you see how ridiculous that is?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "And by the way, according to Myers definitions, someone's whose's functions are Ti-Ne should not only be a perciever, but also extraverted ( Surprised )! Don't you see how ridiculous that is?"

    No, she only believed them to be "perceivers." The Ti-Ne type in the MBTI system is the INTP.

    "Con: physical bias, doesnt seem to match reality, too much freaking Russian translation =p "

    Not everyone believes in Visual Identification. I, for one, do not; at least, I don't believe in visual identification via static physical traits.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    No, she only believed them to be "perceivers." The Ti-Ne type in the MBTI system is the INTP.
    I know that's supposed to be INTP. My point was that it didn't make sense that if Ti-Ne types are supposivly percievers because of their Ne as the second funcitons, then shouldn't they also be extraverted? Ne is percieving and extraverted, why only pick one and not the other?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  13. #13
    Creepy-Jadae

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    Trying matching Si to SP's in the real world. Try identifying the individual functions being used when someone is using them. Ive yet to see it match up well in Socionics. My personal preference in temperament psych is the test for individual functions only but even that seems incomplete. I guess the thing with MBTI or Socionics is that theyre very much like relglions (well maybe cult stages or even sects haha). They work on paper and sell like hot cakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    Trying matching Si to SP's in the real world. Try identifying the individual functions being used when someone is using them. Ive yet to see it match up well in Socionics. My personal preference in temperament psych is the test for individual functions only but even that seems incomplete. I guess the thing with MBTI or Socionics is that theyre very much like relglions (well maybe cult stages or even sects haha). They work on paper and sell like hot cakes.
    You have absolutly no clue what you are talking about ...

    But then again if you are really an ENFj, then that would explain your rash decisions before fully researching anything out. I suppose I could forgive you for that.

  15. #15
    Creepy-Jadae

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    I belong to another group (mostly INTJ's, MBTI style) and weve been going over these a dozen times. There's nothing rash about it unless you want me to print out every single thing we've said lol. Nice try on the bait tho. I guess I can forgive you for trying to forgive me

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    Si manifests itself in ESJs more readily than ESPs, just so you know.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Edited for gayness.

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    And then there are also the ISxP types.

    To our ENFJ guest, I'm sorry you don't understand what Si is, really (maybe this is becuase of a poor Si yourself?). Anyways, here's a little description of Si:

    Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.


    Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    ...which would be INTj...but wait, this guy has all the traits of a perciever?

    Socionics then comes and says that he is an extrovert ENTp, but this does not make sense, and we are forced to conclude that we are missing a type, or missing understanding (obviously, I have to say that we are missing a type...)
    I think we should call this new type the "MysticSonic" type.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  20. #20
    Creepy-Jadae

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    And ISJ's imo. Lets take ISTJ/ISTP as an example. Tell me why ISTP should be Si/Te. Tell me why my best friend of more years than I want to count (an ISTP, yes tested and proven) should be my contrary. Tell me why an ISTJ should be my dual (laugh). And no Im not an ENFP.

    What exactly warrants an Se in an ISTJ. How does Se fit in with tradiationlists since Se is a present funtion and Si is a past function? I really find this to be an N-theory issue. The theories are cool and all but they must match up to the S world to be honest.

  21. #21
    Creepy-Johan

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    Transigent:

    Indeed. Mystic Sonic is hardly alone here. I for example, must have and as saying that I have a lot of makes about as much sense as a retarded chimp holding an oral lecture on quantum physics. (strongly NT if anyone wonders)

    ENTp? Hell no. The description of extroversion means a focus on the outer world, which is ridiculous. I am almost entirely focused inwards. Thus, I end up as an INTj, yet if given the descriptions of j and p, I would choose the p ones 9 times out of 10.

  22. #22
    Creepy-Jadae

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    And then there are also the ISxP types.

    To our ENFJ guest, I'm sorry you don't understand what Si is, really (maybe this is becuase of a poor Si yourself?). Anyways, here's a little description of Si:
    I already know all of the functions by heart. Thank you tho. Ive *read/responded/compared/contrasted* MBTI/Socionics for more time than Id like to admit =\ I may sound negative throughout so I'll give a positive back. I do feel that they have enlightening qualities in reality (I just dont think that the sums of either theories are 100% honest).

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    Default yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoforjager
    My personal belief is that you should NEVER let intertype relations influence your choices when it comes to friends, as everything happens for a reason, and to analyze it would only screw things up. Intertype relations are great for analyzing other people, bu when it comes to yourself you should never avoid being friends with someone because they are your benefactor or quasi identical or whatever, because A. you may be wrong, and B. Intertype relations are probably different for those who are a fuzzy type or have somehow grown beyond the more primitive behaviors of their types by growing as people.
    The sad thing about this is that these relations often go bad later in life. I've heard stories about about quasi-identical relations that started out perfect and peachy but years later completely collapsed. So far, I've been in two relations of supervision (as supervisor and supervisee) that seemed ok at the time but now have both fizzled out. The unconscious is an evil, evil thing. Remember, Socionics always wins in the end.

    But the end is never a problem for passion, now is it?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    "And ISJ's imo. Lets take ISTJ/ISTP as an example. Tell me why ISTP should be Si/Te. Tell me why my best friend of more years than I want to count (an ISTP, yes tested and proven) should be my contrary. Tell me why an ISTJ should be my dual (laugh). And no Im not an ENFP.

    What exactly warrants an Se in an ISTJ. How does Se fit in with tradiationlists since Se is a present funtion and Si is a past function? I really find this to be an N-theory issue. The theories are cool and all but they must match up to the S world to be honest."

    ISTj and ISTp are just the symbols chosen to represent the many things that make up a particulary type's information metabolism.

    If you were to call an Si-Te type an ISTj and would call a Ti-Se type an ISTj, we both would be correct; we would merely have to recognize that what we're talking about is not the same type.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    Lets take ISTJ/ISTP as an example.
    Ok, I'm an ISTP.

    Tell me why ISTP should be Si/Te.
    Well, for one thing Si is an Introverted-Percieving function, and ISTPs are Introverted-Perciving types! Ti is Judging, and we're not Judging! Duh. ISTPs like to do what we feel, we don't really plan ahead but go with the flow of the moment at that particular time. There's a reason all SP types get these things associated with them, because they are all dominated by SENSING! ISxP types are all tuned into the si traits such as the ones listed above. And like I said, we are by no means Judging.

    Tell me why my best friend of more years than I want to count (an ISTP, yes tested and proven) should be my contrary.


    Proven? You've gotta be kidding me. Because someone takes a little self-percievered test doesn't mean that it is right %100 of the time (more along the lines of %50, actually). It's very possible this person is ISTJ but just thinks of herself/himself as more "P". These things happen. If you think that this ISTP has a dominant Ti, then they are actually ISTJ.

    Tell me why an ISTJ should be my dual (laugh).
    I think it's very possible you are mixing up ISTPs and ISTJs here. Maybe ISTPs come off as more "J" to you because you are annoying to them and they try to push away from you... and can become aggitated. This has nothing to do with J, this has to do with the ISTPs wanting more freedom and reject you pushing into their world.

    And no Im not an ENFP.
    Ok, we got that.

    Questions?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    This issue is wholely semantical and hence the dillema Jadae proposes is a false one.

    EDIT-At least, the first part is.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    What about the dilema Transigent poses? It sounds kinda like you.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    One's information metabolism is just the way in which we process the information; one's personality is how one uses such information, with the way in which one uses it being defined by one's experiences, hence extraodinarily divergent traits of character between individuals of the same type.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Default Re: yes

    Edited for gayness.

  31. #31
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    [quote="Rocky"]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae


    ISTPs like to do what we feel, we don't really plan ahead but go with the flow of the moment at that particular time.

    Which is Se. What exactly is Ti judging? And I havent annoyed any of them btw. Not all ENFJs (or any temperament) are preconceived notions that follow through 100% lol. Not all E's are insanely-attention-seeking-high-E's. Intuitive subtype btw. I am close to both ISTJ and ISTP irl. The ISTJ was tested through a professional and Ive sent the ISTP countless tests (and Id always have to barter with him to do them lol).

  32. #32
    Creepy-Jadae

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    This issue is wholely semantical and hence the dillema Jadae proposes is a false one.

    EDIT-At least, the first part is.

    Show proof of theory to reality. Show me Jesus lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Some reasons why I find it impossible to type myself are: First and foremost, I am a "social actor". I try to blend in, commune with the crowd, and select the right moments to do the right things. I often "force", I mean literally force myself to actually "be" an emotional state or have a certain opinion or behave a certain way just to see what people do. I am incredibly non judgemental, and will go along with ANYTHING that will not damage my permanent record (and have even done quite a few things that would have, and got lucky!) I can understand almost anybody's point of view, and make myself accept it, and start to believe that I have it myself. I have always spent WAY too much time analyzing and contemplating why people do things, and just what I need to believe to do the same things, and then believing those things, and behaving the same way that the people that I thought were interesting at the time behave. All of this leads to the fact that I really don't feel any "bad" relations, because if something "bad" happens, I analyze why the person thinks that way, and then I adopt that belief whole-heartedly, and then feel a companionship with that person.
    You know, Transigent, there is a type that does all of this...
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.

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    "Show proof of theory to reality. Show me Jesus lol."

    The first part of you issue is semantical one.

    For instance, if you call a a peach a potatoe, and I call an orange a Potatoe, it's readily obvious that they aren't the same thing! All we simply need to do acknowledge that we aren't referring to the same thing when we use the same symbols to represent that which we are referring to.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "Show proof of theory to reality. Show me Jesus lol."

    The first part of you issue is semantical one.

    For instance, if you call a a peach a potatoe, and I call an orange a Potatoe, it's readily obvious that they aren't the same thing! All we simply need to do acknowledge that we aren't referring to the same thing when we use the same symbols to represent that which we are referring to.
    Ah! Poor MysticSonic....so young....

    Soon you will learn that the fun part is not FINDING the truth, but CONVINCING people of it....

    If socionics (or life!) can teach us anything, it is that each person has a different path of understanding, and you can say the same thing many different ways, but each person will only understand a handful of the possible ways....
    You know, I just spent 15 minutes trying to type up an answer to Jadae's questions, but the whole thing got erased so fuck it. I'm not going to try to convince her any more because I realized it doesn't matter; I don't really care what she wants to go on believing nor does it affect me. I do think she has a distorted view of the "truth" about sensing and what it is, but I don't care any more. I'm not here to recruit anyone to socionics or their definitions of functions. Sometimes people just have to believe what THEY want to believe, and let that be the end of it.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Edited for gayness.

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    If socionics (or life!) can teach us anything, it is that each person has a different path of understanding, and you can say the same thing many different ways, but each person will only understand a handful of the possible ways....
    Your SO INFP.

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    Yeah, because only INFps have enough wisdom to say that.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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