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Thread: LSE-ESTj Subtype Discussion and Examples

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    Default LSE-ESTj Subtype Discussion and Examples

    Pic.s are welcomed. :wink: (I wonder do they look different from the ones with Te subtype? )

    I realized that I don't know any ESTj IRL. I encountered all types of EXTxs except ESTjs, i.e. none of my friends or acquiantances are workaholics. I have this feeling that ESTjs can only be found at the peak of any organization, be it classes, clubs, companies etc. So I don't think I have the opportunity to meet them so far.

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    Not sure about the subtype but here are four ESTjs IMO:










    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Lance Armstrong:



    You wish they were at the peak of every organization. None of the ones I know is interested in that kind of stuff. Usually, you find ISTjs and ENFjs there.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You wish they were at the peak of every organization. None of the ones I know is interested in that kind of stuff. Usually, you find ISTjs and ENFjs there.
    I agree.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Correction -- I have met several ESTj managers and directors. But probably ISTj and ENFj are indeed the most common type at the top of hierarchical corporations.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Hoover and Bush senior, yes. (Hoover uncertain, Bush Te-subtype)
    The terminator, might be possible. If so, sensory subtype.
    Bush junior. Not. Alpha. Still powerful creative . The guy's whole presidency is a carnivale and a photo-op. One can't get more alpha-having fun than this as a a president.

    To Eunice: the very top of any hierarchy isn't the best place for an ESTj. Far better suited for a post in which vision and/or good pr are not requirements but skill is. Look for surgeon, cabinet minister, general rather than CEO, godfather, president. I'd say that an ESTj is the most narrow-minded, least able to manage pr of all the extrovert types. Focus. That's the word. (Though strictly taken focus does not outrule a career like Arnold's. One could focus in one thing first and then consider that one has reached everything one can in that area and then move on to the next, allowing for hopping from bodybuilding to acting to directing to politics.)

    Other probables that spring to mind (all of which I find probable sensory subtypes):
    Real:

    Richelieu


    Mister T


    Helmut Kohl


    Martin Scorsese


    John McEnroe


    John McCain

    Fictional:

    Pete Becker in Friends


    Lennie Smalls in Of mice and men


    Buffalo Bill in Silence of the lambs


    Gregory House in House M.D.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    I see Kohl as ESTp rather than ESTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I see Kohl as ESTp rather than ESTj.
    Quite possible.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Bush junior. Not. Alpha. Still powerful creative . The guy's whole presidency is a carnivale and a photo-op. One can't get more alpha-having fun than this as a a president.
    So how do you account for his bluntness and social awkwardness? Inarticulate, graceless...sounds like the anti-ESE manifesto to me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Bush junior. Not. Alpha. Still powerful creative . The guy's whole presidency is a carnivale and a photo-op. One can't get more alpha-having fun than this as a a president.
    So how do you account for his bluntness and social awkwardness? Inarticulate, graceless...sounds like the anti-ESE manifesto to me.
    He's not socially awkward. He got elected for president because of his social nice-guy persona. Time and again he charmed journalists and was contrasted with the gruff McCain who's far more likely to be ESTj. And Bush's still more than so don't think I count him as a pure socialite. That he's not. But no way is he delta.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    John McEnroe doesn't seem estj either. With his public tantrums and what not, this would seem to go against the estj grain.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze8
    John McEnroe doesn't seem estj either. With his public tantrums and what not, this would seem to go against the estj grain.
    Public displays of anger are quite appropriate for ESTjs. The term "onslaught" has been connected to this type for a reason. Often enough I've seen mentioned "bulging eyes", "demonic rage" or "throbbing veins in the forehead" in connection with ESTjs on this site. I don't find any of it inappropriate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Public displays of anger are quite appropriate for ESTjs. The term "onslaught" has been connected to this type for a reason. Often enough I've seen mentioned "bulging eyes", "demonic rage" or "throbbing veins in the forehead" in connection with ESTjs on this site. I don't find any of it inappropriate.
    Yikes. I suppose the INFjs are supposed to calm them down?

    Do you think that Si subtypes are softer or calmer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by April

    Do you think that Si subtypes are softer or calmer?
    I'd like to think so...lol

    When I was playing sports I would get what I would call the demonic rage that Smilex mentioned and a slight public display of anger would ensue. but I wouldn't put it near the same level as a McEnroe fit. Ok, maybe once... but not more than that...lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You wish they were at the peak of every organization. None of the ones I know is interested in that kind of stuff. Usually, you find ISTjs and ENFjs there.
    Their total household income must be the highest among all duals. On a side note, I find some ENFj leaders very scary especially when they were giving speeches that were full of zest and passion but actually meant nothing. Freaks me out to see how they can emotionally manipulate so many people who followed them blindly.

    As for George W. Bush, I think he’s an SLE rather than LSE.


    Quote Originally Posted by April

    Yikes. I suppose the INFjs are supposed to calm them down?

    Do you think that Si subtypes are softer or calmer?
    I thought so too. The Te subtype descriptions made me feel that they are more stern and serious than Si subtypes. As for ESTj showing public display of anger, it sounds kind of scary. I think I will crawl under the chair if an ESTj ever showed this public display of anger infront of me and everyone else. As long as he doesn't show domestic violence, I think I still can take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by April
    Yikes. I suppose the INFjs are supposed to calm them down?

    Do you think that Si subtypes are softer or calmer?
    Hmm... I feel that's a bit of a trick question. The type (see Gregory House) is far more inclined to misbehave in general. On the other hand the type (see Bush Sr) is according to the opinion of some (e.g. Meged) more likely to blow up in an impressive way. I'm still straddling the fence on this issue wondering if it might be possible that the blowing up is itself an expression of even from the logical subtype. *shrug*

    Some evidence may be had from the fact that accepting is generally a calming influence whereas creative seems to be very good at causing an energetic outburst. Why that's supposed to be a good thing and an expression of duality is slightly mysterious to me at the moment. Of course the question of what an INFj is supposed to do with or to an ESTj at all is something I find slightly lacking in the way of answers.
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    House?


    Here's an ESTj who's probably a Si subtype:

    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    creative seems to be very good at causing an energetic outburst.

    As in providing the ESTj an outlet to vent his frustrations, thus offering them a cathartic experience? Or causing them to be angry with INFj Ne subtypes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You wish they were at the peak of every organization. None of the ones I know is interested in that kind of stuff. Usually, you find ISTjs and ENFjs there.
    Their total household income must be the highest among all duals.
    What's this newfound obsession with income...

    On a side note, I find some ENFj leaders very scary especially when they were giving speeches that were full of zest and passion but actually meant nothing. Freaks me out to see how they can emotionally manipulate so many people who followed them blindly.

    As for George W. Bush, I think he’s an SLE rather than LSE.
    Yeah, ENFjs sometimes are like that. If you look for the data of what they talk about, it's all messed up. I've unmasked twice ENFjs IRL that behaved like that, even though the people are still influenced. I could accept bush as SLE, but maybe ESE can be more likely, no clue actually. ESTps seem to be a bit fishier in the way they lie. His lies don't seem to be good enough though, it seems.


    I think I will crawl under the chair if an ESTj ever showed this public display of anger infront of me and everyone else. As long as he doesn't show domestic violence, I think I still can take it.
    ESTjs, as opposed to ESTps which only tend to get angrier, seem to actually calm down when their anger is not taken seriously, IME.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Some evidence may be had from the fact that accepting is generally a calming influence whereas creative seems to be very good at causing an energetic outburst. Why that's supposed to be a good thing and an expression of duality is slightly mysterious to me at the moment. Of course the question of what an INFj is supposed to do with or to an ESTj at all is something I find slightly lacking in the way of answers.
    I don't know what should or should not happen, either, but if you yelled at or otherwise expressed anger toward me, depending on the subject, I'd likely either get angry back at you (though it wouldn't be a very demonstrative anger), ignore you, or go away and quietly cry. If it wasn't really directed at me, I might try asking questions to get you to calm down. I, of course, don't know yet if that would actually work, but it would be an initial reaction.

    EDIT: I was thinking more of a one-on-one interaction when I wrote the above. With regard to a public display, I think Eunice's idea of hiding under a piece of furniture has a lot of merit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    As for George W. Bush, I think he’s an SLE rather than LSE.
    I can't see Bush as SLE.

    There are some interesting videos here:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/life/

    You can see Bush giving a short tour of the Oval Office. You can also see Cheney giving a tour of his office. If either of them is a SLE, it's Cheney, not Bush.

    EDIT: and I'm not sure that Cheney is an SLE either.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Bump. I am quite curious to see what people think about ESTjs here, in terms of their anger. Do people still stand by their statements? Or have your views changed?

    I find these comments interesting:





    Quote Originally Posted by April View Post
    Yikes. I suppose the INFjs are supposed to calm them down?

    Do you think that Si subtypes are softer or calmer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Public displays of anger are quite appropriate for ESTjs. The term "onslaught" has been connected to this type for a reason. Often enough I've seen mentioned "bulging eyes", "demonic rage" or "throbbing veins in the forehead" in connection with ESTjs on this site. I don't find any of it inappropriate.
    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    [responding to april]

    I thought so too. The Te subtype descriptions made me feel that they are more stern and serious than Si subtypes. As for ESTj showing public display of anger, it sounds kind of scary. I think I will crawl under the chair if an ESTj ever showed this public display of anger infront of me and everyone else. As long as he doesn't show domestic violence, I think I still can take it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I don't know what should or should not happen, either, but if you yelled at or otherwise expressed anger toward me, depending on the subject, I'd likely either get angry back at you (though it wouldn't be a very demonstrative anger), ignore you, or go away and quietly cry. If it wasn't really directed at me, I might try asking questions to get you to calm down. I, of course, don't know yet if that would actually work, but it would be an initial reaction.

    EDIT: I was thinking more of a one-on-one interaction when I wrote the above. With regard to a public display, I think Eunice's idea of hiding under a piece of furniture has a lot of merit.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Si-ESTj

    I wish I can meet more Si-ESTjs. Nearly every ESTj I have met is a Te subtype, who should be kept away from the workplace sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    I wish I can meet more Si-ESTjs. Nearly every ESTj I have met is a Te subtype, who should be kept away from the workplace sometimes.
    I know a few. I like them, but they can sometimes be a little crude with their humor or odd with excessive Si like too much drinking or eating, or awful sexual jokes for my taste. These guys might just be like that though, and it may not have anything to do with them being Si.

    I know that the Te subtype can be strict and demanding, but I have not met any really bad ones yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    I wish I can meet more Si-ESTjs. Nearly every ESTj I have met is a Te subtype, who should be kept away from the workplace sometimes.
    Good luck with that. I know a couple Si subs and they are gems both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    I know a few. I like them, but they can sometimes be a little crude with their humor or odd with excessive Si like too much drinking or eating, or awful sexual jokes for my taste. These guys might just be like that though, and it may not have anything to do with them being Si.

    I know that the Te subtype can be strict and demanding, but I have not met any really bad ones yet.

    Oh jeez, I wonder which category I fall into : /, according to your standards.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    I know a few. I like them, but they can sometimes be a little crude with their humor or odd with excessive Si like too much drinking or eating, or awful sexual jokes for my taste. These guys might just be like that though, and it may not have anything to do with them being Si.

    I know that the Te subtype can be strict and demanding, but I have not met any really bad ones yet.
    Heh my buddy is like this. He rocks my socks though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Heh my buddy is like this. He rocks my socks though.
    I'm assuming you're talking about the and not subtype
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Yeah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    I know a few. I like them, but they can sometimes be a little crude with their humor or odd with excessive Si like too much drinking or eating, or awful sexual jokes for my taste. These guys might just be like that though, and it may not have anything to do with them being Si.

    I know that the Te subtype can be strict and demanding, but I have not met any really bad ones yet.
    Interesting. I knew one with the bad qualities of both of the subtypes you mentioned...so not sure if he was Si or Te. But as far as the "strict and demanding" part, there's this funny thing where we both know (as an ENFP) it's not going to work on me. Sometimes I'd play along, sometimes not. But it was sort of amusing more than anything. But then again, I've never had an ESTJ boss...so not sure how that would work.

    I do know another ESTJ who never makes sexual jokes, etc and has a lot of tact. Prob individual differences...

    ESTJs are usually lots of fun though.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Just about anyone who knows me when I'm "not at work" knows I make tons of sexual jokes. There are a number of people here that can attest to that. But at work? Not at all. It depends on the setting and what we're trying to do, and how comfortable or not I am with you.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    -- or how tired I am
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anamericancer View Post
    Work is the last place I want to hear sexual jokes, lol
    ESTjs do that a lot, huh?
    Not so much in my experience, though one of them finds joy in flatulence. It runs in the family as this ESTj is from the stock of a particularly legendary gasmaster. Using clever tactics and rules of thumb to diffuse the chance of detection, unsuspecting coworkers or passerby have often been ambushed whilst the composed perpetrator slips away unnoticed. When regaling family with the tales of such grand exploits, the ESTj approaches the closest real life approximation I've seen of ROFLMAO. I don't think this is type-related, but I thought I'd share.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    they can sometimes be a little crude with their humor or odd with excessive Si like too much drinking or eating, or awful sexual jokes for my taste.
    Wow. I am the complete opposite. Sometimes I wish that I have the capacity to drink more. I think sexual jokes can be tolerated as long as they are not derogatory towards women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    Wow. I am the complete opposite. Sometimes I wish that I have the capacity to drink more. I think sexual jokes can be tolerated as long as they are not derogatory towards women.


    With one guy the jokes are always derogatory. I don't mind them THAT much, especially because it lets me bring out my Fi, but it gets boring when it is ALL THE TIME and no one can say anything without it turning into a sexual or racist joke. He is so predictable it is ridiculous.

    He also has to touch everyone's ass, which actually can be funny when a girl gets pissed. He is really good looking though so usually girls don't mind. He will also hook up with anyone. I mean he's been with hundreds of girls NO JOKE.

    Anyway, I have known him for so long that I really do love him in spite of the fact that he frustrates me sometimes. Having said all that I guess he is pretty cool and I do feel some comfort from a dual interaction when I am around him.

    Edit:

    Another Si subtype is the father of a good friend I have known for most of my life. He is a total alcoholic, so much so that he doesn't work at all. His wife cooks, cleans, and works and raised the kids while he helped with very little. (This is probably just him and I know there are unhealthy people of all types.) He spent most of his time in Si indulgent states, getting massages, playing golf, going out to dinner, having parties, watching sports, taking pills and drinking.

    I know another Si subtype who is really cool, smart, nice, and funny. I don't like that he says he loves his girlfriend and then cheats on her all the time (with lame girls). He just likes hooking up with different girls so he does it.

    From what I can remember these are the only Si subtypes I have known well.
    Last edited by Christy B; 04-15-2008 at 12:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    I know a few. I like them, but they can sometimes be a little crude with their humor or odd with excessive Si like too much drinking or eating, or awful sexual jokes for my taste. These guys might just be like that though, and it may not have anything to do with them being Si.

    I know that the Te subtype can be strict and demanding, but I have not met any really bad ones yet.
    I have not experienced the Te to be strict or demanding, I just know that others have had experiences with this. (I've heard.) Then again, maybe what someone else would consider strict and demanding I would not. I think my old boss was ESTJ-Te a female she was a wonderful boss. The best manager of time, people, problems I have ever worked with. She worked harder than anyone one else around which made me want to work harder too.
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    Lacking context, I have to say Christy that those Si subs sound inordinately flawed. No offense to you or your friends/acquaintances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Lacking context, I have to say Christy that those Si subs sound inordinately flawed. No offense to you or your friends/acquaintances.
    Yeah. I thought it might not be type related. I just know a lot of really screwed up people I guess. The guy who cheats is pretty normal, nice, etc., minus the cheating thing. To be fair, I guess it doesn't help that the two younger of those Si guys are really attractive and that girls are always falling all over them. Really. It is way too easy. . . . Gross.


    What are other more "normal" Si subtypes like? Maybe if I met one I would change my opinion of this type!!!
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    Now, not all of this will be type-related either. Rather they are generalized observations of things I've found the three individuals have in common. Naturally, some non-pertinent or typologically generic info will cycle in not to mention the possibility of an incorrect typing here or there (I'm almost positive that they are all delta ST, though it may be that my uncle is ISTp). Anyway, take it all with a grain of salt:

    The ones I've known tend to be pretty relaxing (noting that I only know them outside of a work environment, except for my uncle, who I've worked with on his farm). However, when things pop up that need doing they address it immediately and decisively, seemingly without it being a big disruption in terms of mindset. They all hold themselves and others to pretty high standards.

    I've noticed that all of them has a sort of narrowly peculiar type of humor (either in content or form) as if it's more of a learned activity rather than a natural feature of their conversation. My uncle and my mother (whom I only have knowledge of by her accounts) are strict taskmasters, but so long as you work hard and attempt to carry out what's asked, they're quite genial. Otherwise, you decline in their eyes.

    Character accounts for a lot in all of their views. If any of them see in you cause to doubt your trustworthiness or good will, reactions can range from confrontation to restricting all further contact to the necessities of the situation (strictly business, ignoring you, etc). On the other hand, if your good character is demonstrated in some way (it takes more convincing from some than others), they tend to open up and become very warm individuals.

    Once you've earned their trust, it takes something significant to lose that, such as a moral breach (a betrayal, perceived or real). In contrast, they don't seem to deal with uncertainty particularly well regarding their personal contacts. Dissembling is detested (keep it real, folks) and direct and sincere communication is the bee's knees.

    Hmm, that's all I can think of at the moment, and the more I think about it the less this sounds like a description of a particular type, much less a subtype of a particular type. Still, I have people in my life like this and I tend to get on very well with them. So there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    I've noticed that all of them has a sort of narrowly peculiar type of humor (either in content or form) as if it's more of a learned activity rather than a natural feature of their conversation. My uncle and my mother (whom I only have knowledge of by her accounts) are strict taskmasters, but so long as you work hard and attempt to carry out what's asked, they're quite genial. Otherwise, you decline in their eyes.

    Character accounts for a lot in all of their views. If any of them see in you cause to doubt your trustworthiness or good will, reactions can range from confrontation to restricting all further contact to the necessities of the situation (strictly business, ignoring you, etc). On the other hand, if your good character is demonstrated in some way (it takes more convincing from some than others), they tend to open up and become very warm individuals.

    Once you've earned their trust, it takes something significant to lose that, such as a moral breach (a betrayal, perceived or real). In contrast, they don't seem to deal with uncertainty particularly well regarding their personal contacts. Dissembling is detested (keep it real, folks) and direct and sincere communication is the bee's knees.

    Hmm, that's all I can think of at the moment, and the more I think about it the less this sounds like a description of a particular type, much less a subtype of a particular type. Still, I have people in my life like this and I tend to get on very well with them. So there!
    Bee's knees? I've never heard that one before. What does it really mean?


    And yeah, everything you say there is basically how I feel. Particularly your take on trust, and how I warm up to people that seem trustworthy, and stay away from those that are not.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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