LII-ESE Duality Relations: discussion, examples (INTj and ESFj)

[Krig the Viking]

Think of all the people you meet in the first thirty years of your life. To write them all off as immature and deny their potential to mirror your life attitude is extremely limiting. I thought you guys were Ne egos!

Er... I said most won't be ready for a serious relationship. Not all. Obviously there's always a possibility that two very mature people will meet and begin a successful relationship in their early twenties; I know people who have. It's just that, statistically speaking, most won't, and therefore you shouldn't expect it.

[silverchris9]

just curious--how has the dating field become more Se in recent times?

I would say over the long term it's become significantly less "Se," in that force/aggression in mating has been seen as less and less important. On the other hand, maybe if you compared it to mid-19th Century Europe...

[Krig the Viking]

I would say over the long term it's become significantly less "Se," in that force/aggression in mating has been seen as less and less important. On the other hand, maybe if you compared it to mid-19th Century Europe...

It's also less Logical as well, since logical arranged marriages are no longer popular.

I would say that if it is possible to type the current "dating field" it would be SEE. The Fi is obvious -- there is very little focus on what is logically correct or practically beneficial, just on the question: "Do I like this person or not?" It's Fi-Creative, because relationships are mostly viewed as temporary and easily discarded if either party decides they don't like the other. I would say it's Se>Ne, because the emphasis is mostly on trying to look/appear impressive, whether it be women trying to look "hot", or men trying to look "cool".

I think it's changing for the younger generation, though. There's a stronger focus on group activity, with relationships branching off from that if partners discover they like each other, then returning to "friendship" status if things don't work out. So possibly the "dating world" is changing from SEE to IEE or something?

Just poking fun at you guys. I look forward to the OP's reflection and thoughts regarding LII-ESE duality that may come as a result.

No problem. And indeed.

[Zed]

So much to reply to...

What makes you say that? You should try presenting your and more.

It's definitely not true (IME) once they've been hurt once in a relationship; then they start looking more actively for someone compatible instead of trying hard to please an incompatible person. I also believe that a lot of the duality issues with ESEs is due more to them being open with everyone, and therefore unavailable; not that they don't like their duals (as much as they may pretend they don't).

I'm not saying they don't like us, they just don't seem to like dating us. It's as if society has decided that we'd be bad boyfriends, and ESE does not want to risk questioning that authority, even if there's some interest.

For you, dear LII, to have something really fan fucking tastic with an ESE girl she has to be fat and ugly enough. Of course, that doesn't mean she has to be objectively fat and ugly, just fat and ugly in your opinion. But no, you want a princess. Well, you don't know what you're missing.

You know, I actually got hit on by a "fat and ugly" (I wouldn't be that nasty but they're your words not mine) ESE girl the other day. I think she had lost puppy syndrome, because just a bit of kindness from me and she decided she wanted a whole lot more. I guess I should feel really hypocritical about this, but I can't help if I'm not attracted.

I think it's the other way around. Since the problem seems to be that ESEs are open to too many people, you need to find one who thinks she's fat and ugly but isn't, in which case she won't expect anyone terrific and will be happy to have you.

You are right. Where do I find such ESEs?

no zed is right, I can remember a ESE hinting that I was a bad boyfriend, much the same, I can remember a ESE hinting that I was strange.

Though at the same time your right, ESE will pretend to be less interested than they really are. I'm not sure if ESE have low self-esteem thus they imagine they deserve better than being happy with socially ackward LIIs. In some respects its almost like LII is what ESE needs but not what they want, not at first. At the same time don't most LII want to be socially involved, than outcasted? something a ESE would want too? Its harder but not impossible.

Ironically whenever I do act like myself around girls, and , its because they are someone elses girlfriend or wife and then duality takes effect and heated drama. There is no pressure, you don't a give a f*$k! I don't have to worry about who's paying, why is she talking to that guy, etc. I'm not jealous at all. Basically I have no worries and then I start acting like myself and ESE flock, but I can't really do much about it.

I was thinking about this the other day, like in terms of developing a friendship, you realise that with some people your better off remaining pals or buddies, but if you try to stretch it further, you make bad friends, or you get upset because their not as good as your best friend. Consider the difference between your drinking buddies, work buddies and your true friends. There is somethings that can be said and done with one group of friends and somethings that just can't be said or done with another.

I'll be able to give a good idea on the different stages of progression when I gain more experience with women in a intimate relationship and I can conceptualize it like I can friendship. Before I had even tried with women, I had the hopless romantic idea of spendng the rest of my life with the first women I fell in love with - didn't happen that way for me and most people.

Overall though you have the right idea to want to collaborate. My advice is be curious about women and relationships, and keep an open ear as to what works and doesn't work for others. Also drop the idea of seeing yourself as LII, not that that is false, but consider your appearance, behaviour, physical presence, etc. Your individual experince is what is objectively occuring, if you have replaced your individuality for "LII", well that is not who you are because I'm a LII and I'm not you!

also, last bit of wisdom, unless you live in a vacumm, its not just LII and ESE, though there may not be many LIIs, there is still other types, ESE and ESE seem to make a fairly decent couple.

Hmmm... a lot to think about.

Didn't your mother ever teach you that duality isn't everything?

I think I will have to admit to myself that I am disappointed with life in general, I expected too much from it and I have had to abandon the idealism I had when I was younger. It would have come sooner, but I blame reading Ayn Rand for it lasting way longer than it should have. Duality may be the last refuge for me.

Please don't read this as more negative than it should be, I do think there is still a whole lot that makes life worth living, there is a lot of good, just very little that is perfect.

That said... my mind hasn't changed, this is a worthy cause. Relationships with other people will always be among our highest values, and duality allows us a closeness that is difficult otherwise.

Duality is a tool to solve a problem, not the solution to all of them.

Solve the biggest problems with the greatest payoff first, worry about the little ones later?

Good answer.

It is at the same time something insanely hot and attractive and a flaw to be corrected. The precise mix of those things are what creates the incentive for interaction in which both sides draw on their strengths.

Couldn't have said it better.

Why not focus on what you can get instead? Si-creative women are large and quite impressive.

"large and quite impressive"

I think my Ne would torture me with "what-ifs" every time I came across an ESE then.

Very simply, put people first before socionics, duality, etc. Meet as many people as possible with the task of simply getting to know them, their behaviour, and how they treat people. Socionics can't tell you if someone is a horrible person, and there are villains of every type. Put your instincts and observations of real people first, then decide if they have the Fe and Si you are looking for. Socionics is more of a suggestion than an accurate law.

And don't expect to have a stable, lasting relationship until late twenties, early thirties. Generally speaking the maturity required of relationships is unusually found before the third decade of life.

I bit of preaching to the choir, but I know that I seem to lack it from my posts. I do appreciate the wisdom in any case, I did learn something. Thank you.

Right. Back to business. I think the first step here is identification of exactly what the problems are. Thanks to jxrtes on that account, and to Krig for his turtle-hummingbird analogy . Any more ideas?

[yellow82]

All I am going to say here is that I have a "serious" attraction to LII/INTJ's.

And btw, I'm not fat; or ugly and I am very sane.

I like your personality.

You intrique me with your intelligence.

(Though I prefer INTJ's with similar interests and a background similar to my own - which is hard to find).

The only thing I have a hard time with is how few of compliments you all give out. If you want an ESE/ESFJ girl to like you; you're going to have to compliment her somewhat. Find something you like about her and let her know!

Oh and btw - we like gentlemen! :wink:

[Krig the Viking]

All I am going to say here is that I have a "serious" attraction to LII/INTJ's.

And btw, I'm not fat; or ugly and I am very sane.

I like your personality.

You intrique me with your intelligence.

(Though I prefer INTJ's with similar interests and a background similar to my own - which is hard to find).

The only thing I have a hard time with is how few of compliments you all give out. If you want an ESE/ESFJ girl to like you; you're going to have to compliment her somewhat. Find something you like about her and let her know!

Oh and btw - we like gentlemen! :wink:

I think part of the reason LIIs don't give compliments very often is that we're never sure how they'll be received, and we tend to feel awkward doing it. To compliment someone involves opening up and showing how we feel, which makes us feel vulnerable, so we tend not to do it. In order to get us to show how we feel, we need a safe emotional atmosphere and some friendly encouragement. How much encouragement will depend on the individual LII.

[Zed]

Krig, you've been at this for longer than I have and you're a great deal sharper than I am. Makes me wonder what my chances are. In any case, perhaps I have fool's luck on my side.

What we want here is to narrow psychological distance long enough, if it has to be artificially, for both duals to experience what duality is like, and in this way learning to value it, and the assumption is that they would then both work at maintaining it without the need for outside interference. Right? After dualization kicks in, it could end up being taken for granted because it is so comfortable. I would know, I was relegated to the friend zone.

In future I resolve to get the ESE addicted, and then take all my precious TiNe away from her unless she gives me what I want. My Fi is telling me I sound like a bastard. I really am not.

I digress. I will post some of my thoughts on what can be done to decrease psychological distance more rapidly a little later. If all we are going to get is a precious ten minutes from an ESE due to her very busy life, we might as well learn to make the most of it.

It just occurred to me that if I'm going to be retyped by you folk then it will most likely happen because of something I say here, since this is where you'll see me in my regular thinking mode. That would be just hilarious, considering the point of this thread.

[Krig the Viking]

It seems to me, from my experience at least, that crossing the "psychological distance barrier" is heavily dependent on situational factors, which are largely beyond our control. Someone who works with or lives with or otherwise has frequent meaningful contact with an ESE with naturally cross into close psychological distance almost without effort, whereas someone who sees an ESE for ten minutes every few weeks or more, will find it almost impossible unless something changes.

Of course, an EP type would be like "Well then, make it change!" To which the LII responds, "Uh, yeah, that doesn't seem possible, for the following reasons..."

Also, yellow is right, she will likely be able to give advice from an ESE perspective much better than I.

[Exodus]

It seems to me, from my experience at least, that crossing the "psychological distance barrier" is heavily dependent on situational factors, which are largely beyond our control. Someone who works with or lives with or otherwise has frequent meaningful contact with an ESE with naturally cross into close psychological distance almost without effort, whereas someone who sees an ESE for ten minutes every few weeks or more, will find it almost impossible unless something changes.

"Hey, you wanna get lunch sometime?"

[yellow82]

In future I resolve to get the ESE addicted, and then take all my precious TiNe away from her unless she gives me what I want. My Fi is telling me I sound like a bastard. I really am not.

Btw, what's to say that your ESE "friend" isn't addicted to you already? If you two are close; she's bound to have feelings for you. . .

And I don't care what "friend-zone" she's put you in - if she doesn't have a boyfriend she probably likes you. Maybe she doesn't think it's the right time to have a relationship - or - maybe she doesn't think you're interested in her in that way - or maybe she's too scared to tell you how she feels so she puts you to the side and acts like a friend.

I have even gone so low as to talk to the guy I like about him in the third person - making it seem like another guy. . . . adding a few details that aren't him just so he wouldn't know that it was actually him that I was talking about. . . .

If she's talked to you about "another guy" and failed to give you details on him - asked how you think a relationship should go - and then did whatever it was that you said to do - there's a possibility of it being a hoax.

In other words; don't always take an ESFj at their face value. We can be very devious. :wink:

[CILi]

Of course, an EP type would be like "Well then, make it change!" To which the LII responds, "Uh, yeah, that doesn't seem possible, for the following reasons..."

If you did everything in your power to suppress "the reasons" or (somehow) consciously ignore them, could you then make said change?

(Or is that kinda too un-LII?)

[Zed]

@Krig: I'm sorry, that post was not specifically directed at you, just the first bit, I should learn to structure my posts better. I understand that not all of you will be interested in my little "project", if no-one shows any interest I'll let this thread die naturally or perhaps just use it for journaling. This is personal so I'm going to go ahead with it.

This "psychological distance" may not mean the same thing to the two of us, I am still learning socionics but within the system currently in my head it is any psychological factors that hinder dualization. I think everyone has a persona or a mask they present to the outside world in shallow social interactions because of the obvious benefits, and that, for example, would prevent dualization from occurring. I do not always have my TiNe on display.

To use an analogy, I see dual pairs as individual chemical substances that must make contact in order to react. External factors, joint activities etc. could act as catalysts.The persona limits the number of collisions in the reaction to slow it down.

I think those ten minutes can be capitalized on. I know what the problem is - I want to fix it. The ESEs are not always conveniently in a position to have frequent "meaningful contact" with us.

@hotelambush: haha, I think the worst thing about socionics is that it gives us excuses for our weaknesses.

@yellow82: My own story is well, personal. Check your PM in a few minutes.

[Exodus]

@hotelambush: haha, I think the worst thing about socionics is that it gives us excuses for our weaknesses.

Isn't it worse to try to make yourself something you're not? This is really what causes suffering.

[Zed]

Isn't it worse to try to make yourself something you're not? This is really what causes suffering.

Sure, but I think we're inclined to label what we find difficult impossible. It makes an easy way out for us. Life is not supposed to be resistance-free.

We must find the middle ground: to know our limits, but not to exaggerate them.

[Creepy-]

I'm watching an ESE and an LII interact at work right now and silently chuckling to myself. They are a couple [ESE woman, LII man]. LOL @ her amping up her normal level of Fe, egging him on w her playful girlishness, and him eating it up.

<3 duals.

[yellow82]

So I know this is kinda off the subject, but since we're talking duals and ESE-LII have come up I thought I'd put in my two-cents.. .

The more I study LII-ESE duality the more I think ESFj's belong with ESFjs. I have a really close friend that's with another ESFj and their relationship is PERFECT! They are SO extremely happy! Honestly, I'm beginning to think that Identity might be better off for ESFj's. We need to feel appreciated, and half of the time you INTj's make us feel like the scum of the earth.

I have known this friend of mine for 20 years and we have NEVER argued! We see each other nearly every day and it is the best relationship I have ever had.

Maybe INTj's and ESFj's are better off with their Identity? Just a thought. . .

[Crispy]

Maybe INTj's and ESFj's are better off with their Identity? Just a thought. . .

Why wouldn't you just assume all inter-type relations are wrong if you think one is wrong? There's a reason ESE's need ... it brings consistency.

[Creepy-Snaps]

So I know this is kinda off the subject, but since we're talking duals and ESE-LII have come up I thought I'd put in my two-cents.. .

The more I study LII-ESE duality the more I think ESFj's belong with ESFjs. I have a really close friend that's with another ESFj and their relationship is PERFECT! They are SO extremely happy! Honestly, I'm beginning to think that Identity might be better off for ESFj's. We need to feel appreciated, and half of the time you INTj's make us feel like the scum of the earth.

I have known this friend of mine for 20 years and we have NEVER argued! We see each other nearly every day and it is the best relationship I have ever had.

Maybe INTj's and ESFj's are better off with their Identity? Just a thought. . .

Well, don't forget, Identity is ranked as the 2nd best relationship, right behind Duality... and practically speaking, I think ESEs are more common than LIIs, so not everyone will be paired with their dual. So certainly, you can have your soulmate be your Identity.

I wouldn't still say overall that it's "better". Maybe you've encountered undeveloped LIIs. There are good/bad PEOPLE of each type, of course. And Duality is the toughest relationship to form... once you get past each obstacle, it gets stronger... but there are plenty of obstacles! And each one is tough.

In your observations of ESE-LII dualities, where you say LIIs make the ESEs feel horrible, how long had they been together? You talking about relationships, romantically, or just friends?

[Krig the Viking]

So I know this is kinda off the subject, but since we're talking duals and ESE-LII have come up I thought I'd put in my two-cents.. .

The more I study LII-ESE duality the more I think ESFj's belong with ESFjs. I have a really close friend that's with another ESFj and their relationship is PERFECT! They are SO extremely happy! Honestly, I'm beginning to think that Identity might be better off for ESFj's. We need to feel appreciated, and half of the time you INTj's make us feel like the scum of the earth.

I have known this friend of mine for 20 years and we have NEVER argued! We see each other nearly every day and it is the best relationship I have ever had.

Maybe INTj's and ESFj's are better off with their Identity? Just a thought. . .

Identity is great, but there's one major difficulty: you have the same problems and insecurities, and are unable to help each other with them. I know an SEI-SEI married couple, who are getting ready to have a baby. They are woefully unprepared, because neither of them has thought through all the possibilities and practicalities of what they might need to prepare for. Likewise, two LIIs would go from "lonely" to "lonely together", and two ESEs would go from "an anchorless ship tossed about in storms of emotion", to "two anchorless ships tossed about in storms of emotion".

Identity is good for sympathy and sharpening your strengths, but it leaves your weaknesses just as vulnerable as before.

Well, don't forget, Identity is ranked as the 2nd best relationship, right behind Duality... and practically speaking, I think ESEs are more common than LIIs, so not everyone will be paired with their dual. So certainly, you can have your soulmate be your Identity.

I wouldn't still say overall that it's "better". Maybe you've encountered undeveloped LIIs. There are good/bad PEOPLE of each type, of course. And Duality is the toughest relationship to form... once you get past each obstacle, it gets stronger... but there are plenty of obstacles! And each one is tough.

In your observations of ESE-LII dualities, where you say LIIs make the ESEs feel horrible, how long had they been together? You talking about relationships, romantically, or just friends?

Indeed.

Although I disagree that there are more ESEs than LIIs. ESEs may be more outgoing, and therefore more visible in society, but types seem to be distributed roughly equally in the population.

[chip]

my impression of identicals is they seem like a shelter. They provide safety, warmth and comfort when you feel you are without such pleasantries. Duality is like an impenatrable fortress with many afronts to keep you out however once you've managed to sneak inside, even part of the way, the realisation that your seeing something entirely new is life changing. The greastest aspect is once inside you can return with ease by uttering the right password so to speak.

Among other things I actually consider ESE to see the glass half empty. I actually find I introduce a postive outlook upon my ESE friends. Simply put they see the worst in any given situation and especially themselves. What I mean to say I have good self-esteem and do not need to people praise me or I assume they think little of me.

again another impression, typically LII have higher self-esteem than ESE and ESE have higher narcissism than LII. A ESE couple likely satisfy each others narcisstic needs but have little effect in raising their self-esteem and for ESE self-esteem is their weak points, and, as Krig the viking was suggesting in indentical relationships, they leave your weaknesses unchecked. As a lasting remark I do not mean to suggest self-esteem and narcissism are necessarily polarities but between the LII-ESE duality there is clearly one partner that clearly demonstrates good self-esteem and another partner that demonstrates narcissism. Another important distinguishment to be had is narcissim is a personality trait but like is said "too much of anything is a bad thing", as extreme narcissim can be a disorder.

[Zed]

The more I read posts by LIIs the more apparent it is to me that Ti can be hopelessly subjective. I guess your theories help you sleep at night.

I am not saying I that am never guilty of the same.

[Zed]

So, I've become a little more relaxed with being myself and doing the LII thing, thank you Socionics.

It seems to backfire sometimes. An ESE I know thinks I'm super intelligent and keeps telling her friends this, but when we spend time together she seems to panic if I'm a little too heavy on the Ti.

She seems to think she has to have a very smart response to everything I say. For example, we were playing System Shock 2 the other day, one of my favorite games, and I tell her about the clever game design descisions made by Ken Levine and his team. She asks a whole lot of questions, but then I ask her opinion on something and she chokes. Maybe she thinks a simple "that's great" won't do the trick and I expect some sort of essay in answer.

I'm not quite sure what to say without making her feel stupid, because she isn't. It's just that she's not as analytical as I am.

How do I avoid this?

//Yes, another duality post from Zed. I'll stop when I have success.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Say nothing.

Kiss her.

(Repeat as needed.)

Focus less on what's different between you two, and more on what you both have in common.

[stray]

SS2 is great.

She sounds cool. I know one who gets a little critical if I "overanalyze" (we've changed as we've grown older though). Next time it happens, I'd suggest just making a joke about yourself.. not in some overdone/disingenuous way, but an observation in your own words how your analytical tendencies have backfired.

[Pa3s]

So, I've become a little more relaxed with being myself and doing the LII thing, thank you Socionics.

Well, I guess it's a little too blunt to just tell her she doesn't need to be afraid of appearing stupid... even though it would be possible. You could tell her that you enjoy talking to her because of certain reasons, it might relax her if she knows it. Other than that you could try to tame your analytical nature if you are together, if that's achieveable for you.

[blackburry]

yeeeah, i understand the feeling on occasion as well. my answers are on the simplier side, and at times i feel self-consious about it. what works for me, probably will work for her-- tell her you like her just as she is, and act like it.

[Jarno]

I'm not quite sure what to say without making her feel stupid, because she isn't. It's just that she's not as analytical as I am.

How do I avoid this?

from my personal experience with my dumb dual the SEE, I can tell you that I never try to bring up a philosophical topic or so, it won't work. You have to keep the conversation casual and then is duality at it's best.

You wouldn't like duality if your dual wants you to sing and dance all evening in a karaoke bar would you?

Stay away from your specialism and keep things casual and shared interests.

[ashlesha]

from my personal experience with my dumb dual the SEE, I can tell you that I never try to bring up a philosophical topic or so, it won't work. You have to keep the conversation casual and then is duality at it's best.

You wouldn't like duality if your dual wants you to sing and dance all evening in a karaoke bar would you?

Stay away from your specialism and keep things casual and shared interests.

i'm curious what you think the point of duality is.

[Krig the Viking]

So, I've become a little more relaxed with being myself and doing the LII thing, thank you Socionics.

It seems to backfire sometimes. An ESE I know thinks I'm super intelligent and keeps telling her friends this, but when we spend time together she seems to panic if I'm a little too heavy on the Ti.

She seems to think she has to have a very smart response to everything I say. For example, we were playing System Shock 2 the other day, one of my favorite games, and I tell her about the clever game design descisions made by Ken Levine and his team. She asks a whole lot of questions, but then I ask her opinion on something and she chokes. Maybe she thinks a simple "that's great" won't do the trick and I expect some sort of essay in answer.

I'm not quite sure what to say without making her feel stupid, because she isn't. It's just that she's not as analytical as I am.

How do I avoid this?

//Yes, another duality post from Zed. I'll stop when I have success.

You say it mostly happens when you ask her opinion on something you've been explaining? It sounds like you're asking her for an opinion on something she doesn't really have an opinion on (i.e., she's just trusting your opinion). Sort of like if she asked you which pair of shoes go best with her dress -- you won't likely have an opinion, but you trust her opinion on Sensory matters to be correct.

It actually sounds to me like you might be accidentally causing her to rely on her Role Te somehow. What sorts of questions are you asking that trigger this response? If it's anything along the lines of "Do you think this is an effective way to do things?", or something that could be interpreted to mean that, then it probably is a Role Te thing.

[buckland]

You say it mostly happens when you ask her opinion on something you've been explaining? It sounds like you're asking her for an opinion on something she doesn't really have an opinion on (i.e., she's just trusting your opinion). Sort of like if she asked you which pair of shoes go best with her dress -- you won't likely have an opinion, but you trust her opinion on Sensory matters to be correct.

It actually sounds to me like you might be accidentally causing her to rely on her Role Te somehow. What sorts of questions are you asking that trigger this response? If it's anything along the lines of "Do you think this is an effective way to do things?", or something that could be interpreted to mean that, then it probably is a Role Te thing.

I get what you're saying but once you start altering you mannerisms to please someone, you may unintentionally remove some of your better qualities. Instead of tempering your attributes, let her get used to them. Socionics gives you a bit of a head start whenever meeting people, and you need them to catch up and realise why this will/won't work at their own pace.

Saying that, my relationship record is laughable so heed this at your own peril.

[Krig the Viking]

I get what you're saying but once you start altering you mannerisms to please someone, you may unintentionally remove some of your better qualities. Instead of tempering your attributes, let her get used to them. Socionics gives you a bit of a head start whenever meeting people, and you need them to catch up and realise why this will/won't work at their own pace.

Saying that, my relationship record is laughable so heed this at your own peril.

Actually, I deliberately wasn't recommending he change or not change his behaviour, just trying to analyze the source of the problem. It's not a problem I've encountered before in my somewhat limited experience with ESEs, so I don't feel qualified to offer advice on what to do about it, just speculations as to the cause.

[chip]

"I've hit a snag with an ESE" you can say that again!

[yellow82]

So, I've become a little more relaxed with being myself and doing the LII thing, thank you Socionics.

It seems to backfire sometimes. An ESE I know thinks I'm super intelligent and keeps telling her friends this, but when we spend time together she seems to panic if I'm a little too heavy on the Ti.

She seems to think she has to have a very smart response to everything I say. For example, we were playing System Shock 2 the other day, one of my favorite games, and I tell her about the clever game design descisions made by Ken Levine and his team. She asks a whole lot of questions, but then I ask her opinion on something and she chokes. Maybe she thinks a simple "that's great" won't do the trick and I expect some sort of essay in answer.

I'm not quite sure what to say without making her feel stupid, because she isn't. It's just that she's not as analytical as I am.

How do I avoid this?

//Yes, another duality post from Zed. I'll stop when I have success.

This may come as a surprise to you, but you're already having success. Anyone I highly praise behind their backs I think extremely highly of and if they're a young fellow my age I'd probably date them.

However, that being said. Krig's right. . . she wants to impress you so much that she clams up when you ask her questions that she was asking you.

Generally, we only ask questions about things that we don't know or have no opinion on ourselves. So when you ask her her opinion she will scramble for an opinion just to please you, and yes, this may cause her to feel stupid.

My thoughts? When she asks you a question answer it and then ask her a question that applies to her sensing function. . . ESE/LII couples that I have known are generally very good at this.

The ESE will go: Honey dearest I was wondering about this book and I was wondering what your opinion was.

The LII will go: My opinion is: blah blah blah, now how do you think that we could apply that to our lives and should we?

Either that, or you can be like: my opinion is blah, blah, blah, but I've had no personal experience. Do you know from personal experience if this is true, or have you heard of anyone that has? [Etc. . . the sensing questions are endless. ]

Mmmm. . . ::nods:: duality is awesome.

Haha. Fyi, I was talking to one of the lady ESE's that has an LII husband about a book and she was like, "my husband says such and such about it" and I was like, didn't you read it? And she says, "why do I need to read it? My husband loves to read it and then express his opinion afterwards. . . after I know what the book is about I've gleaned all the information I need to go about my day."

Classic.

One thing I've noticed about their relationship is he does most of the thinking and analyzing, she does most of the socializing and household work. They're really a great team and they have one of the best relationships I've ever seen.

[07490]

from my personal experience with my dumb dual the SEE, I can tell you that I never try to bring up a philosophical topic or so, it won't work. You have to keep the conversation casual and then is duality at it's best.

You wouldn't like duality if your dual wants you to sing and dance all evening in a karaoke bar would you?

Stay away from your specialism and keep things casual and shared interests.

True. Your strongest strongest points in your personality is not something they do, but maybe admire, forcing it on them seems harsh, so maybe it best fit to be more casual and humble on your strongest point, its not like you are competing with your identical on what you do best.

[EyeSeeCold]

You say it mostly happens when you ask her opinion on something you've been explaining? It sounds like you're asking her for an opinion on something she doesn't really have an opinion on (i.e., she's just trusting your opinion). Sort of like if she asked you which pair of shoes go best with her dress -- you won't likely have an opinion, but you trust her opinion on Sensory matters to be correct.

/thread

D types and N types - ExxJs and IxxJs, are mixed in a relationship of proposal-advocation. I've called ESEs out on their shallowness but they are fated to the systems they adopt, it's not their fault. It'd be ideal for someone to give them the right system to advocate so they don't have to rely on their lacking selves and made to look like a fool. However LIIs also benefit from having their own system praised and demonstrated for all to see.

It's the same thing(well, with some variation)for LSEs & EIIs, LIEs & ESIs, and EIEs & LSIs.

[Mariano Rajoy]

So, I've become a little more relaxed with being myself and doing the LII thing, thank you Socionics.

It seems to backfire sometimes. An ESE I know thinks I'm super intelligent and keeps telling her friends this, but when we spend time together she seems to panic if I'm a little too heavy on the Ti.

She seems to think she has to have a very smart response to everything I say. For example, we were playing System Shock 2 the other day, one of my favorite games, and I tell her about the clever game design descisions made by Ken Levine and his team. She asks a whole lot of questions, but then I ask her opinion on something and she chokes. Maybe she thinks a simple "that's great" won't do the trick and I expect some sort of essay in answer.

I'm not quite sure what to say without making her feel stupid, because she isn't. It's just that she's not as analytical as I am.

How do I avoid this?

//Yes, another duality post from Zed. I'll stop when I have success.

Perhaps not asking her opinion is the best option.

Instead make her feel at ease by bringing the conversation to her area of confidence. Given that she likes to listen to your Ti ramblings, thank her for it. "Thanks for listening, it makes me feel warm inside, etc." Give a hug, or a kissy kiss.

Also, make sure to be enthusiastic upon greetings and farewells. If she says "I feel bad/like shit", always reply "I never would have known because you look great". When parting be enthusiastic about the next meeting.

Try asking her help with something she is good at. Maybe if she knows how to sew a button, care for a puppy, etc., feign ignorance and ask for her help then reward her with a hug and flowers, maybe more. And the system shock 2 thing, if it is a 2 player game, thank her for letting you win.

Basically compliment how clever she is by bringing attention to what she is good at. (The alternative is true for homely but intelligent girls; compliment their beauty.)

[Jarno]

i'm curious what you think the point of duality is.

Duality is for me about a buzz in your head, feeling protected and complete. But it won't work if you use your specialism with all the jargon that comes with it. That is better for identicals. First you need to find shared interest so you can build your relationship with your dual.

What is duality about according to you?

[Jarno]

True. Your strongest strongest points in your personality is not something they do, but maybe admire, forcing it on them seems harsh, so maybe it best fit to be more casual and humble on your strongest point, its not like you are competing with your identical on what you do best.

bolded part... exactly!

[Nowisthetime]

Duality is for me about a buzz in your head, feeling protected and complete. But it won't work if you use your specialism with all the jargon that comes with it.

This.

[Exodus]

from my personal experience with my dumb dual the SEE, I can tell you that I never try to bring up a philosophical topic or so, it won't work. You have to keep the conversation casual and then is duality at it's best.

SEEs aren't dumb.

Zed: This whole thing is maybe 80% intelligence, 20% type. Idk what to do about it, but maybe you could tell her exactly what you're thinking about it? That's usually the best approach with duals, since they will usually understand exactly how you feel. Or you could try to dumb yourself down like Jarno is saying.