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Thread: On Ne and Si as Childlike and Caring styles

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    Default On Ne and Si as Childlike and Caring styles

    Recovered from my draft.


    EP: Static irrational --> assumes that present state of being is constant but unhappy with this, aiming at changing it
    Ne: more in touch with potentials, "alternate realities", ideas, than with physical realities including own physical well-being

    EP Ne: when in a state of less than optimal physical well being, assumes (or fears) that it is stable, desires to change it, but unware of how to achieve it --> action must be taken to achieve that, unaware of precisely how

    IP: Dynamic irrational --> assumes that present state of being is in constant change and contented with this
    Si: in touch with physical realities including sense of well being

    IP Si: assumes that states of physical well-being are in constant change and contented with this situation, although obviously preferring that said changes are towards more positive sensations

    EJ Si: assumes that state of physical well-being are in constant change and aims at anticipating them, proactively steeting them towards optimal level

    IJ Ne: assumes that state of physical well-being is static and is reassured by this if said state is positive, but ennerved when the physical state gets "stuck" in a negative state

    Infantile Ne: stems from drive to change state of less than ideal physical well-being, and helplessness in achieving it: "I need to change my state of physical well-being for the better, but I don't know how"

    Caregiver Si: stems from awareness that states of physical well-being are always changing.

    So, metaphorically (not as examples of what actual persons say to one another):

    Static Ne says to Si: "I am not sure I am really feeling comfortable" or "I do not know how to make me feel comfortable".

    Dynamic Si says to Ne: "This will change".

    For EP Ne - IP Si:

    EP Ne's: "I do not know how to make myself feel comfortable, and this state must change, help me change it right now"
    IP Si's: "Ok I can help you change that now if that's what you want".

    The EP Ne responds: "It happened again, I do not know how to make myself feel comfortable, and this state must change, help me change it right now"
    IP Si: "No problem, I can help you change now if that's what you want, I can do that any time"

    EJ Si's: "I think you are not feeling comfortable, or will not feel comfortable soon, I will change that"
    IJ Ne's: "I can't see how I can feel more comfortable, I am afraid I am stuck on this state, but if you can, change it"

    The point is that both EP Ne and EJ Si are the ones to take the initiative, even if one is the Infantile and the other is the Caregiver.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Blaze's Avatar
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    Or, the Ne says to the Si, bring it on baby, I need it baaad.

    hahaha don't mind me.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze8
    Or, the Ne says to the Si, bring it on baby, I need it baaad.

    hahaha don't mind me.
    In German we call it "the second Spring"
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze8
    Or, the Ne says to the Si, bring it on baby, I need it baaad.

    hahaha don't mind me.
    From what I've seen. Si sees Ne agitated, jumpy and aggressive; Si thinks they need it so bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    From what I've seen. Si sees Ne agitated, jumpy and aggressive; Si thinks they need it so bad.
    Good point.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    @Expat: Good post, nice ideas. Your idea of how to view E and I based on contentedness with change or stasis is making more and more sense to me.

    However, you examples, in trying to be true to the idea that extraverts take the initiative and that Sis are the caretakers, make it appear that only extraverts proclaim that they (or their partners) have needs, and furthermore that sensors have all the solutions. Most Socionic descriptions of duality and other positive relations suggest more of a two-way interaction (e.g., surely there's a problem the Sis have that the Nes solve??).

    In my observations, introverts may make their needs known to their partners quite a bit, even though they take less initiative in social situations....although I'd agree that sometimes they communicate their needs non-verbally, and it takes their partners to draw them out.

    One other thing that seems strange to me is that Ij is described as being comfortable with stasis, but still wants the change Ej offers anyway. It's a kind of contradiction, reflected in your wording. I would suspect that what Ijs get from Ejs isn't that they want to be taken out of their comfortable place. Rather, it seems to me more as if the Ej takes care of the changing stuff that the Ij fears so that the Ij doesn't have to and can thus remain in that comfortable non-change position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze8
    Or, the Ne says to the Si, bring it on baby, I need it baaad.

    hahaha don't mind me.
    From what I've seen. Si sees Ne agitated, jumpy and aggressive; Si thinks they need it so bad.
    ROFLMAO!!!
    Yes! This is more accurate! I think.
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Most Socionic descriptions of duality and other positive relations suggest more of a two-way interaction (e.g., surely there's a problem the Sis have that the Nes solve??).
    Yes, but this is not meant as a full description of all aspects of duality. If I were describing the a full, say, ENTp-ISFp duality, I would do it differently. My aim was simply to describe the Caregiver-Infantile aspects of the interaction.

    What Ne gives Si is a sense of other possibilities for optimizing Si sensations -- perhaps we can call it an infantile "sense of wonder" but I was focusing only on the Caregiver bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    One other thing that seems strange to me is that Ij is described as being comfortable with stasis, but still wants the change Ej offers anyway. It's a kind of contradiction, reflected in your wording.
    There is no contradiction in my mind. IJ takes stasis for granted; that is very good if the present static state is seen as agreeable. The other side of the coin is that if it is not seen as agreeable, the IJ is like "shit, I'm never going to get out of this".

    As I said:

    IJ Ne: assumes that state of physical well-being is static and is reassured by this if said state is positive, but ennerved when the physical state gets "stuck" in a negative state

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I would suspect that what Ijs get from Ejs isn't that they want to be taken out of their comfortable place. Rather, it seems to me more as if the Ej takes care of the changing stuff that the Ij fears so that the Ij doesn't have to and can thus remain in that comfortable non-change position.
    I think that even an IJ knows that change comes; it is the transition between different states - preferably from an unpleasant to a pleasant one - that is "managed" by the EJ. However, within a pleasant static state, what you say makes sense.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    I agree with everything, just adding that it works both sides, this way:

    Si: I am bored to death having sex the same position all the time
    Ne: Oh we can try mechanical gadgets, having sex in the garden in public, Kamasutra, or a threesome, etc....

    Si: I am bored to death always eating the same stuff
    Ne: Oh we can get those recipes from the internet and do this that those blah blha blah

    Si: I am bored to death always living here
    Ne: Oh we can fly to the canaries norway blah blah blah
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze8
    Or, the Ne says to the Si, bring it on baby, I need it baaad.

    hahaha don't mind me.
    From what I've seen. Si sees Ne agitated, jumpy and aggressive; Si thinks they need it so bad.
    ROFLMAO!!!
    Yes! This is more accurate! I think.
    yeah, they respond for sure. but Ne asks for it. quite directly, too. *smiles wickedly*

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I agree with everything, just adding that it works both sides, this way:

    Si: I am bored to death having sex the same position all the time
    Ne: Oh we can try mechanical gadgets, having sex in the garden in public, Kamasutra, or a threesome, etc....

    Si: I am bored to death always eating the same stuff
    Ne: Oh we can get those recipes from the internet and do this that those blah blha blah

    Si: I am bored to death always living here
    Ne: Oh we can fly to the canaries norway blah blah blah
    Sure. That is a broader understanding of the Ne-Si duality.

    This sounds to me more like the Si IP - Ne EP interaction. The Si IP gets bored when the dynamic changes do not, uhn, "catch up" with the irrationality of the Si IP. They s/he needs to "borrow" the energy of the Ne EP's never-ending fight against boredom.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Good notes
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    The other day I was really tired and kind of half asleep and buttoned a cardigan up totally wrong, LOL. At which point I sighed, and complained that life is hard. And my SLI bf actually just walked over and re-buttoned it for me, which was funny to me, but helpful.

    We must appear so stupid and helpless to the caregivers, lol. But in a funny charming inept sort of way (hopefully).
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    i wonder how it works with se and ni...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    This sounds to me more like the Si IP - Ne EP interaction. The Si IP gets bored when the dynamic changes do not, uhn, "catch up" with the irrationality of the Si IP. They s/he needs to "borrow" the energy of the Ne EP's never-ending fight against boredom.
    This feels incomplete without describing Si EJ and Ne IJ. It seems to me that Si EJ would get flustered when it seems that the dynamic changes are "getting out of control", and trending negative. The Ne IJ reassures her by using Ne to point out all the static things that are not changing, and the ways in which the situation could return to stability. I think there might be a bit of Demonstrative/PoLR Ni at work there as well.
    Quaero Veritas.

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