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Thread: Te type descriptions - resurrected

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    Default Te type descriptions - resurrected

    Most type descriptions have been written by INTJs and ENTPs. One result of this is the overwhelming majority of alphas on these sites. The type descriptions are in a form that does not attract Te thinkers. Also the level of understanding about types with poor relations with the INTJ is absurdly bad. So... There is a need for an opposing point of view, another kind of type description.

    The current Ti - descriptions try to describe _what_ a person is like and give names to them and their abilities.

    The Te type description would mostly describe how a person acts, what kind of trouble you are likely to end up with him and why and how you should treat him to gain a certain result.

    Hell-raising-warning. This thread is likely to be a non-fi area. So be cool.
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    Eidos



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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Good idea...

    Another thing that would be great to do would be to construct the profiles in are more methodical way... Having a sample of, for example, a sufficiently large number of ENTj's and getting independant observers to rate their behavioral traits based on videos, etc. Or having people close to the ENTj describing him, how he acts, how he reacts...
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Great idea . . . except maybe it shouldn't be on the gamma thread.

    Maybe the what's my type category.

    Also SE what do you mean by "Also the level of understanding about types with poor relations with the INTJ is absurdly bad. " Do you mean the understanding of those types is poor, or the understanding of the relations with intj is poor?
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Blaze wrote:
    Great idea . . . except maybe it shouldn't be on the gamma thread.


    Sure it should. We're looking for a Te-based type description, which will definitely get a rise out of non-gammas and writing it somewhere else will just result in more flaming. Besides, the gamma forum needs all the posts it can get Laughing


    Blaze wrote:

    Also SE what do you mean by "Also the level of understanding about types with poor relations with the INTJ is absurdly bad. " Do you mean the understanding of those types is poor, or the understanding of the relations with intj is poor?


    Both. Neither. Don't take it too seriously. It's not a scientific argument. Just that if a person can not understand the people one can not get along with, one can't make a good type description out of them. Another reason why I expect this thread might get some alphas screaming blue murder Wink
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Eidos. You had a nice post on the Fe thread about the ENTJ. It seemed like it would have gone here better. It had all the nice Te things: instructions on how to handle and corrections to common errors. Did you delete it or what happened to it? Would you like to repost it?
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    Eidos. You had a nice post on the Fe thread about the ENTJ. It seemed like it would have gone here better. It had all the nice Te things: instructions on how to handle and corrections to common errors. Did you delete it or what happened to it? Would you like to repost it?


    Thanks man. I actually deleted it because I realized later as you say it didn't belong in the Fe thread... It just came out "Te" automatically... unfortunately I copied it, but forgot to paste it after Sad Maybe I can check with the admin...
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    Blaze wrote:
    Great idea . . . except maybe it shouldn't be on the gamma thread.


    Sure it should. We're looking for a Te-based type description, which will definitely get a rise out of non-gammas and writing it somewhere else will just result in more flaming. Besides, the gamma forum needs all the posts it can get Laughing


    Blaze wrote:

    Also SE what do you mean by "Also the level of understanding about types with poor relations with the INTJ is absurdly bad. " Do you mean the understanding of those types is poor, or the understanding of the relations with intj is poor?


    Both. Neither. Don't take it too seriously. It's not a scientific argument. Just that if a person can not understand the people one can not get along with, one can't make a good type description out of them. Another reason why I expect this thread might get some alphas screaming blue murder Wink


    What will come is gamma related biases.

    Although the compliment is really belonging to me for bringing up the topic in the first place . . . Razz

    I don't think I was taking you too seriously just asking you explain what you said.[/b]
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    I would like to write some new type descriptions since my 2nd function is Te, but my descriptions would be ultimately way more Ni than anything. So, if a Te-Ni type description is "how a person acts, what kind of trouble you are likely to end up with him and why and how you should treat him to gain a certain result," then an Ni-Te description would probably be:

    How a person acts given a situation, insight into why a person acts that way, ultimately emphasizing the central motives lying behind every action, and a generally negative atmosphere (since negative behaviors offer more insight into the "depth" of a person than positive ones.)

    It's about as impractical as you can get, but you must understand something before you can use it to its ultimate potential.


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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    When you meet her, she will be active. She will do something that seems senseless. She might invade your private space. She might come at you either with a funny story or a gush of feeling. She doesn't really care about you though she is trying to make herself happy by acting out. Somewhere deep inside of herself there lives a deep unhappiness and she is trying to get rid of it. Sometimes she succeeds, sometimes she looks at herself in the mirror and just lives with what she sees, but usually she's just trying to run.

    She's your conflictor, the ISFp. Watch out for the emotional response you might have. It will get you down and you'll still be unable to help her in any way. Remember that the things she says aren't targeted at you, she just needs to say them. She will probably be quite consistent in her actions and aims, in this sense you can rely on her. Also, after the first few meetings she will herself try to avoid you recognising that you are unable to help her in her main purpose, feeling better. Unfortunately this will not stop her trying to make herself feer better on your expense. Whatever happened between you two she will likely tell to everyone she knows. She will either add her own embellishments or use the force of pure pathos to make people feer sorry for her and hate you.

    She is not really looking for an advantage for herself by her actions, thus enlightened self-interest will not stop her from trying to hurt you. Neither can you bribe her or convince her to stop.

    Your agenda: Get rid of her quickly as you can, she's your conflictor. No good will come of the meeting.

    Tactical tips: She's looking for a happy encounter. Don't give her one. Don't be offensive because whatever you do will become known to everyone, just act very unhappy, be brief and get away from the situation. If you don't have a fallback position it's very easy to get rid of her by attacking her verbally. So if you really have to do it, you can be confident of the results.

    Mental note: There will come a day when you remember her and really really feel bad about how you've acted towards her. A hope will rise in your heart that maybe you could help her after all. You'll want to do something nice to her. If you REALLY have to, do it anonymously. It's better that she thinks you're a miserable bastard.

    Watch out: 1) For her posse. 2) Surprises during first contact. 3) You might be mistaken, she might really be an INFp.
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    When you meet her, she will be active. She will do something that seems senseless. She might invade your private space. She might come at you either with a funny story or a gush of feeling. She doesn't really care about you though she is trying to make herself happy by acting out. Somewhere deep inside of herself there lives a deep unhappiness and she is trying to get rid of it. Sometimes she succeeds, sometimes she looks at herself in the mirror and just lives with what she sees, but usually she's just trying to run.

    She's your conflictor, the ISFp. Watch out for the emotional response you might have. It will get you down and you'll still be unable to help her in any way. Remember that the things she says aren't targeted at you, she just needs to say them. She will probably be quite consistent in her actions and aims, in this sense you can rely on her. Also, after the first few meetings she will herself try to avoid you recognising that you are unable to help her in her main purpose, feeling better. Unfortunately this will not stop her trying to make herself feer better on your expense. Whatever happened between you two she will likely tell to everyone she knows. She will either add her own embellishments or use the force of pure pathos to make people feer sorry for her and hate you.

    She is not really looking for an advantage for herself by her actions, thus enlightened self-interest will not stop her from trying to hurt you. Neither can you bribe her or convince her to stop.

    Your agenda: Get rid of her quickly as you can, she's your conflictor. No good will come of the meeting.

    Tactical tips: She's looking for a happy encounter. Don't give her one. Don't be offensive because whatever you do will become known to everyone, just act very unhappy, be brief and get away from the situation. If you don't have a fallback position it's very easy to get rid of her by attacking her verbally. So if you really have to do it, you can be confident of the results.

    Mental note: There will come a day when you remember her and really really feel bad about how you've acted towards her. A hope will rise in your heart that maybe you could help her after all. You'll want to do something nice to her. If you REALLY have to, do it anonymously. It's better that she thinks you're a miserable bastard.

    Watch out: 1) For her posse. 2) Surprises during first contact. 3) You might be mistaken, she might really be an INFp.


    Where the fuck were you when we needed you?

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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Dioklecian wrote:

    Where the fuck were you when we needed you?

    Welcome


    Now that's a strange thing to say. I was here first you know Smile

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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    This guy is laid back. He's self-satisfied and happy like he was on a morphine high. He controls his environment and if he wanted it any different, he'd change it. He might not look like much, but you need to remember that whenever he's around, your on his turf. He's you're supervisor, the ISTp.

    He'll make you angry, one way or another. He'll good-heartedly question the reason for your efforts, he'll tell you to lighten up and take it easy. He'll tell you you're wasting your time. He might make claims of his capabilities that you find hard to believe. He'll act like you're a stuck-up snob and he's probably relatively correct.

    You won't be in the same work environment as he is too often. If you are and he's your boss you can manage it, but you'll probably do better somewhere else, it's not that he's harmful to your work, quite the opposite. The problem is he's bad for your career.

    In social life, it's easy to avoid him and best to do so.

    Trouble arises when you need something from your supervisor. It's almost impossible for you to motivate him positively. He's as happy as a clam as things stand. A simple business transaction will often go awry as mere money won't usually be enough. Attempts to push him usually fall to deaf ears. ISTps don't like it when people think that they're good for nothing except plumbers. Thing is, that's the kind of situation you're most likely to be forced to deal with him. Your house is flooding and your plumber's busy with a bacon sandwich and a cigarette. You're f**ked.

    The really good thing about your supervisor is that he will never push himself at you, he will never intrude. Just don't let his existence rule your thoughts.

    Your agenda: Ignore and forget. This guy pwns you, and not in a good way.

    Tactical tips: If you actually want to get fired up and pissed off, arguing with this guy can do the trick. Beware though, it can be addictive and will probably do you no good in the long run. Better stick with INTps. Also remember that while you'll get fired up, he'll just get bitter and retreat further inside of himself.

    Mental note: If you really really desperately need his assistance, you might consider pleading pitifully. You'll hate doing it, but if you make him socially uncomfortable, he might feel obligated to actually do something. You need to make him confused and embarrassed to achieve this, you need to force him to prove himself that he's as good as he thinks he is.

    Watch out: His happiness with himself might make you feel envious, want to try the life he's living. Don't! It's not for you. It'll just make you unhappy and cost you in the long run.
    Don't make him too angry. 9 times out of 10 he not just pwns your psyche but can kick your ass if he feels so inclined.
    Even when his work results seem satisfactory, watch out. He will have used short-cuts and quick fixes to problems. The results will eventually show up.

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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    If I had any doubts that the quality manager in this company is an ISTp, not anymore after reading this description.
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    Sycophant wrote:
    You think that is good? You should see the letters the man writes me. Razz


    What man? Are you sure it's safe to deal out your postal address to people you meet in the net?

    Damn thread hijackings.
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    I don't have the ability to stay within the bounds of a topic. It's like water, it moves.

    Te descriptions would be great. I always thought that there should be a place with 16 type descriptions for each type, one written by every other type about the behavior and relationship with the type you are writing about. That would take forever though, and is not going to happen.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:24 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Sycophant wrote:
    Quote:
    I don't have the ability to stay within the bounds of a topic. It's like water, it moves.

    Te descriptions would be great. I always thought that there should be a place with 16 type descriptions for each type, one written by every other type about the behavior and relationship with the type you are writing about. That would take forever though, and is not going to happen.


    Te descriptions are insightful... What you said is something I was thinking about, except the part where every type writes. Actually, it would be even better... That's a great idea. I started somewhat in the Delta section with a crude ESTJ description. With more experience, I would not mind writing descriptions at all.

    Sorry, I'm derailing the thread... continue Wink .
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    This person is one of the most difficult one's to handle correctly. He's your illusionary partner, the ISTj.

    When you encounter him, the important thing is who is in control. There are no clear rules for this that you might understand, but you will see it from his behaviour. If he's confident, proactive and feels in charge he will operate with you in a manner he feels is correct, standard and efficient. If what you receive from him in this manner is what you wanted or close enough, you should be happy and content. You can survive and even flourish in these circumstances even if this guy is your boss. If the results are not satisfactory, you should not complain about the person responsible but of the results themselves. It is not "correct" in his mind to listen to complaints from people of lower rank but on the other hand it is not "correct" to let yourself make mistakes.

    If you are a colleague and technically on the same level as he is, you are likely considered of lower rank, though proven capability, superior knowledge or longer work experience might make him consider you a superior.

    The situation is different if you find the ISTj as your employee or meet him on what he feels unfamiliar ground. This kind of strange situation might make him panic in a very slight way. He will act hurried and his actions will lack meaning. This is the only situation ever in which you will find him receptive to you. Restore his faith. Tell him that everything will be fine, then take charge actively. He will feel very positive about you. If this small panic is the kind of reaction the ISTj tends to have to negative situations, you should consider yourself very lucky. You will find his presence very useful.

    The other kind of reaction that the ISTj might have to an unfamiliar situation is brooding. He might retreat further into his mind, become inactive or start to behave in a ritualistic manner. Typically he might make absurd, passionate complaints and / or try to use the rules he's accustomed to in a situation in which they do not fit. He will try to motivate people around him but do it in a negative way. If this is the kind of behaviour you run into, there's not much you can do. You can passively watch and pity or you can pull rank and use whatever forceful methods you have available to get rid of him.

    On a social level there is some disagreement on the correct procedure. Some believe that the ISTj is most wonderful social company for his illusionary partner. It's certainly something you can try out.

    The reason why acts as he does is that he feels he is compelled to control himself and he feels happiness at his ability to do so. This is his greatest motivation and something for you to remember if not understand.

    Your agenda: Take the money and run. You will never ever understand this person, don't even try to.

    Tactical tips: Never elevate him to a very high position, it's better to reward him with concrete one-shot bonuses.
    Keep him busy and if you can manage scared, that's good too.

    Mental note: Never act in anger in your contacts with him. It's only business.

    Watch out: This person's presence will make you passive and complacent. Even if you find the man pleasant, you should stay separate from him when in work environment. Otherwise it will hurt your actions.
    You might at times completely forget his presence or the amount of power he wields over his environment. Watch your step.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    I know these are Te descriptions but can we include interaction outside of the officeplace?
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Yes, you can Wink

    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...

    Oh you'd like ME to do that? Shocked

    I'm including mostly things that I believe would be useful. I've also started this from description of types that Te-Ni's would not normally have social relations ie. the difficult relationships. As one normally tends to avoid them, one usually encounters them where one can't choose one's company, this usually happens inside an organization with a ready power structure such as an association, a workplace or a family.

    There's also a supposition in this thread that the person reading the material actually has a purpose for interacting with these people. The information tries to help find a good way to achieve this purpose whatever it may be. It's a result-oriented view of the socion. Of course one should only use these tips on a path of virtù. Smile
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Glad to have you back around, Smilingeyes!
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Nice to see you hanging around too.
    Slightly worried though, don't you have anything better to do? Razz Razz
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    Nice to see you hanging around too.
    Slightly worried though, don't you have anything better to do? Razz Razz


    Laughing Everything's running smooth...
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Eidos wrote:

    Laughing Everything's running smooth...


    What do you get when everything's running smoothly?

    A smoothie!

    Hilarious. Rolling Eyes

    Sorry. Carry on. Smile
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    Eidos wrote:

    Laughing Everything's running smooth...


    What do you get when everything's running smoothly?

    A smoothie!

    Hilarious. Rolling Eyes

    Sorry. Carry on. Smile


    Surprised... Confused... Laughing
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    gfjghjgh

    Last edited by Eidos on Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Excellent Eidos! If you don't mind I'll add a bit of something Smile

    Tactical tips:
    If ever you find yourself in a position in which you need to find a "bullet" this is your man: effective, yet expendable.
    If you're very, very intuitive, some of these people might act as your "actiivity partner". If your communication with these people is due to such circumstances very good, you might be able to trust them a lot more than is the standard for this type. Testing required.
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    PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    An INTj and an INTp description would be nice too ...
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    PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Right, I’ll give it a try myself –

    This will not be focused on the workplace, because in my experience, relationships with this type at work are mostly productive and lacking in friction, so nothing remarkable to report. So hopefully Pedro will be pleased - -

    She’s charming, with a radiant smile, and a stylish sense of dress that you can admire if not envy. She makes it easy for you by picking up your genuine interest in her and responding accordingly and encouragingly. What could go wrong? Just one thing: she’s your super-ego, the ESFj.

    The first contacts are always interesting since she’s definitely not the kind of person that expects you to take all the initiative in conversation. She’ll always be happy to talk about a number of subjects and will be knowledgeable about many interesting things, with a gift for telling stories, and make you long for the next encounter.

    Meeting her continues to be very pleasant but, as the relationship develops and contacts become regular, even daily, you start to notice a few things. First, she will have the inclination to tell you, in sequence, the daily events of her day, mostly dealing with her interactions with other people. Sometimes she is going to make a point and want your opinion; but to reach that point, she needs to go, sequentially, through all the events that led to it, and you wonder if that was necessary. Other times she’ll just relate the events of her day without wanting to make any specific points, apparently expecting you to help her make sense of them. You will listen patiently and politely, and sometimes offer comment, but she will spot your lack of genuine interest and find your comments lacking. On the other hand, she will find your own preferred topics of conversation, more related to bigger-picture and longer-term events, puzzling and uninteresting.

    Her inclination will be to try to please you with such things as creating a cozy atmosphere in her place and preparing very nice meals for you, with a lot of effort. These will be sincerely appreciated, but at the same time it will be clear to her that that kind of stuff is not really your strong point, especially when visiting your own less-than-cozy place.

    You will become exasperated at her difficulty to evaluate how long anything is going to take, and how she tends to arrive late or just in the nick of time, and she will get upset at your impatience with unexpected delays and traffic jams.

    Her instinct will be to try to help you to read how others perceive you emotionally, “can’t you see that he simply doesn’t like you”, she’ll say; your instinct will be to give her advice on practical decisions in her life. While not unappreciated, it will be clear that that is not exactly what either of you was needing the most from the other.

    There will be no fights, no serious disagreements; just a sort of strain, stemming from no major issue, just from the different expectations and strengths during such daily interactions.

    When you finally part ways, it will be due to no single crisis or reason; and you will feel guilty at noticing that a sort of psychological stress has been removed.

    Yet, later, you will remember her smile and wonder whether those differences in your psychologies could really have been so important. Especially as she’ll continue to remember to text you on your birthday.

    Tips: regarding work, none. They will be devoted and serious, at the same time as charming, pleasant to work with.

    They will also be real friends who will always be in touch if you reciprocate.
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    [ If you guys want, you can comment on the ESTj description I made in the Delta quadra. I'm very interested about what you Extraverted Thinking people think. Or, you could just write one here. I would appreciate it. ]]
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Extraverted ThinkingIntroverted IntutionExtraverted SensingIntroverted Feeling
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    I'm not sure which one I could or should try next. We're now moving into the "good" relationships, so it becomes more difficult to write.
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    I'd like to see INTj and ISFj.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    These are good! Smile
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Okay now, the other mastermind, your crackpot friend, the king of contrarianism, the keeper of secret alpha knowledge, you all know him, you all love him, please welcome the INTj.

    This is a man who has many talents that resemble yours. You will compete with him at various points in your life. You will argue with him. You will think that he intentionally tries to trip you up more than other people but you're wrong if you think it's personal. You have a way of butting in to people's business and this is a person who doesn't want anybody doing anything on his territory.

    He is smart, passionate, possesses great rectitude and has great vision. This vision makes him want the ability to build what he visualizes in a concrete way but he lacks the ability to do that alone and the willingness to let others join him as cocreators of his grande projects.

    Sometimes there is great worth in this man's projects. Unless you have a long history with him, you will have trouble predicting him, though he is consistent in his actions. (Just not with other people's actions).

    The way you want to operate with this person is, if he's young, stupid or otherwise not very dangerous, just blow him away (not with a gun, you silly creature), just you know, don't care about him, enforce whatever rules you like, be cool, even cold and effective but don't make it personal, it's not worth it.

    If he's on the other hand capable, intelligent, powerful, rich or in any other way seems worthy of anything, you want to be good to him. Offer him compliments, the more grandiose the better. He is quite unable to appraise whether you're honest so just let it fly. You want him to feel good about himself, you want to support him, not in a sense of being a lick-spittle but seriously. He is someone who is trying to create something new and wonderful in the world, something that you have no ability to conceive. You want him to succeed. You want him to believe in his pet project and try to make it reality.

    When he starts believing in himself he becomes happier and will be friendly towards you. He will offer you some kind of position in his project. Negotiate, keep yourself involved but not closely. Keep your distance, see how it goes and try to estimate the worthiness of his project. Learn, make contacts. Don't offer concrete help, this because he doesn't really want any. He's trying to measure his capability, he's having fun, he's on a power trip. If you do anything concrete, you will be blamed and your friendship will be in difficulties.

    Eventually the INTj will notice that he's not really at his best at the concrete stuff. He will get tired, start hesitating, become angry and withdrawn. He wants to get out. Try to make him realise this before he trashes what he's doing. Help him make a profit, sell on what he's achieved. He'll thank you and you deserve it. You will find a way to profit yourself, too. Don't doubt it.

    If you feel inclined to, you can also watch these people from even further away, steal their ideas and use them. It will actually require more out of you than being friendly to them and letting them do more of the work AND it will make you enemies, but it's possible to do.

    Socially, you don't want to get too near to this guy. You will not like his company but the company he carries along is worse. He will also aggravate your friends, offer other people opinions of you of the sort that you don't want to get around and generally make your life difficult.

    Your agenda: Observe, learn, get ready to take control.

    Tactical tips: Be polite to a fault and beyond. Officialness is a good shield but won't make him a friend.
    When possible, use go-betweens to communicate, ESFjs, ENFjs and ESTps are all good at this depending on what you want to achieve.
    Never give him specific information, only generalities. Specifics will make him offer his opinion or even make commands. You don't want that.
    They're suckers for medals, honorary positions and such.

    Mental note: Dealing with INTjs should always be only a side-project for you. If you notice you're spending more time with them than doing other things, stop it.

    Watch out: - The Affects. This man is passionate about things that seem ridiculous to you. You will hurt him incidentally, he will fly into a fit of rage and hurt you intentionally without you understanding why. Then you will feel betrayed and throw your relationship away.
    I'm not kidding about the rage. Seriously. No one else can cause as much damage to your life than this guy if he for some reason has an interest to do so.
    Remember that you don't want to be in a conflict with him. He will always think that he has more to win and less to lose than you do. You will think the same. Therefore, you are not as ready to use as extreme measures as he is. Therefore, you will lose the fight (though you usually win the war, let him do his fighting elsewhere and you win by fiat.)
    His fighting tactics... he will not fight personally. He will use power of authority if he can, second choice is usually flunkies if he has any and the third and most common choice is rabble-rousing: writing columns in papers, rumor-mongering etc. This will result in lies being spread about you. The INTj is NOT a habitual liar, quite the opposite, but he tends to get carried away and forget the specifics in his passion. When he forgets, he confabulates. They do not usually recognize that this is what's happening, but that's what they do.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:

    Unless you have a long history with him, you will have trouble predicting him, though he is consistent in his actions. (Just not with other people's actions).


    Can you rephrase the last sentence? For some reason I wasn't able to understand what it means. Sad
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    schrödinger's cat wrote:
    Smilingeyes wrote:

    Unless you have a long history with him, you will have trouble predicting him, though he is consistent in his actions. (Just not with other people's actions).


    Can you rephrase the last sentence? For some reason I wasn't able to understand what it means. Sad


    Sorry about that. What I meant was that INTjs are creatures of habit. If you know one well, you will be able to predict most of his actions for a couple of years to the future, you will never be surprised. But knowing the habits of one INTj will help you little when you're trying to guess what another INTj might like. They are very inequal. Also, common sense will help you very little at guessing the habits of a particular INTj. You need to observe yourself. Think Darwin, Galapagos islands. Each INTj is an evolutional isolate.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Thanks for the explanation.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Others may think you're the same, but you'd never make this mistake yourself. Your first intinct will be to underestimate him, and that's the mistake you should never make. His weaknesses will be obvious to you, but be aware that yours are visible to him, too. The good thing is that the same will be true of the strengths, at least after some time of mutual observation. He's your comparative, the ESTj.

    You will be relieved to notice that his first instinct is to argue his points through logical argumentation, rather than emotional manipulation, bullshit, or bullying. Whether he is your boss, subordinate, friend, or colleague, he's open to explain his points and clarify disagreements logically. The problem is that his logic operates differently from yours.

    During a first meeting, you may well have the impression that he's a bit narrow-minded and even a bit of a simpleton. That impression will fade away the first time he shows how he's able to assemble and analyze a huge amount of very detailed information in his own field of expertise or interest. What's more, you'll see that he often does that by working very intensively in a short period of time.

    Despite being impressed at this, you'll still think that he was wasting his time and energy on the wrong approach. This is a man whose logic and capacity for work are concentrated in improving what already exists and works, even if for you it's clear that in the longer run such efforts will be in vain due to trends that he's not able to see.

    He'll be open to alternative ways of doing things if those are pointed out to him clearly and logically; he probably won't think of them himself. But once he's convinced, he'll use his energies on that as efficiently as in more familiar territory. This is not a guy who automatically rejects new and untried things; it's rather that those must be pointed out to him.

    Never patronize him on that, though; because once he has mastered something new, he'll be able to enter into its details and work out ways to improve them that are almost beyond you.

    The way to deal with him is always to remain in the realm of logic. Do not ever enter into a dispute over sheer power and pressure with him; in that area he can kick your ass. That may be a problem since this is a guy who also enjoys power and status for its own sake.

    On the other hand, this is a guy who hasn't got a clue of how to use his time efficiently. He'll spend hours working intensively in the details of something that you already know it's not worth the trouble anymore. If you are under his authority, you'll just have to sigh and survive his inclination to evaluate your work by the time you spent working on it, rather than by the overall result. If he's under you, you'll just have to direct the use his detail-oriented energies in the most efficient direction.

    Be aware that this is a "keeping up with the Joneses" kind of guy. Few things disturb him more than the idea that someone he doesn't regard as his equal is doing better than him professionally, materially, or socially. He's also very concerned about status in a established structure - he'll worry about your desk being 1 inch bigger than his if he's your boss. Do not even enter into this kind of discussion with him if not necessary. It's a waste of time. Unless it damages your own effectiveness, let him think he's ahead of you in such things.

    Unlike you, he's very much concerned about how things, and people, look. Fortunately his logic allows him not to judge people sorely on this if they get his respect in other ways.

    Agenda: basically to make him your ally, if possible. To use his strengths if he's under you and to try to guide him in the right direction if he's above you.

    If he's your rival in anything, with you both starting at the same level - it's tricky. You will use your strengths and he'll use his, and may the best one win. Luckily he's not inclined to dirty tricks, lies, bullshit or manipulation; the dispute will remain fair.

    A friendship will be based on common interests and common experiences. Your conversations will most be limited to those. Your suggested solutions to his problems will generally be of little use to him, and vice-versa. You'll both think that the other has odd goals. Therefore a deeper friendship is unlikely to emerge.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    I'm liking these. They're comprehensive, easy to read, and not convoluded or vague. Do an ENTj-ENTp one.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    I'm sort of intrigued by the popularity of this thread as it lacks any useful knowledge to others than ENTjs and is completely subjective, biased and about as kind as a polar bear with a jar of chili up its arse.

    So, why do you do it?
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Cause people are stupid and will believe anything! Very Happy

    I'll be sure to read them later. Nice seeing you again, smilingeyes.
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    I'm sort of intrigued by the popularity of this thread as it lacks any useful knowledge to others than ENTjs and is completely subjective, biased and about as kind as a polar bear with a jar of chili up its arse.

    So, why do you do it?


    Actually... I found your supervisor description interesting. My Business Law teacher is ENTJ, and that description sounded just like us. Sometimes to annoy him, I'll walk in and say, "Hey Tommy, how ya doin'?" instead of calling him "Mr. ____". He can get reactionary to things like that. Laughing "What, are we equals? No. I'm older than you, more experienced, better looking, taller, and I shave better than you. I'm a stud!" Laughing
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    I'm sort of intrigued by the popularity of this thread as it lacks any useful knowledge to others than ENTjs and is completely subjective, biased and about as kind as a polar bear with a jar of chili up its arse.


    I was wondering the same thing...
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    It appears that many interim pages are actually missing (4-10)
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Kim wrote:
    Nicky wrote:
    I didn't think it was *that* mean really. And the car and house examples sounded enough like my sister-in-law to make me laugh out loud. Not that all ESFps are like that, but it struck me as funny that those precise issues have come up with her.

    Don't hate the ENTjs for their lack of Introverted Feeling Smile


    I don't mind exaggeration at all. These things just don't apply at all. Perhaps it's a subtype thing. I think ESFps can differ greatly depending on subtype (my friends are all F-subtype). I will settle on that for now and read other descriptions for the sake of comparision when I have the time.

    And it wouldn't be a problem if some people weren't so eager to take these descriptions at face value. Wink

    I don't hate ENTjs! I never could. In fact, I love them for their Introverted Feeling ! Wink
    Maybe you should just stop talking. Rectify your grievances in the Ne type description thread, by writing your own colorfully biased description of an ESFp.

    I'm planning on writing one of those ENFp "unveiled" descriptions.. no holds barred. First item on the agenda, "jumping to conclusions."
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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    MySaviour wrote:
    Maybe you should just stop talking. Rectify your grievances in the Ne type description thread, by writing your own colorfully biased description of an ESFp.

    I'm planning on writing one of those ENFp "unveiled" descriptions.. no holds barred. First item on the agenda, "jumping to conclusions."


    Yeah, go ahead. It will tie in nicely with your general pointless and negative attitude. Nothing to be taken seriously because of all people, you are surely the one who cannot detach Socionics from his own personal experiences. Thanks for proving my point. If no reactions are welcome, perhaps there should be a disclaimer, no? Good thing that your name will be a disclaimer by itself should you indeed write an ENFp description. Now go and hate a bit more.

    Carry on people. I'm done. Wink
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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Kim wrote:
    MySaviour wrote:
    Maybe you should just stop talking. Rectify your grievances in the Ne type description thread, by writing your own colorfully biased description of an ESFp.

    I'm planning on writing one of those ENFp "unveiled" descriptions.. no holds barred. First item on the agenda, "jumping to conclusions."


    Yeah, go ahead. It will tie in nicely with your general pointless and negative attitude. Nothing to be taken seriously because of all people, you are surely the one who cannot detach Socionics from his own personal experiences. Thanks for proving my point. If no reactions are welcome, perhaps there should be a disclaimer, no? Good thing that your name will be a disclaimer by itself should you indeed write an ENFp description. Now go and hate a bit more.

    Carry on people. I'm done. Wink
    Just remember, Kim is the only person alive with an open mind. And she knows this.
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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    MySaviour wrote:
    Just remember, Kim is the only person alive with an open mind. And she knows this.


    Yay, I'm so super awesome! Very Happy Wink
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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Kim wrote:
    FDG wrote:

    Most ENTjs see most ESFps that way.



    That is very sad and makes me hate Socionics even more.


    It's not about socionics. I have noticed the pattern of behavior that here is classified as "ESFp" long before knowing ANYTHING about personality typing. I know smart, interesting, funny ESFp but you know what? Their pattern of behaviour still adhere to that description, generally! And in all honesty, I can't see anything really "bad" in that description from my point of view. I reiterate that there is an open admission of bias; of course if we were to be extremely objective, we would leave out half of the useful info.
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Kim wrote:
    I don't mind exaggeration at all. These things just don't apply at all. Perhaps it's a subtype thing. I think ESFps can differ greatly depending on subtype (my friends are all F-subtype). I will settle on that for now and read other descriptions for the sake of comparision when I have the time.


    That is correct, I had more the sensory subtype in mind when I wrote the description. Ethical subtypes are less impulsive.

    And do please read the other descriptions.

    Kim wrote:

    And it wouldn't be a problem if some people weren't so eager to take these descriptions at face value. Wink


    Well but I don't intend to control my descriptions with base on what "some people" might think.

    For instance, I intend to write INFj and INTp descriptions. I get along with both types, in fact, they are very well represented among my closest friends. But shall I write an INFj description just saying "they are such nice people, I love them"? No. I won't make ESTps out of INFjs - then the descriptions miss the point, even as caricatures - but I don't want them to be boring, either.
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Kim wrote:
    I should show this to my ESFp friends who have been a tremendous support for me and numerous other friends because they listened and cheered us up. Their friends are very important to them and they do not keep them around just because they need a circle of friends.


    FDG wrote:
    Most ENTjs see most ESFps that way. This thread is about description from ENTjs. I can't see your points, since there is a bias clause on the whole thread which has been made clear.


    Right, let me use this as an example of ENTj point of view, which is not "objective truth" but our perception, so there's little point in saying "that's not correct" especially as you'll be talking from an ENFp perception. So your ENFp perception of ESFps is not the "truth" either.

    I observe the differences most clearly when people move between cities and even countries, or even from one job to another.

    ENTjs - and most XNTxs, I think - do not have as first priority the formation of a social circle the first moment we arrive somewhere. We don't mind, or even prefer, being alone for a few weeks or even months as we get to know people with whom we do share common interests and genuinely enjoy spending time with. To spend Saturday nights alone is seen as much preferable to spending them with people we don't feel we can talk about anything interesting.

    If an ENTj spends a lot of his time socially with someone - whether personally, or on the phone, or whatever - you can be certain that s/he does have a special connection with that particular person.

    What I observe in ESFps - and some other types - is that one of their priorities when arriving at a new setting - not necessarily pursued consciously - is precisely to build up a social circle as quickly as possible, because they tend to feel unhappy if they're not interacting with other people.

    And the impression ENTjs have is that they're not particularly selective in that process, and that those people's immediate physical presence is of more importance than any deeper or more particular bond.

    That is not to mean that ESFps can't or won't develop friendships that survive the end of the physical presence - I myself have kept contact with the same ESFp female friend since high school, despite ages of geographical distance - but it does mean that they are more likely to make more connections that won't survive the immediate physical presence.

    I'm not saying that ESFps do that necessarily consciously, and I do believe that they mostly do care for those people as long as they are around. But I also have observed that for most of those acquaintances, it's a matter of "out of sight, out of mind". Please note that I said most, not all.

    And I don't think any the ESFp people I know would even argue against it - in fact, they would react with "but isn't everyone like that?". And in fact they have, each time I have raised this subject.
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Mariano Rajoy wrote:
    you should write about dualities bewteen the types. like how the esfp and the intp fit together. the needy esfp unceasingly chasing the scared intp. or the car salesman estp bringin home the $$$ for the infp, or whatever insight you may have.


    There is a very good article on how all the dualities fit together in socionics.org, including ESFp/INTp. I'll post the part sometime.
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Just some unasked for thoughts partially supporting the ENTj view of ESFp, from one ENFp's pov.

    Regarding ESFps and style....none of the ESFps I've known have really been too great at "style". Adultwise probably because they were each low income single mothers with more than one kid. Daughterwise, perhaps because she is homeschooled and so is not subjected to "the proper way to dress to be accepted" that comes from school peer pressure.

    Regarding ESFps and impulsiveness....most of the ESFps I've known are extremelly impulsive..in relationships, sex, and money. However, given an intense desire to obtain something, they have each been able to temporarily save money for it. But it's not a matter of...let me save money in case I come across something I really want. It's more like...I really want this particular thing, I can't afford it now, if I sell this, sell that, and save this income, then I can afford it. For example, my daughter wanted a Nintendo DS system. She worked to earn money for it, asked my bf to save it for her (I'm not to be trusted around money, myself), I agreed to put in $1 for $1 of what she saves up....and within one and half months, she had her share of the money for the DS system. She purchased the system, then immediately quit her babysitting job (leaving the mother in a lurch) and resumed life as normal.

    Regarding ESFps and friendships....*sighs*...every ESFp I've attempted to maintain some kind of friendship with...every single one...I feel as if I'm being used. Noone else is around to play with, so they'll turn to me. Noone else will talk with them about a particular problem anymore, so they'll turn to me. I've come to realize that it's not really something about me, though. Because I see how they've been around other people. They seem so manipulative, but I know they aren't trying to be manipulative. However, if a person won't ...bow down...to what the ESFp wants them to do, then the ESFp takes it as a personal affront. The ESFp will just turn their attentions to someone else who'll do as the ESFp wants them to do. I can't believe that all ESFps are like this, unfortunately, though, every ESFp I've interacted with has been like this.

    Viewing my daughter and her relationships, B is her best friend right now...C will be her best friend in an hour....and D will be her best friend tomorrow. It always changes according to
    1) who is available to play with her at each moment.
    2) who is willing to follow her ideas.
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    Kim



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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Must be a subtype thing then...or I have just met exceptionally awesome and wonderful ESFps...
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    Dioklecian



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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Where is that INTP description? Anyone care to take a crack at it?
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    Expat



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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Your first impression will simply be that he’s a nice guy. Not “nice” in a I-will-be-nice-because-I-want-something-from-you way, but in a genuine way. The impression of a nice, kind guy. And, in most cases – although supposedly they can also go to the other extreme – the impression will be correct. He’s your semi-dual, the INFj.

    In many respects this is the most pleasant type to have around you. His chief instinct is to keep an harmonious relationship with those around him, so unless you seriously piss him off, he’s not likely to be abrasive. It’s not necessary to treat him with kid gloves, though; a normal degree of civility, politeness and flexibility are adequate. Your usual way of dealing with people is normally ok. What he can’t stand is pushiness, especially of the kind displayed by people who see his gentleness as weakness. In most situations you will not run this risk, but excessive Te mode during an emergency could be very distressful for him. This is something to be avoided as it will be counter-productive.

    If exercising authoritarian pressure over others is not something with which you are totally comfortable – you much prefer using logical arguments – nor do you enjoy having it applied over you without the backing of such arguments – for him it is much worse. Simply to tell someone to fuck off or shut up, or to be told that by someone, is a source of great stress. If subjected to such pressure, they will not react to it proportionally, as it is increased, but they will tend to wait until it becomes unbearable and they may react in an uncharacteristic outburst.

    You are not likely to make him reach this point but it is something to be aware of, especially if he ever works for you. In that situation it’s best to deal with him openly and politely, avoiding the creation of a climate where he ever feels reluctant to approach you directly due to his dislike for open conflict. It’s best that he never fears talking to you.

    If he is above you, there is probably not much to worry about. His the type least likely to abuse his power and position, in fact, absolute monarchy would probably have survived if all absolute monarchs had been INFjs. The saying “power corrupts” does not apply to them. The only problem with having an INFj boss is that his dislike for open conflict may result in not fighting too hard for a budget or a raise for you when such matters are discussed with others. While they are the best people to be entrusted with power, they are not good in fighting to gain it or to keep it.

    For friendships, one of the most pleasant aspects of this type is that they’re usually open to “big-talk” discussions. A guy of this type is not likely to prefer watching sports on tv over having a discussion on Marxism or the usefulness of sending probes into deep space. Although often pedantic in their own concepts of right and wrong, they are not narrow-minded and are very willing to acknowledge that other points of view, even in ethical principles, are possible. They are not likely to make you feel self-conscious about the mess in your car or apartment, either, since such matters are of no importance to them. It is usually very easy to talk to them about anything, especially personal matters, and unless they have no time at all, they will always listen.

    However, it is also often the case - not always - that they will be a bit passive as friends, leaving most of the initiative of establishing and keeping contact to you.

    Tactics: in work situations, just remember that he may not be the best boss around when it's about fighting others to get things done.

    Watch out: before getting into a romantic relationship with someone of this type, just remember this single word: Gulenko.
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    PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 12:52 am Post subject: Expert Opinion Reply with quote
    Expat wrote:
    If he is above you, there is probably not much to worry about. His the type least likely to abuse his power and position, in fact, absolute monarchy would probably have survived if all absolute monarchs had been INFjs. The saying “power corrupts” does not apply to them. The only problem with having an INFj boss is that his dislike for open conflict may result in not fighting too hard for a budget or a raise for you when such matters are discussed with others. While they are the best people to be entrusted with power, they are not good in fighting to gain it or to keep it.



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    Diana


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    PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:09 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    A very kind description.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Diana wrote:
    A very kind description.


    Is that so? I did not set out to write a kind description of INFjs, that is based on my actual perception of them. I thought I might be focusing too much on the Extraverted Sensing thing.
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    PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Expat wrote:
    Diana wrote:
    A very kind description.


    Is that so? I did not set out to write a kind description of INFjs, that is based on my actual perception of them. I thought I might be focusing too much on the Extraverted Sensing thing.


    Well, there wasn't anything that I was offended at, just saw the weaknesses mentioned as true -- and the positives seemed almost over-the-top positive (like the monarchy statement, although I would like to believe that it's true Very Happy )
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    PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:44 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Diana wrote:

    Well, there wasn't anything that I was offended at, just saw the weaknesses mentioned as true -- and the positives seemed almost over-the-top positive (like the monarchy statement, although I would like to believe that it's true Very Happy )


    I think it is true if the INFj monarch's position is stable and unchallenged - I was actually thinking mainly of Marcus Aurelius. However, if the INFj monarchs have to face a challenge to their position, they will oscillate between indecision and excessive pressure -- that's what happened with Nicholas II for instance.
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    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: Abracadabra Reply with quote
    Your first impression of her will vary depending on the circumstances. If you meet her in a social event where you immediately have the chance to strike a conversation, you will be delighted at her broad range of interests in areas that also fascinate you, and at her logical take on things, with a sharp eye and wit for the ridicule which give her a wicked and dark sense of humor. On the other hand, if you meet her in a situation where you have to count on her taking the initiative to do anything or even to get back to you, you will be frustrated at her apparent indifference, at a behavior that puzzles you. She's your mirror, the INTp.

    It is not her values, priorities, interests or ethics that will make her intriguing or exasperating, as in the case of other people -- those will be fairly close to yours, or at least very easy to understand. That will be clear each time you talk about anything. What will be disconcerting is the pattern of her behavior, which may even make you think she's playing a game of some sort. Her most common apparent attitude is of supreme indifference, watching people and events from a position of critical superiority, regardless of her actual position in the local social hierarchy. With a sharp eye and tongue she notices and points out the follies of others, which she usually is wise to express only in proper situations, but also sometimes letting out a this-is-so-stupid laugh, or even making a devastating sarcastic comment before pausing to reflect on the wisdom of making it at that particular moment.

    What you should keep in mind is that this is a very logical person, but nevertheless also irrational. It is interesting to contrast her with her conflictor, the ESFj, whose day-to-day behavior is much easier to undertand even if their interests, priorities and analyses makes less sense to you. The INTp can view the world in a similar way as you but will react to it differently. While you usually feel the need to do something and try to use your sense of trends to decide when to do what, she will rather see so many trends that she often - or usually - decides that it is pointless to do much since she can already see the ultimate failure of any action. On the other hand, on occasion she sees clearly that she's the only one to notice the disaster coming from the lack of action and will react accordingly with decision.

    You will notice that she's not necessarily a very popular person; at the very least, she will be seen as someone interesting but a bit disconcerting. While you will be delighted at her caustic wit and irony, and appreciate her criticisms even as deciding which ones to take into account, many people will dislike her intensively for it. She is as uncomfortable and insecure about sensing and influencing people's moods and emotional impressions of her as you are regarding your appearance. That results into an unawareness of "proper" emotional behavior in social or work environments which leads to occasional awkward behavior. It also leads to an extreme insecurity as to how others relate to her emotionally, and she dislikes extravagant displays of emotion since she never knows how to react to them or what exactly they mean. As a woman, it may also mean that, despite all her intuition and critical insight, she may fall for clever emotional manipulators and charmers, since she unconsciously expects the flamboyant but sincere emotional expression of her dual ESFp that leaves her in no doubt - and often not differentiate well between the tactical charm and the sincere emotion. Since you don't regard yourself as that good in that area either, you will be amazed at how she can make mistakes that are obvious to you there. Yet you should know that her real drive is far more for deep feelings than for comfortable, conventional expression of emotions.

    In a romantic relationship, after the deep emotional bonds that you both look for are established - which will likely take some time, to say the last - they are likely to remain solid. The main problems for you will be to live with her IP behavior and to force yourself to be a little like an ESFp aggressor (since she won't be likely to take the role of aggressor at all - forget about that).

    If you meet her in work situations, she's great to have working for you since she'll be as skeptical of bureaucratic procedure getting in the way of efficiency and very critical of the important features of her own work. The approach is to establish clear deadlines - since her own perception of time does not make her worry in the least about posponing things to do - and make clear that her work is already good enough when it is.

    As a boss, you will have a sarcastic, I-hate-sticking-to-the-book-and-bullshit kind of person who will know when a project is even worth bothering to start working on or not before it dies anyway, but who'll be fair and kind when it really counts. Your only worry is that her way doesn't get her on the wrong side of political disputes, dragging you down with her.
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    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    My plumbing teacher was an ISTp. He was always very nice to me, like I was the challenging student that he was trying to reach. When he asked the class if he was going to fast, if we had any questions, if it was time for a break, if we should end class for the day, etc, he'd always look right at me. He was overly friendly like he didn't know how else to act with me. Right after I dropped the class he told the class that I was doing a really good job. Shocked Pretty amazing since I didn't actually do anything besides show up and I couldn't make myself focus on codes such as the size and pitch and length of drain pipes if my life depended on it, and I went into class hoping that the ESTj wouldn't try to sit next to me again because I wouldn't be able to keep myself from laughing at his jokes, and I felt like a bitch. ESTjs have a sense of humor very similar to my "mean" sense of humor.
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    Phaedrus



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    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Very good, Expat! An insightful and accurate description of the INTp type. I can find nothing to complain about. (And, coming from an INTp, you know what that means, don't you?)
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    PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Very Happy Thank you!
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Yes, I must say that is a very good description. It matches exactly my experiences with a female INTp I know.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    The principles of this INTp description match Erkki (in my opinion), but the feeling is too feminine. I think male-INTps have a slightly stronger no-bullshit, no-bureaucracy attitude. Also less emotions. When he was a teacher for a year, the general attitude was "Is he even human?!". When one of the students later heard that he has a GF, the comment was something like "That has to be one tough girl if she can handle him!".

    What he hates the most - stupid people. Among them, people who can quote facts and book-knowledge, but can't make any decisions or conclusions.
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    he died with a felafel



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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Smilingeyes wrote:
    This person is one of the most difficult one's to handle correctly. He's your illusionary partner, the ISTj.

    When you encounter him, the important thing is who is in control. There are no clear rules for this that you might understand, but you will see it from his behaviour. If he's confident, proactive and feels in charge he will operate with you in a manner he feels is correct, standard and efficient. If what you receive from him in this manner is what you wanted or close enough, you should be happy and content. You can survive and even flourish in these circumstances even if this guy is your boss. If the results are not satisfactory, you should not complain about the person responsible but of the results themselves. It is not "correct" in his mind to listen to complaints from people of lower rank but on the other hand it is not "correct" to let yourself make mistakes.

    If you are a colleague and technically on the same level as he is, you are likely considered of lower rank, though proven capability, superior knowledge or longer work experience might make him consider you a superior.

    The situation is different if you find the ISTj as your employee or meet him on what he feels unfamiliar ground. This kind of strange situation might make him panic in a very slight way. He will act hurried and his actions will lack meaning. This is the only situation ever in which you will find him receptive to you. Restore his faith. Tell him that everything will be fine, then take charge actively. He will feel very positive about you. If this small panic is the kind of reaction the ISTj tends to have to negative situations, you should consider yourself very lucky. You will find his presence very useful.

    The other kind of reaction that the ISTj might have to an unfamiliar situation is brooding. He might retreat further into his mind, become inactive or start to behave in a ritualistic manner. Typically he might make absurd, passionate complaints and / or try to use the rules he's accustomed to in a situation in which they do not fit. He will try to motivate people around him but do it in a negative way. If this is the kind of behaviour you run into, there's not much you can do. You can passively watch and pity or you can pull rank and use whatever forceful methods you have available to get rid of him.

    On a social level there is some disagreement on the correct procedure. Some believe that the ISTj is most wonderful social company for his illusionary partner. It's certainly something you can try out.

    The reason why acts as he does is that he feels he is compelled to control himself and he feels happiness at his ability to do so. This is his greatest motivation and something for you to remember if not understand.

    Your agenda: Take the money and run. You will never ever understand this person, don't even try to.

    Tactical tips: Never elevate him to a very high position, it's better to reward him with concrete one-shot bonuses.
    Keep him busy and if you can manage scared, that's good too.

    Mental note: Never act in anger in your contacts with him. It's only business.

    Watch out: This person's presence will make you passive and complacent. Even if you find the man pleasant, you should stay separate from him when in work environment. Otherwise it will hurt your actions.
    You might at times completely forget his presence or the amount of power he wields over his environment. Watch your step.


    well, hello there! were you the one watching me as i was dealing (or at least trying to) with the frustrating dude above?
    cheers
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    he died with a felafel



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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Abracadabra Reply with quote
    Expat wrote:
    Your only worry is that her way doesn't get her on the wrong side of political disputes, dragging you down with her.


    my main concern about dioklecian - he has a special talent for getting on the wrong sides

    sigh, dio, where are you?? Sad

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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Kristiina wrote:
    The principles of this INTp description match Erkki (in my opinion), but the feeling is too feminine. I think male-INTps have a slightly stronger no-bullshit, no-bureaucracy attitude. Also less emotions. When he was a teacher for a year, the general attitude was "Is he even human?!". When one of the students later heard that he has a GF, the comment was something like "That has to be one tough girl if she can handle him!".


    probably more noticeable in a male. this description was based on the INTp women that expat has associated with. the thing that generally stands out about Extraverted Thinking ego block women in general is that Extraverted Feeling role/polr.

    which is something i agree with on the "ENTj women" description that you posted, that they're generally not entirely sure how members of the opposite sex feel about them.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    I did base that description on interactions with two RL INTp females, using socionics to explain their behavior and thinking. I do have a male INTp friend but I wouldn't know how to make it very interesting. He's also passive regarding keeping in touch. He married an ISFj, by the way.

    We might wish otherwise but gender roles do have a very significant impact. Another good example is ESFj. The most recognizable image of ESFjs is the female one. ESFj women feel "encouraged" to use their Extraverted Feeling in that typical expressive way. ESFj men are more difficult to recognize, their Extraverted Feeling tells them to act in a more "manly" way, so some of them may even be mistaken for introverts. Their ESFj-ness becomes more visible when they are really relaxed in social situations, that's my observation.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Expat, I love your INTp description.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    INTp description, shit. Sad

    (Not that it's shit. It's just that I feel shitty that it fits.)
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Catholic Schoolboy wrote:

    (Not that it's shit. It's just that I feel shitty that it fits.)


    Aaww.

    You know, Gammas love INTps.
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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Nobody seems to want to tackle INFp in this thread (unless I've missed it somewhere). So here's my version, written based on the hypothesis that I'm INTp, in which case this is somewhat from a Extraverted Thinking perspective, but also from an Introverted Intution one.

    INFP

    You meet someone you think is just like you, but who seems unwilling to recognize that fact. This is INFp, your comparative relation. Like you, she lives in a world of her own creation and is passionately involved in various interests. But unlike you, she doesn't doesn't believe that her world is subject to logical analysis, and she's suspicious of anyone who tries to address her in too familiar a manner, because she believes her world is too unique for anyone else to truly understand.

    On the other hand, she may at times be interested in your ideas. If so, you'll likely find her adulation gratifying. If she's an ethical subtype, you might believe that she's an extravert. You may find her emotionality inspiring, especially since her praise seems to come from an ability to understand your ideas in a deeper way than anyone else can. Her approval can seem especially rewarding, since she's so confident in dealing with the social side of things and expressing herself emotionally.

    However, you must be careful of her emotions, because while one day she may act as if you're the greatest person she's ever met, the next day she'll meet you with complete indifference or worse. If you're not careful, you may become too dependent on her ever-changing emotions, and be led on an emotional roller coaster.

    If you do manage to befriend her, your friendship will likely go through stages, as you learn the unique way in which she likes people to deal with her. Your best chance at befriending this person is if you both share a very deep interest in the same thing.

    Friendships with this person can be very rewarding, as you're liable to feel inspired by this person's idealism and entertained by her emotionality.

    If, on the other hand, you have romantic intentions, be very careful, because despite all your similarities, she's likely to have the image in her mind of someone very different from how you are or would ever want to be.

    In work situations, you may find her to be someone both inspiring and willing to cut you some slack when you need it. However, some of her ideas will likely seem nonsensical, and you'll have to be very diplomatic when trying to change course toward a more logical path. She may become attached to her ideas, so you'll have to compromise somewhat over particulars and help her to feel some degree of ownership over the final result.

    Tips: Be very cautious about getting too attached to this person's emotions. If you want to be friends with this person, go gradually and give her a lot of space. Don't give too many suggestions; it's better to empathize than to give concrete advice. If you need to give advice, do so indirectly, by describing a similar situation that happened to you and critiquing your own actions in that past situation...rather than her actions in the current one.

    Watch out for: Even though this person is intellectual, she can become bored very easily if the things you're talking about seem unrelated to her personal interests. Talking to her can be very deceptive, because she appears to give you the green light to talk about anything; this may stimulate you to conversation, and then she tunes out for no apparent reason. Therefore, you should always relate your topic back to something people-oriented and constantly check that she's still interested in what you're talking about.
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    PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:51 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    We should start an Ni thread for INTps.

    By the way, Expat, I just noticed your INTp description today. Top notch, really. And it's comforting for me to know that how I imagine others to see me is actually how they see me.
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    PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    @Cone: thank you, I'm very pleased that all INTps identified with it, because it confirms that I do understand this type very well. I based it on my experiences with real INTps, using other profiles simply to explain their behavior; but the description itself - not the explanation - is all based on observation. It's good to know that I typed them correctly and that I do understand INTps.

    @Jonathan: I think it's a perceptive description of an INFp from a logical IP point of view. I have actually changed my mind (behaving a bit IP myself) and I'm now ready to write an INFp description from the point of view of their supervisors. It will be a bit brutal though.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:42 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Quote:
    @Jonathan: I think it's a perceptive description of an INFp from a logical IP point of view. I have actually changed my mind (behaving a bit IP myself) and I'm now ready to write an INFp description from the point of view of their supervisors. It will be a bit brutal though.


    Can't wait to see your point of view. Smile
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    mek



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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    The INTP description is dead on.

    Yes...I am new Smile
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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    Seeing as the last post was still about Expat's INTp description...

    It's good. Smile

    (I think I already told you that on the chat, but just in case I didn't).
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    Joy



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    PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:27 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    sorry... it's not in the first person, but I've got one for ISFj from an ENTj's point of view

    Quote:
    ENTjs have huge visions of future accomplishments, but could use a little help in staying on top of day to day tasks like balancing the checkbook (yes, they're quite capable... that doesn't mean they're going to do it regularly) and keeping up with chores and whatnot. ISFjs are good at prioritizing and keeping track of any necessary tasks. The ISFj may be rather pessimistic at times, but it's necessary in order to balance out the ENTjs extreme optimism. ISFjs think of things that the ENTj may otherwise overlook, and remind him of those things. ISFjs have a "get 'er done" attitude.

    She voices her skepticisms about projects or people that the ENTj is involved with. It can be easy for the ENTj to find himself in a situation where he's being taken advantage of (people take advantage of the Fe role I think), but the ISFj will put her foot down. "No, that's ridiculous. He can't expect that of you. Tell him you're not going to do it." ISFjs are also good at putting their foot down when it comes to the ENTj getting rest when he's ill.

    Although the ENTj may like to be a moral person, sometimes he can get himself into situations where he's stuck between a rock and a hard place, morally speaking. He can rest assured that the ISFj will foresee any moral concerns and help prevent him from getting into those sticky situations to begin with. It gives the ENTj a feeling of security as he moves forward towards his goals. I think a lot of ENTjs also tend to feel a little insecure about whether or not they're doing everything they should be doing for their children. They might, for example, go on a lot of business trips or work hours that are not conducive to family life, and then they try to make up for it by trying to be affectionate and warm when they are with their kids (Fe role). They may also end up giving their kids too much attention due to this (or not enough attention). ISFjs are good at understanding where family activities and concerns should be on the priority scale, and because he can follow her lead with this, the ENTj feels a security that his family is healthy and well and doesn't need to worry that he's not placing the proper amount of importance on his family and balancing his business life with his home life.

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    PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
    She’s charming, with a dreamy quality about her; if she’s also physically attractive, the combined effect can be irresistible. She may well take the initiative to talk to you and will choose an interesting topic. She may also give the impression of needing your help or at least your advice. Be aware that there is very little you can do to help or give her advice about. Your usual ways of doing that would not be welcome or seen as helfpul. She’s your supervisee, the INFp.

    In terms of her behavior, she’s much easier to understand and deal with than the INTp or the ISFp. She lacks the sometimes intimidating, almost “physical” unpredictability of the latter and the passivity and unreciprocity of the former: unlike the INTp, she doesn’t lack confidence in how to relate to others emotionally. In fact, interactions with her will be mostly pleasant for you. You will soon notice that she has a lot of interesting ideas and likes discussing them: whether on philosophy, politics, religion and the like. She also has a curiosity and an apparent joy for life that you find appealing.

    Sooner or later – that will depend on how she sees you – you will find out that she has objectives and dreams; she will discuss them with you as she trusts you more, but probably she will never reveal them to you in their entirety. Those objectives and dreams operate at many levels: from I-am-going-to-save-mankind-from-itself to I-will-travel-around-the-world to I-will-marry-that-guy. The problem starts when, from your point of view, those dreams and plans are not very realistic – either because it’s too big, or because there won’t be the money, or you can see that that guy does not really see her as marriage material.

    And the problem starts precisely here: you will soon find out that, unless specificially asked for, comments on the practical feasibility of her goals and dreams are precisely what she dislikes. What she wants is not someone telling her that they are very probably not going to be fulfilled, but someone who shares them or who is at least willing to help her achieve them, and who shows determination and perseverance in that. While you will be puzzled at what you see as her lack of realism, she will be disappointed at what she sees as your narrow-mindedness, pessimism and even weakness. The latter is something she is bound to throw at you at some point: because your instinct is to try to accommodate her wishes on a daily basis, she will be frustrated and accuse you of lacking assertiveness or knowing what you want. In romantic situations, she will be more able than the INTp to understand what is going on in your head and not expect you to take the initiative for every single thing; but that doesn’t meant that she won’t be disappointed.

    You will see how many of her plans do go unfulfilled precisely as you had foreseen, and also notice that even in romantic relationships, while she perfectly notices when someone is interested in her, she has more difficulty evaluating the depths of that interest; so, in your opinion, she will often be involved in bad relationships whose end, again, you can foresee. On the other hand, you will be astonished at her resilience, at her ability to bounce back and get again on the track towards pursuing her dreams, and at her uncanny ability to find people to help her on that, at least part of the way. You will also notice that the latter stems from the same charm that captured you when you met – an ability that fascinates, puzzles, and at some level even repels you.

    In the longer term, there isn’t much you can do. The best is to offer your friendship, and advice whenever she specifically asks for it, but not try to intervene too much in how she pursues her life goals. She operates at a very different level from yours.

    At work – it’s better to avoid someone like her. As your boss, she will take decisions whose feasibility you strongly disagree with, and yet she will not welcome your comments on that. She is not likely to realize that that was the problem, either. If you have her working for you, you will feel tempted to criticise, even control her actions in way that she will find extremely stressful. In work situations, it’s best to go separate ways as soon as possible.
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    PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    At last, the INFp post we've all been waiting for. Yes, this sounds like an INFp.

    There are a few differences between this and INFps I've known, though. That may have to do just with individual differences between people.

    In my experience, INFps' problem with Extraverted Thinking isn't that they don't care about or have an awareness regarding feasability. In fact, most INFps I've met seem to have a certain (albeit hidden) practical side to them that I think comes from their dual ST nature. I think there are things that an NT would consider tackling that an INFp would think would be going too far.

    It's more that direct problem-solving advice sounds cold and pushy to them, as well as boring, dry, and something they just don't like. However, if you bend over backwards to make it not seem as if you're trying to solve their problem directly, they'll hear your advice and may even take it.

    For example, you might say something like "That reminds me of a situation I was in. I was doing [blah blah], and I did [blah blah], but [blah blah] happened, and so later I wish that I had done [blah blah]." That way of disguising the advice usually works, especially when done as an interactive conversation where you're very sensitive to how the other person is reacting.
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    PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    Jonathan wrote:

    In my experience, INFps' problem with Extraverted Thinking isn't that they don't care about or have an awareness regarding feasability. In fact, most INFps I've met seem to have a certain (albeit hidden) practical side to them that I think comes from their dual ST nature. I think there are things that an NT would consider tackling that an INFp would think would be going too far.

    It's more that direct problem-solving advice sounds cold and pushy to them, as well as boring, dry, and something they just don't like. However, if you bend over backwards to make it not seem as if you're trying to solve their problem directly, they'll hear your advice and may even take it.


    I think this may apply to all types with regard to PoLR issues generally.

    IMO and IME INFps do have a very practical side to them - the problem comes when practicality clashes with the goals and dreams they really feel strongly about.

    As with the INTp profile, this one was largely "inspired" by someone I am familiar with and "explained" by my theoretical understanding of INFps.
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    PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Reply with quote
    This INFp description brings to an end this series of type profiles from ENTj point of view brilliantly started by Smilingeyes.

    My views on some of the types have changed somewhat, so I may write a new version of some profiles I'm not too happy about, especially the ENFp.

    The purpose of those descriptions, as I understand it, is to present a blunt, even mean, slightly satyrical at times but always recognizable portrait of how ENTjs perceive other types. They are not meant to be the "objective truth" about them.

    Joy has written an ISFj profile that is more "conventional" and not in the style of the others. That will have to do as far as I am concerned since I have no intention at all of ever writing an ISFj profile.

    I may write an ENTj profile though.
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    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
    smilex, should i expect any revisions of your Te descriptions now that you're an ESTJ? you know which ones, the infj, the enfj, the istp &Co

    ?
    No, you shouldn't.



    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .


    The thread was originally about how an ENTj should manage relations with particular types. An ESTj isn't supposed to manage relations. Relations manage the ESTj.

    Here's type descriptions from ESTj pov.

    If they can stand you, they're probably INFjs. Cool. But they're still not going to talk to you about it so you won't be able to tell them from everyone else. And everyone else hates you. Spend more time at work. Get everything down on paper. Tape your phone calls. Don't answer the doorbell. Be polite, they might be armed.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel

    is that the perspective of a "healthy" estj though? "Everyone else hates you"
    Ah, you melt my cold exterior with your kind words.

    And yes, it's accepted by at least some if potentially not all that ESTjs have a habit of acquiring enemies. And since the ESTj pov is that they are forced to handle everything, there's not really much room there for allies anyway. So its generally a reasonable expectation that people will appreciate an ESTjs results but be turned away by the person. As for what's healthy, I don't think there's such a thing as a healthy ESTj anyway, I think the whole concept of being one, well, sucks, but that's just my opinion.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
    awww...are you a sad estj



    chook-chook..
    knock-knock..
    You serious? You want me to play knock knock jokes with you? As if the very fate of the world wasn't hanging on what I was doing you want me to stop and make jokes with you?

    *shrug*

    Ok.

    Who's there?

    (I really hope this joke isn't so bad that it makes me claw my eyes out and bleed all over the keyboard because then I'd probably have to buy a new one.)
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    genius

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    LOL he thinks because I have Fi that I can automatically manage an ESTj, that's ridiculous; I can't control or manage anyone in the least sense of the word. I can help them if they want that, it's voluntary, not forced.

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    You can do it, Maritsa. smilingeyes has spoken. You just gotta believe. Just imagine being the greatest helper in the existence of the human race; the LSEs will worship you with praise and the deltas will enter a Golden Age and your legacy will inspire ages to come.

    Go forth and acquire your destiny!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    smilex, should i expect any revisions of your Te descriptions now that you're an ESTJ? you know which ones, the infj, the enfj, the istp &Co

    ?
    Wonder if any one actually read that. I didn't. Formatting is evil, it seems.

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    • I dont get it

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    LOL he thinks because I have Fi that I can automatically manage an ESTj, that's ridiculous; I can't control or manage anyone in the least sense of the word. I can help them if they want that, it's voluntary, not forced.

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    did anybody actually read all that?

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    yes

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    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by negern View Post
    • I dont get it
    you don't get what?

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    i dont get it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    yes
    Tell us the secrets of this ancient text. Bath us in the illuminating light of smilingeyes eminence. Please help set our flock onto the proper path, oh great disciple of our beloved smilingeyes, lord and savior, amen.

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    i don't like your, IMO derisive, tone

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    (trevor doesn't get it either)

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    You'd think the OP could use some of that spare Te to tidy up his damned posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    i don't like your, IMO derisive, tone
    The IMO was well-placed, touche. That's a good trump card for projections; I'll have to use that sometime. Until we meet again then, chess master Trevor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    The IMO was well-placed, touche. That's a good trump card for projections; I'll have to use that sometime. Until we meet again then, chess master Trevor.
    Remember, always seal a difference of viewpoint with a resounding IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    You'd think the OP could use some of that spare Te to tidy up his damned posts.
    Um, he doesn't have it.

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    Defend your dual, Maritsa. Let it be known that no man shall sully Maritsa's dual!!!

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    For those who are wondering at the "formatting," IIRC this was rescued material from when sections of the forum were vandalized and deleted. Copy / pasted from backups and/or search engine caches. There are other similar posts by others around the same time, with varying degrees of cleanup.

    If you don't like it, clean it up for us and repost it neatly. Or just don't read it. If you want it in its original "pretty" form, talk to the people who thought it was funny to go on a deleting spree... I, for one, am content that it got preserved at all. At least the data exists; it can get reformatted at a later convenience or whenever someone gets annoyed enough at the appearance.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    For those who are wondering at the "formatting," IIRC this was rescued material from when sections of the forum were vandalized and deleted. Copy / pasted from backups and/or search engine caches. There are other similar posts by others around the same time, with varying degrees of cleanup.

    If you don't like it, clean it up for us and repost it neatly. Or just don't read it. If you want it in its original "pretty" form, talk to the people who thought it was funny to go on a deleting spree... I, for one, am content that it got preserved at all. At least the data exists; it can get reformatted at a later convenience or whenever someone gets annoyed enough at the appearance.
    If it really so important to you I think you should clean it up, otherwise stop whinging when people who don't have any vested interest rightly complain about its format and telling them to do it .

    Seems to me whoever cared enough to pull it from a cache might have considered making it readable, either way I tell you I haven't seen it in its original format so there's no way I know what it's supposed to look like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    If it really so important to you I think you should clean it up, otherwise stop whinging when people who don't have any vested interest rightly complain about its format and telling them to do it .

    Seems to me whoever cared enough to pull it from a cache might have considered making it readable, either way I tell you I haven't seen it in its original format so there's no way I know what it's supposed to look like.
    "(whinge) A cry; A complaint; To complain, especially in an annoying or persistent manner."
    The feeling is mutual, I guess.

    Don't tell me you never did something sloppily because something else was going on that was more important.

    Anyway, I'm more defending a friend than a format. If you're opposed to that, well, ok. We each have our say.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    "(whinge) A cry; A complaint; To complain, especially in an annoying or persistent manner."
    The feeling is mutual, I guess.

    Don't tell me you never did something sloppily because something else was going on that was more important.

    Anyway, I'm more defending a friend than a format. If you're opposed to that, well, ok. We each have our say.
    Yeah there sure is a lot of hatred in your posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    Yeah there sure is a lot of hatred in your posts.
    Interesting. I don't hate anyone here. If you like we can take this to PM. I'm curious where you're seeing hatred.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Interesting. I don't hate anyone here. If you like we can take this to PM. I'm curious where you're seeing hatred.
    I'm not really interested in taking it to PM but i'm also not really interested in discussing it here either.

    Suffice it to say IMO at least, if you really want to help your friend then you could consider burying the hatchet, talking about people who deleted posts years ago doesn't help, what's done is done and only serves to create divisions, which has been the problem all along, Expat hating on Smilingeyes etc. Which I think has been a cause of distress to your friend has it not?

    I think you are a Christian, I quite like early Christians approach, like Origens approach to Universal Reconciliation, basically we'll all get on in the end, and punishment - division - Hell is finite in Gods universe. Seems to tie in with compassion to me.

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    Didn't know it was deleted before - don't really pay attention to drama between members past and present. Simply put it doesn't interest me in the slightest as long I'm not the target of it.

    The most stable aspect of a person's type is the temperament.
    Within that same temperament, the type as defined by Model A can and does change on a situational basis, over the short-term or long-term.
    Intertype relations as in Model A are determined by the a person's present longer-term situational type.
    The most characteristic and observable traits of a type are those related to Reinin dichotomies and combinations thereof, including the Gulenko romance styles.
    The functional preference as defined by Model A is intrinsically related to the precise combination of those traits at a certain point along the temperament.
    The plus and minus functional traits are actually due to that precise point in the temperament, the functions being called "abstract" or "concrete".
    This certain point is as likely to be a type as a subtype, as these lie along a continuum within a temperament.
    Model A actually describes merely a "still picture" of a person's overall type variations; usually the person's "default mode" in a longer-term situational perspective, which nonetheless is subject to change as well.
    Above pulled from wikisocion.

    If temperament is most stable and fluctuations are allowed in and between types of the same temperament, and at the same time functional preferences are owing their intrinsic spin due to "Reinin dichotomies and combinations thereof, including the Gulenko romance styles", then the notion of stability does not really exist nor can be referred to for this functional preference changed places within Model A already.

    Stability and change doesn't go hand in hand. Correct me if I'm wrong though. This can be just a linguistic problem/misunderstanding. Former implies the resistance to change whilst he latter transformation. So even though one remains the same, as in the same temperament, one is a complete new being(?) and possesses new characteristics depending on the short-term or long-term [sic] life span/life expectancy. I'm no genius, but quantitative changes in the form of reduction of wavelength produce a qualitative change in colour - one can of course argue it is subjective, the perception of colour, but problem is X-Rays prove otherwise, heh. And one can't really argue with facts, I mean feel free to, no biggie...

    And seeing smilingeyes is using what to me seems as physics/chemistry jargon, especially Rheology- correct me if I'm wrong again -, I have a bit of hard nut to crack here for I am at loss to how liquids are contrasted with personality. How it is done? I'm still a bit perplexed when it comes to that, really.

    Even Heraclitus' Panta Rhei, is at odds with this Model for it [the Model] retains a few constants like mainstream physics, in this case, a stable temperament. So it is constant at one point, the theory, like mainstream physics and changing at the other, like the notions put forth by Rheologists.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Please let me explain to you guys what Fi does with the world of human relationships;

    Fi navigates relationships...like how a sailor navigates the oceans. We don't create the ocean, or relationships, they exist; we can come in contact with people and observe relationships and their bonds and they attract us or we attract them, but we don't destroy relationships as they exist. I'm tired of people assuming that just because I'm INFj that I'm going to tell them what to do about their relationships, that is Fi negative and especially SEE, NOT INFj.

    I love people, especially new people and I am easily excited by the possibility of these relationships, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna walk in and rearrange their furniture of relations; that's just wrong in all kinds of ways.

    Ok, got that?

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    he died with a felafel
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    Regarding formatting issues: the forum was hacked at some time in the past, like Minde mentioned. The admin of the time did their own rescuing of some of the materials and the OP got this version from google. It's not a good formatting, but it's a rescued version. It is unfortunate that Jim was not around at the time to format it, and add it to the list of his many other contributions to the forum and socionics theory at large. sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Wonder if any one actually read that. I didn't. Formatting is evil, it seems.
    I read it at the time he wrote it, can't remember details now. I take the part that makes sense to me from experience and observation, the rest i don't know, and I don't worry about whether type/temperament changes or not: if it does it does and if it doesn't then ok. Not sure what else I could add to this.
    Last edited by felafel; 04-10-2013 at 05:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    It is unfortunate that Jim was not around at the time to format it, and add it to the list of his many other contributions to the forum and socionics theory at large. sucks.
    Yeah Jim, be more like me.

    if it does it does and if it doesn't then ok. Not sure what else I could add to this.
    Well, if it does one can safely throw Socionics out of the window so it brakes on the rocky shore whilst you stare deep in the coming waves. That one mistyped/were mistyped themselves would be more plausible - in that case there can be talk about "change" through observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Ok, got that?
    No.

    Please explain clearly, technically, concisely and scientifically what Fi is.

    Then explain why you don't open an Fi descriptions thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    No.

    Please explain clearly, technically, concisely and scientifically what Fi is.

    Then explain why you don't open an Fi descriptions thread.
    LOL

    No.

    ah Fi description threads have been opened up the wasooo.

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