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Thread: Duality descriptions by Aushra: ENTj-ISFj and ESTj-INFj

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    Default Duality descriptions by Aushra: ENTj-ISFj and ESTj-INFj

    I couldn't find the original thread with Google, but I had saved the text.


    Logical extraverts and ethical introverts

    First pair: Logical-sensory extrovert (ESTj), ethical-intuitive introvert (INFj)
    Second pair: Logical-intuitive extrovert (ENTj), ethical-sensory introvert (ISFj)

    The most basic skill that the logical-sensory extrovert has - and values - is logic, the skill to be reasonable and to act logically. That is the only quality that makes them completely confident and content. Itís not important how clever they are, but if others doubt their logic, this does not confuse them. Because of developed sensing, they are extremely sensitive to the aesthetics of their immediate surroundings. It is interesting that their most active attention is not focused on the intellect of others [ - - ] but on othersí skill to act rationally and their appearance. It is not so important how clever their partners are; their elegance and physical shape is more important, since these depend only on their own efforts. Excessive weight is untydines [ -- ]. This is generally one of the most indecent phenomena. The ESTjs accurately and neatly differentiate beaufiful and plain things, but for their rational mind there is nothing that is beautiful and inconvenient, or useless, at the same time. They dress well and elegantly [ - - ]. They wear the same clothing for long, constantly astonishing others with their freshness, as if the factor of time did not exist. The ESTjs themselves will not put on inconvenient foot wear, since they live for themselves and not for their environment. But all others must dress only very beautifully for the ESTjsí aesthetical satisfaction.

    Their attraction to the opposite sex (?) is completely conscious and they donít fear it. They pity those who try to hide it. They have more difficulty with feelings. The ESTjs feel the need for love, they want to be loved and be needed, but they donít know how to write a poem out of their love. An ESTj man tries to attract the girl with kindness, services, gifts, but not with beautiful words about feelings. This torments him, it seems difficult, meaningless. Feelings are their passive and therefore vulnerable side. They cannot quickly fall in love, they fear to be deceived, to mistake their wishes for reality. If love contradicts logic, they reject it. This is one of those types that are considered courageous.

    In people with the developed sensations the intuition is not developed; therefore they exceptionally take chancs, they want complete clarity and confidence. They cannot love, if they think that their feelings are unreasonable. They cannot love someone, about whom they have doubts, whom they donít trust, which causes problems. They canít love even those who are too independent and so have no need constant aid and guardianship. [ -- ] In the sphere of feelings they donít feel up to taking the risk: they can desire those who donít desire them in return, but they canít love those that donít reciprocate their love. They need a partner with deep introverted feeling, and barely noticed balanced emotions on the surface, that is, someone, whose essential internal peace (?) is the skill measure the feeling of others with their own feelings. To logical extroverts, it is exceptionally important the positive and very tactful emotional estimation of all their behavior, concerns, and efforts. For them, life is clear, light, and intelligible, when they donít spoil the mood of their partners, when they make their partners happy.

    The princess of the male ESTjís dream does not show initiative herself, she waits, until he notices her. But when he begins to pay attention to her, he does it very tactfully and is not negative even when joking. ESTjs donít understand sarcastic (?) jokes, they perceive them as negative evaluations of their own personality and that turns them away. They are not tempted nor attracted by mincing manners.

    ESTjs feel responsibility for their partner. They are more aggressive when protecting their partnerís interests from real and imaginary enemies than they are when protecting their own. They worry about their partner, give them instructions, correct and regulate their activities. They do with pleasure all that the partner canít do Ė if the partner really cannot, instead of not being willing to do it. More precisely, they try to overcome difficulties that prevent the partner from taking effective action. They really donít like it, if the partner falls under the influence, and listen to the advice, of others.

    Since this type has the developed and even nagging aesthetic taste (in the behavior, dictated by the second function rather than the first, people are always more nagging), they are inclined to dictate to their partners their own concept of beauty. They are always confident that they know what is beautiful and what isnít [ - -], and they donít regard it as too important whether or not it pleases other people or if itís fashionable. They find it much more difficult to live with someone who has their own taste than with someone who needs them to solve all aesthetical problems, who yields in this field, who listens to their indications.

    Those are the most appropriate feelings of the ethical-intuitive introvert. They are the carriers of the quiet, internal sea for feelings, imperceptible to others. The peace of their feelings is fine and rich, self-sufficient, they do not need verbal proofs of love. Without words they see who loves whom and to what extent, who is necessary to whom, and who is not. This type has the valuable skill to adapt to the emotions of another person, to be anxious with another person, to remove emotional stress, to calm them. This is constant when they are in love in the depth of the soul [ -- ] although the impression most frequently produced is of being cold, locked in themselves, or even insensitive. Their love is [ - - ] intuitive, platonical, incorporeal.

    Just as it is necessary for logical extroverts to love someone, but they donít know how to show it, the ethical-intuitive introverts need someone with that inclination. [ - - ] Courage doesnít come soon, it comes with the faith in the beloved and the confidence that their feelings will not seem ridiculous, that they will not be humiliated [ -- ].

    The ethical introverts search for pleasant emotions. These are assured by the partnerís rationality, logic, skill to protect [ -- ]. No other proofs of love and conversations about love are necessary. What is necessary is that the partner will provide these pleasant emotions by his behavior: not being late to appointments, carrying out their promises, being polite, thoughtful. The expectation that is never deceived, but during which it is possible to dream as much as desired, is one of the greatest pleasures that the ethical-introverts get from the logical extroverts.

    This girl (or man) is happy to live according to the aesthetic tastes and desires of someome else, not so much because she doesnít have her own, but because she desires the complete harmony of interrelations, complete confluence of will [ - - ] The girl wants what pleases him and to adapt to it. But unfortunate is the man who is not a logical extrovert and to whom she canít adapt, that is, he cannot satisfy her basic requirement: to always and everywhere have his opinion. Unfortunate is the man, who, although very clever, is inclined to present his opinions as reflections, not as short mandatory wordings. The ethical-intuitive introvert is constantly dissatisfied and unahappy next to those.

    It is possible to tell this girl that her nature is not sufficiently strong, that each intelligent person must have an opinion and taste. But when in one marriage there are two persons with their own strong ďtasteĒ (two with no taste is also bad), for example, the logical-sensory extrovert and the ethical-sensory introvert, most often the result is not two independent tastes, but the fight between them, due to each othersí selfishness.

    ENTj Ė ISFj

    The strong side of the logical-intuitive extrovert is also logic. The developed abstract thinking makes them inattentivre to their partnerís appearance, it pays little attention to that. [ - - ] Indeed, because of their inattention to the environent, they do not like to examine how others see them, they arenít always confident in their own appearance [ -- ] For the intuitive types, the acknowledgement of physical appearances by their partner is exceptionally important, therefore they need a partner with developed aesthetic feelings, in whose taste they can trust. By doing that they please themselves, for their partnerís taste is nagging and even pretentious, critical of everyone else. So they feel reassured. The ethical feelings and emotions of the ENTj are not as developed as their logic. They can only love constantly those whose emotional involvement is reciprocal . Having disorderly surroundings, they completely trust their partnerís taste [ - - ].

    Their best partner is the ethical-sensory introvert. They are also generators of deep ethical feelings and love. But since they have developed extraverted sensing, they have very independent personality, and monopolize in their hands both parts of the erotic field. They donít demonstrate their emotions, so they seem cold [ -- ]

    Their second funtion is more creative than the first. Therefore all their manifestations [ -- ] seem more valuable to the ISFjs themselves. So, regarding aesthetics, they are very exacting, categorical and often unpleasant. Everyone loves order. Itís more necessary to some, less to others. Individuals with a sensory second function note deviations from their own order on the spot. Therefore, in such things, they may seem unpleasant, prickly and malicious. In domestic matters Ė especially without a mentally supplementing partner Ė they often make rigid rules, regardless of the expense in time and energy. For them itís very important to impose their own taste in the [ -- ] clothing, the interior, that is, in everything that gives or can give pleasant sensations. For the ISFj, it is only easy with a partner who doesnít have own ďaesthetical sensory programĒ. Only an intuitive can quietly be adapted and even be contented, when another makes sure, with their program, that their life is facilitated, simplified, and enriched.

    The ethical-sensory introvert does not think about the future, and they live only for the present. They do not love expectations. If itís possible to do something today, do not put it off until tomorrow. But today itís only possible to do what has today been decided. This type is very obstinate, therefore the successful partnership with the logical-intuitve extravert, who lives not for the present day, but for what was and what will be, not limiting attention to today, not only in words, but in matters. In contrast to the logical-sensory extrovert, in daily concrete matters the ENTj yields to the will of their partner. They can interrupt one thing and start another, if this is what the partner wants.

    An ethical-sensory introvert student writes about the man of her dream:

    ďHe is fashionable, compulsorily neat and undoubtedly slender. Heís very polite, flexible, heís attentive to me and to others. He doesnít feel envy and he doesnít lie. Heís not selfish. He has an opinion about everything. He goes with me to the theater, cinema, to art exhibitions, to concerts. He loves long walks and journeys, tourist trips. He shows much, he says everything that will come to his mind. He helps me in the houseĒ.

    In the description we identify precisly the logical-intuitive extrovert. As no one else he loves to tell and to discuss what he has read and heard. Only he could obediently fulfill all these wishes.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Haha, ESTj's are shallow! Oh wait.

    Thanks for bumping this implied, it rationalized a couple of things for me. Woo hoo, I'm not completely crazy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aut0 View Post
    Haha, ESTj's are shallow! Oh wait.

    Thanks for bumping this implied, it rationalized a couple of things for me. Woo hoo, I'm not completely crazy!
    it kinda made it sound that way to me, too! //;

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    The ISFj in that description sounds exactly like me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    LSEs sound really controlling.

    I suppose ESIs also sound controlling, except that I don't see it that way (funny, that).
    They sounded more bitchy than controlling to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    LSEs sound really controlling.

    I suppose ESIs also sound controlling, except that I don't see it that way (funny, that).

    NAAAAAHHhhhhh who ever told you that?

    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Thank you, Expat. This makes a lot of things more clear for me.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Well, I think Victims are supposed to find Caregivers a bit suffocating. LSEs sound so hung up on... helping... that I would likely eventually explode and yell at them with something along the lines of "I'm not helpless you know!" (I said that poorly, but you get the picture I hope).
    I know. You and Diana talk about this thing the same way.

    But that's what I love I guess, and I'm not afraid of saying it. But that is what I like. I enjoy feeling needed a whole lot, I sort of need it I guess....


    In people with the developed sensations the intuition is not developed; therefore they exceptionally take chances, they want complete clarity and confidence. They cannot love, if they think that their feelings are unreasonable. They cannot love someone, about whom they have doubts, whom they donít trust, which causes problems. They canít love even those who are too independent and so have no need constant aid and guardianship. [ -- ] In the sphere of feelings they donít feel up to taking the risk: they can desire those who donít desire them in return, but they canít love those that donít reciprocate their love. They need a partner with deep introverted feeling, and barely noticed balanced emotions on the surface, that is, someone, whose essential internal peace (?) is the skill measure the feeling of others with their own feelings. To logical extroverts, it is exceptionally important the positive and very tactful emotional estimation of all their behavior, concerns, and efforts. For them, life is clear, light, and intelligible, when they donít spoil the mood of their partners, when they make their partners happy.
    Bam bam bam bam.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I know that description makes LSEs sound kind of terrible But if any type is going to put up with us, it is probably the INFj, the saints they are. So it works out I guess... I hope.
    (I really hope so)
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    are these around for the other dualities? i mean, these are aushra descriptions, i take it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    At least LSEs are less pathetic than LIEs.
    Pathetic? What do you mean?
    I am not going to say that LIEs are more pathetic than LSEs.


    This comes from the LIE description, but it suits me as well "They can only love constantly those whose emotional involvement is reciprocal". I really, really, being in a state where I am on the same page. I'll keep it that way and work to deepen it, so long as someone can just 'keep' it. Let me know it is there.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I can see what you mean.

    But I think LSEs can be pathetic too, because all they can do is try to do things for people. I hate being in situations where I just have to express things and cannot do things for people, it totally makes me weak and I seem odd because of it. ANd even then, its like... I am a "caregiver", but what I really need is someone who can take care of my emotions, which are extremely sensitive. I don't know how to express them, and, like it says. Like I've got the courage to "initiate", but I've got no idea, I don't know, in regard to sustaining. I am always wondering.

    Whatever this is getting at: "Just as it is necessary for logical extroverts to love someone, but they don’t know how to show it, the ethical-intuitive introverts need someone with that inclination."
    I'm not sure how it explains why they need someone with that inclination, but I guess this is the rest of the paragraph:
    "Courage doesn’t come soon, it comes with the faith in the beloved and the confidence that their feelings will not seem ridiculous, that they will not be humiliated"
    That sounds like what the INFjs are saying in the Delta Expression thread.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    There are a few things I wonder about the EII-LSE duality. Rereading this article reminds me of a couple of those.

    For example, what if the EII isn't... pretty? What if they don't come up to the LSE's standards of beauty and aesthetics? Would a relationship have any hope of even starting? (Or should we just start a nunnery/monastery for rejected EIIs?)

    What if the EII occasionally acts without rhyme or reason? What if the EII is pretty much useless when it comes to being really practical and efficient (despite their best efforts)? Exactly how off-putting is that?

    Also, what if the EII is in the habit of taking advice from many people, not just one? How upsetting is that to the ESTj, really?

    What if the EII does have a preference in taste? One that conflicts with the LSE's even?

    What if the EII is too cold and doesn't respond gently or kindly enough to the LSE's feelings? Or even fails to recognize them? After all, perhaps the LSE will be too good at not revealing their feelings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    There are a few things I wonder about the EII-LSE duality. Rereading this article reminds me of a couple of those.

    For example, what if the EII isn't... pretty? What if they don't come up to the LSE's standards of beauty and aesthetics? Would a relationship have any hope of even starting? (Or should we just start a nunnery/monastery for rejected EIIs?)
    The rough answer is: there are lots of unpretty LSEs, too, so they will have to match up with people best they can. It is about being reasonable. Really though, it isn't that big of a deal. Another aspect of being "pretty", or "beautiful" is how you act and treat other people. INFjs' lithe-ness and delicacy, I consider that to be very pretty and attractive, and it ties in with the next question, too....

    What if the EII occasionally acts without rhyme or reason? What if the EII is pretty much useless when it comes to being really practical and efficient (despite their best efforts)? Exactly how off-putting is that?
    The LSE generally expects the EII to be bad at being practical or efficient. They would enjoy very much being around someone who needs things to be made more practical and more efficient. Need things to work better? Great. Need things to be done around the house? Great. It is good for the LSE because he doesn't know how to express his feelings in other ways, so "doing things for" someone is something he feels confident in doing, not writing dramatic love poems.

    Also, what if the EII is in the habit of taking advice from many people, not just one? How upsetting is that to the ESTj, really?
    Hm, I'd say not so much. Again, this just has to do with the LSE wanting to feel needed and important. Someone who is extremely independent and not wanting any sort of help, protection, or guidance, that would be unappealing. But at the same time - and this is what you may be getting at - the LSE should not make the EII into someone who has no mind of their own and is a complete invalid.

    What if the EII does have a preference in taste? One that conflicts with the LSE's even?
    Well of course there is always some give and taste in a working relationship. I think your questions are highlighting a sort of exaggeration. I have never met an INFj who doesn't have her own taste, so I think the profile makes it sound a little like the LSE expects the EII to totally submit itself to its aesthetic desires, which is not true. To me it paints the EII as being very, very submissive about everything, which I do not expect. I enjoy catering to other people's tastes, too. EIIs are of course entitled to their own likes and dislikes.

    What if the EII is too cold and doesn't respond gently or kindly enough to the LSE's feelings? Or even fails to recognize them? After all, perhaps the LSE will be too good at not revealing their feelings.
    Hm, in my case, the LSE would just get frustrated about a lack of clarity and finally have to be really blunt and obvious if he did have to explain things. It would be uncomfortable, but it would get to the point where it was more uncomfortable to not tell, or more importantly, to not know if there was reciprocation. I think "not knowing how she feels" would eventually prompt more direct action from the LSE, provided he had them and needed to know if there was reciprocation or not.

    I would say in general that LSEs just are not good about "inner feelings". It doesn't mean they don't have them, and sometimes when they express them they will be strong or come out bad, so hopefully an EII would be able to deal with that, when it happens. When I have feelings for someone, I don't need a lot to "know", like, I don't need poems and sonnets, or whatever. I just need to really know that it is reciprocated. If I am not sure, or in doubt, then I start doubting things, and start wondering if I am more deeply into my own feelings than I ought to be. Eventually it can just build up and I get really worried, so I might just flat out ask. That usually has me in a bad situation unless I can calm myself down before hand. I just cannot tolerate unclear relationships, it bothers me. I would always, always, rather know the truth, than be deluded or appeased by being not told the truth, being avoided. Avoiding reality and basing my "feelings" off of something that is fake - that is what I despise, and that is my "fear". And I am constantly wondering if people's feelings about me are changing.

    The most peaceful thing is when I know a person's feelings about me won't change.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    By the way, I realize that these things vary from individual to individual, and I could envision scenarios where none of my concerns would become issues, but I thought I'd at least ask the questions, seeing as how what they refer to are brought up in the description. Some of it is puzzling, you must admit.
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    Yeah. I can see how the profile is not to be interpreted 100% literally, I just see it as a sort of.... guideline. Eh, I don't know. I'm tired.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    By the way, I realize that these things vary from individual to individual, and I could envision scenarios where none of my concerns would become issues, but I thought I'd at least ask the questions, seeing as how what they refer to are brought up in the description. Some of it is puzzling, you must admit.
    Minde, I agree with all of your questions. I have had the same questions about LSE too. Thanks for asking them.
    EII 4w5

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    I don't know how "They don’t demonstrate their emotions, so they seem cold" turns out with having relationships. I mean, the ESI described there could just as well close herself in her room and tidy up everything instead of entering a relationship if the only two things she's offering is bitchiness about taste, and no expression of emotions.

    PS. All negativist types are horrible(not physically), as a rule.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    LSEs sound really controlling.
    That was what I thought when I read the LSE-EII duality description. It makes me sick just by reading it. Does that description even accurately reflects a real life LSE-EII relationship? It seems more like an unhealthy and clingy interaction to me in which neither party has adequate opportunity for personal growth.

    In comparison, I find the LIE-ESI duality more balanced with equal amounts of "give-and-take" on both sides. My favorite parts of the description which I have liked or/and found admirable:

    The developed abstract thinking makes them inattentive to their partner’s appearance, it pays little attention to that. [ - - ] Indeed, because of their inattention to the environent, they do not like to examine how others see them.
    The ethical-sensory introvert does not think about the future, and they live only for the present. They do not love expectations. If it’s possible to do something today, do not put it off until tomorrow. But today it’s only possible to do what has today been decided. This type is very obstinate, therefore the successful partnership with the logical-intuitve extravert, who lives not for the present day, but for what was and what will be, not limiting attention to today, not only in words, but in matters. In contrast to the logical-sensory extrovert, in daily concrete matters the ENTj yields to the will of their partner. They can interrupt one thing and start another, if this is what the partner wants.
    “He is fashionable, compulsorily neat and undoubtedly slender. He’s very polite, flexible, he’s attentive to me and to others. He doesn’t feel envy and he doesn’t lie. He’s not selfish. He has an opinion about everything. He goes with me to the theater, cinema, to art exhibitions, to concerts. He loves long walks and journeys, tourist trips. He shows much, he says everything that will come to his mind. He helps me in the house”.
    I feel that the above "ideal partner" description doesn't imply specifically to an LIE. It simply points to any healthy type.

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    Hm, you're misinterpreting things.... you don't seem to be taking into account that this is a socionics profile, and not a verbatim description of how people are going to act.

    for example:

    The developed abstract thinking makes them inattentive to their partner’s appearance, it pays little attention to that. [ - - ] Indeed, because of their inattention to the environent, they do not like to examine how others see them.
    This does not have anything to do with an LIE not judging a woman based on her appearance.

    I get the feeling that you read this and think "wow, that's a great guy, one who does not just look at a girl and base her worth off her features".

    Yes? Or am I wrong.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Hm, you're misinterpreting things.... you don't seem to be taking into account that this is a socionics profile, and not a verbatim description of how people are going to act.

    for example:


    This does not have anything to do with an LIE not judging a woman based on her appearance.

    I get the feeling that you read this and think "wow, that's a great guy, one who does not just look at a girl and base her worth off her features".

    Yes? Or am I wrong.
    Taking the LSE-EII description for instance, I didn't treat it as a verbatim description of how the LSE-EII interaction must be like. I was just interested to find out whether it generally describes a conventional interaction between both types IRL, apart from exceptions in the rule.

    As for the LIE description, I didn't exactly have what you had proposed in mind. It's more of an appreciation for LIEs for been more easygoing and not too fuzzy about one's appearance ,as compared to others who are too concentrated to the extent that they care too much about unnecessary minute details.

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    I strongly dislike this esi lie description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carrina View Post
    I strongly dislike this esi lie description.
    What do you dislike about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Your value judgement has been noted. Not that it made me any wiser or more knowledgeable.....
    Lol equally noted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    What do you dislike about it?

    It paints a terrible picture of LIE and I can't have that. I feel like her headspace may have been a little toward the -ne when she wrote it. It provides a fair warning but why drilling in the point of LIE being such a bastard? I mean over and over.

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