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Thread: IEI-LSE Conflict Relations (INFp and ESTj)

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    Default IEI-LSE Conflict Relations (INFp and ESTj)

    Thing is, I saw the "comfort" level of these conflict relations (INFp/ESTp/ESTj/INFj) in the Article's thread bionicgoat,smilex,mitsutti,kioshi, were posting in....and...the comfort level wasn't the lowest of the pairings. I agree with this. I can hang out for a whole day in that grouping and not experience the kind of discomfort I experience in other groupings.

    Quote Originally Posted by cone
    The female ESTj said to me once, "I always feel like I have to socialize with the people around me, you know, introduce myself, learn where they're from, etc. But I don't want to do this; I don't like it, but I can't help it." Here's a prime example of Fe as a role function.
    I get the same kind of thing from my ESTj friend.

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    Default Re: My ESTj/INFp relation

    manic giggles <3

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    le petit prince raisonpure's Avatar
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    I used to get along pretty well with ESTjs. I liked how a teacher of mine didn't give up on me and would encourage me even when I felt really awful about myself. That was, until my recent experiences with a really unhealthy ESTj (8w9 sx). Not sure if the Fe role causes the most problems -- I wish he would be more careful about hurting others. It's his Fi dual-seeking that's troublesome -- so much that my ISFj employer gave up on him only after a week's exposure to his nasty traits. Whenever I try to lecture him on the merits of being refraining from acting on misunderstandings too quickly, he's like "I don't want to listen. I'm busy right now." The last time I demanded an apology for insulting my and others' integrity, he evaded it by saying "you don't have much integrity in you, anyway". I lost my patience with him, and dared him to show his offensive work for everyone to see and judge if he had the guts for it. Well, he didn't, and "you're never going to grow up if you can't examine yourself... Coward" were the Last Words I threw at him. I didn't realize how reliant I had become on him until I broke down shortly afterwards... I still feel like a knife has been driven into my heart when I think about the incident. After a week, he admitted to my mother that he was childish and wrong, asking me to come back. I wouldn't. When he called her a few days later to breach the subject, he added that "Cancers are known to harbour deep grudges" I hope he'll suffer from at least half of the pain I feel for the rest of his life -- it will teach him to pause before saying mean things to people in a fit of anger.
    “I think, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand (ESTp, UR GUARDIAN ANGEL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisonpure
    "Cancers are known to harbour deep grudges"


    haha.

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    le petit prince raisonpure's Avatar
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    It's strange. He only cares about me and feels regretful when I leave him. A few days ago, I hung up on him as soon as I heard his voice. The second time he called, I became enraged when he uttered my name... I was so revolted that I let slip a sound that was equivalent to "Hmph!" and hung up on him again. My mother informed me that he sounded depressed when he called her. Then he denied her a favour that he had been willing to grant her before I fucked up (same old bad habit strikes again... when will he ever learn? ). Then he "sounded relieved" and was became more agreeable when my mother later explained that I did it because I didn't know what to say. Not that I have anything more to say to him, anyway. This has happened, what, 2 times before already? I forgave him, went back to him, and then came away with a deeper wound because my invulnerability lowered with every hour that I spent with him. He's a week too late, he is. Needs to realize that this is not a child's game.

    And I still have to make an effort to be diplomatic the next time he calls... Instead of blurting something like "I hate you, don't talk to me, you'd better suffocate in misery... Buh bye!"
    “I think, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand (ESTp, UR GUARDIAN ANGEL)

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    Default ESTj and INFp?

    Somebody please give me lots of examples of how a conflicting relationship between ESTjs and INFps would work out. For some reason I never really hear about this relationship. I want real examples of how it's played in 'real life' not just 'oh INFp doesn't get the they need' or some shit like that.

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    I haven't seen this one actually played out in real-life, but i have thoughts on it.

    Leading versus Vulnerable : The ESTj wants the INFp to be more active, get more work done, and will criticise the INFp unless it's doing something useful.

    Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

    Role versus Creative : ESTj's are able to do actions now, and criticise the INFp who worries about what it is able to do now.

    Role versus Creative : INFp wants a more emotionally drenched atmosphere and gets annoyed at the ESTj's dry attempt to create it. ESTj is annoyed by the INFp's tendency to focus on the Atmosphere rather the work that needs to be done, or the information that needs to be transmitted.

    ...

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    Default Re: ESTj and INFp?

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves
    I want real examples of how it's played in 'real life'
    Okkkaaaay, you asked for it. Get ready to read.

    Plenty of clarifying and adjusting. Lots of laughs.

    THROUGH E-MAIL:

    Me: Hey, if you have time/interest, read over this story that ISFp wrote. She mustered the effort to put all her funny genius into writing but as you'll see, it needs major editing. She asked me to do it, but I'm no expert! Plus, I've never-ever felt comfy editing other people's writings. Could you give it a looksy and let me know if there is anything that you'd change.

    ESTj: WOW, interesting...hummmm... I'll give you a call and we'll talk about it.

    OVER THE PHONE:

    ESTj: OMG, what did you think about it????

    Me: I enjoyed seeing animals through her eyes. I mean, who imagines such things!? The twist at the end had me laughing out loud.

    ESTj: Really? Honestly, I couldn't get through it. All those pronouns! I couldn't tell who was who. It was so disconnected.

    Me: Yeah, I know. She's aware of this, that's why she asked me to help edit. It didn't bother me, it's just technique she needs to work on. What did you think about the story?

    ESTj: Uhmmm, that's another thing. It was kind of weird. A cat falling in love with a dog...and admiring it from afar...not being able to get together. It's weird no?

    Me: Haha, it doesn't bother me.

    ESTj: Hey, do you think it was inspired by her own life? You know, her being...gay?

    Me: Yeah, the thought crossed my mind.

    ESTj: Have you ever stopped and wonder if she...ever...had feelings for you? haha

    Me: Haha, no.

    ESTj: INFj gets really agitated by gay people. He says they complicate their lives. They complain about their lives yet they're the ones choosing the behaviors/lifestyle. If it's causing them so much trouble, why would they pursue it?

    Me: Yeah, I dunno. I don't really know what she feels. What it's like for her.

    ESTj: She doesn't talk to you about it?

    Me: I don't feel comfortable asking about it.

    ESTj: REALLY? I imagined you would.

    Me: No, not with super personal things like that.

    ESTj: But she's always been a good friend of yours.

    Me: Yeah, but...she's very private about relationship stuff.

    ESTj: But why don't you ask? She might want to talk about this stuff with someone.

    Me: True.

    ESTj: Are you comfortable talking about this?

    Me: Not really, hahaha.

    ESTj: I could tell.

    Me: Yeah, I just feel like I'm gossiping. I dunno, she's my pal, you know?

    ESTj: Yeah, I know. Just tell me whenever you don't want to talk about something. Seriously, just tell me. Okay? Please do me that favor.

    Me: haha, okay.

    BTW, I recalled every word. That was the exact conversation. I'm that good. heh

    She turned the conversation into a sort of gossip fest and it was awkward. She's very considerate though, always urging me to let her know when I'm not into something we're doing/talking about. She's aware that I tend to do things I don't want to do, simply to go along with someone and not let them down. She always requests that I be straight out with her. I learned from her that YES means yes and NO means no.

    Another time, she came to visit and I took her to the beach. Not just any beach! I took her to the dog beach. It's a pretty special place for me. I wanted to share that with her. However, she brought along her toddler. Couldn't really take her to the actual dog beach, so I parked a few blocks down and walked to another part of the beach. I should have listened to my husband when he asked, we're going to THAT beach? Turns out, that beach is filty. Always has been. Of course that's not something that registered in my mind as I whimsically imagined all of us caught up in the beauty of my special beach. yeah, not quite. ESTj immediately quiets down and I look around and realize the cigarrette butts and plastic containers have putt her off. We leave. Drive another 20 minutes to another beach. I'm a dork. I mean, she has us take off our shoes before we walk into her home! I should of known better. lol I'm sure that let her down a bit, but she put on a happy face and rolled with it.

    Lots of adjusting and compromising. Sometimes with good will, other times with frustration. It depends if we're stressed, I've noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePeddler
    I haven't seen this one actually played out in real-life, but i have thoughts on it.

    Leading versus Vulnerable : The ESTj wants the INFp to be more active, get more work done, and will criticise the INFp unless it's doing something useful.

    Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

    Role versus Creative : ESTj's are able to do actions now, and criticise the INFp who worries about what it is able to do now.

    Role versus Creative : INFp wants a more emotionally drenched atmosphere and gets annoyed at the ESTj's dry attempt to create it. ESTj is annoyed by the INFp's tendency to focus on the Atmosphere rather the work that needs to be done, or the information that needs to be transmitted.

    ...
    Good. Another thing I've noticed is that if an INFp is not getting the Ti he expects, he will lash out with Fe (for example, publicly embarrassing the ESTj).

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    le petit prince raisonpure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePeddler
    Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.
    Example conversations I often had with my teacher:

    ESTj: You need to be faster. You don't have enough time. At the rate you're going, you're not going to make it.
    I think: 4 months is plenty of time, and you never know what could happen. I can alter my pace at any time, I'm just waiting for the flash of inspiration.

    ESTj: You need to plan for your future.
    I think: Plans are subject to change. I never know what might come up and throw me off course. Besides, I neglect the present if I get absorbed in the future. I just want to focus on what I can do now.

    ESTj: What's past is past. It's pointless to dwell on the past. Why make yourself miserable by thinking so much?
    Me: One ought to analyze the past and remember it well so as not to repeat those mistakes in a future situation with the same variables. It is prevention for the future.
    ESTj: You can't prevent things from happening. Anything could happen.
    I think: History repeats itself. As long as you detect the patterns in time, you can prevent the rest from happening.

    ESTj: Will you be coming tomorrow?
    Me: Eh, it depends on the weather.
    (ESTj hates uncertainty)

    One of the first things that I noticed about him was that he was too impatient. He was terrible at waiting, and I'd lecture him about that. Those lectures never went anywhere and resulted only in frustration. I'm currently living with a younger clone of my ESTj teacher, and he comes across as simple-minded because his entire focus is also on how to make a living; mine is on how to live meaningfully, which is why I often get sad from thinking about a wasted past (ESTj #2 finds the perpetual melancholy puzzling). Living meaningfully entails thinking all day long about who I am and what I'm here for, watching animes/dramas/movies to refine my worldview, and spending hours writing down my thoughts. I am on a quest to understand life, but don't live one of my own. ESTj #1 and #2 ensure their survival, but refuse to waste their time thinking about the Mysteries of the Universe, and would see what I do as inactivity. I've given up arguing about beliefs with them because their priorities are simply so different.
    “I think, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand (ESTp, UR GUARDIAN ANGEL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisonpure

    ESTj: What's past is past. It's pointless to dwell on the past. Why make yourself miserable by thinking so much?
    Me: One ought to analyze the past and remember it well so as not to repeat those mistakes in a future situation with the same variables. It is prevention for the future.
    ESTj: You can't prevent things from happening. Anything could happen.
    I think: History repeats itself. As long as you detect the patterns in time, you can prevent the rest from happening.
    This looks familiar. I had an ISFp friend who made exactly the same comments as your ESTj teacher, and I even started a thread on it. I find it frustrating whenever we talked about this sort of issue 'cos she would always assert that what's past is past and the best way we can deal with it is to ignore it and stop thinking about it.

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    Tell that person to come on this forum. It's obvious he needs to be educated about gay people. Or ask him 'when did you choose to be straight.' What a bitch. I wanted to hit him. (of course I have to control my temper I guess cause people don't learn that way, but it gets tiring when you encounter this idiocy. It's really not that hard to be more open-minded...)

    And thanks, yes, I can really see how they clash now, thanks. I think my general sense is that INFjs want to be accumulated in the 'real world' more and cured of their 'freak nature' (for lack of a better phrase) but the INFps want to stay that way. And ESTps are not as 'tightly-wound' to make them change this, they are enhanced by it.

    I'm not sure I ever got close to an ESTj for this reason to really feel the conflicting nature. (assuming I am an INFp not too sure) I'm not really attracted by overly practical business like people anyway, which is what you seem to be describing ESTjs as. What you see is what you get, might be true, but it's also boring... a rich fantasy life never hurt anyone. (imo) And I think you can only really get to know who is your conflicter/dual until you get to know them. When people act like that I just zone out really, and tell them in my own way I am not interested in what they say.

    I only had really one true enemy my entire life. I'll try to describe her behavior on why we conflicted... so people can help me out (lol this is fun) Um okay new post though...

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    Okay this was my first boss so I guess we would have conflicted naturally anyway haha (maybe not though) Anyway I hated her because she always criticized me and called me out. (guess that's not related to socionics...) Well um, oh yeah, I don't actually mind being bossed around if I know people have my best interests at heart but I didn't sense that with her. It's like she only wanted me to do more work for work's sake, not when there was a meaningful reason to. She would automatically make me do more things, and said I thought too much. She also tried to get me to repeat my fantasies to her so she could properly de-construct them. Seriously she tried to 'correct' my ideals as if they needed to be corrected and as if I wasn't aware they were inside my head and my head only. Totally annoying. Also she seemed to try to defend me on the wrong things, like I think she could tell I was upset and she didn't want to be totally heartless, so she tried to stood up for me, but it sounded like... I don't know. She defended me on things I didn't need to be protected with at all, and made me think she was just being patronizing. She even thought I was mentally ill once and suggested I see a psychiatrist. Needless to say I am glad I don't work for her anymore.

    She walked with a powerful strut, but also looked like she was constipated all the time. Me, I'm much more relaxed, and self-deprecating, and a bit goofy. She also drove a fast, red car and she was very verbal. She would laugh at people if they tried to get aggressive with her and would just stand up to her face. She had a bit of a temper herself. She would also accuse me of 'playing the victim.'

    Of course I wasn't innocent either. Whenever I said something, she too would just get so angry and kind of dissatisfied. One time she even took my arm and shook it (she's not very strong she just pretends she is) I don't know though. She would say little snide comments like in our diversity workshops at work (everybody knew I was gay) she would say 'no, being gay isn't wrong but some people view it as morally wrong' and then looked right at me AS IF I DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!!! She didn't say this really bitchy though, it was more like insidious or patronizing as if I was some poor little child that didn't know how the world worked. I also pissed her off because I would turn everything into a joke kinda or I would just kind of smile at things. She didn't think I obeyed social norms well enough. We always felt a sense of peace when we weren't around each other. Also like text book conflictors, when I first saw her I thought I REALLY liked her. She had such a nice fashion sense. (lol what a fag huh but that's the first thing I noticed about her) She knew how to pull off leather really well.

    Still a she-bitch though. Yeah we really wanted to kill each other. Everybody always said to me 'oh she's not that bad' but I wouldn't listen lol. She also accused me of sexualizing everything which I admit I do but it's fun lol.

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    Based on that, I'd say INTj, with INFp second.

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    Interesting. I can somewhat see ESFj as my dual. And my is in fact weak. Has that 'forceful yet caring' kinda vibe that I really enjoy. Hmm. Not sure about the rest of the functions though I'll have to study INTjs more. Can definitely relate to the alpha quadra too.

    I'll have to think more about this.

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    Hmm. Now I can REALLY see this.

    Okay. You convinced me somehow. ;p I am an INTj from here on out. Damn though that seems so common WAAAH I WANNABE SPECIAL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves
    Hmm. Now I can REALLY see this.

    Okay. You convinced me somehow. ;p I am an INTj from here on out. Damn though that seems so common WAAAH I WANNABE SPECIAL.
    AFAIK, you're the only homosexual here. That's special.

    Though I wonder...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves
    Hmm. Now I can REALLY see this.

    Okay. You convinced me somehow. ;p I am an INTj from here on out. Damn though that seems so common WAAAH I WANNABE SPECIAL.
    AFAIK, you're the only homosexual here. That's special.

    Though I wonder...
    Nope..Don't wanna ruin that... But yeah...

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    Maybe ISFp? I think you're Alpha too, but Fe ego is making a lot of sense.

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    I've found that the best way to work with ESTjs (in INFps' case) is to use logic (develop your hidden agendas!). They haven't the most rational thought processes, despite their insistence that they do. So if they start spouting off irrationally, either ignore them (if they're in a position of authority over you), or point out the absurdity of their comments in as subtle a way possible. Don't come at them with emotional arguments; it's like putting oil on fire. They respect smart people, so be smart.
    Also, it's an INFp tendency to be open and self-deprecating. I've learned not to be this way in business situations because it can be a liability; if people see your flaws, it makes them think that you're easy to take advantage of, and you're opening yourself up to all sorts of trouble when that happens. My business motto is "friendly, but distant." Putting on the veneer of an aloof, yet competent individual is my shield, and though it's not always the best way to make friends and business associates, it's a good way to earn respect.
    Another thing with ESTjs as bosses: do what they want, give them what they want, and leave it at that. Don't let them know anything about you, and don't try to win them over, because it won't work.
    One more thing... we INFps need to work on being more assertive. While it's great to be agreeable and easy-going, you need to protect yourself in today's world, so learn to stand up for yourself!
    I respect ESTjs, I really do. I just don't connect with them, and they concern me because of our radically different ideals. But with a few adjustments, we can peacefully co-exist.
    INFp, Intuitive subtype, Enneagram 6w5
    Back in school and on semi-permanent hiatus from the forum

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    Angry conflictor rant

    Recent events have compelled me to rant about my conflictor. Feel free to disregard this post.

    Here's the deal: I plan on studying clinical psychology in graduate school (at the masters level; I'm not qualified enough to get into a doctoral program), and a great number of the administrators and professors in clinical psychology programs are ESTjs. This surprised me, because I didn't think that clinical psychology would be a field ESTjs would gravitate to. I was wrong.

    Anyway, I had a very disappointing interview with one program's chairpersons, both of whom were ESTjs. I explained to them my interest in psychology as a philosophy and as a practice, how I'd read books by Freud, Rogers, Beck, and Ellis, how I'd come up with new ideas for self-actualizing psychotherapies, how I was motivated to become a psychotherapist because I cared about people, and how I was open to a broad array of research interests and wasn't committed to one thing and one thing only. They looked at me with disdain and confusion. They wanted to know what research I'd completed, what specific project I was looking to do, and what administrative questions I had. This is totally understandable, seeing that research elements are critically important to psychology as a scientific discipline, but they COMPLETELY ignored the humanistic aspect of psychology. They weren't interested in anything philosophical, emotional, or interpersonal, regardless of how relevant it might be to becoming a good clinician. It was a bad interview and there was a lot of disagreement, tension, and bewildered stares (on their part, mostly). I felt like an outcast.

    Anyway, my point is this: it's frustrating to be constantly subjected to the authority of people whose values and perspectives are so fundamentally different from your own. Especially when these people hold positions of power across the board and use these positions of power to impose their personal beliefs of what's "normal" on others. It's invalidating to have that which you value in yourself frowned upon, and it really does a number on your self-esteem.

    But I'm not giving up. I'm going to find a program whose leaders I connect with and from whom I can learn new things.

    I hope you all are well .

    /end rant/


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    First of all, are you sure that you are INFP? DO you have any pics?

    As to ESTJs: you have to careful. I will post more on this.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by concertina View Post

    Anyway, I had a very disappointing interview with one program's chairpersons, both of whom were ESTjs. I explained to them my interest in psychology as a philosophy and as a practice, how I'd read books by Freud, Rogers, Beck, and Ellis, how I'd come up with new ideas for self-actualizing psychotherapies, how I was motivated to become a psychotherapist because I cared about people, and how I was open to a broad array of research interests and wasn't committed to one thing and one thing only. They looked at me with disdain and confusion. They wanted to know what research I'd completed, what specific project I was looking to do, and what administrative questions I had. This is totally understandable, seeing that research elements are critically important to psychology as a scientific discipline, but they COMPLETELY ignored the humanistic aspect of psychology. They weren't interested in anything philosophical, emotional, or interpersonal, regardless of how relevant it might be to becoming a good clinician. It was a bad interview and there was a lot of disagreement, tension, and bewildered stares (on their part, mostly). I felt like an outcast.

    Anyway, my point is this: it's frustrating to be constantly subjected to the authority of people whose values and perspectives are so fundamentally different from your own. Especially when these people hold positions of power across the board and use these positions of power to impose their personal beliefs of what's "normal" on others. It's invalidating to have that which you value in yourself frowned upon, and it really does a number on your self-esteem.


    /end rant/

    I believe you can cope with this problem by narrowing down your focus. Much of this has nothing to with type or personal value, but with the expectation of graduate programs for students to graduate in two years. If you come in with a broad focus and no specific and manageable idea for a research project (however tentative), it is virtually impossible to complete coursework and a research project within two years. Most programs want you to be committed to an area. You can change that later, but they want to see that you fit in their program and that they have the people to support you.

    Don't take it personally. It's not that they don't believe you have nothing to offer. But grad schools across the board are looking for the same thing: people who fit in with their program and in order to assess that, they need to know what your specific interests are. And that they are doable.

    At the graduate level, caring about people is not a good enough reason for them; you need to be well-informed about the strengths of their programs are and see if you fit in. Research faculty interests and see if someone is interested in the philosophical side of clinical psychology. Email them and ask them questions.

    Sorry, you probably weren't looking for advice, but I wanted to point out that you are not doomed with all those ESTjs out there. It just seems to me that your approach was too vague and too personal for them.

    Good luck!
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    The moral of the story is this: Deltas belong in the Rockies in their little wooden cabin. Don't disturb their peace or they'll set a bear on you.

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    To dio: yes, I am 100% sure I'm INFp. I've taken the test 1 billion times, explored the intertype relations chart, and let socionics consume my soul. Fits me to a tee.

    Kim, thanks so much for your advice - you seriously calmed me down and helped me to take things less personally. I suppose my best line of defense in these situations is to find a program whose directors I see eye-to-eye with, and whose goals better meet mine. Though I liked the specifics of the program a great deal, clinical psychology probably isn't the best for me. Counseling or social/personality psychology would fit much better.

    As for you, Esper, I actually had an interview with the chair of the Experimental Psych. program at the same university and it went really well! He was a social psychologist and was really interested in the kinds of philosophical, esoteric topics I was talking about. Really pleasant, open-minded, yet disciplined guy. And at the current university I attend, the PhD program's chair is ENFj, so it all depends on where you go, and not all doors are closed .

    But yeah, this wasn't so much a hopelessness rant as it was a frustration rant. The two ESTjs were incredibly arrogant and condescending, and that pissed me off more than anything else. Such is life, though; you can't get along with everyone :/.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    The moral of the story is this: Deltas belong in the Rockies in their little wooden cabin. Don't disturb their peace or they'll set a bear on you.
    yeah really. and fuck with betas and we'll send an ESTP to ya. hehehehe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by concertina View Post
    Recent events have compelled me to rant about my conflictor. Feel free to disregard this post.

    Here's the deal: I plan on studying clinical psychology in graduate school (at the masters level; I'm not qualified enough to get into a doctoral program), and a great number of the administrators and professors in clinical psychology programs are ESTjs. This surprised me, because I didn't think that clinical psychology would be a field ESTjs would gravitate to. I was wrong.

    ****Of course they will, yeah, INFJ is their dual...All programs need administrators....And at heart they're a bit of an INFJ, too (though in terms of guidance i think they tend to guide people off a cliff). Granted there are some alternative types of programs that probably are more open to Healer types. Also, You ever consider art therapy? ********

    ***I accidentally deleted this part...RE: to be subjected to the life crushing authority of people whos values differ from yours and who are like nazis about normalcy (there's a great quote somewhere by henry miller describing that type of person as a psychopath). ...

    ****Well said. ESTJs are wicked life crushing, soulless, backstabbing bastards. Scum of the earth just like their mirror, generally (not always...rare cases of them redeeming themselves...for a time).************

    But I'm not giving up. I'm going to find a program whose leaders I connect with and from whom I can learn new things.

    ****Right on! Do that!!***************


    I hope you all are well .

    /end rant/

    xo
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    Default IEIs, please explain how you think you conflict with LSEs

    Particularly on the ground of insensitivity. What are things do you think LSE's don't get, and why are they important, etc
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    i think it's more apparent what ESTjs don't like about INFps.. I think INFps tend to go with the flow more than not so they're less likely to be concerned with what's wrong with other people, ime... they might be angry about culture or something, though. But this conflict pair is what i'm most interested in hearing about. I can't see anyone hating INFps...

    I have not noticed an ESTj INFp pair in real life, but I could see an INFp just reacting to an Ni polr.. like "dude needs to chill out" or something like that.. like "why get your panties in a bunch when it's not gonna turn out like that, why plan for every single thing that could go wrong, why does he care that everything is not just so"

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    To be quite honest, most of the LSEs I know are actually pretty decent people who really aren't at all "insensitive." It's just that we live in such different worlds that we can't really find enough common ground for more than a superficial discussion. The conflicts that arise are mostly because we find each other's ideal lifestyles undesirable/boring/uncomfortable. I've actually had much more vocal conflict with my supervisor and my activity partner. Even my dual. With LSEs, the conflict just stems from a complete incompatibility of personalities than anything that's worth duking it out (metaphorically speaking) about.

    Like my friend's step-father. All he really talks about are his lawn, his car and his job as an electrical engineer. Some of what he says is actually quite fascinating and you can really tell he's very passionate about those particular things. But apart from a few aspects here and there, I find those subjects really quite boring and sometimes resent that he doesn't understand me when I try and talk about the stuff I'm passionate about in my life. There's a lot of talking past each other in Conflict relations, I find.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    To be quite honest, most of the LSEs I know are actually pretty decent people who really aren't at all "insensitive." It's just that we live in such different worlds that we can't really find enough common ground for more than a superficial discussion. The conflicts that arise are mostly because we find each other's ideal lifestyles undesirable/boring/uncomfortable. I've actually had much more vocal conflict with my supervisor and my activity partner.

    Like my friend's step-father. All he really talks about are his lawn, his car and his job as an electrical engineer. Some of what he says is actually quite fascinating and you can really tell he's really passionate about those things. But apart from a few aspects here and there, I find those things really quite boring and resent that he doesn't understand me when I try and talk about the stuff I'm passionate about in my life.
    This is a conflictor relationship described well, Baby.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    There's a lot of talking past each other in Conflict relations, I find.
    Well said
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Ive seen a LSE guy and IEI girl interract quite a few times. Im not 100% sure of the girls type but pretty sure. From my experience there didn't seem to be a great deal of conflicting, it seemed quite toned down. Same with SEI and LIE. Ive asked them if they could see the conflictor relation, LSE had no idea what i was talking about and IEI i think said she could a little. LIE said he could definately see it but it doesn't stop him going to the movies with him?? I think perhaps theres an element with your conflictor where you know not to argue because it is going to turn ugly, almost a slight fear. Once that barrier passes it sucks.

    Nothing like my conflictor relations with LSI's, but thats been fostering over years
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    what I see from one IEI and LSE, the IEI doesn't understand why the LSE is always giving new tasks to her. She has everything planned and knows what she has to do and then the LSE multiplies the workload and takes it for granted that she does everything asked of her. After all, she agreed to help, even though she agreed when it was still a small task. Then the IEI says, "he's so insensitive and doesn't understand how this is such a difficult and time-consuming project. I already agreed to help so I can't say I won't help him. I wish he was more considerate with what he asks of me."
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    Can't say I've really sat down and analyzed my potentialities for conflict w/ESTjs... but my immediate impression would be that the tendency in any type to get caught up in minute details and missing the forest for the tree annoys me. Insistence on following "policy" to the letter and the attitude that "We don't do that because that's not the way it's been done".

    Seems to me that ESTjs would be likely to be stubbornly logic-based and most adamant about adhering to convention. Inflexible and mired in tedious details.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    3--when the LSE tried to push the IEI to focus on every little detail and do it in the prescribed manner every time, this will frustrate the IEI and maybe even make them feel like the LSE is getting on their back about something so trivial that takes too much effort to notice in the first place--as long as it gets done, isn't that all that matters?
    Of course that's not all that matters.



    The LSE may be great at figuring how to make things work properly in the immediate task, and may be absolutely wonderful with it. But when it comes to deciphering people's motives enough to find the right person to trust and buddy-buddy up with (Fe--Fi?), the LSE, IME, is often duped. They tend to try to take care of other's needs (Si), giving away money, food, gifts, all the time, without having an actual ability to percieve if that person intends to give her something return (Fe--Fi?).
    That's true, and that's why I actually don't trust people much. I'm not sure how that explains IEI and LSE conflict however. Just because it is so foreign to you, I suppose.

    The LSE may work relentlessly at a task, and when finally at the end of the world when all their energy is completely spent, they often leave themselves in a precarious position. A great task is finished to perfection, but the long-term gains are hard to find (Ni?). Yet in both these areas--the ability to know people's motives (Fe) and how things will develop over time (Ni)--even through repeated system of behavior and failures, the LSE will claim that they know exactly what these things are--precisely--probably better than you do.
    That is definitely the manifestation of trying to avoid weak functions and being an unhealthy LSE. I've seen this, and in my own ways, I've been there myself, although more so with people's motives, rather than focusing too much on perfecting one task.



    Of course, this is IME, which may more extreme than your experiences. You know, somebody should describe a good experience with an ESTj. I would like to see that.
    ...yet it would be against the purpose of this thread. A lot of people have said how swell things are, but that's not what I really wanted to find out. Heh but if you need to 'boost the mood' here, go ahead.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esper View Post
    It is the hardest thing, IME, to convince an LSE of anything new. Like, any fundamental, real concept. You might be able to tack some obscure structure ontop of their existing fundamentals, and give them some kind of awkward converter to help them deal with the world, but that's about it.
    Perhaps the LSE sees your Ni as mysticism and as such redundant and even counterproductive. And your Fe as being shallow and distracting. So when you approach them while being all dramatic and mystical they see you as a rambling fool and what you say to be disregarded as having no substance and relevance.

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    It seems that conflictors are problematic because they represent someone who is focused on entirely foreign things to you, and the fact that they live their lives based on those values proves that those values (functions, really) actually exist in reality. To me this is kind of more apparent with ENFjs, because they are more vibrant and active and are more pioneering in their work - so they spread the influence of functions I least like - Fe and Ni, particularly together.

    An LSE's focus on Te and Si must be problematic for an IEI because those are the things which, in its standard programing of reality, it tries to avoid or significantly undervalues. (As types get healthier, I believe, they are less radically averse to their weaker functions having reality - they get a bit more "enlightened" as a whole, in terms of their understanding and interpretation of reality). But I know as myself, when I'm cheating, I just don't want to care about Ni and Fe. I basically say, screw this - I'm not dealing with this. I can still get things done anyway

    Why the hell are people wasting their time and talking, chatting, goofing around? What is this bullshit you're talking about, it's irrelevant, lets just get this done now so we can move on to the next thing. And most of the time it feels like I'm one of the few people really concerned with actually pushing things forward, so that makes my position even more at odds with some people.

    The point being, when I am "angry", or "discontent", or psychologically disbalanced, what goes out the window are the weak functions, and I am inclined to try to just avoid them. Every type as far as I've seen does this. Or they just get hyperfocused on their ego block, thinking therein lies all the answers.

    I think, as I said at the beginning, conflictor relationship is offensive or simply totally incompatible because that hyperfocus on the ego block and/or outright neglect of the super id is the hallmark of turmoil in conflicting relationships. As I said, it is more apparent with ENFjs for me, however, because they seem much more bent on spreading the functions I don't like, whereas with INFps, they sort of keep to themselves, and I basically learn enough to just avoid them, or deal with them only on certain matters.

    Obviously you can get along with your conflictor fine, but I think it somewhat requires that you are of a healthy mental state, and secure in yourself and your understanding of reality. I know a few INFps and I am decent friends with them. When it gets into technical discussion, I find them constantly asking me to explain things, and I wonder why they do that. "I'm confused". : / I wonder if they are reading into my words too much, and it is like I have to explain everything out over again, to which they don't really enjoy. But that is only with one INFp in particular, at this time.


    Again, this isn't to say we cannot coexist, I made this thread to try to understand more about reality and my interpretation of it, and why there are some tensions with some people. It seems to go back, ultimately, to what was said about the other person simply devaluing your ego block, which is interpreted as devaluing the crux of your existence.

    Learning from your conflictors though could be kind of interesting. It seems that duals help you facilitate this process though, by connecting superego functions to the valued, superid functions. I wonder -- thinking of this just now -- if that is a good way to interpret one's generally unvalued superego functions.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Supervision relations: INFp IEI and ESFj ESE

    Last edited by inumbra; 07-29-2008 at 04:28 PM.

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    I think my mom is ESE as well.

    Sometimes I wonder if mom's act care-giver like and then it seems they're ESE. I still think my mom is ESE though...

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