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Thread: Stratiyevskaya: INTj

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    Default Stratiyevskaya: INTj

    Block Of ego*y-ya Position * Program Function * The "logic Of relationships"
    "validity - my craft" "a representative of this type always passionate champion for the validity. It considers that everything in the world must be logically and, therefore, it is correct. Frequently it reflects about the creation of the state of absolute validity, about the establishment of authority, which must begin its activity from the severe penalty of all, who conduct unrighteous life, i.e., he disrupts the principles of validity. (idea of "terrible law court"). Any of the representatives of this type divides the thought, expressed in the American Declaration of Independence,: "all people are created equal, they are allotted by god by some inherent rights, among which life, freedom, tendency toward the happiness".

    It is deeply democratic on the nature, since democracy as the possibility of selection is understood. It considers that only then the society has the right to require of the man of full responsibility for his behavior, when each member of society obtains the complete right of freedom of choice his actions. It considers that discipline in the society must be based not on the fear, but on the conscience. Therefore the punishment of "law-breaker" considers as training his conscience, i.e. - for its good. Robesp'er usually entertains idea itself that any punishment only then acts effectively, when man realizes his fault.

    Robesp'er tries produmanno and tselenapravlenno to select the measures for disciplinary action. Usually its punishment includes the element of the training: misbehaved compulsorily must be convincing proven its fault. The proof of the fault Of robesp'er usually erects so it it logically and so clearly argues which, as a rule, is very difficult to it in this to object. (at least because all proofs Of robesp'era, in the essence, are reduced to the idea of the "highest validity" and the concept of "objective truth", and to reconvince it and to prove that its idea - altogether only of the abstract notion, on which it is not possible to measure specific conditions and circumstances of situation, impossibly, since this point of view, in his opinion, leads to confusion and chaos, that it considers it very dangerous for the society) its rightness it always only proves.

    To persuade, but those more to request - does not love. The increased requirements on others it usually imposes only if itself corresponds to them. "I think - consequently, there exist". Robesp'er from nature is allotted by strongly developed logic and capabilities for analytical thinking it loves to discuss about different models, structures, diagrams and classifications. In any phenomena it searches for and the original causes of the existing contradictions and illogicalities find. Is approached logical accordion and logical order - the main requirement of its logical program - the objective truth, criterion of which considers not so much practice, as integrity and logical order. "truth - this whole" (Hegel).

    All everyday and ethical situations are examined from the point of view of logic. Moreover it usually rejects excess (in his opinion) details, focusing larger attention on general regularities "global logic"). A feeling of the protection of validity is highly developed. Protecting incorrectly obizhennogo, it frequently disregards its own benefit and safety. From the considerations of the protection of validity it can forego the bright professional career and be switched to the public activity (academician A d. Saxarov).

    Of robesp'eru to characteristically place the interests of truth and validity it is higher than its personal interests and the interests of its family. Making decision, Robesp'er first of all is counted its own conscience and least of all it is inclined to depend on strange opinion and authorities acknowledged in the society. Assuming for itself any idea. Robesp'er becomes its sequential supporter and it serves as it in a most fanatic manner: it subordinates all its thoughts and actions to this idea, subordinates to it entire its means of life.

    It, as a rule, least of all is inclined to be counted with the public opinion in this situation. If as a result of fight for the idea it falls into conditions, with which its idea coincides with the predominant opinion of society (for example, Robesp6er- dissident at long last it falls into the "free country"), in this case it experiences a certain disappointment with the need for living "as all". Robesp'er feels itself by somewhat devastated, when from its life departs the element of "fight for the idea".

    The state of fight for it already becomes too customary, it it is already necessary as the standard of life. In this case Robesp'er is prepared for the search for the new, progressive idea, capable "of pleasing" society. And even if new idea then is not immense as previous, and it does not require such renunciation, it with the readiness fills the formed void with it. (Robesp'er, as a rule, is not distracted to the small "toy" ideas. If it does not find for itself sufficiently "scale" idea, it makes possible for itself to live "as all".)

    Robesp'er is always politically active (quality, inherent in all representatives of first and second kvadry). It always disturb the problems of society, in which it lives, disturb the social- humanitarian problems of its environment.

    Robesp'er is usually firm in its judgments. It is confident, that reasonable cannot be poor, "knowledge will save peace". Robesp'er - specialist not so much in the expansion of human knowledge, as on their deepening. Constantly it find in retrieval for new information, attention on the authenticity of information sources is focused. If it is necessary to learn something important, then it prefers not to question familiar, but to turn to the reference book, the book, the timetable and the like fears to use doubtful information. "foresight created me for the quiet office work" (Thomas Jefferson). Contact with the book for it sometimes is more preferable than contact with the friends.

    Block Of ego*2-ya position * creative function * the "intuition of possibilities"
    Coming out as the creator of the project of absolute validity and the creator of the theory of objective truth, Robesp'er in each concrete situation searches for and find possibilities for the implementation of its logical program. It is possible to create the society of ideally valid system, if... Further is erected the project of the conditions, which must be artificially created in the society and to which it is necessary to pull each of its members. The logical program Of robesp'era always realizes by means of the search for the possibilities, which adapt the specific existing conditions to a certain abstract project.

    Generating its social ideas, Robesp'er is abstracted from the particular circumstances, considering that it is possible to change them and to adapt. As a result its idealized theories encounter the real contradictions of specific social conditions and frequently they realize in that distorted, sometimes and distorted form (if generally they realize). The social ideas Of robesp'era better and the more successfully realize the weaker the contradiction between its theory and conditions actually existing in the society. History shows: than higher level of the mother

    Alni welfare of the society, the more easily are inoculated in it the ideas of universal (robesp'erovskogo) equality and validity (as an example it is possible to compare "robesp'erovskiy socialism" of the times of great French revolution and period of "war Communism" in Russia with socialism, accepted in modern Sweden, which today can be considered the model of the realization of robesp'erovskoy social theory) the logical program Of robesp'era more successfully realizes, the more successfully goes the search for possibilities in each concrete situation that it is reached because of flexibility and manipulativeness of the robesp'erovskoy "intuition of possibilities", which creatively uses such "tools" as the "method of individual approach" and the "method of the levelling off of the possibilities", which are reduced to the coordination of individual possibilities.

    Weak pulls to the strong, "the latter yes will first be", "who was anyone, that will become all". However, the possibilities of strong, in turn, are limited so, that they become accessible to weak. As a result of this coordination the society is converted into the social system, with which "by magnificent color blooms the mediocrity".

    There are no clearly expressed contradictions, but they are rare and the clearly expressed individualities Of robesp'er it coordinates possibilities in its surrounding society always relative to her own idea about the "validity" and "objective truth". In view of this reason both these concepts acquire deeply subjective painting. Thus, one representative of this type considers it necessary to give to his children the broad education (not worse than in others) and thus to grant to them the sufficiency of the possibilities to find its place in the life. Another will calculate for itself by normal to ensure each adult member of its family with personal automobile, but the expensive broad education for its children will consider as prohibitive luxury, on top of that it will condemn the neighbor, which expends last money on the aesthetical training.

    In each of the representatives of this type its subjective idea about the "standard" and about the "luxury", that was formed under the effect of the obtained training and prevailing mental'nosti, relative to which he coordinates the distribution of possibilities (and the distribution of material goods) both for itself and for its environment. "person himself to bring up is obliged" - to the development of the personal abilities Of robesp'ery usually is paid sufficiently serious attention, but, as a rule, they always try this to make taking into account the real possibilities of applying the individual abilities. For example, if adult person is trained for a new profession to any "practical" specialty, this Robesp'er only greets. But if man at the ripe age expends last money on his personal instruction in music or in drawing, this behavior it will seem, putting it mildly, in frivolous.

    Usually Robesp'er sufficiently accurately evaluates objective conditions in each concrete situation, just as it knows how to estimate the individual possibilities of man. It knows how to check objective and subjective chances, on the basis of the estimation of situation, he always knows, to whom which "shines", also, with what conditions.

    Wonderfully it knows how to estimate its own possibilities. If there are no suitable conditions for applying its abilities and there are no possibility to influence these conditions (revolutions soon it will not foresee), Robesp'er it awaits more favorable circumstances, or it attempts to adapt its subjective possibilities to the already existing objective conditions. In any event, never make possible for themselves the whining because of their own neudachlivosti, although the stranger, not insured, in his opinion, to vezuchesti completely can envy. It can analyze the experience of its own failures, but he tries not to recognize them opened. (quality, characteristic of many intuitam. Its sense consists in not dragging after itself the load of previous failures, this interfere withs future success, it understates the self-appraisal of man, "kompleksuyet" it.)

    To its failures and vital confusions it knows how to relate "philosophically". A representative of this type usually considers that besides already known conditions and circumstances, besides the visible regularities, in the world there are concealed, invisible laws, which influence the real motion of events and components with the visible regularities single whole. Robesp'er knows how after the separate facts to see general regularities.

    Block Of superego*e-ya position * normative function * the "ethics of relations"
    In the contact Of robesp'er sufficiently responsive, polite and benevolent person. He tries to be correct and civil with all without the exception. It sees in this the ethical standard, required for itself and for all "tries no one from not preventing and not creating additional problems. It protects both its and strange rights.

    It fences off from the inconvenient relations. Pleasant, intellectually meaningful solitude prefers to unpleasant contact. In the contact it is simple, it does not love conditionalities and ceremonies. If man to it nesimpatichen, does not consider necessary this to hide. To suffer it not can the forced contact, the "visits of politeness": for this it too values its time and sincere forces. It does not love, when its friendships by force are solicited.

    It is very receptive to any manifestation of falsity and hypocrisy (this it calculates he logically and feels intuitively) - with such people is very cold, immediately is established distant distance. It is very retentive to the offence, to any manifestation of tactlessness and injustice with respect to itself and by others. To form its own ethical relations To robesp'eru is sufficiently difficult.

    It is difficult to be dismantled at the essence of ethical situation over the fact that the normative ethics of behavior prescribes. Concept "in it fairly often ethically" substitutes by concept "correctly", in consequence of which, fighting for the "valid ethics", it frequently falls into extremely unethical situation. For example, not in whom it causes doubts, which "to reproach by the piece of bread" is immoral, but indeed this it is possible to consider and as the attempt to restore validity. (why to give to someone the possibility on itself to parasitize?!)

    Robesp'er frequently attempts to place equal sign between these two concepts, being abstracted from such "ethical conditions" as personal right to the good service, for which it is possible to expect reciprocal services, but it is not possible to require them. Raising "objective validity" into the standard of ethics, Robesp'er is abstracted from the ethical rights, but it insists on the fulfillment of ethical obligations.

    Good service, in its understanding, is obligated to be respectively voznagrazhdena, otherwise this will be incorrectly. (for example, one of the representatives of this type, which works at the small particular enterprise, allegedly on behalf of all employees, required so that the holiday bonus would be distributed not in the form of small and cheap gifts, but in the form of solid money rewards, as is done in the important state companies: "than we are worse than others? Why others to the holidays obtain money rewards, and we - caramel and domestic pastry?! Perhaps this of valid)

    Of robesp'eru not to characteristically allow no ethical concessions, if with respect to it, it is equal to someone to other, they enter incorrectly. But if for it validity under the conditions for its blatant violation is not succeeded in restoring with entire effort, it will try to leave the situation with the losses smallest for itself: in certain cases itself compensates damage - arbitrarily takes away that, on that, as it seems it, it has the right ("jungle there are jungle").

    If for very it is impossible to take "compensation", it can openly require the compensation of loss, since under no circumstances it does not desire it to suffer. For this very reason in Robesp'era the concepts of material and moral damage frequently substitute one by another. Example: students arranged party to "vskladchinu". Girl -Robesp6er estimated the appetite of her comrades and, after feeling herself materially (and morally) shared unfairly, it asked to compensate by it "over-payment" into the general contribution on the basis of the fact that alcoholic beverages it does not use, and meat and sweet it does not eat generally. As a result they advanced girl from the company, she so not understanding, for which. Of course etichnost' Of robesp'era in many respects depends on mental'nosti, on the obtained training and on those ethical values, to which it is psychologically oriented.

    But it is also oriented to the ethics of its duala of Hugo, which exactly is based on the principles of ethical validity (since it is calculated for the perception by its Robesp'erom), and first of all is checked etichnost' in the distribution of possibilities, being that allotted by equal rights it is not possible to misuse by unequal possibilities - roughly speaking: the one who can eat rapidly, is obligated to consider the possibilities of that, who eats slowly. Otherwise the society begins to live according to the law of "jungle".

    Robesp'er never will be allowed themselves first to abuse by their own possibilities - this contradicts its logical program. Robesp'er considers unethical abuse not only of individual possibilities, but also by individual rights, even if they, it would seem, were distributed equally correctly for all: "for us it was necessary to change apartment because of this musical semeyki! Is certain, their this right to play from the morning to the evening, but we also want to live quietly!.. For our child perhaps it is not necessary to fill up in time?!"

    One should note to the honor Of robesp'era: solving its problems, it is always considered rights and conveniences in those surrounding. On the basis of the ethical considerations, Robesp'er is checked the valid (equal) distribution of material goods for all members of society without the exception. For example, if in its family receiving children bring up, they are allotted exactly by the same rights and responsibilities, as its own of ("... we with the sister arranged picnic for the children: they divided entire food into an equal quantity - to each it was reached on two cutlets even to one patty. So here, it seemed my nephew of one patty little and it required additive, on top of that and hysterics rolled!..")

    In any ethical situation Of robesp'er it rests on the principles, built on the mutual respect, relationship and the commensuration of its own rights with rights and possibilities of those surrounding. And for this very reason the best partner for Robesp'era is his dual of Hugo, whose ethics of relations is based on the same ethical principles. For this very reason Hugo - only of all sotsiotipov-etikov, to whom robesp'er can completely entrust, with whom he does not feel itself shared unfairly, pinched in the rights or by incorrectly obizhennym. With the representatives of other psychological types Of robesp'er does not find complete mutual understanding.

    Block Of superego*ya-ya Position * Mobilization Function * "VOLITIONAL SENSORIKA"
    Robesp'er is intolerant to any manifestation of violence and arbitrariness, since it considers as the their original cause of injustice and, consequently, also by the original cause of all misfortunes.

    The intolerant enemy of the wrong, in his opinion, based on the violence dictatorships Of robesp'er everywhere spreads the "dictatorship of validity", based on the training the "ethical valid" of self-consciousness.

    Violence is applied only to those, who cannot bring up in itself such ethical quality, i.e., only with respect to the "predators". Robesp'er considers that the volitional action is justifiable, if it is correct. Abuse of force, by authority, by the influence Of robesp'er condemns. It does not suffer the arm-twisting, authoritarian behavior, command tone. It resists any attempt at the forced influence - and volitional, and ethical.

    It is very critical to the methods of rough and cheap action. Robesp'era it is not possible to subordinate to volitional pressure. Any attempt to press on it inevitably leads to the conflict. It does not yield to the arm-twisting even when this threatens its life. It will not make it possible to humble itself, it will not make it possible "to take itself as the throat" - better it will die. It will not make it possible to pinch itself in the rights - it immediately demonstratively resists this (its kind preventive measure).

    Robesp'er not only does not suffer violence - he constantly tries to fence itself from the forced action. Therefore the measure of its protection usually considerably exceeds the measure for action on it. For example, Robesp'er can refuse to the nearest relative in the single, trifling service only from the assumption that such services can enter into relation system and then his pliability becomes for all the standard of behavior, and this is already incorrect with respect to it. Protection of its territorial rights for Robesp'era also very most important question.

    Robesp'er is agreeable to appear as as desired to inhospitable, impolite and discourteous, but it will not allow stranger to enter into its house by "trunk forward". It fears neproshenykh visitors, since they steal its time, its place, they encroach on its personal freedom.

    Robesp'er feels itself defenseless in the situation of sudden volitional pressure. In this case it for itself frequently unexpectedly manifests the "unpardonable pliability", which it subsequently analyzes, trying to hence be farsighted and not to repeat similar errors.

    Robesp'er fears tax occasion for the volitional action on itself; therefore sometimes it attempts to appear by man without the weaknesses ("iron Felix"). It does not love, when they play on its weaknesses. Suffer whimperers it cannot, it does not make it possible to pity itself (it does not love cheap ethical it is special effect). Never it makes possible for itself to manifest force with respect to the weak.

    He tries to influence in a word and by persuasion. Physical punishment adapts by it as the most extreme measure, Robesp'eru it is difficult to tell in order tone, imperious intonations are not characteristic of it, although when it will flare up, there is rezkovat. It does not quail before the authorities, it is held with the merit, it does not fawn. ("to serve it is glad, to wait nauseatingly".) If by it they increase voice, seemingly immediately "it is disconnected". Impression frequently is created, that it even does not react to the charges presented to it.

    It demonstratively ignores importunate councils and moralizations, especially it fears and has no special liking those, which always "know, how it is must". To robesp'eru it is very difficult to insist on its, it is difficult to be energetic - he too knows well that this is not its method. It is always unpleasant to demonstrate its authority, will, resoluteness. To be pushy for itself does not make possible never and greatly it loves this quality in others. Usually experiences awkwardness every time that its volitional qualities are discussed by outside people.

    As a rule, he tries to avoid conversations on this theme. Fight for its rights requires of Robesp'era of a constant overvoltage of forces, what in turn frequently leads it to the physical overstrain - state, which to it is very unpleasant and which he tries not to allow. The regime of its loads is regulated: he tries to calculate his forces and possibilities, it resists overloads, feeling the decline of forces, he tries to in proper time rest (instinct of self-preservation).

    Robesp'er resists even the oversaturated entertaining program. In the case, when the partner Of robesp'era becomes his dual of Hugo, problem of overloads, overvoltage, volitional pressure, volitional protection they are solved by very naturally: Hugo charges Robesp'era by his energy, his activity, constantly is supported in it emotional and physical tone. It encourages it, it does not make possible for it to become limp. The very flexible regime of physical and emotional loads assigns to it, is supported in it the state of optimum activity and excitation. Hugo - only, who can very accurately and is natural to excite the activity Of robesp'era, only, who can him easily move, to provoke, to tease and to entertain can easily weaken, it is easy to quiet, it can create it optimum conditions for valuable work and leisure.

    Protecting the interests Of robesp'era, defending its ideas and views, Hugo is capable with the ease to overcome, it would seem, insurmountable difficulties themselves. When Hugo and Robesp'er defend the interests of validity, for them simply there does not exist obstacles and obstacles. As history shows, the ideas Of robesp'era easily conquer popularity with the support of the volitional pressure of Hugo

    Block SUPERID * the 5th Position * Suggestive Function * The "ethics Of emotions"
    Of robesp'eru to characteristically subordinate its emotions to reason. Frequently it produces the impression of man of solid, not bent, reasonable and emphasized restrained. Greatly it does not love the state of emotional overvoltage. It heavily transfers quarrels, hysterics, scandals - this costs it the heavy expense of forces.

    In the initial stage of relations Of robesp'eru to characteristically soblyudat' the distant distance, which is decreased only if it is convinced of the agreement of the ethical principles of partner with his own persuasions. If information does not seem it sufficiently convincing, it is inclined to experience the feelings of its partner

    It does entrust to that person, who not only does express to it his sympathy, but also does manifest the concern about it it does love worrying it does worry loving Robesp'er it does not love to explain relation - why? He so knows, as men it will enter into the following minute (good intuition), he always feels, as to it they relate, on that emotional indicator, which is placed in its subconsciousness and is disposed to the emotional regime of its duala of Hugo the emotions, which do not maintain testing by his "indicator", they are received as inadequate they seem either exaggerated or insufficiently expressed, either by too demonstrative or insincere or false.

    Sometimes Robesp'er produces the deceptive impression of man of insensible and not capable of the compassion. In reality it is capable to be anxious even to unfamiliar and completely outside person, although it can and to the member of its family refuse in the aid, if it sees that this aid estimates not in the manner that it is must (for example as the concession, dictated by weakness), or it is used not in the manner that it is must (for example for the purchase of the objects of luxury)

    It is connected very carefully to the mood of those surrounding. In the company of malosimpatichnykh to it people it is held bound and locked. Only falling into the situation of unconstrained merriment, sincere cordiality, sincere heat and cosiness, begin "to thaw", it weakens, is charged by overall mood, he becomes charming and interesting collocutor. It begins to literally sparkle by merriment, it smiles by the obayatel'neyshey, "solar" smile, thinly elegant it jokes, with the pleasure it entertains company by any amusing histories, which it usually is desirable to memorize and then still someone to retell.

    Being in the state of emotional lift, Robesp'er very rapidly conquers sympathies, with the ease he becomes the soul of company and is capable any evening to make unforgettable. External coldness and the severity Of robesp'era - this not is more than the shielding shell of its easily ranimoy soul. And best anything this understands precisely dual Of robesp'era - Hugo. The unapproachable restraint Of robesp'era not only excites the curiosity of Hugo (who frequently finds pleasure in overcoming of, it would seem, the insurmountable difficulties). It serves its kind as "touchstone" for the search of the psychologically compatible partner.

    In order to light these external "ices", is required the enormous sincere heat-, expressed in the emotional flow of the specific quality and nature. With the characteristic of it sincere flame and the energy of Hugo it storms this "unapproachable stronghold" so that entire robesp'erovskaya "coldness" is scattered as Hugo's smoke, although it does not hold in control itself in the manifestation of emotions, nevertheless makes this sufficiently tactfully (Robesp'er it does not allow violence above itself). Hugo manifests his emotions very aesthetically, is intelligent, with the taste, s. by a constant concern about feelings and about conveniences in its partner. Hugo - only of all types of "etikov-sensorikov", capable of emotionally acting on Robesp'era very optimally. Only in the society of Hugo Robesp'er feels itself by properly calm, protected. Only it can properly be weakened next to it. Block

    SUPERID * the 6th Position * Activation Function * "sensorika Of sensations"
    To robesp'eru it is very important to feel a constant concern from the side of partner. In its understanding to love - means to worry. If partner does not manifest proper (in the opinion Of robesp'era) attention to his sensations, conveniences and comfort, to feelings of this partner Of robesp'er he does not believe. The greater the concern and it obtains guardianships, the with larger the readiness it fulfills the desires of its partner, the more actively it participates in the solution of its problems.

    Robesp'era extremely irritates the need for for very being occupied by the organization of way of life, comfort, cosiness - this distracts it from the more important, more creative work. In the everyday trifles it is yielding, unpretentious, he tries not to investigate too deeply the domestic matters. Woman -Robesp6er (even if it only housewife) also is considered domestic work the matter of secondary importance.

    The need for maintaining order at its proper level frequently irritates: it always seems it that it expends on this too many forces and time, furthermore, by it it frequently seems wrong to take to itself all concerns on the house - let others also help. Robesp'er can with the pleasure be occupied by the domestic matters when they do not prevent it from thinking.

    Among the representatives of this type there are many needle women and kulinarok, who well manage their trade at that level, when the automatic fulfillment of work does not bring special damage to its quality: "hands work, and head thinks its thought". Mistress -Robesp6er can the whole day carry out some simple automation and he will not feel herself tired.

    Holiday table is prepared with the pleasure, although in guests invites only limited circle of the closest people. Representatives of this type dress inconspicuously, frequently conservative by the style, in the clothing prefer the neutral and restrained tones. "nebroskost'" of the clothing Of robesp'era sometimes passes into the irritating lackluster.

    Like all intuity, they frequently use not the most successful combination it is color (gray with the dim- the orange, gray with the marshy- the green and so forth.) Robesp'er completely changes, when with its cloakroom it begins to be occupied by Hugo: clothing is selected so that by very to advantageously emphasize its natural attractiveness. Without the aesthetical guardianship by Hugo Of robesp'er it frequently appears by such unprepossessing "gray mouse".

    The healthy means of life for Robesp'era not end in itself, but an indispensable condition grow prettier fitness for work. If much to work and not to get tired is capable, means health in the order and something about this much to think. It prefers so that partner would worry about its health, since it is subconsiously disposed to sensoriku of the sensations of its duala of Hugo, for which the concern about the health of its close ones - matter of paramount importance.

    Block ID * the 7th position * observant function * "business logic"
    The ideas of universal equality and validity Of robesp'er it transfers also into the sphere of business relations. Therefore the region of its observations first of all concerns questions of the valid distribution of material goods and valid production relations. Questions of the observance of mutual commitments, questions of the validity of working agreements, the protection of the rights of works, valid working conditions - precisely this disturbs and interests it first of all.

    Robesp'er in the number of those, who independent of personal conditions and conveniences will always defend the rights of the association. Specifically, he on the private venture will require of the employer of an improvement in the working conditions and increasing the wages for all members of the association with respect to a change in the price index and to an increase in productivity of labor. It will attain the valid distribution of the standards of production, it will require the valid payment of "hospital" and "tempering". The protection of human rights for Robesp'era has paramount significance.

    But in certain cases, when Robesp'er finally is convinced, that by honest methods to it its rights not to protect, it begins to feel itself its kind robin with buzz and makes possible for itself to otvoyevyvat' the being been due to it goods by not completely legal and not completely honest methods. (moreover in this Robesp'eru it helps its strong intuition of time.) Example: one of the representatives of this type, after despairing to defend its rights, forced itself to discharge precisely in such time, when according to the law its no one had a right to dismiss, as a result of which for firm it was necessary to pay off compensation in the amount of its 1.5-year wage to it.

    Leading the association, Robesp'er lays emphasis on training of the creative initiative of employees and to the disclosure of their abilities. Thoroughly analyzes the level of qualification, period, work experience, formation. He knows, from whom, what level of work to require, and requires in accordance with the individual abilities. He tries to encourage and to use any initiative in the interests of entire association. The most rational method of fulfilling the work rapidly finds and it willingly shares by its experience with those surrounding.

    Exchange of experience and professional mutual aid considers the standard of relations in the association. Its production proposal no one it ties, but frequently it speaks out on this theme. The absence of mutual understanding and mutual aid in the association sharply condemns. He always tries to maintain flat and correct relations with the colleagues. It considers that the psychological climate in the association must not adversely affect its fitness for work. For a good work it praises rarely. Much does not speak about good, is considered this by itself being understood. Attention to the deficiencies and unresolved problems frequently are turned. Reporting for the accomplished work, he does not forget to mention about the positive results.

    It is very methodical, in everything he tries to find system - it considers as the its indispensable condition for the successful fulfillment of work. In the work it is characterized by accuracy, it scrupulously studies details. Simply so it entrusts no one, are checked both itself and partners. To check its very it is usually superfluous. Sequential and persistent. Any matter attempts to bring to the end, it does not love to throw on the middle.

    It does not suffer, when with one unfinished work they charge another to it. Several matters cannot conduct in parallel. The intermediate result of its work for the universal consideration does not love to carry. It knows how to calculate the time of the fulfillment of its work. It always manages it to make to the period assigned.

    It resists the overstated standards of day production. (it them simply it ignores.) He tries to take such number of work, which will be able without the overvoltage to carry out toward the end of workday from the work it does not shirk, its operating time values and he uses very efficiently and rationally, but to exploit themselves does not make it possible and will not make it possible to stiffen to themselves working conditions.

    Block ID * the eighth position * demonstrative function * the "intuition of time"
    The time Of robesp'era belongs to its intellectual creation. Therefore it greatly values its and strange time. It is punctual and greatly values punctuality in others. Its day prudently and farsightedly is planned. Its plans most frequently realize precisely in the manner that it intends them. It does not love hurry. Time feels and knows how reasonably to distribute it.

    It does not love fuss, it lives in the optimum vital rhythm. In its motions this dimensionality and this rational automatism are observed, that, it would seem, working without hurrying, it it manages to make is much. Living according to the principle "pospeshay slowly", Robesp'er everywhere joins in singing and much manages.

    Its apparent sluggishness is deeply rational and it most frequently occurs the most optimum rate. Because of this quality Of robesp'er it frees its duala of Hugo from the superfluous stress, hurries and fusses, assign to it the optimum rhythm of actions, optimum time behavior. And it weakens thus and calms it. Robesp'er knows how to profitably use for itself the possibilities, which to it one or other period or another of time allows. For example, a period of the forced unemployment it can use to an increase in the qualification, to the acquisition of another profession, to the study of foreign languages or the juridical self-education.

    Robesp'er greatly values its free time. For it this always gift to itself. And it prefers to use it to that, to that earlier it did not have enough time: to its creative enthusiasm, to the self-education, to leisure, to the pleasant and intellectually saturated leisure. To take away in Robesp'era its free time nevertheless, what to deprive of this its gift. Hugo, oriented to the intuition of the time Of robesp'era, knows how to value strange time and knows how to protect his.

    It sees well historical legitimacies in the life of society, sees the "connection of times". For Robesp'era to characteristically focus attention on the negative tendencies in its surrounding reality. With the intuitive insight Of robesp'er characteristic of it it is capable to in proper time understand and to deeply analyze the nascent social problems. It is capable to in proper time warn society against them and to propose the most optimal solutions of these problems.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Thanks Expat


    Good service, in its understanding, is obligated to be respectively voznagrazhdena, otherwise this will be incorrectly. (for example, one of the representatives of this type, which works at the small particular enterprise, allegedly on behalf of all employees, required so that the holiday bonus would be distributed not in the form of small and cheap gifts, but in the form of solid money rewards, as is done in the important state companies: "than we are worse than others? Why others to the holidays obtain money rewards, and we - caramel and domestic pastry?! Perhaps this of valid)
    It was unsettling for my enterprise (alpha quadra) to have "caramel and domestic pastry" (lack of Strati profiles) when the other enterprises (other quadras) had "solid money rewards" (Strati profiles)
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Logical-intuitive introvert
    (rational)
    INTj

    © Text: I.Weisband, Working Materials, 1986.
    © Portraits: Ye.Filatova, Personality in the Mirror of Socionics, 2001.
    © Translated by Dmitri Lytov, edited by Lev Kamensky, 2002.

    "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.” -
    Thomas Jefferson.

    Maximilian Robespierre - the leader of the Great French Revolution (1789 - 1794).

    1. "I think therefore I am". He is a man of developed logical faculty, a strong capability for analysis. He knows how to dig to the essence of things, to reveal their internal structure. "Providence has created myself for quiet study work, to which it dedicated all the rapture of my soul", – said Thomas Jefferson, during whose presidency the territory of the US has grown nearly double. He considers all situations of life from the logical viewpoint.

    2. "Justice is my trade". This is a type of a revolutionary or a political conspirator. In a conflict situation he usually organizes a committee to punish the offender. He believes that everything in the world must be logical and consequently just. He is capable of neglecting his own profit and safety when defending the offended. He sets for himself very high requirements. Unless somebody else takes care of him, he can easily drive himself to starvation. Garibaldi, Robespierre, Dzierzhynski, Jefferson are revolutionaries who devoted themselves to an idea.

    3. Ascetic. He appears extremely uncompromising, often looks down with a piercing look from under his philosopher’s forehead. He toughens himself, training for the cold, starvation, losses and disapproval of others. The only aspect where he willingly concedes to his partner is the issue of dressing, taste and routine chores. The necessity to be responsible for these things irritates him. Usually he even does not notice the quality of his clothing. He does not tolerate orders. His dual The Bonvivant, as if being aware of that, involves him into work not by direct orders but begins to fuss about, to make a lot of unnecessary movements – then The Analyst gets involved, and the work goes rapidly, logically and soundly. He himself does not show much initiative, is reclusive and silent.

    4. Somewhat tender and capricious. His self-sacrifice in defending justice becomes especially mind-boggling, if one knows that he feels irritated by everything that disturbs silence and the measured way of his life. He is very concerned about living healthy. Thusly Rene Descartes "considered health as the principal of mortal goods second to the Truth". In his youth he often tends to a cheerful lifestyle with many friends, games of chance, booze. Later he comes to the conclusion that all those things are something other than what he really needs. He is not very ambitious but he does not tolerate when others get ahead of him in their career, out of the same feeling of justice. He finds himself in an especially hard situation when having to obey a boss whom he does not respect.

    5. "He led a happy life who sheltered himself well". He is very secretive, dislikes uninvited visitors. He sharply reacts to reprimands, but sometimes hides his irritation under an artificial smile.

    Your dual (psychologically complementary type): Hugo, The Bonvivant (ethical-sensory extravert).

    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Copied this from here :
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...52835d47995bd0

    Quote Originally Posted by snowyc
    The following is a functional analysis of The Analyst that i've put together with descriptions and personal experience. It's a work in progress, any critique will be appreciated.

    1. Base (Intellectual) Function: Introverted Thinking (Ti)

    “High-bandwidth understanding”

    Introverted Thinking leads you to relate whatever you are doing to some larger principles that you have identified. Hence, Ti is like having some kind of book in your head, which describes the inner workings of things. When interacting with reality, you are constantly writing and re-writing your book. To deal with anything, you have to be able to understand in terms of the observations in your book. Whenever you are dealing with any new system, you start writing a new chapter on it in order to attain complete understanding of it. A system could be anything from seeking to understand “the dating game” to “office politics”.

    This approach may seem very cumbersome from an extraverted standpoint. You don't really need to understand how a bicycle works in order to ride one. You don't have to actually understand a subject in school if you simply cram and memorize. You don't have to understand computers to check your email. Yet Ti leads you to desire complete understanding of whatever you are doing, instead of looking up the correct procedure, or asking your friends for help, or kicking it when it's not working. With Ti, you don't simply try to understand a system well enough to manipulate it. You try to become such an expert on how it works that you could write a book about it if you had to, even if your expertise is unusable or useless to everybody (sometimes even to yourself). This functional analysis in itself is a great example of this.

    Hence, Ti is a kind of high-bandwidth understanding, because it leads you to try to understand the entire causal, aesthetic, or logical mechanism of any system of interest. This kind of understanding takes much more time and effort to develop, but it is more flexible once attained, because it allows you to deal with aspects of reality that cannot be described through social norms or sets of discrete procedures.

    2. Creative Function: Extroverted Intuition (Ne)

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Einstein

    Extroverted Intuition helps produce the understandings of the Ti function where all your personal theories are tested out in the real world in a playful naďve way. For example, you walk into an electrical store and ask to check out they’re latest model video camera and the first thing you do is play with it in order to build a new updated understanding required by the Ti function. In this sense, you see how it is necessary to learn through active hands on self discovery. In essence, the style of learning follows the principles of Constructivism which focuses on actively constructing knowledge as opposed to a traditional education that expects passive absorption of knowledge. One flaw with this function is the arrogance produced that say you won’t read the instructions before setting up a piece of equipment magically thinking you know it already due to previous Ti knowledge and experimental Ne. In most cases this results in a quicker understanding of something that has to be learnt but should be balance with good old instructional learning.

    Let’s take ‘the dating game’ as another example of, in this case, figuring out a social ‘system’. The dominant Ti function dictates that the understanding of women and interaction of different female types must be studied in order to be understood. It would arguably be unhealthy to study something theoretically indefinitely without gathering evidence. This is where the Ne function comes in. This is perhaps the reason why an INTj usually socialises when there’s a purpose in it even if that purpose is mere observation to gather visual evidence that helps further their theoretical understanding. There couldn’t be anything more torturous then the constant nagging from extroverted friends to go out with them which for the INTj becomes a compromise they’ll make to further their research i.e. making the best of a situation even when they blatantly can’t tolerate it hence their surface conformism. If they want observation, they’ll go to a bar or club. If they want interaction, they’ll try speed-dating. It’s not in their nature to enjoy themselves like the subcultures expect.

    Hence, Ne as a creative function serves as a kind of prompt to the Ti that ‘the world is my oyster’ for research and learning. If not for the Ne, the INTj would probably never go out and thus fail to notice the trends and behaviours they so desperately need for their constant ever-growing understanding of the world around them.

    3. Role Function: Introverted Feeling (Fi)

    “A modest ethical man”

    Introverted Feeling is one half of the superego which acts as the first element of conscience behind the driving ego functions above. Inner feelings don't get out much but lend its influence on behalf of causes which are good, worthy and humane. We may catch a glimpse of it in the unspoken attitude of good will, or the gracious smile or nod.

    Hence, Fi as a role function defines the man behind the cold rational mask. Even behind a mind with relentless analysis and knowledge seeking, there is a modest person quietly waiting to express himself.

    4. Place of Least Resistance (Shyness): Extroverted Sensing (Se)

    “A shy spot for hedonism”

    Extroverted Sensing as the PoLR is the other half of the superego conscience that is afraid to come out or be provoked. As the producing function for the role function Fi, rest assured that when the special time comes, those inner feelings will be expressed through the senses. For example, a kiss or touch for a loved one will usually be a direct translation of their inner feelings to an outward physical expression that they feel liberated but exhausted for showing.

    When you are oriented in the Se way, you live completely in the moment. You respond now to what is happening now. What happens later, you'll deal with later. What's happened in the past is irrelevant.

    Like a habit, the analyst’s life is dominated by understanding theory and gathering evidence. He doesn’t know well how to balance work and play and can easily lead himself to starvation.

    Life for the analyst is ascetic where he has refrained from sensual pleasures usually by fear and out of their hidden agenda to be healthy. This may explain the analyst’s closely guarded fear of intimacy which is why they are more love driven looking for that very special lady who may take a lifetime to find unless they’ll willing to throw caution to the wind and accept the challenge of the dating game. The benefits of course could be that some day they may have such a high understanding of the dating process that they end up writing a best selling book on the subject or create a better system of dating based on their (limited) Se experiences.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Thanks for posting SnowyC's bit there, I never saw it before.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    In the INFj Strati.. thread, they've started a step-by-step analysis of the profile, and put them together...Maybe that's a good idea for here too? It help remove the vagueness of the text, and each line could be attributed to a particular 'Yes, I do that...but only when...) statement. I personally can't be bothered to do it anytime soon .
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Such clarifications within the text would be great.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    There isn't much vagueness for me, generally.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    There isn't much vagueness for me, generally.
    That is to say, clarification in the form of sentence structure, word choice, and form. Also, each part of it could be expanded upon using personal experience or interpretation of the texts.
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    The INTj manifesto (under construction)

    :
    ''validity - my craft.''
    ''Those who conduct unrighteous life, disrupt the principles of validity.''
    ''It is deeply democratic on the nature, since democracy as the possibility of selection is understood.''
    ''Only a democratic society have the right to require of the man full responsibility for his behavior, when each member of society obtains the complete right of freedom of choice for his actions.''
    ''It considers that discipline in the society must be based not on the fear, but on the conscience. Therefore the punishment of "law-breaker" considers as training his conscience, i.e. - for its own good. Robespierre usually entertains idea itself that any punishment only then acts effectively, when man realizes his fault.''
    Descartes: ''I think, therefore I am.''
    Hegel: ''The rational alone is real.''
    ''Robespierre from nature is allotted by strongly developed logic and capabilities for analytical thinking it loves to discuss about different models, structures, diagrams and classifications. In any phenomena it searches for and finds the original causes of the existing contradictions and illogicalities.''
    ''All everyday and ethical situations are examined from the point of view of logic. Moreover, it usually rejects excess (in his opinion) details, focusing larger attention on general regularities "global logic"). A feeling of the protection of validity is highly developed.''
    ''Assuming for itself any idea, Robespierre becomes its sequential supporter and it serves as it in a most fanatic manner: it subordinates all its thoughts and actions to this idea, subordinates to it entire its means of life.''
    ''Contact with the book for it sometimes is more preferable than contact with the friends.''
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Sub...I wouldn't really be proud of counting Hegel in, though, what do you think?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    How do you mean? I thought the quote was relevant, although I put the English version rather than the Russianification from the original (which was 'the truth - the whole'.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    It is very receptive to any manifestation of falsity and hypocrisy (this it calculates he logically and feels intuitively) - with such people is very cold, immediately is established distant distance. It is very retentive to the offence, to any manifestation of tactlessness and injustice with respect to itself and by others. To form its own ethical relations To robesp'eru is sufficiently difficult.
    "but disguise of every sort is my abhorrence" (5:25)

    I swear upon the alter of God, eternal hostility to every form of tyranny
    over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPbxgaxNoCM[/youtube]
    Both seem MBTI INTJ, especially the first one
    The second one perhaps comes off as more INTj
    The original/first one may come off as ISTj

    In the later version - Darcy's twitch at the mention of Mr Wickham (1:20)
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    1. Base (Intellectual) Function: Introverted Thinking (Ti)

    “High-bandwidth understanding”

    Introverted Thinking leads you to relate whatever you are doing to some larger principles that you have identified. Hence, Ti is like having some kind of book in your head, which describes the inner workings of things. When interacting with reality, you are constantly writing and re-writing your book. To deal with anything, you have to be able to understand in terms of the observations in your book. Whenever you are dealing with any new system, you start writing a new chapter on it in order to attain complete understanding of it. A system could be anything from seeking to understand “the dating game” to “office politics”.

    This approach may seem very cumbersome from an extraverted standpoint. You don't really need to understand how a bicycle works in order to ride one. You don't have to actually understand a subject in school if you simply cram and memorize. You don't have to understand computers to check your email. Yet Ti leads you to desire complete understanding of whatever you are doing, instead of looking up the correct procedure, or asking your friends for help, or kicking it when it's not working. With Ti, you don't simply try to understand a system well enough to manipulate it. You try to become such an expert on how it works that you could write a book about it if you had to, even if your expertise is unusable or useless to everybody (sometimes even to yourself). This functional analysis in itself is a great example of this.

    Hence, Ti is a kind of high-bandwidth understanding, because it leads you to try to understand the entire causal, aesthetic, or logical mechanism of any system of interest. This kind of understanding takes much more time and effort to develop, but it is more flexible once attained, because it allows you to deal with aspects of reality that cannot be described through social norms or sets of discrete procedures.

    2. Creative Function: Extroverted Intuition (Ne)

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." Einstein

    Extroverted Intuition helps produce the understandings of the Ti function where all your personal theories are tested out in the real world in a playful naďve way. For example, you walk into an electrical store and ask to check out they’re latest model video camera and the first thing you do is play with it in order to build a new updated understanding required by the Ti function. In this sense, you see how it is necessary to learn through active hands on self discovery. In essence, the style of learning follows the principles of Constructivism which focuses on actively constructing knowledge as opposed to a traditional education that expects passive absorption of knowledge. One flaw with this function is the arrogance produced that say you won’t read the instructions before setting up a piece of equipment magically thinking you know it already due to previous Ti knowledge and experimental Ne. In most cases this results in a quicker understanding of something that has to be learnt but should be balance with good old instructional learning.

    Let’s take ‘the dating game’ as another example of, in this case, figuring out a social ‘system’. The dominant Ti function dictates that the understanding of women and interaction of different female types must be studied in order to be understood. It would arguably be unhealthy to study something theoretically indefinitely without gathering evidence. This is where the Ne function comes in. This is perhaps the reason why an INTj usually socialises when there’s a purpose in it even if that purpose is mere observation to gather visual evidence that helps further their theoretical understanding. There couldn’t be anything more torturous then the constant nagging from extroverted friends to go out with them which for the INTj becomes a compromise they’ll make to further their research i.e. making the best of a situation even when they blatantly can’t tolerate it hence their surface conformism. If they want observation, they’ll go to a bar or club. If they want interaction, they’ll try speed-dating. It’s not in their nature to enjoy themselves like the subcultures expect.

    Hence, Ne as a creative function serves as a kind of prompt to the Ti that ‘the world is my oyster’ for research and learning. If not for the Ne, the INTj would probably never go out and thus fail to notice the trends and behaviours they so desperately need for their constant ever-growing understanding of the world around them.
    I found these two sections to be incredibly interesting, and I wonder how suited they would be for additions to the Wikisocion.
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    Interesting that you find them interesting. It would be a good idea to discuss and hopefully clear some things up here.

    1. Base (Intellectual) Function: Introverted Thinking (Ti)

    “High-bandwidth understanding”

    Introverted Thinking leads you to relate whatever you are doing to some larger principles that you have identified. Hence, Ti is like having some kind of book in your head, which describes the inner workings of things. When interacting with reality, you are constantly writing and re-writing your book. To deal with anything, you have to be able to understand in terms of the observations in your book. Whenever you are dealing with any new system, you start writing a new chapter on it in order to attain complete understanding of it. A system could be anything from seeking to understand “the dating game” to “office politics”.
    The above is is an attempt to describe the inner thinking processes of real life ILIs.

    "Ti is like having some kind of book in your head, which describes the inner workings of things. When interacting with reality, you are constantly writing and re-writing your book. (This is revising your view on reality based on information. It is a top-down approach and a Gamma attitude.)

    "Whenever you are dealing with any new system, you start writing a new chapter on it in order to attain complete understanding of it." (Taking in as much information as possible is an irrational attitude, and it is a Serious Gamma, empiricist, -based attitude -- not Alpha.)

    This approach may seem very cumbersome from an extraverted standpoint. You don't really need to understand how a bicycle works in order to ride one. You don't have to actually understand a subject in school if you simply cram and memorize. You don't have to understand computers to check your email. Yet Ti leads you to desire complete understanding of whatever you are doing, instead of looking up the correct procedure, or asking your friends for help, or kicking it when it's not working. With Ti, you don't simply try to understand a system well enough to manipulate it. You try to become such an expert on how it works that you could write a book about it if you had to, even if your expertise is unusable or useless to everybody (sometimes even to yourself). This functional analysis in itself is a great example of this.
    "You try to become such an expert on how it works that you could write a book about it if you had to, even if your expertise is unusable or useless to everybody (sometimes even to yourself)." (Typical ILI attitude, not at all an LII attitude. To become a know-it-all, a person with complete knowledge of the world is much more typical of ILIs than of LIIs.)

    Hence, Ti is a kind of high-bandwidth understanding, because it leads you to try to understand the entire causal, aesthetic, or logical mechanism of any system of interest. This kind of understanding takes much more time and effort to develop, but it is more flexible once attained, because it allows you to deal with aspects of reality that cannot be described through social norms or sets of discrete procedures.
    "Hence, Ti is a kind of high-bandwidth understanding, because it leads you to try to understand the entire causal, aesthetic, or logical mechanism of any system of interest." (The attitude is accepting with creative .)

    "it allows you to deal with aspects of reality that cannot be described through social norms or sets of discrete procedures." (Intuition)

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    dominant types consider information over long periods of time, as it comes to them - its part of their logical process - they hold the views that they consider most logical at any one time.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Interesting that you find them interesting. It would be a good idea to discuss and hopefully clear some things up here.

    The above is is an attempt to describe the inner thinking processes of real life ILIs.

    "Ti is like having some kind of book in your head, which describes the inner workings of things. When interacting with reality, you are constantly writing and re-writing your book. (This is revising your view on reality based on information. It is a top-down approach and a Gamma attitude.)

    "Whenever you are dealing with any new system, you start writing a new chapter on it in order to attain complete understanding of it." (Taking in as much information as possible is an irrational attitude, and it is a Serious Gamma, empiricist, -based attitude -- not Alpha.)

    "You try to become such an expert on how it works that you could write a book about it if you had to, even if your expertise is unusable or useless to everybody (sometimes even to yourself)." (Typical ILI attitude, not at all an LII attitude. To become a know-it-all, a person with complete knowledge of the world is much more typical of ILIs than of LIIs.)

    "Hence, Ti is a kind of high-bandwidth understanding, because it leads you to try to understand the entire causal, aesthetic, or logical mechanism of any system of interest." (The attitude is accepting with creative .)

    "it allows you to deal with aspects of reality that cannot be described through social norms or sets of discrete procedures." (Intuition)
    Just to entertain your idea here for a bit, how then would you rewrite (top-down or whatever method you prefer) the section on in context to the LII?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Just to entertain your idea here for a bit, how then would you rewrite (top-down or whatever method you prefer) the section on in context to the LII?
    Which section? All of the above explanation of "Ti" is taken directly from this site: http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...erted_Thinking and it is of course misleading to call any of it since it is supposed to be based on observations of INTPs (ILIs), whose main function is . Before we start rewriting anything, maybe we should try to pinpoint which parts of this explanation of "Ni" http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Intuition that are most relevant in a description of the leading function of LIIs.

    One important difference that must somehow be included is the one mentioned in that "Ni" description -- the subjective character of , that "[f]or INJs, patterns aren't 'out there' in the world, waiting to be discovered. They're part of us--the way we make sense of the riot of energy and information impinging on our systems." ILIs on the other hand, believe that patterns are objective, that they really are out there, waiting to be discovered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Just to entertain your idea here for a bit, how then would you rewrite (top-down or whatever method you prefer) the section on in context to the LII?
    Which section? All of the above explanation of "Ti" is taken directly from this site: http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...erted_Thinking and it is of course misleading to call any of it since it is supposed to be based on observations of INTPs (ILIs), whose main function is . Before we start rewriting anything, maybe we should try to pinpoint which parts of this explanation of "Ni" http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Intuition that are most relevant in a description of the leading function of LIIs.
    How you choose to do it does not really matter. Just use your top-down "book rewriting" ILI powers to rewrite or determine a proper description of Ti as you see fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    One important difference that must somehow be included is the one mentioned in that "Ni" description -- the subjective character of , that "[f]or INJs, patterns aren't 'out there' in the world, waiting to be discovered. They're part of us--the way we make sense of the riot of energy and information impinging on our systems." ILIs on the other hand, believe that patterns are objective, that they really are out there, waiting to be discovered.
    Well that is because patterns are perceived through the subject. While patterns may exist in an objective nature or universe, they are not by their nature objective or inherently objective; patterns are merely a method or manner of perceiving the objective.

    Also something worth warning you about then is that if you continue to claim that everything under the sun that relates to either the general functions of T and N are somehow just another form of Te and Ni, you will essentially be leaving nothing but rocks and rubble for the properties and characteristics of Ti and Ne. And some of the methods which you use to claim the usage of Ti and Ne for Gamma NTs can easily be reversed as a method of Alpha NT claiming a more proficient use of Ni and Te. So please keep that in mind when constructing your arguments. :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Just use your top-down "book rewriting" ILI powers to rewrite or determine a proper description of Ti as you see fit.
    No. I won't do anything like that until we have something concrete to start with. One of the biggest problems in Socionics is that the descriptions are so misleading. I am still trying to understand how LIIs really think, and it is not that easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Well that is because patterns are perceived through the subject. While patterns may exist in an objective nature or universe, they are not by their nature objective or inherently objective; patterns are merely a method or manner of perceiving the objective.
    Here we go again. We are not making progress, we are just stating our different perspectives over and over again. Since we agree on how we disagree, why can't we try to describe our differences without trying to convince each other that our perspective is the only correct one? We know that we will probably always disagree due to our different brain structures. But how shall be describe our differences in thinking in a "neutral" framework?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Just use your top-down "book rewriting" ILI powers to rewrite or determine a proper description of Ti as you see fit.
    No. I won't do anything like that until we have something concrete to start with. One of the biggest problems in Socionics is that the descriptions are so misleading. I am still trying to understand how LIIs really think, and it is not that easy.
    Then what do you propose? Well I could always dig up a post somewhere in which was one of the few times we agreed about a potential way of understanding LIIs and ILEs.
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