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Thread: ENFj and ESTp: the most competitive types?

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    Default ENFj and ESTp: the most competitive types?

    What do you think? In my observations, ESTps and ENFjs are the most competitive types. It also makes sense theoretically, imo.
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    My experience contradicts yours. I literally can't play a game with my ENFp friend because he ALWAYS has to win. It's really unhealthy.

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    Default Re: Beta Extroverts: the most competitive types?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    What do you think? In my observations, ESTps and ENFjs are the most competitive types. It also makes sense theoretically, imo.
    Elaborate a bit what you mean by competitive?

    I consider myself very competitive, however it is not always obvious to other people. Even those close to me can be surprised by it. So I'm not really "in your face" competitive all the time like many ESTps. I sort of choose when to apply "competitiveness" and when not to. Perhaps I'm not Beta extrovert

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    My experience contradicts yours. I literally can't play a game with my ENFp friend because he ALWAYS has to win. It's really unhealthy.
    Using this as an example: I would make a concious choice in the beginning of the game whether it is "fight to the death" (heh) or "innocent fun" or what. Then I would play by that decision. Sometimes I get waaaaay too serious in games if I feel like this is something I need and want to win. Sometimes I can even lose on purpose. It depends on the context.

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    Well, anyone CAN be extremely competitive of course, but this is just a general trend I'm referring to here. Intertype relations would come into play too, I imagine.

    ENFjs seem to be competitive in more of a social way. ESTps seem competitive in every way. Like, things that a lot of people wouldn't even realize could possibly be made into competitions are just naturally competitive to them. As a result, they're almost always on the top, in a sense, so that's a good thing... but at the same time this type of thing pushes a lot people away from them.
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    you know what they say...
    if you can't take the heat, get the fuck out the kitchen!
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    Both ESFps and ESTps are competitive. The difference between them is that with ESFps, it's a more friendly game... unless it's personal. ESFps fight dirty if it's personal. Other than that, ESFps like friendly competition and when it's business, they prefer win/win situations. Betas, from the outside looking in, see things from more of a "you're either the winner or the loser" mentality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Both ESFps and ESTps are competitive. The difference between them is that with ESFps, it's a more friendly game... unless it's personal. ESFps fight dirty if it's personal. Other than that, ESFps like friendly competition and when it's business, they prefer win/win situations. Betas, from the outside looking in, see things from more of a "you're either the winner or the loser" mentality.
    Yeah, let's demonize ESTps, and Betas on the whole while we're at it, even more that we're already rediculously infamous for doing! (And, just to be safe, we'll say something slightly negative (although relatively insignificant) about our people [but not ourselves!] just to make it seem like we're not as biased as we actually are.)

    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    How is any of that bad?
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    I'm not competitive. Don't get me wrong, when I'm playing some sort of sport or game, yes I'm very competitive, but outside of those moments I'm not very competitive. I'm very relaxed and laid back. It's actually funny when people try to turn everything into a competition. I find that shit annoying too.
    ESTp

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    I suppose I could have mentioned that these aforementioned ESTps are often the most popular (in a strictly social sense) and least fucked with people around. They are the type who get promotions and get picked first for teams and whatnot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I suppose I could have mentioned that these aforementioned ESTps are often the most popular (in a strictly social sense) and least fucked with people around. They are the type who get promotions and get picked first for teams and whatnot.


    God, you're just spewing stereotype after stereotype reworded to sound new like it's some kind of insight on types, when in actuality all you're doing is worsening peoples' images and perpetuating outdated bullshit.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Please, correct me. Which parts are inaccurate? btw, what I wrote was not in any way intended to fully encompass all that is ESTp. And no, I didn't read any of that anywhere, it's just shit I've observed.

    I haven't posted anything offensive. You're just either hypersensitive about your PoLR or looking for a fight. Or holding a grudge. In any case, quit being a little bitch.
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    hey pedro that link you got there is fuckin amazing... i mean finally they'll build a 6 million dollar man! can you imagine a bionic dick? it would be like superman. that guy could never have sex with a normal human being though. he would have to find a bionic pussy to fit his superhuman powers... you know, like a special purpose in life. the bionic dick would then roam the Earth in search of the perfect mate. along the way, he would rescue people in need. you know kinda like that Kung Fu guy who played in Kill Bill? that's right, he could fight crime. can you picture it? he'd lift cars with his superdick to rescue trapped children... he would prove himself useful in a future New Orleans catastrophe. no need for FEMA, BIONICDICK is here. Here i come to save the day!...

    btw, in that picture of the inventor and his wife, well, he's either discreetly fingering her or he's already modified his frank.

    When you had the implant, your wife also underwent a similar procedure temporarily and you and she communicated nervous system to nervous system. Can you explain what happened and how it felt?
    huh huh... yeah!
    IEI - the nasty kind...

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    It's impossible, a normal woman could never have a bionically-enhanced man's baby. Do you think her fallopian tubes could handle the sperm? I guarantee you he blows a load like a shotgun right through her back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by science as magic
    It's impossible, a normal woman could never have a bionically-enhanced man's baby. Do you think her fallopian tubes could handle the sperm? I guarantee you he blows a load like a shotgun right through her back.

    hot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Both ESFps and ESTps are competitive. The difference between them is that with ESFps, it's a more friendly game... unless it's personal. ESFps fight dirty if it's personal. Other than that, ESFps like friendly competition and when it's business, they prefer win/win situations. Betas, from the outside looking in, see things from more of a "you're either the winner or the loser" mentality.

    YES YES WE WANT TO KILL EVERYBODYYYY!!!! Oh fuck christ joy, will you ever be objective in any of your statements?


    In any case, after the game, I couldn't care less who wins or loses. It's just fun to play. Competition adds to the fun.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBean
    I'm not competitive. Don't get me wrong, when I'm playing some sort of sport or game, yes I'm very competitive, but outside of those moments I'm not very competitive. I'm very relaxed and laid back. It's actually funny when people try to turn everything into a competition. I find that shit annoying too.
    Exactly, precisely and completely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Both ESFps and ESTps are competitive. The difference between them is that with ESFps, it's a more friendly game... unless it's personal. ESFps fight dirty if it's personal. Other than that, ESFps like friendly competition and when it's business, they prefer win/win situations. Betas, from the outside looking in, see things from more of a "you're either the winner or the loser" mentality.

    YES YES WE WANT TO KILL EVERYBODYYYY!!!! Oh fuck christ joy, will you ever be objective in any of your statements?


    In any case, after the game, I couldn't care less who wins or loses. It's just fun to play. Competition adds to the fun.
    I believe I was clear in that these are just the personal observations of an outsider? Cursing at me over it is unnecessary, as is the use of absolutes such as "ever" and "any".

    That said, not caring who wins or loses is far from the point. Many of the ESTps I've known have been gracious losers with most people as well. Being able to accept a loss graciously doesn't mean that there's any less of an "you're either the winner or the loser" mentality.

    The fact that human bean says he is irritated by people who see competition where there doesn't need to be any suggests two possible conclusions to me:

    1.) Not all Beta Extroverts are exactly like the ones I've known.

    2.) Many Beta Extroverts don't even realize that they're doing it.

    My guess would be that both are the case.
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    Where is that thread where competitiveness is assossiated to ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Both ESFps and ESTps are competitive. The difference between them is that with ESFps, it's a more friendly game... unless it's personal. ESFps fight dirty if it's personal. Other than that, ESFps like friendly competition and when it's business, they prefer win/win situations. Betas, from the outside looking in, see things from more of a "you're either the winner or the loser" mentality.
    That is wrong. If anything it's the other way around, with ESTp-s preferring a friendly game. Did you forget that it's the ESTp of the two that pays full attention to the internal dynamics of others? You obviously mistyped those people as ESTp-s.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Please, correct me. Which parts are inaccurate?
    Ok joy, I will and simply because I can't stand to look at the maliciousness you posted.

    For starters, you're theoretically wrong. I'll progressively describe it to you.

    To start with the informational elements, they are information, meaning there is no such thing as subjective information. You can on the other hand subjectify information, like say "this green is my blue" meaning you subjectively see blue. But the fact is the original information is green, you just later altered it. The same goes for the elements. For instance you perceive information about static objects in your environment. But what you do with that information, "this is my new blue" "GAHHH!!! He's wearing red, he's a commie!" "Hmm... cool" and so on is an individual interpretation by that individual.

    This means that the information from the elements cannot by itself be a cause for competitiveness as it has to be consciously (Or unconsciously) interpreted (Altered) first to cause competitiveness.

    Moving on, I have concluded that competitiveness comes from interpreting information and NOT from acquiring it.

    If one were to focus solely on socionics the alteration (Interpretation) of information comes through the functions of the psyche. They place value and judgment on the information acquired, constantly using, possibly abusing the information, generally altering it. Here is an analysis of where the source of competitiveness could potentially be regarding the blocks of the psyche:

    If we look at the Ego we see that it is the place of greatest power and potentially greatest abuse.
    The Super ego is weak, place of fears and phobias, the beast source of a potential desire to win as a result of lacking confidence in one or more areas in here.
    The Super ID is a place of dependency and a desire to be good in the areas here would potentially drive a person to overcompensate.
    The ID is strong and not under control and competitiveness born here would come off as such, or in other words, unhealthy.

    You describe competitiveness as a normal trait of personality, which to me signifies Ego.

    Why not the rest is cause of the following:

    Not the Super ego cause there are no phobias involved, this behavior is normal and to some extent stereotypical,
    Not the Super ID as it is not dependency
    And not the ID as it is not raw.

    Now if we look though the ego functions of beta types, these are , , , .

    Straight of the starting line we can rule out and as the information they provide is static. To be competitive one has to be immersed in the flow of information coming from one's opponent, the information has to be dynamic. For the static's it's a simple yes or no situation. I won or I lost.

    This leaves and . Taking into account their natural state in the ego competitiveness would form in terms of a competition in the field of internal dynamics as both functions deal with information about internal dynamic of the world.
    This ego would be superb in manipulating and competition in the field of philosophical debate. But this still does not make them competitive, just the best in one kind of competition.

    As for the competitiveness you tried to label on beta (Among other things), using the analogy for other quadras, I'll skip a few steps, we get:

    In gamma the dynamic comes from and . But one deals with external dynamics of objects, while the other with internal dynamics of fields. This means information about the external flow of objects in internal fields gets interpreted. My guess is that they' be best in competitions in politics.

    For alpha we have an . This means information about the internal flow of objects in external fields get interpreted. My guess is that it deals with society, social reforms, social issues, social something. My guess is that they' be best in competitions in social structures, the best comunity and so on.

    For delta it's and , or dealing with external dynamics. My guess is that it deals with external dynamics or physical competitions. My guess is they'd be best in competitions in sports.

    My conclusion is that there is no such thing as "the most competitive type" cause each type is uniquely competitive on their own turf.
    And that in all these dynamics the win-lose thing would be a consequence of defending one's ego.

    And a personal remark, your competitiveness undoubtedly lies in social structures, the cliques, the cool kids and all that rubbish I find pointless but you seem hyper aware of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by science as magic
    It's impossible, a normal woman could never have a bionically-enhanced man's baby. Do you think her fallopian tubes could handle the sperm? I guarantee you he blows a load like a shotgun right through her back.
    imagine a bionic pussy! imagine the possibilities! imagine a bionic baby! i do admit though that a bionic dick could prolly be dangerous for people. it could be like his secret weapon. as a last resort, he could jizz all over his enemies puncturing holes and blinding leaving venus flytraps everywhere. also, his load could act as a powerful chemical weapon exciting women yards if not miles away.

    but imagine a bionic pussy! now, you'd have to have a superdick for that one. if not you'd get your penis crunched. it's the penis cruncher! also known as the tongue twister!
    IEI - the nasty kind...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustachio
    Quote Originally Posted by science as magic
    It's impossible, a normal woman could never have a bionically-enhanced man's baby. Do you think her fallopian tubes could handle the sperm? I guarantee you he blows a load like a shotgun right through her back.
    imagine a bionic pussy! imagine the possibilities! imagine a bionic baby! i do admit though that a bionic dick could prolly be dangerous for people. it could be like his secret weapon. as a last resort, he could jizz all over his enemies puncturing holes and blinding leaving venus flytraps everywhere. also, his load could act as a powerful chemical weapon exciting women yards if not miles away.

    but imagine a bionic pussy! now, you'd have to have a superdick for that one. if not you'd get your penis crunched. it's the penis cruncher! also known as the tongue twister!
    I think it'd be awesome, a bionic pussy with a lot of mobile circuits into it, so that the mobility is at its maximum. Also of course the bionic parts should be covered with soft material, and the bionic girl programmed before the sex.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    snegledmaca, I'm not sure how to respond to your post as it relates to me because you seem to have a very inaccurate perception of me, and I totally disagree on your observations of ESFps vs. ESTps, based on the people I have known. It may very well be that we find that these types appear differently because we have different quadra values and as a result we respond different to these types.

    I will agree that people are most competitive when it comes to ego functions, most specifically their first functions (though I have to think a bit more on that one). There are different forms and reasons for competitiveness. The ones that stand out to me are the ones who don't make as much sense to me.

    How's this for a theory...

    From a Beta perspective: ESTps are just having fun, but with ESFps it's person and they fight dirty.

    From a Gamma perspective: ESFps can fight dirty when it's personal (as I've mentioned), but ESTps are the ones who see things in a "win or loose" mentality. I TOTALLY agree that Static vs. Dynamic plays a role in this competitiveness. That was a very good observation.

    So uh... yeah, perspective and quadra values and whatnot.
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    Hehe, competition...

    Let's see. If I'm playing a game of basketball, I want to show the guy up. I keep telling myself that I'll join the team in college and be on the varsity bench.

    Science/math competitions. Naturally am drawn toward those that do well...competition keeps me pushing forward.

    Playing ping pong for the first time against my friend...I just couldn't lose.

    I want to be the guy that's done the most stuff, watched the most movies, etc.

    But it all comes out healthy. When I lose, I give a lot of credit to the other guy and let him have the spotlight. =)

    I don't know why I'm so competitive. But it's good, because it reminds me that I shouldn't settle for less, not take a risk, etc.
    ENFJ

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    Hehe, competition...

    Let's see. If I'm playing a game of basketball, I want to show the guy up. I keep telling myself that I'll join the team in college and be on the varsity bench.

    Science/math competitions. Naturally am drawn toward those that do well...competition keeps me pushing forward.

    Playing ping pong for the first time against my friend...I just couldn't lose.

    I want to be the guy that's done the most stuff, watched the most movies, etc.

    But it all comes out healthy. When I lose, I give a lot of credit to the other guy and let him have the spotlight. =)

    I don't know why I'm so competitive. But it's good, because it reminds me that I shouldn't settle for less, not take a risk, etc.
    ENFJ

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    Generally competition is associated with Se, but I've met competitive LIIs, EIIs... In other words: 90% of people are competitive, independent of type. But they hide it. They hide it because of the fear of being a loser, because they can't stick with the competition to the end.

    The main difference is that EIEs and SLEs generally are the types most persistent and confident in their abilities, so they accept competition as something positive in their lives. Or maybe they have so sick minds that their happiness comes from being better than everyone else and hummiliating people..
    Last edited by Dionysius; 11-27-2016 at 06:57 PM.

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    I think of competitiveness as a measure of how badly someone wants something. All humans are, by nature, competitive; and we may compete for the same prize but for many different reasons or convictions, and with different capabilities. The methods by which one competes may vary but shear determination can make up for many type-related shortcomings. It's just that some seem to wear their competitiveness on their sleeves but they are no more competitive.......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    The reason why SLE and EIE were chosen: their enneagram types. Since enneagram is all about motivation, contestation is a great topic here, manifesting in the forms of unhealthy e8 (SLE) and e3 (EIE). But as we talk about competition, there is a great difference between the two of them:

    - Unhealthy E8 motivation is to control not to be submitted. It's always about me VS them - even in healthy mode, that is the case, where they become self-sufficient. They don't bother to compete, they actually seize power over others. There is no race but only domination. When they compete, it's disguised as them conquering others and making them obey.

    - Unhealthy E3 motivation is to compete in order to avoid rejection. When they don't get into the "I work hard to be admired" mode, they are THE competitor. Their outward focus is exactly what creates this situation. They don't aim to take charge, but throw others under the bus to shine. So basically, if you want to know the most competitive one, look at the types who are E3s and show signs of wanting to outperform others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysius View Post
    Generally competition is associated with Se, but I've met competitive LIIs, EIIs... In other words: 90% of people are competitive, independent of type. But they hide it. They hide it because of the fear of being a loser, because they can't stick with the competition to the end.

    The main difference is that EIEs and SLEs generally are the types most persistent and confident in their abilities, so they accept competition as something positive in their lives. Or maybe they have so sick minds that their happiness comes from being better than everyone else and hummiliating people..
    Good points.

    I've known competitive ILEs, ESEs, IEEs, etc. The difference that Se makes is how much people feed off of succeeding and dominating (or rather, grappling with adversity and challenge) at a raw psychological level. When it comes to that, Se valuing extroverts are going to be the most obvious examples. Fe also seems to play a role somewhat, in the sense of caring about what other people are doing, and it's probably linked with Ti's objective standards. Ambition and competition seem to be lowest in Delta introverts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I think of competitiveness as a measure of how badly someone wants something. All humans are, by nature, competitive; and we may compete for the same prize but for many different reasons or convictions, and with different capabilities. The methods by which one competes may vary but shear determination can make up for many type-related shortcomings. It's just that some seem to wear their competitiveness on their sleeves but they are no more competitive.......

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    I agree with this and the bolded part is really what it comes down to IMO. Because SLEs and EIEs are both Se-valuing extroverts, they're more likely to embrace it, and combined with Fe-valuing, to also express it in a way that is understood in a sort of socially-oriented form of communication. I don't view myself as competitive; actually, I feel rather competition-averse. I see it as a negative or necessary evil type aspect of human nature. But at the same time, I would say that I'm very aware of and attuned to the scent of competitiveness or competitive situations, and if something is very important to me, I strive to win (and I mean only if it is very important--tbh I don't even like competition in games...I'd rather focus on having fun and I hate most card games and gambling for this reason). Competition can also be a good outlet for releasing pent up energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I agree with this and the bolded part is really what it comes down to IMO. Because SLEs and EIEs are both Se-valuing extroverts, they're more likely to embrace it, and combined with Fe-valuing, to also express it in a way that is understood in a sort of socially-oriented form of communication. I don't view myself as competitive; actually, I feel rather competition-averse. I see it as a negative or necessary evil type aspect of human nature. But at the same time, I would say that I'm very aware of and attuned to the scent of competitiveness or competitive situations, and if something is very important to me, I strive to win (and I mean only if it is very important--tbh I don't even like competition in games...I'd rather focus on having fun and I hate most card games and gambling for this reason). Competition can also be a good outlet for releasing pent up energy.
    I feel the same way about games.

    I'm extremely competitive in real life. I want to have no peers, but at the same time, I'm very sensitive to power and its use, and as I don't want to be controlled myself, I also try not to control others, beyond what is required to secure my own freedom of action. This means I will exert just enough force in a situation to win, but no more.
    I hate card games and I only gamble when I'm pretty sure I will win, and both of these things feel like they are hurting people, so I avoid them.

    If I start into a competition, I want to win it, and win it permanently so I don't have to do this extremely unpleasant task again. I read that LIE's have a reputation for being brutal in combat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89uYbBOm6fg), and I think this feeling is where that comes from. As a result, I am also very competition-averse when it comes to interactions with friends.

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    Why bother with competition,I do what I want.

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    I actually think competitiveness is most serious in victim types so you could be right about the ENFJs
    Last edited by Told Ya; 12-22-2016 at 01:27 PM. Reason: A change of wording

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    ESTP moreso. And more jealous. In my experience.

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    I don't get jealous. I also don't care to compete. I always win in my mind anyways. Ayyyyyyy.

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    I just read through Reinin descriptions.
    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...Grigory_Reinin

    There it seems that competition as social game is valued trait.
    Regarding SLE it is linked towards achieving their own goals to achieve internal harmony (and ILE is suffering... seeing social competition happening which is true BTW).

    So have can divide competition in terms
    1) achieving own goals internally fulfilling oneself
    2) having good social standing and being respectable person
    Enneagram 3 blindspot. Visual deficits in 4, 8. Triple instinctual blindspot.

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