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Thread: INFj stereotypes concerning determination and willpower

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    Default INFj stereotypes concerning determination and willpower

    I have been wondering about this. I experience myself as a very strong and determine person and others in real life often see me that way; I am probably not an INFj however.
    From observation, I personally think the association of with strong will and determination is over-rated.

    Will the INFjs (and perhaps those who know them) say how a lack of manifest in their lives?
    Do others who know you in real life think of you as a weak, fragile pushover? Are you really the doormats of the socion, well I made that part up but...

    I am a bit frustrated with the way I think socionics presents INFjs as super sweet and lovely but people who are enormously weak willed to the point of not even being able to say no (I read this in one description). In another, it is implied that INFjs are so lacking in determination that they cannot even live up to their own ideals a lot of times.

    INFjs, how do you see yourselves? Are these descriptions a fair and adequate description of who you really are?
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    I can honestly say that people in real life do not think of me as a weak, fragile pushover. In fact, the people who know me best often use the words “brave” and “strong-willed” to describe me. To take it a step further, I can be downright stubborn. However, this side of me is not always easily seen by others. I have a rather quiet personality.

    In my relationships with ESTps and ESFps, I am not the weak-willed one while they are the strong one. It is more or less that they are much more extroverted than me, in a way that seems imposing to me. That’s mostly how I see Se—imposing, and this makes me uncomfortable. When in this uncomfortable position, I shut down. I don’t roll over; I just don’t respond. There’s a difference. Consequently, ESTps describe me as “cold” and ESFps describe me as “contained,” not “weak.”

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    Hey, Megan, nice to see you posting again!

    If I think it's important, I'll fight for it. I can be quite stubborn and cause quite a stir. You know, ruffle a few feathers, step on a few toes. Not that I'm trying to do that, but it happens. Sometimes I get frustrated with people who I think are being stupid or unfair, and I feel like... well, not destroying them, exactly, but... showing them the error of their ways/thought processes. Making them "be good."

    Of course, when I'm in that mode, I'm more like a bulldozer than anything else. Not exactly subtle or delicate in my maneuvering.

    It's good to keep in mind my "if it's important" qualification. It's a bit subjective. Sometimes I'll think something is important, other times I won't. Generally, I don't put up a big fuss about things, so I can see how people who haven't known me well or for a long time could possibly see me as weak or a pushover. But, like April said, it's more that I let things pass me by than push me around.

    As far as reaching my ideals, yes, sometimes I have trouble with that. And I can have trouble saying no to people, too, especially if they pull the "be a good person to me" card (either directly or indirectly). But that's getting better with practice.

    @ Diana – I vaguely remember something about that, but not a whole lot. From what I do recall, you handled it quite well. I'm not sure I could have added anything except moral support.
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    I agree with what April and Minde had written. I also feel that INFjs are generally forgiving people and don't like to be involved in conflict with others. People could have misunderstood their withdrawal as weakness as a result, especially when INFjs rarely verbalize their intentions.

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    My INFj sister is pretty strong willed. She avoids direct confrontation, but she still finds ways to make it clear what she wants. She has a quiet kind of strength, but it's still a strength.
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    PoW of the conflictor: I don't see INFjs as weak-willed at all in the sense that they don't bend to others and are determined in their goals, I have seen the Se PoLR in an INFj teaching assistant and she was completely unable to hold the crowd of students, the voice was too low, she didn't know how to make her presence felt, she didn't write strong enough on the blackboard, she had a very monotone tone of voice when explaning that didn't catch the attention so on

    that's the way I see Se PoLR, a general inability to asser one's self onto others' self. it can even be an advantage actually: for example i dislike people that try to assert themselves onto me and thus, paradoxically, i tend to like infjs 10 times more than say, isfj, whose relation towards me should actually be more favourable
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I'm most likely not an INFj either, but I'm very curious about this as well. I got into a discussion recently defending INxjs from being called weak-willed wimps, but found that no INxj was willing to say anything in the discussion. Perhaps they didn't see the topic.
    I came to think that one way of looking at the types and their relationships is to model the functions as simple questions people are constantly asking and answering - and the intertype dynamics arising from this interaction.

    Thus the hidden agenda, "what people are trying to balance" could be seen as the question a person of the type constantly has at the back of his mind - and consequently - sees the output and reactions of his enviroment as answers to this question.

    Thus for example, ENxJ are balancing Se, in a sense objective "level of activity" power and even status, and thus they are concerned about if they are trying hard enough and being tough enough.

    And ISxJs again have Se as their creative function, or spontaneous expression , so they are constantly and instinctively supplying the answer to this question. You are tough enough, since you do this, or if you do that... Etc...
    (And as you may have gathered this rather made me think Diana could be ISFJ, or possibly ISTJ.)

    For other types it works on the same principle, but the questions asked and answered are different.

    For example ESxJ are balancing Ne or the wholeness of the external situation. Thus they are wondering if they have achieved perfection or are they possibly missing some key issues or details.

    INxJs with creative Ne again answer this question by pointing at some different ways of looking at the same issues, or just pointing at some details that the ESxJ has missed.

    INxJ themselves again are balancing introverted sensing, and what this means is a bit complex issue, but one way of looking at it is to remember one definition of introverted sensing. Subjective sensations and possessions, "money in the bank". Thus the question asked would be more along the lines of : Am I worthy of being your possession? Thus whether I am a weak willed wimp appears quite irrelevant. The question is what should I do for you, so that you would agree to take care of me: (Si) - in a sense to treat me as your personal possession.

    There are, of course many other ways of modelling the types, but in my opinion this helps make sense of the different ways the different types look at the world - and the misunderstandings that tend to arise due to type related differences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I'm most likely not an INFj either, but I'm very curious about this as well. I got into a discussion recently defending INxjs from being called weak-willed wimps, but found that no INxj was willing to say anything in the discussion. Perhaps they didn't see the topic.
    I came to think that one way of looking at the types and their relationships is to model the functions as simple questions people are constantly asking and answering - and the intertype dynamics arising from this interaction.

    Thus the hidden agenda, "what people are trying to balance" could be seen as the question a person of the type constantly has at the back of his mind - and consequently - sees the output and reactions of his enviroment as answers to this question.

    Thus for example, ENxJ are balancing Se, in a sense objective "level of activity" power and even status, and thus they are concerned about if they are trying hard enough and being tough enough.

    And ISxJs again have Se as their creative function, or spontaneous expression , so they are constantly and instinctively supplying the answer to this question. You are tough enough, since you do this, or if you do that... Etc...
    (And as you may have gathered this rather made me think Diana could be ISFJ, or possibly ISTJ.)

    For other types it works on the same principle, but the questions asked and answered are different.

    For example ESxJ are balancing Ne or the wholeness of the external situation. Thus they are wondering if they have achieved perfection or are they possibly missing some key issues or details.

    INxJs with creative Ne again answer this question by pointing at some different ways of looking at the same issues, or just pointing at some details that the ESxJ has missed.

    INxJ themselves again are balancing introverted sensing, and what this means is a bit complex issue, but one way of looking at it is to remember one definition of introverted sensing. Subjective sensations and possessions, "money in the bank". Thus the question asked would be more along the lines of : Am I worthy of being your possession? Thus whether I am a weak willed wimp appears quite irrelevant. The question is what should I do for you, so that you would agree to take care of me: (Si) - in a sense to treat me as your personal possession.

    There are, of course many other ways of modelling the types, but in my opinion this helps make sense of the different ways the different types look at the world - and the misunderstandings that tend to arise due to type related differences.
    This is a very good explanation, I suggest you to post it on the main forum maybe if you wish
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    This is a very good explanation, I suggest you to post it on the main forum maybe if you wish
    Thanks.
    I would have to work out the details better for all the types, and possibly the subtypes as well, but maybe later.
    Of course you could try to do it yourself - from your point of view.
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    wow what a tough act to follow. good work curious soul.

    i don't see infj's as pushovers at all. in fact, they can be quite obstinent, tough to impress, and even argumentative. but Se is forcefulness, plain simple. and infj's can't stand aggression or seeing others hurt. A strong Se or personal forcefulness; this they neither like nor value nor can demonstrate well.

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    Default Re: INFj conference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I'm most likely not an INFj either, but I'm very curious about this as well. I got into a discussion recently defending INxjs from being called weak-willed wimps, but found that no INxj was willing to say anything in the discussion. Perhaps they didn't see the topic.
    Hehe. I think your most convincing argument was that YOU are not a weak-willed wimp

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I have been wondering about this. I experience myself as a very strong and determine person and others in real life often see me that way; I am probably not an INFj however.
    From observation, I personally think the association of with strong will and determination is over-rated.

    Will the INFjs (and perhaps those who know them) say how a lack of manifest in their lives?
    Do others who know you in real life think of you as a weak, fragile pushover? Are you really the doormats of the socion, well I made that part up but...
    I have been thinking about this lately. I think the idea that PoLR people are wimps is completely untrue. I think they can be very determined and stubborn and internally strong. They can push THEMSELVES hard and achieve goals.

    However their problem is probably the lack of power over OTHER PEOPLE. They are not good at pushing OTHER PEOPLE hard in order to achieve things. Thus they lack certain leadership qualities. They can lead by example but that's about it. If people are not willing to listen to them or follow them or accept their goals then they are left clueless. So my guess is that PoLR is perhaps most related to the disability in organizing and using other people to help you achieve your goals.

    INFj and INTj are almost destined to become somewhat loners in their pursuits because they have original goals, they are stubborn at achieving them (especially INTjs), but at the same time they are not capable of mobilizing other people to help them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    that's the way I see Se PoLR, a general inability to asser one's self onto others' self. it can even be an advantage actually:
    FDG that seems to be quite Astute. My INFj friend(a guy) came over the other day quite upset. He calls himself MR invisible like no one notices him. He believes people ignore him and so on. He also said this happens on the internet, people ignore him.

    I didn't really know how to give him good advice. I just said that the Internet is like that, even i ignore people on Msn etc as i cant be bothered talking to them. I talked to him for about an hour and he seemed really happy when he left he practically bounced up to his car lol. I thought Mirrors aren't supposed to be interested in each others problems?

    So this feeling Invisible quality is possibly another part of the INFj POLR?
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    That's how I feel sometimes, too. Except, I might use the word inaudible. And it isn't always a problem. I've learned ways to be heard, and besides, sometimes it's good to go unnoticed.

    As far as mirrors not being interested in each other's problems, I'm not sure that was even necessary in this case. You don't have the same problem your friend has, but you cared about him and the effect it was having on him. So, probably just having someone look at and listen to him was enough to cheer your friend up. You basically showed him that he wasn't invisible, which made his unhappiness go away.
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    Here's a PoLR situation my sister was in.

    Her church was looking for someone to work in one of the nurseries. I think for 3-year-olds. My sister doesn't have any kids, but the person in charge of religious education talked her into being completely in charge of this anyway. She wasn't that happy about it, but she was assured the parents would take turns helping her and working on Sundays with her.

    Guess what happened? She had to call around every week trying to get a parent to fulfill his/her responsibility to work in this class. And none ever wanted to do it. My sister isn't someone who can easily call around and try to make people do work.

    So then she wanted to quit doing it. And this person who is in charge of religious education just was pushing her and pushing her to keep doing it. She finally quit the whole church over it and moved to a different church. She couldn't handle that level of confrontation every week at a place where she was supposed to be enjoying herself.

    I felt bad for her. It wasn't fair of this person to put her in that position. I never met this woman so I don't know what type she is, but I heard my sister on the phone with her and it sounded like she was responding to Se.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Hey, Megan, nice to see you posting again!
    Thanks Minde. I am trying really hard to increase my post count :wink: . How does one get to 1000posts?

    @ Diana, I saw that discussion on whether INXjs are weak willed wimps and I thought that you were doing a very good job holding up your end of the argument and you covered all the necessary grounds so I did not intervene myself.

    @April, do you look around and think that a lot of really irrelevant even silly things are important to a lot of people? Like where I work, I saw these two ladies(one ISFj and the other's type I don't yet know) arguing heatedly... nearly to the point of violence over who was the rightful owner of a pair of scissors that cost next to nothing from the shop next door. Please excuse my implied superiority but if I was involved, this situation would not have resulted in an argument. I would just let the other person have the damn scissors. In my mind it is just not worth the aggravation to be arguing over something so cheap and meaningless.
    I am not against fighting but I choose my battles rather carefully, and stay well clear of arguing over little things. This often cause certain people to try and go a few steps further and then it gets serious because I will defend myself in a way which surprises them and it is very unusual after I assert myself for people to even try to get away with even small offences against me. I am especially persistent when pissed off.

    @fever and CS, I think you guys have good points there.
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    @Slacker Mom, what are your views on why your sister just did not simply say No! and stick with that?
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    I think she did say no, but that this woman wouldn't accept that and kept pushing her to do it. She caved under the continual pressure. She tried to make the best of it, and I remember her saying, "I like kids. I bet it'll be fun." But it was a LOT of work and she didn't get the help she was promised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I would just let the other person have the damn scissors. In my mind it is just not worth the aggravation to be arguing over something so cheap and meaningless.
    LOL... i agree!

    hey Megan, i'm glad u brought this topic to light as there has been a lot of misunderstanding on this subject!
    chilling out (and getting chilly) in the penalty box.

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    Thanks fever.

    I truly think INFjs are amongst the least passive of all types especially on things that really matter to them. I guess if INFjs were getting all aggressive about all sorts of little things and trying to force themselves and their ideas on others then they would more likely be seen as strong by some. It is sort of pathetic to think that trying to force others to do what you want them to do can be considered strong.


    I wonder through if the basic problem is not something to do with how is understood and I really liked your above theory regarding that.

    I myself know so many very weak willed types and I am sure you do as well. A lot of them seem all aggressive on the surface to me but tend not to put up any sort of really effective forms of true assertiveness if you look really closely at their behaviour; many just succumb to authority and popularity etc in the end.

    What I see is INFjs unwilling to use on others but certainly not willing to allow it to be used on them either and so use their to find ways to fight back at it.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Thanks fever.

    I truly think INFjs are amongst the least passive of all types especially on things that really matter to them. I guess if INFjs were getting all aggressive about all sorts of little things and trying to force themselves and their ideas on others then they would more likely be seen as strong by some. It is sort of pathetic to think that trying to force others to do what you want them to do can be considered strong.
    I agree. I'm not talking, in fact, about forcing. I'm talking about when you actually have the authority to do it and you should be doing it, but are incapable of. Refer to my expample of the teacher: she had all the rights to force the students to listen to her, because it was her lecture and the students were being disrespectful. But, she couldn't. This might not apply to you, but that's what I have seen in action.

    I wonder through if the basic problem is not something to do with how is understood and I really liked your above theory regarding that.

    I myself know so many very weak willed types and I am sure you do as well. A lot of them seem all aggressive on the surface to me but tend not to put up any sort of really effective forms of true assertiveness if you look really closely at their behaviour; many just succumb to authority and popularity etc in the end.
    Yes, actually, "lack of will" is listed as one of the properties of Se- (which is Beta Se). In any case, I would agree that aggressivness on the surfaces is usually inversely correlated with assertivness. There are weak willed people of every type, of course.

    What I see is INFjs unwilling to use on others but certainly not willing to allow it to be used on them either and so use their to find ways to fight back at it.
    I've never been in such a situation, so I don't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I got into a discussion recently defending INxjs from being called weak-willed wimps, but found that no INxj was willing to say anything in the discussion. Perhaps they didn't see the topic.
    i'd just say the same thing i always say, socionics is bullshit :wink:

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    In my relationships with ESTps and ESFps, I am not the weak-willed one while they are the strong one. It is more or less that they are much more extroverted than me, in a way that seems imposing to me. That’s mostly how I see Se—imposing, and this makes me uncomfortable. When in this uncomfortable position, I shut down. I don’t roll over; I just don’t respond. There’s a difference. Consequently, ESTps describe me as “cold” and ESFps describe me as “contained,” not “weak.”
    Amen to that. That is pretty much how I deal with it too. They just do not get it. Not everyone is like them. ENFPs understand that. The other E's don't seem to. No, not everyone is like you are. Not everyone likes the things you do, and hates the things you don't. Get over it (and yourselves). In general, non FP E's just shit me off. Thankfully, they see only half the world. I see the other half and it's a lot prettier on my side of the fence (or so I tell myself haha).

    However their problem is probably the lack of power over OTHER PEOPLE. They are not good at pushing OTHER PEOPLE hard in order to achieve things. Thus they lack certain leadership qualities. They can lead by example but that's about it.
    It's funny that you say this. My old boss, who kindly admitted to my face that he didn't like me, said he saw substantial leadership qualities in me and wanted to work on them. I would be interested in hearing of other's INFJ's takes on this notion, but I would hypothesize that you describe a human quality, not a personality quality, something that can be developed by any type simply by the sorts of experiences they've had in life. Leadership aside, I most definitely can affirm what you said about lack of power over other people, which really, really stinks since we are one of the best types for being a counsellour, and again I'd love to hear from other INFJ's but yes I do firmly beleive that other people look right through us. Partly because we keep to ourselves, yes, but it's more than that. I think everyone is increasingly outwardly focused because of the media. We are bombarded with media 24/7 and many of us have forgotten how to get in touch with ourselves. My type, the INFJ, is probably unequivocally the best type for getting in touch with the self and because of that we see an entire, hidden world that other types can only glimpse. Consequentially we spend most of our time in this internal world of symbols and spiritual meanings and significance while most other types spend their lives in the external world, saturated by (and infatuated with) media. That's a general theory since I don't understand socionics enough to explain it, but I'm fairly sure that having Sensing as our weakest function means that we naturally turn inwards to find meaning in our lives, thus we tend to ignore the kinds of things we see as irrelevant, like trashy magazines etc, and focus on what's important, the self and others.

    In summing up, yes I do think other types could pay more attention to us. The problem is, I'm not sure the INFJ, as a collective type, would appreciate such attention which leaves the slightly more E - INFJ's like me out in the cold. ;(

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieLegend
    However their problem is probably the lack of power over OTHER PEOPLE. They are not good at pushing OTHER PEOPLE hard in order to achieve things. Thus they lack certain leadership qualities. They can lead by example but that's about it.
    It's funny that you say this. My old boss, who kindly admitted to my face that he didn't like me, said he saw substantial leadership qualities in me and wanted to work on them. I would be interested in hearing of other's INFJ's takes on this notion, but I would hypothesize that you describe a human quality, not a personality quality, something that can be developed by any type simply by the sorts of experiences they've had in life. Leadership aside, I most definitely can affirm what you said about lack of power over other people, which really, really stinks since we are one of the best types for being a counsellour, and again I'd love to hear from other INFJ's but yes I do firmly beleive that other people look right through us.
    It actually depends on the definition of leadership. In my definition there I assume that a good leader must have an ability to push people to do things (at least occasionally when it is needed). There probably exists the kind of environments where INFjs would be good leaders. There also exists many environments where they would not. Perhaps a black and white "good leader / bad leader" approach is not the right one in the end.

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    Leadership in this case would be mentoring.
    FiNe ftw

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieLegend
    I most definitely can affirm what you said about lack of power over other people, which really, really stinks since we are one of the best types for being a counsellour(
    Being a councillor doesn't require any power over anyone. You dont need to boss people around, you need to Inspire them and help them which INFj's can do well
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    Some people only learn by being pushed. :|

    Ultimately, most people only listen to what they want to hear.
    FiNe ftw

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    I'm sure councilors have to deal with bosses and co-workers just as anybody else in any other job would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I'm most likely not an INFj either, but I'm very curious about this as well. I got into a discussion recently defending INxjs from being called weak-willed wimps, but found that no INxj was willing to say anything in the discussion. Perhaps they didn't see the topic.
    I did.
    It just seemed completely irrelevant from my point of view.
    I know what I am and only the views of precious few people have any relevance to me.

    Hey hey HEY!!!


    If I saw the discussion I would have said something. Where is it?
    The only reason I didn't say anything was because I never saw it.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    INxJs with creative Ne again answer this question by pointing at some different ways of looking at the same issues, or just pointing at some details that the ESxJ has missed.

    INxJ themselves again are balancing introverted sensing, and what this means is a bit complex issue, but one way of looking at it is to remember one definition of introverted sensing. Subjective sensations and possessions, "money in the bank". Thus the question asked would be more along the lines of : Am I worthy of being your possession? Thus whether I am a weak willed wimp appears quite irrelevant. The question is what should I do for you, so that you would agree to take care of me: (Si) - in a sense to treat me as your personal possession.

    There are, of course many other ways of modeling the types, but in my opinion this helps make sense of the different ways the different types look at the world - and the misunderstandings that tend to arise due to type related differences.
    ......I agree.....
    But it is more a matter of: are you worthy of me submitting myself to you in that way?

    It's not just... wanting someone to take care of me, it's making sure someone is capable and competent, worthy of my time and energy.
    Are you going to treat me like a personal possession? Am I going to be prized or disregarded? Are you good at handling such things? Etc. Are you careful? Are you pushy (Se)? Will you assist me with dealing with people who I am "not in the mood" to talk to?
    Things like that.

    Are you a good investment? Is the risk worth it? Does it have a big upside or a minimal upside? etc
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieLegend
    Leadership in this case would be mentoring.
    I can see that working.

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    If INFjs were weak-willed pushover type, they couldn't be dual to the ESTj. LSEs don't respect people whom they can easily push around and run over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan View Post
    I am a bit frustrated with the way I think socionics presents INFjs as super sweet and lovely but people who are enormously weak willed to the point of not even being able to say no (I read this in one description). In another, it is implied that INFjs are so lacking in determination that they cannot even live up to their own ideals a lot of times.
    Actually, this is true to form in at least some cases. My EII mom has such weak Se that she can't say goodbye to someone on the phone even if she knows she is making someone else late for something or making someone wait on her. It goes much further than just talking on the phone though. I can't stress enough how much this permeates her life. If I have a problem with her and try to bring it up rather than listening she will either completely shut down and not listen or start playing the victim like I make her feel bad with my accusations. She often times makes excuses for her weak Se, but, in the end, she acts in whatever way will lead to fewer real negative consequences for her. If she knows someone else doesn't pose much of a risk for her she won't worry about being inconsiderate towards them. It's an area of contention for my LSE father and her. He doesn't get it at all. He actually has a lot easier of a time being selfless. She has even groaned that she needs to be more considerate but still can't bring herself to do it.

    My EII friend is a bit healthier in this regard. He won't let his weak Se get in the way of something he is indignant about and he doesn't have a problem being considerate of others. However, he does have a really hard time saying "No" to people when it's in his best interest. He may end up spending time with people he hates just for this reason. It always seems senseless to me, but I don't bring it up because I know its useless. Also, he is easily pushed into things by his mother and sister. They know they can get their way with him if they just push a little bit. In that case, he always ends up doing things that embarrass him or make his life miserable. They also tend to baby him in ways that are absolutely a shame for someone who is in college.Yet he still won't put his foot down.

    I think the latter situation is really where the LSE can come in to help the EII.

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    I can and do whatever I set my heart to. I don't want to push things and when I do it costs me physically and I retreat.. I have done a lot of amazing things and I continue to do amazing things. Will power refers to energy, an SEE can manipulate the scene not in a negative way but they can reframe things into an attitude that's more productive. Also they are less concerned about other people's perspective rather their own and this way they can be very aggressive as they can often cut through bs and frame things in the reality that they experience. I bring data in and focus on perspectives and tend to give a lot of weight to people's personal experiences and validify what's in their head. SEE want to put themselves in the other person's head and convince other's of what they think. They don't care as much as I do about what happens in oth other people's head as I do. I love to let the person tell me of what they are feeling and why they feel a certain reality they see is how they want it where if that reality doesn't agree or align with an SEE they will pursue you to change your attitude. @Eliza Thomason what do you think?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-27-2014 at 02:41 AM.

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    I am so incredibly reflective and Se ego are reactive

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    Wow, Maritsa, I think I agree with all of this because it made me think of SEEs I know. But I will break it down a bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I can and do whatever I set my heart to. I don't want to push things and when I do it costs me physically and I retreat..
    I see my EII sis-in-law as able to accomplish very amazing things, too, also my EII friend. BOTH are much better than me at drawing boundaries, watching and guarding their own energy levels. They know right away whether a thing is "their concern" or not and are much better than me at putting aside things that get in the way of things that ARE their business.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I have done a lot of amazing things and I continue to do amazing things. Will power refers to energy,
    Are you saying your accomplishments often come from EII willpower, and the following explains how SEE gets things done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    ...SEE can manipulate the scene not in a negative way but they can reframe things into an attitude that's more productive.
    I have seen SEEs accomplish this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Also they are less concerned about other people's perspective rather their own and this way they can be very aggressive as they can often cut through bs and frame things in the reality that they experience.
    Yes! And it seems aggressive to me at times, particularly when I am not being understood and my perspective is ignored. However, its also admirable about SEE's that they understand their own experience so well. It is a gift.

    Note to self: Stop trying to get any SEEs to see my perspective. Or at least save it for that one very important thing that might come up!


    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I bring data in and focus on perspectives and tend to give a lot of weight to people's personal experiences and validify what's in their head.
    Yes, the IEEs I know are good at this and make me feel validated and understood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    SEE want to put themselves in the other person's head and convince other's of what they think.
    And something about me and being IEE really, really is adverse to this. It feels like my freedom of thought is being trampled upon and this I do want to defend and will. And since I experienced this some with my ex, when I get this from SEE I just want to get out of their presence. Or change the subject!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    They don't care as much as I do about what happens in other people's head as I do. I love to let the person tell me of what they are feeling and why they feel a certain reality they see is how they want it
    I definitely feel understood by you in that way and also with my other EII friends. Its one of the things I value about the EIIs I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    where if that reality doesn't agree or align with an SEE they will pursue you to change your attitude.



    Probably Obstinacy is the obstacle with me and SEE. "Ideas are 'sacred', but resources are freely shared and manipulated." Both the SEE and IEE are Obstinates, so both subscribe to that. So what do you do when SEE and IEE are having opposite ideas? Probably, at least according to what you said here, you will see a lot of SEE trying to impose their idea on IEE, and IEE trying fiercely to defend theirs, and never the twain shall meet. IEE wants to get along, so will keep trying to change or drop the subject, or agree to disagree without further discussion. Plus IEE will be horrified when efforts to make peace are misjudged...

    The SEEs I know IRL will declare ideas and beliefs that I am completely in disagreement with and I could make a very good argument. But I say nothing of my opposing opinions because instinct tells me they don't want to hear it. If they are pressing a point, looking for my agreement I will just say, "I don't believe that." That way its open for them to say, "What do you believe?" And they never ask! Its okay; peaceful relations remain, and that's what I want. I want to appreciate people for what they can give, for who they are, not for a particular thing I want from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I am so incredibly reflective and Se ego are reactive
    YES!!! Se ego are SO reactive. I have seen this in ALL these SEEs I know in real life and some online - because even online personality comes through very strong. And when SEE has a dramatic reaction to it, don't even think about trying to talk them out of it! Better not. Though, with the real life SEEs I know, when they reacted and were clearly wrong, I did see the lightbulb go off when presented with clear reason. Though I never woudl have pressed for them to admit it. Because all that drama tells me top step back and let them be.

    (My real-life SEEs and I are getting along great these days! Part of that comes from my accepting them for who they are, including their having high-drama reactions to things, their being free spirits who must do things in their own unique way that may seem rather haphazard or random but does get the job done. And I appreciate the certain sturdiness of SEEs, in spite of the drama bursts.They are capable and intelligent, in spite of a wrong conclusion you could draw of them when they are in a passion over something.)

    Sorry for the side-track on SEEs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Wow, Maritsa, I think I agree with all of this because it made me think of SEEs I know. But I will break it down a bit:


    I see my EII sis-in-law as able to accomplish very amazing things, too, also my EII friend. BOTH are much better than me at drawing boundaries, watching and guarding their own energy levels. They know right away whether a thing is "their concern" or not and are much better than me at putting aside things that get in the way of things that ARE their business.


    Are you saying your accomplishments often come from EII willpower, and the following explains how SEE gets things done?

    I have seen SEEs accomplish this.

    Yes! And it seems aggressive to me at times, particularly when I am not being understood and my perspective is ignored. However, its also admirable about SEE's that they understand their own experience so well. It is a gift.

    Note to self: Stop trying to get any SEEs to see my perspective. Or at least save it for that one very important thing that might come up!


    Yes, the IEEs I know are good at this and make me feel validated and understood.


    And something about me and being IEE really, really is adverse to this. It feels like my freedom of thought is being trampled upon and this I do want to defend and will. And since I experienced this some with my ex, when I get this from SEE I just want to get out of their presence. Or change the subject!

    I definitely feel understood by you in that way and also with my other EII friends. Its one of the things I value about the EIIs I know.




    Probably Obstinacy is the obstacle with me and SEE. "Ideas are 'sacred', but resources are freely shared and manipulated." Both the SEE and IEE are Obstinates, so both subscribe to that. So what do you do when SEE and IEE are having opposite ideas? Probably, at least according to what you said here, you will see a lot of SEE trying to impose their idea on IEE, and IEE trying fiercely to defend theirs, and never the twain shall meet. IEE wants to get along, so will keep trying to change or drop the subject, or agree to disagree without further discussion. Plus IEE will be horrified when efforts to make peace are misjudged...

    The SEEs I know IRL will declare ideas and beliefs that I am completely in disagreement with and I could make a very good argument. But I say nothing of my opposing opinions because instinct tells me they don't want to hear it. If they are pressing a point, looking for my agreement I will just say, "I don't believe that." That way its open for them to say, "What do you believe?" And they never ask! Its okay; peaceful relations remain, and that's what I want. I want to appreciate people for what they can give, for who they are, not for a particular thing I want from them.

    YES!!! Se ego are SO reactive. I have seen this in ALL these SEEs I know in real life and some online - because even online personality comes through very strong. And when SEE has a dramatic reaction to it, don't even think about trying to talk them out of it! Better not. Though, with the real life SEEs I know, when they reacted and were clearly wrong, I did see the lightbulb go off when presented with clear reason. Though I never woudl have pressed for them to admit it. Because all that drama tells me top step back and let them be.

    (My real-life SEEs and I are getting along great these days! Part of that comes from my accepting them for who they are, including their having high-drama reactions to things, their being free spirits who must do things in their own unique way that may seem rather haphazard or random but does get the job done. And I appreciate the certain sturdiness of SEEs, in spite of the drama bursts.They are capable and intelligent, in spite of a wrong conclusion you could draw of them when they are in a passion over something.)

    Sorry for the side-track on SEEs...
    I'm saying accomplishments and goal setting are not a matter of will power that they can be a result of passion, perseverance and hard work or dedication. I think will is the want and need to take over someone elses territory of thought and feeling almost like influence or take over. I've seen a lot of SEE give up when faced a hard time emotionally or financially that isnt will. It's a certain ability to talk to aomeone about their problems. For example my brother who is often seriou and stern will become smilly and jokingly when he asks to borrow money where if that were me i would quietly endure a hard time and introvert and given that i have many extraverts in my life they notice my distance and come to my help. I'm very greatful for that and realizing this nature of money and emotional differences in people i know to go check up on people I love, periodically.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-27-2014 at 05:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Contra View Post
    Actually, this is true to form in at least some cases. My EII mom has such weak Se that she can't say goodbye to someone on the phone even if she knows she is making someone else late for something or making someone wait on her. It goes much further than just talking on the phone though. I can't stress enough how much this permeates her life. If I have a problem with her and try to bring it up rather than listening she will either completely shut down and not listen or start playing the victim like I make her feel bad with my accusations. She often times makes excuses for her weak Se, but, in the end, she acts in whatever way will lead to fewer real negative consequences for her. If she knows someone else doesn't pose much of a risk for her she won't worry about being inconsiderate towards them. It's an area of contention for my LSE father and her. He doesn't get it at all. He actually has a lot easier of a time being selfless. She has even groaned that she needs to be more considerate but still can't bring herself to do it.

    My EII friend is a bit healthier in this regard. He won't let his weak Se get in the way of something he is indignant about and he doesn't have a problem being considerate of others. However, he does have a really hard time saying "No" to people when it's in his best interest. He may end up spending time with people he hates just for this reason. It always seems senseless to me, but I don't bring it up because I know its useless. Also, he is easily pushed into things by his mother and sister. They know they can get their way with him if they just push a little bit. In that case, he always ends up doing things that embarrass him or make his life miserable. They also tend to baby him in ways that are absolutely a shame for someone who is in college.Yet he still won't put his foot down.

    I think the latter situation is really where the LSE can come in to help the EII.
    Not being able to say no to people is pretty accurate. However, I would say that in the case of most EIIs, this generally applies more so to people we feel tied to rather than just anyone in general. It's very easy for me to direct people toward doing what I need them to do, but it's difficult for me to do anything that will cause an upheaval. My strength lies in weathering upheavals caused by other people, not dealing with the aftermath of ones I've caused myself, lol.

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