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Thread: so it seems my mom is likely ENFj

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    Default so it seems my mom is likely ENFj...

    There's a person who is very concerned with following rules. She strongly believes that respecting and obeying authority is extremely important. The number one concept in parenting is teaching your children to be obedient. Her motto is "first time obedience," meaning that if she has time to repeat herself, the child has disobeyed. Disobedience carries a harsh punishment. She has a chain of command set up... first she obeys God's law, then the government's law. Women are to obey and submit to their husbands. Children are to obey adults. Employees are to obey their employer. She also believes that parents should teach their children how to be independent and take care of themselves as much as possible as they grow up. She believes that men should initiate relationships. She has very strict morals against sex outside of marriage, alcohol, drugs, lying, and not working hard. She tends to be an extremist, going all the way when she decides to do something (often too far). Once something is absolute in her mind (and there is very rarely anything that isn't), she will not budge. She takes pride in how "stubborn" she is because she will not give into any amount of "peer pressure" and do something that she believes is wrong. She tries to hold the people around her to these values as well. She has a very poor sense of how to deal with people.

    A few examples...

    She is an accountant in for a small company. One of the partners in ownership died in a car accident. The remaining partner, the man's brother in law, told her to make it look like the man's widow had been employed there for 6 months so that she could have insurance. She refused to comply and could not understand why he would even request this of her. She absolutely refuses to lie. She couldn't understand why her boss would even want to do that, since the widow is a millionaire. I tried in vain to explain to her that it's most likely something he wants to do so he feels like he's helping her out somehow, showing his sympathy for her loss.

    She went on a vacation with her children and husband, mother, sister and her family, and brother and his fiance. They stayed in a large condo, but there were only two private bedrooms. She automatically concluded that her brother and his fiance should obviously be the couple who does not get a private room since it is wrong for them to have sex outside of marriage in the first place.

    She is faced with some health problems which would usually require medicine with pretty nasty side effects. She decided that she would not take the medications and decided that eating healthy and taking nutritional supplements her only option. She sees some sort of specialist who tells her what to eat and take. She maintains a very strict diet. There are frequent periods of fasting, consuming nothing but vegetable stock. Outside of those periods, she eats nothing but organic fruits and vegetables, though she recently told me that she is expanding her diet to include whey and nuts.



    I have a really hard time seeing her as an ethical type because she's so oblivious to... well... people. Her values are not really *her* values because she is simply obeying everything the Bible says. She does not come up with any of her own values, they have all been taught to her. When someone tells her something, she carefully measures it against her current beliefs and if it makes sense to her, she adopts and if it doesn't, she refuses to give it consideration.

    Any ideas?
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    I know people like this. I don't know for sure what type they are. My first reaction is ISFj/ESFp. And ethics can be very personal. What's ethical in one person's mind can be unethical in another's, and they can both feel very strongly about it. To me, that would be unethical, but I know a lot of people who consider it to be their ethical duty to push their personal code of ethics out there in the world as best they can, and it seems like that's Fi matched up with Se. Like, if they don't try to make others follow their personal code of ethics, than they think they are hypocrites or something. Because if it was *really* important to them, they'd do what they could to make it happen.

    SO I'd say Fi with a heavy dose of fundamentalist religion, mixed with Se.
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    She sounds like an ISFj gone wrong, but man I can't stand people like that.
    ENTj




    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    This description sounds freakishly like my grandmother [who I have typed ISFj], down to the bizzare eating habits.

    and are the functions that stick out most in the description.
    IEI subtype

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    I asked someone else who knows her to read the description and see if I'm missing anything... The first thing he said was, "i'm not gonna promote your insane need to categorize people into letters" lol and then he said that the description sounds just like her, but I left out the part about how she guilt trips people to get what she wants. Basically, if she decides that something should happen, she's totally oblivious to any else's desires. All she can see is her reasoning, and it doesn't cross her mind that other people might not share her perspective or values. She doesn't comprehend that she's being selfish or demanding. If she asks you to do something and you say no, she'll get this hurt look on her face and get all disappointed and confused. The person she's dealing with feels guilty because she just sincerely doesn't get it.

    This all sounds more negative than it ought to... she's very loving and hard working. In fact, she often tries to be more affectionate or friendly with people than they're comfortable with. She'll make absolutely any sacrifice to do what she truly believes is best for her loved ones.
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    creative Se without any question. probably Se subtype as well. ISTj is probably more likely than ISFj simply because this person seems very emotionally repressed.

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    Oh god I know an ISTj like that too. My eye started twitching as soon as I remembered her.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    I thought ISTp before, but it occurred to me that she could be ISTj and it makes a lot more sense
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    ISTps I know are pretty live-and-let-live types.

    As far as ISTj/ISFj goes it might depend on motivation. Like an ISFj would do something like that because it is part of her internal code of ethics. An ISTj would act like that because it's the proper way to behave and act.

    Socionics function: white logic - logic - logic of correlation
    objective, outwardly measurable relationships between objects - laws, regulations, rules, categories, quantifiable properties, logic, analysis, belonging, authorship, hierarchy, subordination, objective judgments
    Positive(short range):
    Reality, detail, detailed study, carefulness, severity, place in hierarchies, laws, decisions, instructions, a choice of the best variant, logic of the organization,
    Negative (long range):
    abstraction, generality, universality, system, classification, typology, the general laws, objectivity, true, validity, the analysis, logic of a science, criteria.
    That fits into your description pretty damn well.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    the hidden agenda is there, the role is there, the PoLR is there...

    She does this thing she worries about the most ridiculous things going wrong, asking all of these absurd "what if" questions until I'm like "I don't know, what if a cow fell out of the sky and landed on your head???"

    There are only three people who can get me to yell. She's one of them.
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    Default Re: type this description

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I have a really hard time seeing her as an ethical type because she's so oblivious to... well... people. Her values are not really *her* values because she is simply obeying everything the Bible says. She does not come up with any of her own values, they have all been taught to her. When someone tells her something, she carefully measures it against her current beliefs and if it makes sense to her, she adopts and if it doesn't, she refuses to give it consideration.
    this is why I think Ti > Fi
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    This thread is all wrong.

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    thank you honey...

    my brother said that the description I wrote of her is dead on
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    Yeah and that's what really gets under my skin about ISTjs. They have this idea of the proper way something is done, usually something taught to them by someone else and not something they've actually thought through themselves (or so it seems to me anyway), and NOTHING AT ALL can make the reconsider, compromise, look at any other possible way of handling things, etc. Their word is the word of God. Or the boss, or whatever. And whatever they say has to be the way it is and if you even consider something else, you are a Bad Person.

    I told you it reminded me of someone. "That's just SOP! It's SOP! That's the way it's done here! SOP SOP SOP!" *shudder* (SOP for those lucky enough to have never been caught in a corporate organization, is "standard operating procedure.")

    (rant over)
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    thank you honey...

    my brother said that the description I wrote of her is dead on
    Well Jesus agrees with ME, so I must be right.

    Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Yeah and that's what really gets under my skin about ISTjs. They have this idea of the proper way something is done, usually something taught to them by someone else and not something they've actually thought through themselves (or so it seems to me anyway), and NOTHING AT ALL can make the reconsider, compromise, look at any other possible way of handling things, etc. Their word is the word of God. Or the boss, or whatever. And whatever they say has to be the way it is and if you even consider something else, you are a Bad Person.

    I told you it reminded me of someone. "That's just SOP! It's SOP! That's the way it's done here! SOP SOP SOP!" *shudder* (SOP for those lucky enough to have never been caught in a corporate organization, is "standard operating procedure.")

    (rant over)
    yes, it's exactly like that except for she abides by the rules in the Bible rather than company policies and procedures
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Yeah and that's what really gets under my skin about ISTjs. They have this idea of the proper way something is done, usually something taught to them by someone else and not something they've actually thought through themselves (or so it seems to me anyway), and NOTHING AT ALL can make the reconsider, compromise, look at any other possible way of handling things, etc. Their word is the word of God. Or the boss, or whatever. And whatever they say has to be the way it is and if you even consider something else, you are a Bad Person.
    Yeah, this is how ISTjs actually act...

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    thank you honey...

    my brother said that the description I wrote of her is dead on
    Well Jesus agrees with ME, so I must be right.

    Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy.
    Okay, this thread is about my mom. Me and my brother have known her all our lives, and he said that the description I wrote was right on except for the fact that I needed to add the bit about how she guilt trips.
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    yeah... it makes perfect sense... I don't know why it took me so long to realize it lol

    immediate family it complicated to type cause you're so close to the situation
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    I do think ISTj is more likely than ISFj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    The only thing that makes me wonder if ISTj is correct or not is the way she expresses emotion. While she seems to be oblivious to the emotions of others, she is very expressive of her own emotions... frustratingly so...

    Could this be because she's Merry, or because of her Fi role, or because she's naive about her 5th function?
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    ISTjs are Merry and can be very Fe expressive, just watch them at a party for instance.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    the hidden agenda is there, the role is there, the PoLR is there...

    She does this thing she worries about the most ridiculous things going wrong, asking all of these absurd "what if" questions until I'm like "I don't know, what if a cow fell out of the sky and landed on your head???"

    There are only three people who can get me to yell. She's one of them.
    You wanted to yell but I feel like taking out a hammer which I'm sure will do her a service. For her own good.

    She has a pretty frightening attitude towards authority. Reading it makes my eyes go .

    (hammer thing is a joke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Yeah and that's what really gets under my skin about ISTjs. They have this idea of the proper way something is done, usually something taught to them by someone else and not something they've actually thought through themselves (or so it seems to me anyway), and NOTHING AT ALL can make the reconsider, compromise, look at any other possible way of handling things, etc. Their word is the word of God. Or the boss, or whatever. And whatever they say has to be the way it is and if you even consider something else, you are a Bad Person.
    Just tell them they are dumb and throw some Ne technical blabber, they will get all red, fluster and explode. Too funny to watch. Anyway, ISTj. I can't see an ISFj being SO strict.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I just feel really bad because for my whole life, she's wanted to be friends with all of her kids, while at the same time making them totally obedient AND totally independent... I just don't see how all of those things can work together. However, it makes sense that what she's looking for in friendship is Fe, wants obedience because of the content of her Ti structured thought processes (especially combined with Se... the Beta hierarchy thing), and wants us to be independent because of she values Se. It's never quite worked though... I'm fairly certain that my bother is INTp (ISTp seems to be the only other possibility) and my sister is INFj (most likely), so she never got the Fe she wanted from any of us. I think of my siblings, I have the best relationship with her, and I try to defend her when my siblings or anyone else complains... it just makes me really sad that she's pretty much rejected like she is, not just with my siblings, but with many of my relatives and many of her coworkers and other acquaintances as well. While she can be really irritating, the main thing I see in her is an intense desire to do what she believes she should, at all costs. She would sacrifice anything to do what she thinks is best for her loved ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I can understand why she didn't want to make it look like the widow had worked there. Especially if she's the one responsible for the books/records - think audits, which would be an accountant's nightmare. Dishonesty like that could really dig her into a hole professionally even if the partner was requesting it, and for what purpose? I'm sure the partner could find another way to express his condolences and help the widow out. I personally wouldn't have done it either.
    I don't know what I would have done. It wasn't so much that she didn't want to as the way she handled the situation and the people involved. I don't remember exactly what it was that her boss wanted to do, but at the time it didn't seem like all that big of a deal, like changing all of the books. I don't recall though.
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    It's difficult to take a step back when you're trying to evaluate a parent. I was focusing too much on how our values differ and writing too much of my description based on that... and it was my INTp brother who agreed with my description. I was also looking her... um... eccentricities... as her being sort of broken rather than being related to functions. Upon further consideration, ENFj makes the most sense.
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    I believe I mistook her stubborn adherence to her religious views as some sort of Ti framework, and I assumed that it was full of circular reasoning and blind faith simply because she's of average intelligence... I also assumed that her horrible taste (clothes, furnishings, ect.) and the way she neglects the appearance of herself and her home were the result of her being geeky and weird. It didn't occur to me that she could have a Si PoLR because she's been on this extremist diet for a while now (since her rheumatoid arthritis got worse), and she's done other extremist diets and workout plans in the past. Rocky said something though... something about avoiding becoming one of those weird health freak people who lose all sense of what's good for them... made me think of my mom, and I sorta labeled the idea "hmmm..." and put it on the back burner for a little bit. Then on Easter I was talking to my sister in law about my mom. We were talking about how Easter was her "cheat day" from her diet, and my sister in law was like, "Whatever, everyday is her cheat day." I questioned this, and she said, "When I was living there she'd say that she was cheating on her diet, but she did it like 5 days a week. When I mentioned it to her she just got all quiet and stopped saying that." (That sounds like a Si PoLR hit to me. ) She's also a horrible cook... which I had assumed was because she was raised by alcoholics... and she has a very difficult time denying herself of anything that she decides she's hungry for, as I've described of a Si PoLR in the past. To summarize, she has no sense of what is appropriate or reasonable when it comes to Si matters.

    Anyways, I see the Fe dominance (I was wondering why she was so Fe for an ISTj... I assumed she was compensating or something) and I see the Si PoLR, but I don't see the Ni. I think the reason is because I have a hard time separating Te and Ni. I think this will help me out a lot though (assuming I have her typed correctly now ). I think I've been attributing a lot to Ni that is actually quite Te related (though obviously functions work together in people and there really isn't a clear separation). Perhaps I should read up on Ni in ENFjs when I get a chance.

    Sigh.
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    Do you think that it's ironic that she's turned out to be an ISTj when the thread is titled 'so my mum's an ENFJ?' lol
    ISTj.

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    The description is 100% ISTj.

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    Yes, but... it's focused around her religious views and childrearing. If you met her you're be like, "Holy Fe Batman!" and a Si PoLR makes perfect sense for her.
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    Didn't you at one point think she was ISTp?
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Yes, but... it's focused around her religious views and childrearing.
    Even taking that into account, I think ISTj is more likely.

    If you met her you're be like, "Holy Fe Batman!"
    But is it "real" Fe?

    This is what I mean:

    The only thing that makes me wonder if ISTj is correct or not is the way she expresses emotion. While she seems to be oblivious to the emotions of others, she is very expressive of her own emotions... frustratingly so...
    Which is a very important point.

    and a Si PoLR makes perfect sense for her.
    Uh...no comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    If you met her you're be like, "Holy Fe Batman!"
    But is it "real" Fe?

    This is what I mean:

    The only thing that makes me wonder if ISTj is correct or not is the way she expresses emotion. While she seems to be oblivious to the emotions of others, she is very expressive of her own emotions... frustratingly so...
    Which is a very important point.
    I dunno, my brother and I discussed this and neither of us was quite sure if she's actually oblivious to others' irritation or whatever or if she just acts like she is so she can get what she wants. It's hard to describe... she's quite imposing, but she seems so naive when she does it, as if she doesn't realize what a huge favor she's asking or that she can't imagine why everyone wouldn't want to go do what she wants to do. And if you tell her that you don't want to do it, she gets this exaggerated look of disappointment on her face like a kid who just found out that her birthday party was canceled or something.

    Anyways, here's her easyTIM results (me and her and my sister discussed the questions) and some pics.



    Mom:
    ILE : 9.1
    LIE : 10.19
    IEE : 11.19
    EIE : 12.8
    SLE : 7.79
    LSE : 10.3
    SEE : 12.29
    ESE : 11.59
    ILI : 8.19
    LII : 10.5
    IEI : 9.7
    EII : 11.5
    SLI : 9.69
    LSI : 9.5
    SEI : 9.29
    ESI : 10.29






    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  37. #37
    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    If you met her you're be like, "Holy Fe Batman!"
    But is it "real" Fe?

    This is what I mean:

    The only thing that makes me wonder if ISTj is correct or not is the way she expresses emotion. While she seems to be oblivious to the emotions of others, she is very expressive of her own emotions... frustratingly so...
    Which is a very important point.
    I dunno, my brother and I discussed this and neither of us was quite sure if she's actually oblivious to others' irritation or whatever or if she just acts like she is so she can get what she wants.
    I somehow doubt an ENFj would act like this for an extended period of time.

    It's hard to describe... she's quite imposing, but she seems so naive when she does it, as if she doesn't realize what a huge favor she's asking or that she can't imagine why everyone wouldn't want to go do what she wants to do.
    Does/did she ever tell you something that absolutely has to be done RIGHT NOW? And if it doesn't, the world will instantaneously fall apart at the seams?

    She maintains a very strict diet. There are frequent periods of fasting, consuming nothing but vegetable stock. Outside of those periods, she eats nothing but organic fruits and vegetables, though she recently told me that she is expanding her diet to include whey and nuts.
    IME, this an expression of Id Si. I think Si PoLR would rather avoid the issue of health entirely, or at least not be able to keep it up so strictly (think Se self-discipline).

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    If you met her you're be like, "Holy Fe Batman!"
    But is it "real" Fe?

    This is what I mean:

    The only thing that makes me wonder if ISTj is correct or not is the way she expresses emotion. While she seems to be oblivious to the emotions of others, she is very expressive of her own emotions... frustratingly so...
    Which is a very important point.
    I dunno, my brother and I discussed this and neither of us was quite sure if she's actually oblivious to others' irritation or whatever or if she just acts like she is so she can get what she wants.
    I somehow doubt an ENFj would act like this for an extended period of time.
    I somehow doubt an ISTj would act so Fe for an extended period of time. She reminds me very much of my ESFj boss in that regard. He's the most expressive person I've ever known, and she's a close second.

    It's hard to describe... she's quite imposing, but she seems so naive when she does it, as if she doesn't realize what a huge favor she's asking or that she can't imagine why everyone wouldn't want to go do what she wants to do.
    Does/did she ever tell you something that absolutely has to be done RIGHT NOW? And if it doesn't, the world will instantaneously fall apart at the seams?
    No

    She maintains a very strict diet. There are frequent periods of fasting, consuming nothing but vegetable stock. Outside of those periods, she eats nothing but organic fruits and vegetables, though she recently told me that she is expanding her diet to include whey and nuts.
    IME, this an expression of Id Si. I think Si PoLR would rather avoid the issue of health entirely, or at least not be able to keep it up so strictly (think Se self-discipline).
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I believe I mistook her stubborn adherence to her religious views as some sort of Ti framework, and I assumed that it was full of circular reasoning and blind faith simply because she's of average intelligence... I also assumed that her horrible taste (clothes, furnishings, ect.) and the way she neglects the appearance of herself and her home were the result of her being geeky and weird. It didn't occur to me that she could have a Si PoLR because she's been on this extremist diet for a while now (since her rheumatoid arthritis got worse), and she's done other extremist diets and workout plans in the past. Rocky said something though... something about avoiding becoming one of those weird health freak people who lose all sense of what's good for them... made me think of my mom, and I sorta labeled the idea "hmmm..." and put it on the back burner for a little bit. Then on Easter I was talking to my sister in law about my mom. We were talking about how Easter was her "cheat day" from her diet, and my sister in law was like, "Whatever, everyday is her cheat day." I questioned this, and she said, "When I was living there she'd say that she was cheating on her diet, but she did it like 5 days a week. When I mentioned it to her she just got all quiet and stopped saying that." (That sounds like a Si PoLR hit to me. ) She's also a horrible cook... which I had assumed was because she was raised by alcoholics... and she has a very difficult time denying herself of anything that she decides she's hungry for, as I've described of a Si PoLR in the past. To summarize, she has no sense of what is appropriate or reasonable when it comes to Si matters.
    Read the Stratiyevskaya descriptions of Si in ENTjs and ENFjs. Not all ENxjs avoid thinking about or handling or talking about Si matters all of the time. Sometimes they run to the doctor over every little thing, sometimes they don't think to go to the doctor when there's something seriously wrong with them. Sometimes they whine too much about minor aches and pains, sometimes they work through mono or strep or whooping cough without even realizing it. Sometimes they pay no attention to their diet at all and live off of sugar or frozen pizza, sometimes they go on extremist diets. There's not much of a balance unless they have someone else around to see to it (or unless they go out to eat a lot ).
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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  39. #39
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    Well, all I can say is that the evidence is contradictory.

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    I can see the resemblence (between you and her... not to any type)

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