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Thread: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

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    Default Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart



    The badass of classical composers. I say estp.
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    estp

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    He's my favorite, but I always thought INFp or some sort of Fe type?
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    I remember he was typed by many people as ENFp. Why do you think he was ESTp?
    me

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    He's my favorite, but I always thought INFp or some sort of Fe type?
    Quote Originally Posted by ENFperator
    I remember he was typed by many people as ENFp. Why do you think he was ESTp?


    Oh god, why feeling?? This man had sociopathic tendancies. He would recklessly spend his money partying, which left him and his family in debt. His mother couldn't even have enough money to pay for heat for her furnace, so she eventually got pnemonia and died, though Mozart didn't really care, he just kept on partying. His wine addiction is probably what killed him so young and pennyless. He was also said to be a rather obnoxious person to be around, he knew he was good and wan't shy about bragging about it to people, and he readily cursed and people and drove them away.
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    I don't think love of hedonism is a lack of feeling. Pleasures of the flesh can be addictive to anyone.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    That's true Oyburger..

    But I'd be really happy if Mozart was truly an ESTp =D
    I watched the Amadeus movie on him and you're right... he does seem eccentric and wild and someone I'd like to be around.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    That's true Oyburger..

    But I'd be really happy if Mozart was truly an ESTp =D
    I watched the Amadeus movie on him and you're right... he does seem eccentric and wild and someone I'd like to be around.
    Neither Tom Hulce (who played Mozart in that film), nor the Mozart character he portrayed, are ESTps. Mozart is portrayed ENFp (or maybe ENXp) in the film Amadeus. But of course that doesn't exclude the possibility that the real Mozart was an ESTp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    That's true Oyburger..

    But I'd be really happy if Mozart was truly an ESTp =D
    I watched the Amadeus movie on him and you're right... he does seem eccentric and wild and someone I'd like to be around.
    Neither Tom Hulce (who played Mozart in that film), nor the Mozart character he portrayed, are ESTps. Mozart is portrayed ENFp (or maybe ENXp) in the film Amadeus. But of course that doesn't exclude the possibility that the real Mozart was an ESTp.
    Also that film veered from the reality, as most movies will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I don't think love of hedonism is a lack of feeling. Pleasures of the flesh can be addictive to anyone.
    No, but he was pretty confrontational/violent mouth/lack of regard for others, etc... no way was he a feeler. He had trouble with close relationships.
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    A number of biographers have actually come to the conclusion that Mozart was quite likely a person with high-functioning autism. Of course, there's no way to know for sure, but it would help to partially account for his prodigy years, and his ability to write out a score without errors (most composers need to edit their scores over and over and over again - as a result, their manuscripts look like all Hell; with Mozart, he could just notate what was in his head correctly the first time), as well as his anti-social tendencies.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    A number of biographers have actually come to the conclusion that Mozart was quite likely a person with high-functioning autism. Of course, there's no way to know for sure, but it would help to partially account for his prodigy years, and his ability to write out a score without errors (most composers need to edit their scores over and over and over again - as a result, their manuscripts look like all Hell; with Mozart, he could just notate what was in his head correctly the first time), as well as his anti-social tendencies.
    So, do you have a thought on his type? Agreements? Disagreements?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    A number of biographers have actually come to the conclusion that Mozart was quite likely a person with high-functioning autism. Of course, there's no way to know for sure, but it would help to partially account for his prodigy years, and his ability to write out a score without errors (most composers need to edit their scores over and over and over again - as a result, their manuscripts look like all Hell; with Mozart, he could just notate what was in his head correctly the first time), as well as his anti-social tendencies.
    So, do you have a thought on his type? Agreements? Disagreements?
    No. I don't think he's typeable.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    From the standpoint of just his musical output, ESTp seems extremely unlikely. Composers who have been considered to be dominant (possibly Wagner, Puccini, Liszt) create a very clear atmospheric quality. Mozart's music thrives on simplicity of texture (suppression of ) and melodic invention and brilliance (display of ).

    Anyhow, his letters don't sound like an ESTp, and the things he struggled with in life were clearly not characteristic of ESTp. An ESTp would have been good with practical realities, knowing which battles to pick, how to get along in the world around him....exactly the things Mozart was bad at.

    ENFp was probable, shown in his intuitive portrayal of the characters. ENTp is a possible alternate view, but not as compelling to me. His emotionality focused on taste, balance, very very Delta. I just don't hear it as ...although Keirsey still thinks he was ISFP because he was a composer.

    Anyhow, considering all the evidence, ESTp seems way out.

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    Jonathan, can you find some examples of Mozart's letter style?

    I'm interested in knowing his type. To tell the truth, I never liked Mozart or any of the pre-romantic composers, but that could be because of the reigning rational style of the times.

    I don't think the "light autism" arguments popular around here these days hold water. First of all, this is a fad diagnosis -- an imaginary disorder that is actually very evolutionally viable (a certain percentage of people who are callous to others' feelings would be able to achieve greater success, etc.). I am sure a relatively large percentage of the population (including, most definitely, myself) have some "mild form" of autism that makes us slightly more distant from people than is the norm, or makes us largely unresponsive to group emotions. This kind of "disorder" doesn't "distort" people's behavior so much that their type is unrecognizeable. If we can type people with "hyperactivity," "antisocial behavior," and "abnormal intelligence," we can type people with "mild autism."

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    "Fair enough," Rick.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Jonathan, can you find some examples of Mozart's letter style?
    http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/lwam110.txt

    If we can type people with "hyperactivity," "antisocial behavior," and "abnormal intelligence," we can type people with "mild autism."
    To be honest I think people can still have anti-social disorder, and like baby said, Mozart had qualities of it.
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    Just to clarify, the fact that he may have been autistic, is not the reason I don't think Mozart is typeable. I think anyone who was dead so long before Socionics even existed (basically, anyone who no one alive today has ever met) is untypeable. Time obscures and distorts type far more efficiently and totally than any mental disorder. That won't stop anyone from trying (this includes myself), but I don't think we should work under any pretense that the type we arrive at using what we know about historical figures is any indication of what type they actually were.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Just to clarify, the fact that he may have been autistic, is not the reason I don't think Mozart is typeable. I think anyone who was dead so long before Socionics even existed (basically, anyone who no one alive today has ever met) is untypeable. Time obscures and distorts type far more efficiently and totally than any mental disorder.
    True, but... if there are original letters of his and biographical info from his contemporaries, it can be attempted . At least we're not dealing with someone like Santa Claus or Adam and Eve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    True, but... if there are original letters of his and biographical info from his contemporaries, it can be attempted .
    Of course -- what matters is the amount and quality of the available information, not the distance in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    At least we're not dealing with someone like Santa Claus or Adam and Eve.
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    True, but... if there are original letters of his and biographical info from his contemporaries, it can be attempted .
    Of course -- what matters is the amount and quality of the available information, not the distance in time.
    What about the letters above?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    At least we're not dealing with someone like Santa Claus or Adam and Eve.
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    lmao
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    At least we're not dealing with someone like Santa Claus or Adam and Eve.
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    I have to disagree with you on this one. Santa clearly VI's as a SEI. Was Lucifer a LSI or SLE (suggestive effect on Eve)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    Santa Claus is SEI; I will fight this to the death!
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    Santa Claus is SEI; I will fight this to the death!
    I hate to be the one to break it to you Gilligan but you have to learn sometimes... Santa Claus isnt real! *gives Gilligan a tissue* I'm sorry your parents never told you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Noah, on the other hand, was clearly an ILE.

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    lmao. This is hilarious.

    PS! I agree with ESE for Santa.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Noah? NeFi to the max!

    And when's the last time you saw a Rational person trying to climb down a chimney?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    Noah? NeFi to the max!

    And when's the last time you saw a Rational person trying to climb down a chimney?
    I dunno, he seemed far-fetched to the extreme. I mean -- 1 pair of each species, 7 head of each herbivore, a big boat full of food for an unknown amount of time... and, of course, the characteristic beard (you know he had a beard, right?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    At least we're not dealing with someone like Santa Claus or Adam and Eve.
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    I can't remember if anyone considers hidden agendas valid, but by them Eve would have to have been SEI or IEI for the desire of understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Austy
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    At least we're not dealing with someone like Santa Claus or Adam and Eve.
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    I can't remember if anyone considers hidden agendas valid, but by them Eve would have to have been SEI or IEI for the desire of understanding.
    Consider the context, though. Lucifer was offering her power as a result of the knowledge. That points to a hidden agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Quote Originally Posted by Austy
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    At least we're not dealing with someone like Santa Claus or Adam and Eve.
    ESE, SLI and EIE, respectively.
    I can't remember if anyone considers hidden agendas valid, but by them Eve would have to have been SEI or IEI for the desire of understanding.
    Consider the context, though. Lucifer was offering her power as a result of the knowledge. That points to a hidden agenda.
    Power... Mmmm... Me wanna!
    When I was a child, I thought Eve was almost evil because of the consequences of her actions. At some point I changed my mind and decided that Eve was just being a human. I probably would have eaten the fruit (although the snake was way too suspicious to believe him) and I would have thought that anyone would have eaten it.

    Also, at some point I decided that it was unreasonable for God to punish for something like that. If you make people live inside a bubble without any proper entertainment, they will make something stupid sooner or later. And it was totally unreasonable to throw them out of paradise. It's like when your 2-y.o. kid throws an expensive toy on the ground after you specifically told him to be more careful and then you throw the kid out and say it was his fault for not acting as he should have. In hindsight, I suspect the Bible God is ISTp.


    Topic: Mozart might have been ESTp, because I find most of his music (which I have heard very little) rather aggressive and strong. It's also chaotic IMO. I've always been more of a Tchaikovsky kind of person.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Topic: Mozart might have been ESTp, because I find most of his music (which I have heard very little) rather aggressive and strong. It's also chaotic IMO. I've always been more of a Tchaikovsky kind of person.
    Aggressive and strong? Chaotic!? Maybe you should listen some more to Mozart, Kristiina ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Topic: Mozart might have been ESTp, because I find most of his music (which I have heard very little) rather aggressive and strong. It's also chaotic IMO. I've always been more of a Tchaikovsky kind of person.
    Aggressive and strong? Chaotic!? Maybe you should listen some more to Mozart, Kristiina ...
    Probably one of the more edgy and aggressive of his TIME.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Topic: Mozart might have been ESTp, because I find most of his music (which I have heard very little) rather aggressive and strong. It's also chaotic IMO. I've always been more of a Tchaikovsky kind of person.
    Aggressive and strong? Chaotic!? Maybe you should listen some more to Mozart, Kristiina ...
    haha. I'll put it on my to-do list. I might be confusing some of Mozart with Beethoven's harsh aggressive music. And I think I have heard some Mozart that was chaotically emotion-packed.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    At least Mozart's music is one of the most well-structured one can imagine. To call it "chaotic" is clearly misleading.

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    Maybe it's best to consider it "structured", but structed in a way to specifically make it seem all over the place (a lot going on at the same time, planned chaos).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Maybe it's best to consider it "structured", but structed in a way to specifically make it seem all over the place (a lot going on at the same time, planned chaos).
    I listened to one thing by Mozart.
    the way you describe it is very good and descriptive of his music. It's lighter than I remembered. And more high-class. For some reason it reminded me of fresh white wine.

    Just speculating. Structured chaos makes me think of ENTps. Ti for the structure and xxxp for the chaos. In comparison to him being ESTp, think the music is too light. It's more reminiscent of alpha casual than beta power-hungry. On the other hand, he could be some chaotic j type, someone who can express his emotions in music. That could be either Fi or Fe. INFj/ENFj.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Just speculating. Structured chaos makes me think of ENTps. Ti for the structure and xxxp for the chaos. In comparison to him being ESTp, think the music is too light. It's more reminiscent of alpha casual than beta power-hungry.
    Very good, Kristiina! I completely agree, and that's one of the main reasons I have thought that ENTp is a strong possibility for Mozart's type. I have worked quite a lot with a very gifted ENTp composer, and the similarities with him and Mozart are definitely there -- both in their attitude towards music and in the structure of their music. The clarity and exactness in that structure is also a reason for me to think that Mozart could have been an NT type, and the only likely type if that is true is of course the ENTp.

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    I think there’s both elements of “structure” and “chaos” in his music… actually, I think “subversion” is a more apt term than “chaos.” Mozart, like every other composer in the Classical period, grew up in an environment of structure. Like Bach, he worked well within the constraints of his contemporary sensibilities. This isn’t to call him a sycophant, though. During an entrance exam into a conservatory, Mozart was asked to do a study in counterpoint, modeled after Palestrina. This was a task he filed to accomplish. He followed all the rules of 16th century counterpoint, but it sounds like Mozart – not Palestrina. There’s a copy out there of the exercise done “correctly.” It’s nowhere near as interesting as Mozart’s innovations.
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    To be honest entp was my second choice, since that and estp are the only two types that make any rational sense, though entp is still a longer shot. The painstakingly precise structure of his work would suggest to me Ti actually, along with his meaness, and his attitude to the world is most definately exxp, with more of an emphasis of Se>Ne.
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