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Thread: King Baudouin

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    Default King Baudouin

    Please tell me how you VI King Baudouin, King of the Belgians until his death in 1993.

    I don't care about him, but I happen to be almost certain about his type, from his personality -- so please give me your input.













    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Well, I'm quite sure he's Delta, but can't decide between ISTp and INFj. He looks a bit like my grandad, who I though was ISTp.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    I thought ST, but didn't settle on any type. Most of the pictures are "fake" (smile and wave!).

    EDIT: Looks very IP in hindsight.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    a difficult VI, but i will say INFj.

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    my initial thought is ISTp, but I think delta is obvious.

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    My first guess would be LIE.

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    Thank you.

    So we got

    IXFX

    ISTp or Delta in general

    Delta ISTp or INFj

    INFj

    ST and IP

    LIE

    From what is known of his character, I considered ISFj as the most likely type. He took lots of decisions based on principle or personal loyalty rather than practicality or expediency. He never forgot what he saw as hostile or unprincipled actions by others. He flatly refused to visit Britain in the first 15 years of his reign - 1950-65 - because of the role the British had played in the forced abdication of his father. Especially in the beginning, he would not play the hand-shaking role of a politician or monarch, but publicly snub politicians or other people he felt had deserved it.

    Despite the "fake smile" pictures, one of his nicknames was "the sad king" precisely for not smiling much, especially in the early years. He was also extremely religious and he also flatly refused to sign abortion into law, which led to the unprecedented action of parliament declaring him "unfit to reign" for one day so that the cabinet could replace him and sign it into law.

    I could see INFj ethical subtype, which would be consistent with what most people thought.

    Any comments, especially by Rick?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default King Baudouin of the Belgians

    This post just reminded me...
    Let us not forget what the phrenologists had to say about him.




    King Baudouin of the Belgians
    (1930-1993)

    Let's now look at the King from the viewpoint of Phrenology.
    A first striking detail is the relative narrowness of the head compared to its height. This means that vital energy is somewhat lacking compared to the development of the mind; this development, in the direction of the asthenic type, gives some indication of the health problems which kept chasing the King and which have played a part in his premature death.
    The upper part of the skull however is extremely well built, showing a full development of the intellectual and moral faculties. On the front, the protuberances of Causality are evident. The development of this faculty enabled the King to be the sovereign of one of the most complexly structured countries in the world.
    Benevolence, located on the upper front, at the roots of the King's hair, is extremely well built out. and illustrates the innate goodness of the King's mind, his unbiased kindness and altruism. He always has converged thought and regard for the welfare of other people, expressing sympathy, kindly gentleness and compassion, particularly towards weak and oppressed people for which he showed a particular interest. The development of Benevolence is synergised by a equally well built out Affection on the back of the head, non visible on this picture.
    The top of King Baudouin's head shows an extraordinary development of Veneration and Spirituality. These two faculties determine the whole upwardly thinking of the King, whose deep spiritual and religious feelings were almost of a mystic nature.
    Conclusion: an extraordinary cranial development shaping a mind of the highest nobility.
    http://www.phrenology.org/boudewijn.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    From what is known of his character, I considered ISFj as the most likely type. He took lots of decisions based on principle or personal loyalty rather than practicality or expediency. He never forgot what he saw as hostile or unprincipled actions by others. He flatly refused to visit Britain in the first 15 years of his reign - 1950-65 - because of the role the British had played in the forced abdication of his father. Especially in the beginning, he would not play the hand-shaking role of a politician or monarch, but publicly snub politicians or other people he felt had deserved it.

    Despite the "fake smile" pictures, one of his nicknames was "the sad king" precisely for not smiling much, especially in the early years. He was also extremely religious and he also flatly refused to sign abortion into law, which led to the unprecedented action of parliament declaring him "unfit to reign" for one day so that the cabinet could replace him and sign it into law.

    I could see INFj ethical subtype, which would be consistent with what most people thought.

    Any comments, especially by Rick?
    I think ESI is certainly possible, but it would be a variety I'm visually not too familiar with (i.e. skinny ESI males). I can't see EII. I'd need to read about him, because I don't have a strong opinion yet based on these photos. If he is ESI, he might be compared visually to this Russian comedian Mikhail Zadornov (widely recognized as ESI by socionists here):
    http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...-8&sa=N&tab=wi
    (ignore the guy with the moustache further down -- that's a different person)
    Do you have a good link to info about Baudouin and/or a wider collection of photos?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    I think ESI is certainly possible, but it would be a variety I'm visually not too familiar with (i.e. skinny ESI males). I can't see EII. I'd need to read about him, because I don't have a strong opinion yet based on these photos. If he is ESI, he might be compared visually to this Russian comedian Mikhail Zadornov (widely recognized as ESI by socionists here):

    - -

    Do you have a good link to info about Baudouin and/or a wider collection of photos?
    I could not find better photos than the ones I posted. There isn't really a good site on him, nor any videos -- the information I have is from reading books and articles. A lot of the online stuff is very elementary. Perhaps a somewhat deeper article is the entry on him in the Dutch Wikipedia, bit even it doesn't say much.

    I see your point about Zadornov, but I'd be surprised if VI could be taken so far as to say that male ESIs are very rarely skinny.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I see your point about Zadornov, but I'd be surprised if VI could be taken so far as to say that male ESIs are very rarely skinny.
    I didn't say that they are rarely skinny. I just said that it's a variety I'm not as familiar with, due to completely random circumstances (male ESIs are one of the groups I know worst of all). Skinny people and heavy people have a different feel to them, so it's not a matter of VI, but of getting used to different type varieties and seeing through the ectomorph-mesomorph-endomorph shell.

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    @Rick

    Ah ok, it makes sense.

    Rather than make another thread on another Belgian King, could you please tell me what you think of Leopold II?















    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ISFj was the first thing that popped into my mind, though I didn't know why or who he is. I don't see IxxP at all.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Ah, I did find more photos of Baudouin (sorry if it's getting confused).

    They come from here:

    http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal...lgiumalbum.htm







    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    @Rick

    Ah ok, it makes sense.

    Rather than make another thread on another Belgian King, could you please tell me what you think of Leopold II?
    My first thought is ILE because of some of the facial expressions at the bottom, but let me read a bit about him first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    My first thought is ILE because of some of the facial expressions at the bottom, but let me read a bit about him first.
    Thanks.

    From his life I think he may be a good example of evil LIE.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    My first thought is ILE because of some of the facial expressions at the bottom, but let me read a bit about him first.
    Thanks.

    From his life I think he may be a good example of evil LIE.
    What do you know about him? I just read the Wikipedia article and didn't get too much out of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    What do you know about him? I just read the Wikipedia article and didn't get too much out of it.
    Well, his chief "claim to fame" is of having single-handledly created the colony that would become the Belgian Congo, later Zaire, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

    Leopold II used his own private fortune and his own personal efforts (that is, not those of the Belgian state) to hire Henry Stanley (the one who found Livingstone) to annex the whole Congo are to a pseudo NGO of the time which was also just a front for Leopold -- later he conned President Arthur and European powers, and bribed Bismarck, into recognizing that NGO (the "Congo International Association") as the actual owner of the whole area in 1884.

    It became the "Congo Free State" and Leopold II was its ruler-owner, it was his personal property, not that of Belgium.

    He invested his entire personal fortune there - and then some - and he almost went bankrupt before it started yielding a profit from the ivory and above all rubber. He had to finance the building of a 200-mile railway out of his own pocket before that, though, as well as a network of agents and soldiers in a country more than twice as big as Germany and France together.

    The local agents oppressed the local population for hard labor, but to keep costs down they were not supposed to waste bullets -- so they had to produce one human hand for each bullet they had shot. Missed shots were compensated by chopping living persons' hands off.

    Joseph Conrad worked as a steamboat captain in Leopold's Congo, and what he describes in Heart of Darkness is simply his experiences there -- Kurtz is based on the head of the advanced outpost in Stanleyville. There is very little fiction in the story.

    In Belgium, having finally recovered his investments and made a huge profit, Leopold started to invest in extravagant building in Brussels and elsewhere; lots of his buildings are still visible.

    Yet, a human-rights campaign had started in Europe and the US against what was happening in the Congo; Mark Twain even wrote King Leopold's Soliloquy: A Defense of His Congo Rule which was a sarcastic attack on the king.

    Eventually he ended up selling the Congo to the Belgian state in 1908, but not before burning all of his files.

    Having met him as a boy of 18, Queen Victoria found him too childlike, "not manly" and uncapable of inspiring respect on a woman. Yet, later, as king, he was known to be able to charm those he met in private, if he wanted to.

    So, this is it so far --
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Hm, that gives me a feel for his expansiveness and low risk-aversion... I would venture to say he was probably an extraverted intuiter. Regarding oppression of locals, how much of that can be attributed to his own policy-making? I would still lean towards ILE based on photos, but I don't yet have a feel for his personal behavior patterns. Did he have ideas that were very important to him that he tried hard to convey to others? Did he want to be known as a man of ideas who built for the future? Was he content to be known primarily for his "business" accomplishments and great achievements?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Ah, I did find more photos of Baudouin (sorry if it's getting confused).

    They come from here:

    http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal...lgiumalbum.htm
    Sorry, I still can't say one way or another .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Hm, that gives me a feel for his expansiveness and low risk-aversion... I would venture to say he was probably an extraverted intuiter. Regarding oppression of locals, how much of that can be attributed to his own policy-making?
    Since he burned all of his Congo correspondence and files, it's impossible to know for sure -- but he had to know what was going on. It became an international scandal, and Leopold's actions were all meant to derail investigations and counterattack criticism, never to really change what was going on. The best that can be said is that he did not care for the details as long as the result was satisfactory. IMO he knew what was going on and was responsible for everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    I would still lean towards ILE based on photos, but I don't yet have a feel for his personal behavior patterns. Did he have ideas that were very important to him that he tried hard to convey to others? Did he want to be known as a man of ideas who built for the future? Was he content to be known primarily for his "business" accomplishments and great achievements?
    I think you're on to something. Yes, he had one very big idea that he tried hard to convey to others -- the idea that Belgium had to have a colony of some sort to become a "great nation". He looked everywhere before deciding on the Congo region. And despite what people today tend to think, it was not obvious - and it was not always correct - that having an African colony was profitable. The Belgian bankers and industrialists had no interest in colonies before Leopold did all the work to get the Congo. Sure, he also wanted to make money, but he insisted on making money from a colony, nothing else, because that would add up to his - and Belgium's - "greatness".

    It is worth remarking that the Congo wasn't an obvious money-maker when Leopold started -- all he could get there was ivory, which was not enough. He really hit the jackpot when the growing automotive industry created a huge demand for rubber, but this is something he could hardly have foreseen.

    He also spent lots of money - lots - on building projects in Belgium, where then it becomes difficult to say if it was because of an idea of "greatness" for Belgium or just for the memory of his own accomplishments.

    It is worth noting again that Queen Victoria - almost certainly ESI in my opinion - had an immediate dislike to Leopold as a young man, finding him "odd", "unmanly" and someone who "said offensive things". That would make sense, of course, with him as ILE.

    I had problems seeing him as LIE, so if you think that ILE makes sense that's probably the best solution. Another good result for VI.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    If anyone's interested, a superb - and very easy to find - book on that is King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I had problems seeing him as LIE, so if you think that ILE makes sense that's probably the best solution. Another good result for VI.
    Well, you know -- "to each his own VI" . I think infantilism is definitely more an ILE characteristic, and his later bearded photos remind me of other ILEs, but what were your problems with LIE?

    If he was in fact ILE, I would expect a "harmless," "benevolent" idea behind his endeavors. If he went around trying to persuade everyone that colony-building was the way to go to preserve the country's position, that might fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Well, you know -- "to each his own VI" . I think infantilism is definitely more an ILE characteristic, and his later bearded photos remind me of other ILEs, but what were your problems with LIE?
    In the "big things" - apart from reported personal behavior, which might be attributed to his position as king - the main problem is precisely this "Belgium must have a colony" idea, which to me makes no sense (as it made no sense to many of his contemporaries), for which we was ready to invest all of his fortune and most of his time, and which yet was by no means a sound business case. It is often asked "how did Leopold manage to get possession of such a huge area, rather than France, Britain etc" -- and the answer is that neither the French nor the British nor the Germans thought that it was worth the effort.

    He could very easily have ruined himself in the Congo, and was saved by the unforeseen rubber boom --

    So this kind of single-minded pursuit of an idea that had a bad business case really makes LIE difficult to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    If he was in fact ILE, I would expect a "harmless," "benevolent" idea behind his endeavors. If he went around trying to persuade everyone that colony-building was the way to go to preserve the country's position, that might fit.
    Well, then I think it's likely -- as constitutional king of Belgium, he could not force the government to get colonies. He had this idea, even obsession, very early, but could not get anyone interested. I think it was like, " if nobody else cares, I'll get Belgium a colony on my own, and also make a profit".

    It could also be seen that he got convinced that the best way to make money was to have a colony, even if in the case of the Congo the business case was very highly questionable.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    So he was definitely not acting out of economic prudence but out of a concept. Or, at the very least, he viewed his activities as a very long-term investment -- not so much economic, but geopolitical.

    Visually, what goes against LIE is the reflective look on most of the photos. Usually LIEs look like they are in the middle of some activity (of course, I realize they had still photography back then).

    What kinds of things did he build in Belgium, and what was his rationale/motivation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    What kinds of things did he build in Belgium, and what was his rationale/motivation?
    Such things --




    The Royal Museum of Central Africa, to display artifacts from the Congo and serve as a showcase for the region in Belgium






    The Cinquantenaire Arch to celebrate 50 years of Belgian independence





    The esplanade in Ostende





    The Chinese Pavillion in Brussels





    The Royal Botanical Gardens in Laeken, near Brussels


    As for his motivations -- difficult to say. I'd guess a combination of his own personal pleasure (the gardens, the esplanade, the pavillion) as well as to contribute to Belgium's standing (the Arch) and to justify his own obsession with the Congo (the museum). I don't think he made much money out of those.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    To tell the truth, I can't tell much about him from the architecture. Can you?

    Speaking of architecture, there was an interesting ILE-SEI duo, in my opinion, in Barcelona -- Guell and Gaudi. Do you know much about them, by any chance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    To tell the truth, I can't tell much about him from the architecture. Can you?
    No -- again, his position as king, especially a constitutional one with limited power, makes it difficult. Altogether I'm inclined to think that your typing as ILE is spot on. I mean, if I were in his place, I can hardly picture myself bothering with stuff like the Chinese Pavillion, which seems to me over-indulgence in Si inspired by Ne, but again, I don't know what were the influences of the Zeitgeist. For instance, the center of Brussels - apart from the Grand-Place -- looks somewhat like a cheap version of Paris in the areas dating from Leopold II's time, and while he approved of that, it was hardly his decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Speaking of architecture, there was an interesting ILE-SEI duo, in my opinion, in Barcelona -- Guell and Gaudi. Do you know much about them, by any chance?
    Not really -- I know the basics, and I visited most of Gaudi's main works in Barcelona, but I know little about him as a person.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Leopold II looks like an ex-math teacher I had, which I typed as ILI, but ILE could just as well be true.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Thank you.

    So we got

    IXFX

    ISTp or Delta in general

    Delta ISTp or INFj

    INFj

    ST and IP

    LIE

    From what is known of his character, I considered ISFj as the most likely type. He took lots of decisions based on principle or personal loyalty rather than practicality or expediency. He never forgot what he saw as hostile or unprincipled actions by others. He flatly refused to visit Britain in the first 15 years of his reign - 1950-65 - because of the role the British had played in the forced abdication of his father. Especially in the beginning, he would not play the hand-shaking role of a politician or monarch, but publicly snub politicians or other people he felt had deserved it.

    Despite the "fake smile" pictures, one of his nicknames was "the sad king" precisely for not smiling much, especially in the early years. He was also extremely religious and he also flatly refused to sign abortion into law, which led to the unprecedented action of parliament declaring him "unfit to reign" for one day so that the cabinet could replace him and sign it into law.

    I could see INFj ethical subtype, which would be consistent with what most people thought.

    Any comments, especially by Rick?
    I agree from vi
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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