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Thread: Famous Beta Artists, Writers, and Thinkers

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    JuJu's Avatar
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    Default Famous Beta Artists, Writers, and Thinkers

    Ladies and Gents of Beta and elsewhere,
    Let's complile a list of history's great, Beta artists, writers, and thinkers.

    In no particular order:

    1. Shakespeare (Beta NF)
    "Strong humor" extraordinaire--but an INFp or ENFj?

    2. ..?

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    2. Michael Jackson -
    Famous talented musical genius, most likely Beta NF

    :Edit: picture added.


    That's an INFp smile

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    I'd say Shakespeare was an ENFj or INFp Ethical subtype, if we wanna go there...
    Hmm. The thing with recognizing Beta artists, thinkers, etc. is really cool for me -- it's as if I feel this spiritual connection with them that others do not. I've ALWAYS sympathized with Michael Jackson.. to an almost weird level .. especially in his interviews. I think he's just tragically misunderstood and I actually very much agreed with his comments on the innocence of children .. he seems very, very fantasy oriented and day-dreamy so I would actually place him as an INFp Ethical subtype as well.
    He seems an unhealthy one, for sure.. but still my identical =/

    3. Thom Yorke of Radiohead... wootwoot. That's a given. And yes, he IS a great.


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
    Johari
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    Carl Rogers, who pretty much killed psychoanalysis with a more empathetic and feeling based therapy, is probably INFp. I think Fritz Perls, who developed Gestalt therapy, might be ESTp. His style was very confrontational and he was often accused of being narcissistic toward his clients. He setup business without any psychological training at all and promised that he could basically do in a few sessions what would take psychoanalysts years to accomplish. His salesman like pitches and willingess to just take the plunge seems very beta.

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    Hemingway - ESTP - Writer
    INFP

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Anthony Kiedis - Front man of the Red Hot Chili Peppers (IEI)


    Friederich Nietzche - Philosopher (LSI)


    Bono - Front man of U2 (EIE)


    Ayn Rand - Writer and Philosopher (LSI)
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Nietzche was ENFj imho. Agreed on the others.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    This quote alone makes me inclined to agree with you:

    "It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"

    Self criticism in abilities of logical deduction? Ti Dual Seeking. And there's no doubt in my mind about him being Beta, Rational, or valuing Ni.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I actually believe Shakespeare was ENTj. The more I read by him, and about him, the more convinced I am of this.

    Kiedis I've seen typed as both INFp and ESTp... so there you go.

    Charles Dickens - ENFj


    Allen Ginsberg - INFp


    And I think I've found a new one... Devendra Banhart - INFp
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Shakespeare's plays obsession with ethical problems, along with their refusal to pass overt judgements regarding them--plus his characters' propensity for emotional self-justification, leave me almost sure that he's Beta *NF*. (Personally, I lean slightly toward INFp.)

    Why do you believe that Shakespeare's Gamma, Baby?

    Two more Beta writers:
    * Herman Melville, author of Moby Dick (INFp)
    * Nathaniel Hawthorne, author of The Scarlett Letter (INFp)

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    Edgar Allan Poe (INFp)
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu
    Shakespeare's plays obsession with ethical problems, along with their refusal to pass overt judgements regarding them--plus his characters' propensity for emotional self-justification, leave me almost sure that he's Beta *NF*. (Personally, I lean slightly toward INFp.)
    Shakespeare's theatre is theatre of pragmatism. I definitely see a facility with Ni in his work. The man sets up - not characters - but motivations and intuitive entities, then lets them play themselves out. The action progresses logically and systematically. His comedies are the best representatives of this, but the tragedies, histories, and romances work the same way. Look at how Richard III spells out his motivation in his opening speech ("Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of York..."). Likewise, the way Iago propels the moral and social decay of Othello. The conflict is a conflict of motivation and intention, not so much of personality.

    I don't see very much extraverted ethics in his work. In fact, I definitely see a bias towards Fi. If you don't think Shakespeare passes judgment on his ethical situations, look at King Lear. Who is the "good" daughter? Cordelia - the INFj (or ISFj, as some have typed her), because she is unable to placate her father's ego. Surely a Fe-type worth her salt would be able to play this ailing, feeble, and (by some accounts) delusional King's game. Cordelia definitely comes out on top morally. The moral situation is far from ambiguous in any of Shakespeare's plays. There is a good guy (Hamlet, Edward IV in Richard II, Cordelia, etc.) and a bad guy (Claudius, Richard III, Regan and Goneril). There are morally precarious situations (the false love professed by Lysander and Demtrius for Helena in Midsummer Night's Dream), and morally upright situations (the love being restored by Oberon). Sure his characters are able to justify their actions, especially in his later plays (which is what makes this such a juicy author for actors - there's usually some hint of humanity to latch on to), but just because Iago can justify his actions, does not make him any less reprehensible as portrayed.

    Shakespeare does not look kindly on Fe that does not fall under the domain of mere courtly niceties. He even goes so far as to make fun of it in Much Ado About Nothing. When Benadick hears that Beatrice (whom he previously told he would never marry) loves him, he says: "I will be horribly in love with her. . . . The world must be peopled. When I said I could die a bachelor, I did not think I should live till I were married." This is a hilarious line, if done right.

    All that said, none of that is really the reason I believe he is ENTj. I believe he is ENTj because there's a hell of a lot of extraverted thinking in that there Bard of Avon, as Transigent pointed out in this thread. Also, his life reflects that on an ENTj, rather than INFp. ENFj would be possible, but how to explain that Fi-bias?:

    - he was actually a very shrewd businessman; by 1597, he had earned enough to buy New Place, the second largest house in all of Stratford.

    - during the period of his life between 1585 to 1592 (known as "the lost years"), he supposedly worked as a schoolteacher, served as a soldier at the Battle of Zutphen under Sir Phiip Sydney, or was clerk to local lawyer.

    - when he writes about love, it falls somewhere just short of “romantic” – even in Romeo and Juliet you are struck by the fact that the love between the two protagonists is mostly pubescent carnal energy – “sex, sex, sex” not “love, love, love.” In his sonnets, his genius was to avoid saccharine sentiment: “In aith, I do not love thee with mine eyes, for they in thee a thousand errors note.”

    - he was a skilled rhetorician; reading Act 3: Scene 2 of Julius Caesar, you see this - Brutus' speech and then Marc Anthony's rebuttal immediately following. It's the envy of any politician.

    - he was a man consumed with his work, and was said to have been rather antisocial outside the context of the theatre; within a span of twenty years he wrote all of his thirty-seven plays as well as a great deal of poetry. All the while he was running his theatre company, directing and acting in his and other's productions, for the comapny which produced about fifteen plays each year.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I'll be damned if this is the face of an dominant:





    Ain't a fuckin chance in the WORLD. People only say that because he's wild and crazy.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    His demeanor in interviews reminds me of Prince... who also has been typed as INFp. At any rate, here's another ESTp - Henry Rollins of Black Flag:


    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Baby,
    You make a convincing argument for Shakespeare as Gamma--and you may be right.
    Think about this though. I'll take the beginning of King Lear as an example:

    Sc 1.1 Highlights the difference between deeply felt (Cordelia, Kent) and 'rhetorical' love (Goneril, Regan.) Lear commodifies love, (i.e. if you love me more than she does, I'll give you the "most opulent" piece of my kingdom.) Upon hearing Cordelia's short speech about how she does not love more than her filial bond permits, Lear declares, "Thy truth then be thy dower," (effectively, 'if I can't have the lion's share of your love, no one will.') Lear expects that, as he ages, Cordelia will become a 'mother' to him--a perversion of nature, (as noted by the Fool during the banquet scene.) Burgundy, who takes Lear's view of love, (i.e. as commodity--for financial gain, considerations of state,) refuses to marry Cordelia w/o a dowery. France, however, espouses a different view of marraige--that of spouse as companion; he says, "she [Cordelia] is a dower in herself." He takes her.
    *
    In this scene, doesn't Shakespeare present his audience with ethical binaries? I.e. Option regarding 'how best for humans to act?' Throughout the play, each binary takes a course that one might consider, very roughly, "logical," (i.e. 'if-then,') but the binaries' roots are 'ethical.'
    *
    Two examples of Shakespeare's open-endedness on problems that his plays pose, (both from King Lear, but these problems are typical of the later comedies, histories, and tragedies...) Many read Lear's relentless belief in the Divine Right of Kings as a direct critique of then-English King James. Is Lear's belief in the Divine Right of Kings justified? Is he just a man, or God's mouthpiece? What's an audience to believe? Shakespeare seems to justify it and refute it at once; (Goneril on Lear: "he hath ever but slenderly known himself," i.e. his 'humanity.') Conversely, the two most noble characters in the play--Cordelia and Kent--espouse the opposite view, (i.e. King as divine authority.) The truth seems to lie somewhere between the two binaries.
    *
    Case 2: In 1.2, as Edmund refutes Gloucester's pagan belief in astronomy, he also justifies it. (In 1.2 "my father compounded with my mother under the dragon's tail, and my nativity was under Ursa Major, so that it follows I am rough and lecherous. I should have been that I am, had the maidenliest star in the firmament twinkled on my bastardizing.") Refutes and corfirms the validity of astology at once--so what's an audience to believe? Again, the truth lies somewhere between.

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    Regardless, in my opinion, Shakespeare=an asker rather than a declarer.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    His demeanor in interviews reminds me of Prince... who also has been typed as INFp. At any rate, here's another ESTp - Henry Rollins of Black Flag:


    Holy crap, s-e-x-y

    Anymore hot ESTps for me to drool over, Baby?


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
    Johari
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    I'll be damned if this is the face of an dominant:





    Ain't a fuckin chance in the WORLD. People only say that because he's wild and crazy.
    lol. Is this the guy from Red Hot Chilli Peppers? He might be INFp, but there's no way he's ESTp.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
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    Creepy-aurora_faerie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    I'll be damned if this is the face of an dominant:





    Ain't a fuckin chance in the WORLD. People only say that because he's wild and crazy.


    im attracted to anthony ^.^

  20. #20
    Creepy-aurora_faerie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    I'll be damned if this is the face of an dominant:





    Ain't a fuckin chance in the WORLD. People only say that because he's wild and crazy.
    lol. Is this the guy from Red Hot Chilli Peppers? He might be INFp, but there's no way he's ESTp.

    sure there is.......

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    His demeanor in interviews reminds me of Prince... who also has been typed as INFp. At any rate, here's another ESTp - Henry Rollins of Black Flag:


    Holy crap, s-e-x-y

    Anymore hot ESTps for me to drool over, Baby?
    Could you please stop with this girly bullcrap? :wink:
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    lol FDG is feeling left out :wink:
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Kristiina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    lol FDG is feeling left out :wink:
    lol. hahahaaa....

    PS! Another excellent avatar! I salute you.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
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    Thanks
    Though I'm sure I'll quickly tire of this one too.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    oyburger's Avatar
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    I find pictures I like and mess around with them, I guess they just come out that way lol.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Creepy-aurora_faerie

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    i love oy and all her avatars and artistic side






    *drools over Fabie*

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    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    How do you find so many avatars that look like you Oy?
    I thought the same thing, especially her current avatar.

    They always look so pretty and elegant.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    WHATEVA FDG
    It's fine for guys to go all OMG THAT GIRL IS SO HOT all the damn time on forums and create Hot Girl Threads ...
    Ughh...

    Anyway. Yeah, I could mistake Oyburger for an INFp sometimes!


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
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    Gong Li (IEI ?)



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    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    ...

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    She looks really pretty in the second one!
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    It's fine for guys to go all OMG THAT GIRL IS SO HOT all the damn time on forums and create Hot Girl Threads ...
    Ughh...
    lol lets start a hot guy thread and see what we get. :wink:

    ((Just kidding of course...))

    or am I?

    Great idea starfall! Then we can all laugh at FDG when he goes OMG THAT GIRL IS SO HOT!!!!! j/k

    Regarding Gong Li, I feel that she's prettier than Zhang Ziyi. Could have been bigger than her if she had entered Hollywood earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    It's fine for guys to go all OMG THAT GIRL IS SO HOT all the damn time on forums and create Hot Girl Threads ...
    Ughh...
    lol lets start a hot guy thread and see what we get. :wink:

    ((Just kidding of course...))

    or am I?

    Great idea starfall! Then we can all laugh at FDG when he goes OMG THAT GIRL IS SO HOT!!!!! j/k

    Regarding Gong Li, I feel that she's prettier than Zhang Ziyi. Could have been bigger than her if she had entered Hollywood earlier.
    IF it were up to me, I'd have all the guys running around calling girls hot because it would give me the privilege to run around calling guys hot.
    Simply put - FDG, stop bitching!


    I know I've said it many times already, but it's relevant to mention that IMO Bill Bryson is ENFj and his wife (the bossy manager of the household) is ISTj. I read a book that Bill Bryson had written. It was lol-funny.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
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  35. #35
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Obviously, my comment was not out of jealousy, since otherwise I'd had to comment every "hot" that girls say, which is not the case, and Kristiina can comment how much as she wishes But, I don't think that you'll believe in my sincerity
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  36. #36
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Ahaha, they were just messing with you

    (I think)

  37. #37
    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Sure, FDG.... suuuuure.


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
    Johari
    Nohari

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