Ok, I can't wait anymore

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[CuriousSoul]

Complete lack of self confidence in all of my abilities.

Funny thing about this...my INTj cousin will often times look like he can't do something new to him, i.e. he will screw it up badly, and you often wonder if he's doing it on purpose. Then the next day, he's able to do it even better than I can!

According to the Russian forums:
Robes (INTJ) are confident in their talents, qualities, abilities, but they are not confident in the possibility to appear this outside.
Balzacs (INTP) are lost relative to their abilities, and only indication of these abilities from without makes them in Balzac eyes real.
oldforumlinkviewtopic-134-90.html

This would not seem to always be true, but there is something to this. I think this would follow from INTJs and INFJs having Ne as their second function, function of authority. I have ample faith in my talents, far too little in my ability to make use of them.

but you're young and are still discovering your place in this world. but indecision usually means P, not J.

Actually, indecision usually means Ne as a creative function. INTjs and INFjs are quite indecisive in everyday matters. People with Te are able to make quick decisions if they need to.

I think you are, in the main, correct. The whole P/J scale is badly messed up and something better is dearly needed.

The only thing I've ever been able to trust are my beliefs.

Not quoted verbatim, but I can't remember where I heard you say this! Anyway, it is this statement and this statement alone that proves that you are an INTj and not an INTp. This is what an INTp would say:

"The only thing I've ever been able to trust is what I know."

It seems as though true strength comes from the 2nd function, not the 1st function. This is what makes you fall in love with your dual. Duals depend on your strengths in the 2nd function to back up their 6th function. For example:

INTps want someone who is completely dependent on what they know to be true and their ability to make cold, rational decisions. Disagreement from others in this area is unacceptable.

INTjs want someone who is willing to believe them on their speculations and ability to see what possibilities exist for a situation. This also manifests itself as belief.

Have fun.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

You are correct again. Your genius knows no bounds. :wink: You have provided me with a whole range of most invaluable insights into the workings of the INTP mind, and for that I am grateful. Continuing in the same vein:

You are INFJ if:

You want someone who is willing to believe you on your speculations and ability to see what possibilities exist for a situation. (This also manifests itself as belief.)

You are INFP if:

You want someone who is completely dependent on your warm emotional support and your ability to make ethical judgements and regulate the emotional atmosphere. (This could be improved if I get feedback from INFPs, hint, hint)

[Cone]

You are correct again. Your genius knows no bounds. You have provided me with a whole range of most invaluable insights into the workings of the INTP mind, and for that I am grateful.

I think my ego just hit the maximum setting after reading this. Sometimes I really wonder if my hidden agenda is also, "to be loved." :wink:

And to return the compliment: you seem to have more sense than anyone I've ever met, CuriousSoul. I must say, I am grateful for the wealth of external information that you add to your posts.

So, do we all agree that MysticSonic is an INTj?


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[CuriousSoul]

So, do we all agree that MysticSonic is an INTj?

Your INTp friend,

Cone

Not so fast, my dear friend, not so fast.
I would still like to hear what he thinks at least. According to my theory "the complete lack of confidence in all of my abilities" could actually be an INTP trait...

[Cone]

Balzacs (INTP) are lost relative to their abilities, and only indication of these abilities from without makes them in Balzac eyes real.

Next time you find an INTp, compliment him on how good he is at something. More than likely, he will reluctantly nod his head and mumble, "I guess, ok." Now get a bunch of people to praise him for it. He will feel very flustered, blush, and will respond, "oh, I'm not that good. It's nothing." Now, ask him what he's good at. He will respond, "Oh, I don't know. Stuff, I guess." Now challenge him to something he knows he can do. You're on.

Whoever said INTps have no confidence in their abilities should be not shot, as that's what I originally intended, but he should realize the following:

I've heard on other sites that the MBTI INTJ is the most self-confident of all the types, and this is true to some extent. If I myself know I'm good at something, I have a tendency to overestimate my ability, thereby I tend to under-prepare for performances of my talents. And when I need to win, I can be quite a show-off. But, strangely enough, I am quite reluctant to try something I never tried before, for the fear of not being able to do it. This is alot like how INTps hate being wrong. I absolutely hate it whenever I try to do something and mess it up, and then some ass makes a rude comment. It seems to me that INTjs and INFjs can take this harsh criticism alot better than I can. Plus, INTps hate it when someone else can do something they can't.

Now, follow my logic on this one. Take a look at how I responded to this post. I completely denied the fact that I am lost in my abilities, but MysticSonic said that he has no confidence in his abilities. That's our subjective take on the topic, but the objective truth is completely opposite. MysticSonic only 'thinks' he can't do anything, and that's why he's conservative about showing his abilities. I think I know what I can and can't do, but I really don't. Now that I think about it, I can say that I'm very insecure about my abilities. That's why I show-off, to gain reassurance. That's why I like to throw my winnings in people's faces. That's why I can't lose. And that's why I hate what others can do that I can't.

But then why don't I like praise from others? Because I mostly interpret it as empty praise. And besides, praise evokes an emotion of happiness in myself, and the last thing I want to do is let anyone in on my emotions.

So then why is the 7th function often called the 'aggressive' function? Because we need to know that we are good at it, to keep anyone from criticizing it. So we throw it in people's faces, saying, "check me out! Look what I can do!"

For example:

IxFjs seem to have an obsession with being around people. They need to know that they 'fit in', and they are obsessed with being 'cool.' They are ones to know all of the social norms, like "guys wear their wrist bands on the left arm." God, whatever!

INxps, other than what I said, are very realistic in their imaginations. No fanaticism here! They can be very creative, but very esoteric in this manner. They are apt to dislike all Ne creations of wizards, dragons, and magical stuff like that.

IxTjs are reluctant to make quick judgements (not quite sure about this one.)

That's everything I could come up with.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[Cone]

You are correct again. Your genius knows no bounds.

I just read over my "INTj or INTp?" topic. According to that and what you said just now, I am, by far, the greatest bullshitter that ever lived. There are so many errors in that topic that I'm ashamed to have that thing still stewing away on this forum. And what's funny is that barely anybody even gave it a passing criticism. Why, though? Are you people afraid of disagreeing with someone that looks like they know what they are talking about? I even told you guys to rip it apart, but noone did. Looks like I'll have to rip it apart myself...

I think I've gotten alot better over these past two months, though.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[diamond]

You are correct again. Your genius knows no bounds.

I just read over my "INTj or INTp?" topic. According to that and what you said just now, I am, by far, the greatest bullshitter that ever lived. There are so many errors in that topic that I'm ashamed to have that thing still stewing away on this forum. And what's funny is that barely anybody even gave it a passing criticism. Why, though? Are you people afraid of disagreeing with someone that looks like they know what they are talking about? I even told you guys to rip it apart, but noone did. Looks like I'll have to rip it apart myself...

I think I've gotten alot better over these past two months, though.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

If you were the greatest bullshitter around then you'd be either enfp or estp!

Some of us have confronted you, albeit tongue in cheek . . .

[discourse]

that's funny, balze I really like female entps with their great sence of humor.

[CuriousSoul]

[So then why is the 7th function often called the 'aggressive' function? Because we need to know that we are good at it, to keep anyone from criticizing it. So we throw it in people's faces, saying, "check me out! Look what I can do!"

For example:

IxFjs seem to have an obsession with being around people. They need to know that they 'fit in', and they are obsessed with being 'cool.' They are ones to know all of the social norms, like "guys wear their wrist bands on the left arm." God, whatever!

INxps, other than what I said, are very realistic in their imaginations. No fanaticism here! They can be very creative, but very esoteric in this manner. They are apt to dislike all Ne creations of wizards, dragons, and magical stuff like that.

IxTjs are reluctant to make quick judgements (not quite sure about this one.)

That's everything I could come up with.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

I am afraid these theories just do not match reality. Maybe they apply to some IxFJs, but in many cases they certainly do not. I think if anything it is mainly simply about, the introversion/extraversion scale - or perhaps about the (Gamma) Quadra values - I have met a few INTPs who could fit your description. You need to know people if you want to To collaborate and to acquire.

[Cone]

Ok, look, the people I am attracted to are social misfits, so obviously they are going to act more neurotically than normal people. Yes, Pedro, they are conformists, but isn't that what being "cool" is? Maybe I should have clarified myself: the IxFjs I know are by no means "cool", but that's why they want to be.

I guess since I'm talking about a neurosis, I shouldn't overgeneralize; I forgot that normal people do exist.

You need to know people if you want to To collaborate and to acquire.

I'm sorry, CuriousSoul, but that was just a little hurtful...


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Cone]

Yeah, I dislike unlucky wretches that complain and complain, but I have a strong attraction to poor, suffering souls. It gives me the chance to direct my love and pity towards someone other than myself for once.

You know, sometimes I wonder if I'm not an INFj! :wink:

(No, I'm not doubting my type again...)


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[Cone]

But they normally do not act cool only when it is required. They also try to avoid it, at least the ones I know do.

This is strange indeed. The ones I know (my father and my INFj friend that you guys hear so much about) are always trying to be around people, trying to look "normal." Sometimes they do start on me for deliberately trying not to be cool, as they have always wanted to hang out with the cool kids. I don't know, maybe it's just me...

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[discourse]

I want buttons on my pants too.

Now that is funny, Pedro, and you earlier posted you have a dry humour.

[CuriousSoul]

But they normally do not act cool only when it is required. They also try to avoid it, at least the ones I know do.

This is strange indeed. The ones I know (my father and my INFj friend that you guys hear so much about) are always trying to be around people, trying to look "normal." Sometimes they do start on me for deliberately trying not to be cool, as they have always wanted to hang out with the cool kids. I don't know, maybe it's just me...

Cone, I am not so sure whether your INFJ friend actually is INFJ. He just does not sound like your average INFJ to me. Being obsessed about being cool is mainly about social status and thus about extraverted sensing Se. The quadras that value Se are Beta and Gamma. I have never, and I repeat never, cared about being cool. INFJs want to find private happiness, someone to love and a few good friends - but popularity per se, it just is not what most INFJs crave. The introversion/extraversion scale is tricky - believe me I have met shy and socially inept extraverts and annoyingly talkative introverts. Extraversion is not about being sociable or having social skills but about living in a "objective" world - and thus constantly comparing oneself to others and norms of popularity may well indicate extroversion.

Just read the Quadra descriptions once again and ask yourself whether your INFJ friend really is from the Delta - or perhaps from Gamma or Beta.


alpha quadra: ambience, good feeling, openness, sun, full bloom, summertime. either "everything's in its right place" or suffocation insults between friends show affection. relate to BPM 1 in terms of feeling like the garden of eden. ideal mood: everything's all good, lets just chill and explore.

beta quadra: buildup to some impending event, social status, us versus them (whos in the in-crowd), clouds gathering, first signs of decay, fall. either "the world sucks" or "the world sucks but if you look at it, its still funny, laughter makes it bearable." insulting others solidifies power. BPM 2 in terms of feeling like the world is a wasteland, a farce, an incredibly beautiful tragedy. ideal mood: life sucks so lets just hang out, make the best of what we have, and laugh.

gamma quadra: power, struggle against that which would oppress you, loyalty and family ties, rain or snow, winter, being stronger than the elements. either "the storm is everywhere and relentless" or "we're stronger than they are, we are fully capable of taking them by storm, or holding down the fort." lots of inside jokes. insulting others together lets you know you are "in." BPM 3 in terms of we can beat this thing; we have the ability. "we have the power to do what we want, but if we don't use it, they'll try to take it from us. if you're good enough, you can ride with us" ideal mood: life is short, lets party, lets all get together and do the things we love doing.

delta quadra: joy/sorrow, aftermath of a huge event, love and devotion, either "hooray, we made it!" or "though the battle was won, I feel worn out" springtime, and rest. insults for purely personal motives, to express personal feeling. BPM 4 in terms of feeling relif after a great burden or trial. "i've been through so much;" feeling like the war is finally over. ideal mood: glad you could make it, sit down, relax.

Or even this funny one:

Quadrable 1 - "ENTp, ISFp, ESFj, INTj" - Democratic
A Sense of childness, constantly being re-newed, wholeness, "opposite
of confusion".

Quadrable 2 - "ENFj, ISTj, ESTp, INFp" - Autocratic
Darkness, shadows, power, victory, strithing to reach the top,
ruthlessness, a old time.

Quadrable 3 - "ESFp, INTp, ENTj, ISFj" - Democratic
Fashion, what is right, what is not, sexuality, hard-core, confusion,
depth, the good, the bad.

Quadrable 4 - "ESTj, INFj, ENFp, ISTp" - Autocratic
Death, Dark horses, Alot of Confusion, Anger, Fantasy, Re-Birth.
oldforumlinkviewtopic-271-0.html


Another reason that got me thinking is that INFJs and INTPs may easily develop some difficulties in their communication, because as INFJs belong to the Gulenko's Sincere group in terms of our communication skills, we would typically try to get close to the inner life of our loved ones - and at least to some extent this would happen also with our close friends. According to both socionics theory, your own words, and my experiences with a certain female INTP, this is NOT what INTPs want.

On the other hand if your "INFJ" friend were your ENFJ friend and Se were his estimative function, or hidden agenda, rather than vulnerable function, PoLR - many thing could make much more sense. The similar values and more compatible communication skillls (passionate and cool) would tend to make the friendship in many ways easier. In theory relations of supervision are one of the worst - yet in my experience especially as friendships they may work fine - and generally much better than Relations of Benefit. If you want I can write more in private... What you could still do is to read the following article carefully. A male INTP describes his positive experiences with ENFJs - and his lack of sympathy with INFJs...
http://socionika.com/tipolog/hamlet.htm

Of course there are all kinds of INFJs, and never having met neither you nor your friend I may well be wrong...

[Cone]

Well, my stepdad decided to delete everything I had written in reply to your post, CuriousSoul, so I really don't feel like retyping everything. But yes, I would like to speak with you some more on this issue in private. So send me a private message or something...I'll explain everything there.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[MysticSonic]

Hey, RMC, could you make an assessment of my type via the two pictures on here? I believe the first picture mosty clearly represents my actual self--although you can use both.

[Angel von Himmel]

Where are the pictures?

[Angel von Himmel]

I found one, just need to find the other one ...

[Angel von Himmel]

Here's a different picture with me, and my friend, whom I'm pretty sure is an INTj, as he is completely obssesed with being clean and healthy.

Yeah, we're pretty young.

[Angel von Himmel]

Are you the one on the right or the left?

[Angel von Himmel]

If you are the one on the left, you look INFj ...



But taking the sudden influx of people who look like INFjs and claim to be more T, I would not argue against INTj ...

[MysticSonic]

Bump.

[MysticSonic]

I just got a digital camera:

[Cone]

I just got a digital camera:

Lucky you. I've always wanted to take pictures of my friends and post them here for V.I. and for fun.

And I'm still waiting for Transigent to get one...

[MysticSonic]

Lucky me.

[MysticSonic]

Interesting, another person voted me as INTp; why did I see this coming after the last few debates I've had?

[Rocky]

Mystic, my vote is in. I think you are a pensive, logical ENTP.

[Koneko]

Our faces look as if expecting to die or to be killed at any moment, he looks too calm for an INFj.

INTj all the way... *votes*

[MysticSonic]

Bump for new opinions.

[Rocky]

How about this one...

You're an Introverted Thinking type with Intuition and a Percieving mind set.

Heheehe... I finally got it!

[stefana]

//

[Creepy-]

Okay, try my highly scientific approach :wink: :

Do my posts hit your PoLR? HarryBottom says that my posts ooze .

I do think you sound INTj, though.

Just wondering if you know of anywhere that has information on how the PoLR manifests itself in the various types? My search has turned up nothing so far.

[MysticSonic]

"Do my posts hit your PoLR? HarryBottom says that my posts ooze Extraverted Sensing . "

No, not really, but I am intimidated by ESTps in real life.

[MysticSonic]

Bump.

[Rocky]

Mystic, you mean you haven't realized that you're an SLI yet?

j/k... LII.

Don't you know the system enough by now to be confident of your type? Both functionally and relationship wise?

[MysticSonic]

I just like to check up on the opinion of everyone else once in a while.

[Angel von Himmel]

Okay, try my highly scientific approach :wink: :

Do my posts hit your PoLR? HarryBottom says that my posts ooze .

I do think you sound INTj, though.

Just wondering if you know of anywhere that has information on how the PoLR manifests itself in the various types? My search has turned up nothing so far.

http://socion.info "Hidden Agenda's secret" and "Socionic model of the psyche" ...