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Thread: Caligula

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    Default Caligula: ENTp? ENFj? Your Mom?

    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula
    Outlandish stories cluster about the raving emperor, illustrating his excessive cruelty, multiple and peculiar sexual escapades (both heterosexual and homosexual, at least as claimed by Suetonius, Cal. 36), or disrespect toward tradition and the Senate. Sources describe his incestuous relationships with all three of his sisters, his disembowelment of his favorite sister in order to get to the child he impregnated her with resulting in her death, his subsequent declaring her to be a goddess, his selling to the highest bidder of the wives of high ranking Senate members during sexual orgies, his laughable military campaigns in the north, the plan to make his horse Incitatus a consul, and his habit of roaming the halls of his palace at night ordering the sun to rise. He also named his horse as a priest, and gave it a house to reside in, complete with a marble stable, golden manger, and jewel necklaces; and he later talked of making his horse a member of the Senate. He opened a brothel in his palace and had a habit of taking Senate members' wives with him to his private bedroom during social functions, while the husbands could merely look on as they left together, then he would recount the sexual acts he performed with the wives for all to hear, including her husband.

    He comes across as aloof, arrogant, egotistical, and is generally portrayed as insane. He is said to have cried "I wish the Roman people had but a single neck" when an arena crowd applauded a faction he opposed. [18] It is also said that when there were not enough convicts to fight lions & tigers in arena, he threw in some spectators. Suetonius wrote that he often uttered "Let them hate me, so long as they fear me", and described this as a familiar line of the tragic poet (Accius); however, Suetonius also attributes the utterance of this line to Tiberius.

    What is documented is that he declared himself a living god, and even had a bridge constructed between his palace and Jupiter's Temple. He is also said to have made it a crime to look down on him from above, and not to leave him everything in a will. To the Roman people, this was considered nothing less than blasphemy.

    Caligula was also incredibly self-indulgent, dramatic proof of which has been found with the discovery of two sunken ships at the bottom of Lake Nemi. These two ships were by far the largest vessels in the ancient world; in fact their size was not even rivaled until after the Renaissance.[citations needed] The smaller of the ships was designed as a temple dedicated to Diana (the Roman equivalent of Artemis). The larger ship was essentially an elaborate floating palace that counted marble floors and plumbing among its amenities, the sole role of which was to satisfy Caligula's increasingly hedonistic behavior.
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    mmmm...antisocial ISxp?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I've read a lot on Caligula, including the only eyewitness report of his behavior, by Philo of Alexandria, and Roman historians. That bit on Wikipedia is not very good.

    I think he was ESTp but very close to ENTp.

    The Russians type him as ENFj. I think that's possible, but the way Tacitus described him - "his impulsive ideas shifted like a weather-cock" - makes me prefer an EP.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Peter read it to me last night and I cracked up.

    It would have sucked to be born back then (prolly not as much as it would have sucked to be born here as a Puritan or a lot of other times in history though I suppose).
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    This is what Philo wrote of his encounter with Gaius (Caligula) -- most interesting bits are highlighted.

    XLIV. It is worth while to make mention of what we both saw and heard, when we were sent for to encounter a contest on behalf of our national constitution; for the moment that we entered into the presence of the emperor we perceived, from his looks and from the state of agitation in which he was, that we had come not before a judge but before an accuser, or rather I should say before the open enemy of those whom he looked upon as opposed to his will; for it would have been the part of a judge to sit with assessors selected because of their virtue and learning, when a question of the greatest importance was being investigated which had lain dormant for four hundred years, and which was now raised for the first time among many myriads of Alexandrian Jews; and it would have been proper for the contending parties with their advocates to stand on each side of him, and for him to listen to them both in turn; first to the accusation and then in turn to the defense, according to a period measured by water, and then retiring the judge should deliberate with his assessors as to what he ought publicly to deliver as his sentence on the justice of the case; but what was actually done resembled rather the conduct of an implacable tyrant, exhibiting uncontrolled authority and displeasure and pride.

    For besides that he in no particular behaved in the manner which I have just been describing as proper, having sent for the managers of two gardens, the Maecenatian and the Lamian garden, and they are near one another and close to the city, in which he had spent three or four days, for that was the place in which this theatrical spectacle, aimed at the happiness of a whole nation, was intended to be enacted in our presence, he commanded all the outer buildings to be opened for him, for that he wished to examine them all minutely; but we, as soon as we were introduced into his presence, the moment that we saw him, bent to the ground with all imaginable respect and adoration, and saluted him calling him the emperor Augustus; and he replied to us in such a gentle and courteous and humane manner that we not only despaired of attaining our object, but even of preserving our lives; for, said he, "You are haters of God, inasmuch as you do not think that I am a god, I who am already confessed to be a god by every other nation, but who am refused that appellation by you." And then, stretching up his hands to heaven, he uttered an ejaculation which it was impious to hear, much more would it be so to repeat it literally.

    And immediately all the ambassadors of the opposite portion were filled with all imaginable joy, thinking that their embassy was already successful, on account of the first words uttered by Gaius, and so they clapped their hands and danced for joy, and called him by every title which is applicable to any one of the gods.

    XLV. And while he was triumphing in these super-human appellations, the sycophant Isidorus, seeing the temper in which he was, said, "O master, you will hate with still juster vehemence these men whom you see before you and their fellow countrymen, if you are made acquainted with their disaffection and disloyalty towards yourself; for when all other men were offering up sacrifices of thanksgiving for your safety, these men alone refused to offer any sacrifice at all; and when I say, 'these men,' I comprehend all the rest of the Jews." And when we all cried out with one accord, "O Lord Gaius, we are falsely accused; for we did sacrifice, and we offered up entire hecatombs, the blood of which we poured in a libation upon the altar, and the flesh we did not carry to our homes to make a feast and banquet upon it, as it is the custom of some people to do, but we committed the victims entire to the sacred flame as a burnt offering: and we have done this three times already, and not once only; on the first occasion when you succeeded to the empire, and the second time when you recovered from that terrible disease with which all the habitable world was afflicted at the same time, and the third time we sacrificed in hope of your victory over the Germans."

    "Grant," said he, "that all this is true, and that you did sacrifice; nevertheless you sacrificed to another god, and not for my sake; and then what good did you do me? Moreover you did not sacrifice to me." Immediately a profound shuddering came upon us the first moment that we heard this expression, similar to that which overwhelmed us when we first came into his presence. And while he was saying this he entered into the outer buildings, examining the chambers of the men and the chambers of the women, and the rooms on the ground floor, and all the apartments in the upper story, and blaming some points of their preparation as defective, and planning alterations and suggesting designs, and giving orders himself to make them more costly and then we being driven about in this way followed him up and down through the whole place, being mocked and ridiculed by our adversaries like people at a play in the theater; for indeed the whole matter was a kind of farce: the judge assumed the part of an accuser, and the accusers the part of an unjust judge, who look upon the defendants with an eye of hostility, and act in accordance with the nature of truth. And when a judge invested with such mighty power begins to reproach the person who is on his trial before him it is necessary to be silent; for it is possible even to defend one's self in silence, and especially for people who are able to make no reply on any of the subjects which he was now investigating and desiring to understand, inasmuch as our laws and our customs restrained our tongues, and shut and sewed up our mouths.

    But when he had given some of his orders about the buildings, he then asked a very important and solemn question; "why is it that you abstain from eating pig's flesh?" And then again at this question such a violent laughter was raised by our adversaries, partly because they were really delighted, and partly as they wished to court the emperor out of flattery, and therefore wished to make it appear that this question was dictated by wit and uttered with grace, that some of the servants who were following him were indignant at their appearing to treat the emperor with so little respect, since it was not safe for his most intimate friends to do so much as smile at his words. And when we made answer that, "different nations have different laws, and there are some things of which the use is forbidden both to us and to our adversaries;" and when some one said, "there are also many people who do not eat lamb's flesh which is the most tender of all meat," he laughed and said, "they are quite right, for it is not nice." Being joked with and trifled with and ridiculed in this manner, we were in great perplexity; and at last he said in a rapid and peremptory manner, "I desire to know what principles of justice you recognize with regard to your constitution."

    And when we began to reply to him and to explain it, he, as soon as he had a taste of our pleading on the principles of justice, and as soon as he perceived that our arguments were not contemptible, before we could bring forward the more important things which we had to say, cut us short and ran forward and burst into the principal building, and as soon as he had entered he commanded the windows which were around it to be filled up with the transparent pebbles very much resembling white crystal which do not hinder the light, but which keep out the wind and the heat of the sun. Then proceeding on deliberately he asked in a more moderate tone, "What are you saying?" And when we began to connect our reply with what we had said before, he again ran on and went into another house, in which he had commanded some ancient and admirable pictures to be placed.

    But when our pleadings on behalf of justice were thus broken up, and cut short, and interrupted, and crushed as one may almost say, we, being wearied and exhausted, and having no strength left in us, but being in continual expectation of nothing else than death, could no longer keep our hearts as they had been, but in our agony we took refuge in supplications to the one true God, praying him to check the wrath of this falsely called god. And he took compassion on us, and turned his mind to pity. And he becoming pacified merely said, "These men do not appear to me to be wicked so much as unfortunate and foolish, in not believing that I have been endowed with the nature of God;" and so he dismissed us, and commanded us to depart.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    He was a completely sadistic psycho, aside from that I think he was some sort of Ep.
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    Oh, ESTp all the way.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    estp. entp's are not that obsessed with power and sensual delights.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Well, I think ENTps, being the dual of an dominant type, are just as inclined to hedonism as the next guy. The thing that tips me off is the flagrant attitude towards authority; an ENTp might flex his muscles when in power, but not to the point that people overlook his intellectual potential/self-image.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Caligula=ESTp

    By the way, that entire Suetonius book, the Twelve Caesars, is a hilarious read... The section on Nero is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read in my life!

    (Nero=ENFj, imho)

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    Suetonius is fun to read but not everything he says is true; you must pay attention when he says things like "some said" etc, as with Caligula making his horse consul etc.

    For a more historical narration of the period, Tacitus is better although the bits on Caligula are lost, apart from occasional comments in other parts.

    As for Nero, I had previously typed him as ISFp some time ago but that was sloppy thinking, I now think. Perhaps ENFj is best.
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    I think ENFj. ESTps enjoy power, sure, but the theatrics make him ENFj. Also, the bit in Philo's encounter where Caligula asks, "Why don't your people eat pig's flesh?" Why would an ESTp ask this? They wouldn't-- there is no result and nothing real is gained-- I doubt very much that an ESTp would find profit in socially humiliating another person/group! Why would an ENFj ask this? Because it makes a profound impression on other people--even if it is a bad one.

    Edit to Add: Let's not forget that the system of Socionics is meant to examine common everyday people and that larger than life personalities that are often found in celebrities and the famous are very often out of the scope of Socionics.

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    Well, there is personal profit...

    But I think ESTp is too easy of an answer. Perhaps ESFp? Or am I stretching here
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    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    I think ENFj. ESTps enjoy power, sure, but the theatrics make him ENFj. Also, the bit in Philo's encounter where Caligula asks, "Why don't your people eat pig's flesh?" Why would an ESTp ask this? They wouldn't-- there is no result and nothing real is gained-- I doubt very much that an ESTp would find profit in socially humiliating another person/group! Why would an ENFj ask this? Because it makes a profound impression on other people--even if it is a bad one.
    First, I think ENFj is a plausible type. My main reason for preferring ESTp is that, from Philo's description and from comments by other historians, I get more the impression of an EP type.

    As for the result and gains -- well, I see that scene as Caligula essentially having fun at the expense of Philo and his party. Like bullying the nerdy kids. It all depends on what Caligula was thinking. If he was essentially putting an act for the sake of the other people present, that would be more ENFj. If he wanted to have a good time, he would relax precisely by exercising his dominant function ie Se if he is ESTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    Edit to Add: Let's not forget that the system of Socionics is meant to examine common everyday people and that larger than life personalities that are often found in celebrities and the famous are very often out of the scope of Socionics.
    Well, larger than life personalities also have a type -- I agree that this makes it more difficult on one hand, but on the other hand, especially in the case of a near-absolute ruler, it makes it easier since he'd more naturally tend to use his stronger functions.

    EDIT: ah, and looking at dichotomies, Caligula in that scene was very clearly Result (ESTp) rather than Process (ENFj).
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    As for the result and gains -- well, I see that scene as Caligula essentially having fun at the expense of Philo and his party. Like bullying the nerdy kids. It all depends on what Caligula was thinking. If he was essentially putting an act for the sake of the other people present, that would be more ENFj. If he wanted to have a good time, he would relax precisely by exercising his dominant function ie Se if he is ESTp.
    That's really hard to determine.
    I think I will go ahead and say he's untypable given that the information about him is sketchy at best. Although, I really don't see much point in typing him- there is nothing to relate to in his character and no one is going to get a more clear picture of their type with his exact typing. In fact, whatever type we deem him is only going to help propagate a negative stereotype of that particular type. Well, let's hope that doesn't happen, but you know, people are ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    I doubt very much that an ESTp would find profit in socially humiliating another person/group!
    ...Do you even know any SLEs? If you do, then they probably aren't sensory subtypes
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I think I know one guy who I think is an SLE. We have a very taxing relationship. He's very aimless, extremely negative, and INCREDIBLY irresponsible. but this is what makes me really upset about him-- when he gets drunk he comes to me and seems to ask for advice! He wants to play drums better-- I tell him, "You have to improve more important areas of your life first and gain real self confidence and then discipline." He completely ignores my advice as if he never asked for advice in the first place! what the fuck!! The reason I believe he is ESTp is he is absolutely hellbent on power. He percieves everything as a struggle to dominate others. This is really mind numbing for me. I can't make a realxed joke without him having to defend the honor of himself and his goddamn ancestors. I think his strong will and tough attitude are only a front he uses in conversation. He boasts about his dad often. Here is my favorite bit of our conversations-- He says(speaking in third person, an awful habit i've lectured him on several times), "Guess what Adam did last night?" I respond, "What?" and he says, "He got drunk!" and I say, "Oh no fucking way!! Adam did that?!" ahh. Well. I could go on. Truth is I really don't understand the person, or most people in general.

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    And you can't see him getting a kick out of shutting you down in front of a group of people? Hmmm...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    No, actually. He knows I genuinely despise that sort of behaviour so he makes it a habit to straighten up when I'm around. I think I have this effect on a lot of people. My sometimes obstrusive politeness can change the atmosphere.

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    But you can see him doing it to other people, clearly. No?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Occcasionally-- He is especially prone in the company of his ENTp friend(who has mentioned his disdain for me several times). I more often see him starting ridiclous and unimportant but extremely loud arguments with other people(especially if they are new to him). He likes to talk down to women. A whole lot. He really likes this. Once he proudly told me a story about his dad talking and yelling a female car saleswoman to tears. He seemed to especially emphasize the fact that it was a woman, too.

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    That would be more of a personal trait than anything else though, even if I can see ESTps being prone to such an attitude due to various reasons.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    That would be more of a personal trait than anything else though, even if I can see ESTps being prone to such an attitude due to various reasons.
    agreed. He IS a stand up guy and can be a powerful and useful force, I just more often see his flaws than his qualities.

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    Sounds like you're ISFj.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Sounds like you're ISFj.
    Could be. I do think of myself as an enforcer of morals. But I don't know if I have the strength of an Se type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Sounds like you're ISFj.
    Could be. I do think of myself as an enforcer of morals. But I don't know if I have the strength of an Se type.
    Well, if we were to prove it via contradiction, you do not seem to have the whisy-washiness (spelling error probable) of a Ne type, either.
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    ENTj, but definitally more dynamic than you typical ENTj, in present ENTj's tend to be in business commonly delegating and organizing tasks, usually with strong ENTp, ESTp, and ESTj sides also. Caligula seems like he had some ENFp, ISTp, ISFp, and INTj sides which is different from a typical business man like ENTj. But I definitally think ENTj, it sounded like he had no problem declaring himself "Master" to other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    That's really hard to determine.
    I think I will go ahead and say he's untypable given that the information about him is sketchy at best. Although, I really don't see much point in typing him- there is nothing to relate to in his character and no one is going to get a more clear picture of their type with his exact typing. In fact, whatever type we deem him is only going to help propagate a negative stereotype of that particular type. Well, let's hope that doesn't happen, but you know, people are ridiculous.
    He's certainly untypable in the sense of reaching a clear conclusion on his type, but it is possible to speculate with base on the (indeed sketchy) information available.

    The point in typing him is more an exercise, or for fun, as far as I am concerned.

    As for propagating a negative stereotype of that type - *shrugs* - well, some people are going to do it anyway. Look at the stereotype that HaveLucidDreamz has of ENTjs, as described above. Besides, are we going to stop discussing the types of Hitler, Stalin, etc?
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    To give the historical context -- Philo was a leading Jewish scholar in Alexandria, Egypt, where ethnic conflicts between Jews and Greeks were commonplace.

    In the early Roman Empire - 1st century - it was becoming customary to sacrifice to the emperor's genius - a sort of a person's guardian angel - and to Rome herself as a goddess, and to dead and deified emperors such as Augustus. The Greeks, who with their Platonic view of the universe had another understanding of "godhood", often simply sacrificed to the emperor as if he was a god - which does not mean that they believed that a living emperor, himself, was divine in any way. That is a modern misunderstanding.

    The first two emperors, Augustus and Tiberius, understood that sacrificing to anyone or anything was impossible for Jews, and so were contented that the Jews would sacrifice to God in the temple in Jerusalem on behalf of Rome and the emperor, rather than to Rome etc directly.

    When Caligula became emperor, he started to actually demand to be addressed as, and sacrificed to, as a god -- which the Greeks in Alexandria quickly used as a weapon against the Jews there, saying that they were "disloyal" to Rome since they did not sacrifice to Caligula.

    So, Philo headed an embassy to defend their case before Caligula, but Caligula seemed to regard them as a joke as Philo's report suggests.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    As for propagating a negative stereotype of that type - *shrugs* - well, some people are going to do it anyway. Look at the stereotype that HaveLucidDreamz has of ENTjs, as described above. Besides, are we going to stop discussing the types of Hitler, Stalin, etc?
    Unfortunately, no.

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    lol well part of being an Ej is being able to organize the affairs of others, an NT would be rational and be perfect for planning and strategy of a nation, empire, or army. That of course is just a possible outlet for an ENTj, not every ENTj is a bloody dictator or a sadistic master.

    I don't see how this a stereotype lol, the think that struck me is on this site it says one of the basic motivations of the ENTj is power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz
    I don't see how this a stereotype lol, the think that struck me is on this site it says one of the basic motivations of the ENTj is power.
    If you mean this:

    http://the16types.no-ip.info/types.php?typename=ENTJ

    That bit about the "power" thing refers not to the ENTj but to Oldham's Aggressive mood -- the original author of this site made the correlation ENTj-Aggressive but it's incorrect IMO.

    The ENTj's power motivation is not manifested as a desire to exercise power over others as such.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz
    lol well part of being an Ej is being able to organize the affairs of others, an NT would be rational and be perfect for planning and strategy of a nation, empire, or army.
    I hope you'll agree with me that Caligula didn't really give a shit about rationally organizing the army.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz
    I don't see how this a stereotype lol, the think that struck me is on this site it says one of the basic motivations of the ENTj is power.
    If you mean this:

    http://the16types.no-ip.info/types.php?typename=ENTJ

    That bit about the "power" thing refers not to the ENTj but to Oldham's Aggressive mood -- the original author of this site made the correlation ENTj-Aggressive but it's incorrect IMO.

    The ENTj's power motivation is not manifested as a desire to exercise power over others as such.
    well I disagree I think an ENTj is in some ways is based around a need for power in society in order to excerise his/her NTj leadership in an extroverted manner. However I think each ENTj will of course have their different method of manifesting this need, in Caligula's case he wasn't as interested in rationally organizing the army I agree, but was interested in having absolute power and authority to make the judgements for his nation. However I really don't know much about Caligula besides he loved to indulge in things and was ruthless and ruled with excessive authority. The NTj thing mainly comes from the idea that he had to know something about managing an empire, or else what did he need the authority for ??

    I figured he indulged to satisfy his weaker emotional impulses, but he could have been a feeler, but he didn't seem that idealistic and care about the future of rome's glory, and if he was an ESFp or ISFp, he seemed to be more SFp on the side indulging in hedonism and such and less as a defining trait. He seldom seems like an Sj of any type.

    He could have been an overly hedonistic ISFp leader, concerned less with managing the empire or ideals and more with taking advantage of all the extravagant things available to him as leader.

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    When somebody thinks that a given person could be type X, and his conflictor, in the same argument, then it's time to check it.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I don't think so, its really a question of what motivated him... was it hedonism and taking in as much extravagant sensations as possible. Or was it being the leader and managing the empire with absolute authority. Either way he could still be a power hungry self indulgent leader.

    Either he was an ISFp that wanted to be adorned with absolute authority to not have to worry about being told what to do while he indulges (since he is weak with ENTj)

    or

    He was an ENTj that wanted to indulge in sensations because his life was centered around leading the empire and needed outlets for his weaker SFp sides.

  37. #37
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    but I don't claim to be an expert on Caligula, I'd have to know more before I could make an answer I am truely confident in, just the power thing seems ENTj, the indulging thing seems ISFp, both conflict.... how can you explain that ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz
    but I don't claim to be an expert on Caligula, I'd have to know more before I could make an answer I am truely confident in, just the power thing seems ENTj, the indulging thing seems ISFp, both conflict.... how can you explain that ??
    Simple: he was an ESTp, which fits both things.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    that actually makes sense lol, ESTp, however I admitely usually picture them like the promoter in keirsey. However in socionics he does seem very much like an ESTp, however like I said I am unsure because I am not Caligula expert, but this is my new favorite idea now on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz
    that actually makes sense lol, ESTp, however I admitely usually picture them like the promoter in keirsey. However in socionics he does seem very much like an ESTp, however like I said I am unsure because I am not Caligula expert, but this is my new favorite idea now on this topic.
    you are so wishy washy!!

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