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    Default Ludwig van Beethoven




    For you top-notch VI experts out there:







    Last edited by silke; 07-02-2014 at 08:16 AM. Reason: updated links

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    ILI, perhaps?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I thought INFj when I first saw the pictures...but now I know its Beethoven, I don't really know .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    ILI, perhaps?
    Interesting...perhaps because of the pensive quality? Does everyone agree here that he looks like a T type?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I thought INFj when I first saw the pictures...but now I know its Beethoven, I don't really know .
    Yeah, some people have mentioned in other posts that they think Beethoven is INFj. I was skeptical, but I thought I'd post the pictures to see what people think he looks like, independently of what type people think he should be.

    Most composers that I thought were NF kind of put me in a dreamy mood. Beethoven's music focuses me and makes me generally feel better. That's why I'm curious about his type.

    Here are more pictures:




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    From what I know about Beethoven, he was most definitely IP, and probably N. His stormy, often inconsiderate nature, along with his disdain for social interaction, points to T. I would say the second most likely type for Beethoven is split between INFp and ISTp.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    From what I know about Beethoven, he was most definitely IP, and probably N. His stormy, often inconsiderate nature, along with his disdain for social interaction, points to T. I would say the second most likely type for Beethoven is split between INFp and ISTp.
    Of course his disdain for social interaction was supposedly caused by not wanting anybody to know that he was losing his hearing, which he figured would ruin his career if it got out.

    If he's a super-ego crosstype, why not pick ISFp/INTp instead of INFp/ISTp?

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    The second pic of the first lot and the third pic of the second lot look particularly INFj - I can see ISTp and INTp too...but I'm less sure about INFp (though I can see that too, e.g. maybe the third pic of the first lot and second pic of the third lot?). I keep changing my mind about what each pic looks like.

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    The opposing irrational function develops in genius crosstypes earlier than in non-geniuses. I suspect that if you try, you can perceive a notable lack of S in his earlier works, but the arrival time for the S should be near or about his 40th year.

    Beethoven was certainly not a man ruled by his desires. Indeed, his desires in life went largely unfulfilled.

    You know we should be capable of VIing people of similar type to Beethoven today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    The opposing irrational function develops in genius crosstypes earlier than in non-geniuses. I suspect that if you try, you can perceive a notable lack of S in his earlier works, but the arrival time for the S should be near or about his 40th year.

    Beethoven was certainly not a man ruled by his desires. Indeed, his desires in life went largely unfulfilled.

    You know we should be capable of VIing people of similar type to Beethoven today.
    Whatever type he was, it seems he had a mastery of the sensory aspect from his very earliest compositions, if I'm understanding what S is properly. Other 19th century composers stimulate the listener's imagination but don't have as clear a sense of the piece "as an object" as Beethoven did. He seems to have had a perfect perception of the immediate sensory aspect of the music from the beginning to the end. That doesn't mean he was an S type, but he seemed to have had that in him.

    The "canvas" on which the music resides is always clear, stable; that's exactly what other composers lacked (or didn't feel to be important)...especially INFps.

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    But didn't Beethoven scrutinise over every single note and create huge paperball mountains? His music may not have come naturally to him - or came at great cost - i.e. a contrast to Mozart who could write loads and loads and basically woke up with whole symphonies in his head and stuff...

    P.S. I bases my INFj typing on the fact that he looks like another musician - Morrissey - who I always have in mind as a 'typical INFj' maybe not.

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    PS...I suppose I could entertain the notion of him being INFp only if as one he somehow embraced other functions as part of his artistic concept, such as INFp with , or INFp with , or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    But didn't Beethoven scrutinise over every single note and create huge paperball mountains? His music may not have come naturally to him - or came at great cost - i.e. a contrast to Mozart who could write loads and loads and basically woke up with whole symphonies in his head and stuff...

    P.S. I bases my INFj typing on the fact that he looks like another musician - Morrissey - who I always have in mind as a 'typical INFj' maybe not.
    Yeah, he was a big reviser. That could suggest Ip perhaps. Or some people may see that as suggesting S (e.g., getting N through the axis...)

    I suppose the facile, prolific, Mozartian type of composer would be ENFp or something.

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    If he was INFj, I could see him as quasi-identical to Chopin...similar seriousness of emotion but different effect.

    As to the roes he had with people...can't that be an F thing too? Seems as if T people often take things less personally.

    To TC's point...perhaps he had a mastery of the skill, but didn't have the agenda until he reached his late period.....that's an interesting distinction: the function as a skill, and as a psychological agenda. The first you can aquire easily; the second is what's difficult, impossible, or often unwise.

    Do INFj's give out a feeling of , making themselves seem like ISps to the untrained observer, because it's their hidden agenda?

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    Rows could be a F thing (it could be any function?) - but being slowly poisoned by lead from barrels is also guaranteed to make you pissed off .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    This was Pedro's old old old avatar (when he still seemed "sane" to me ).

    Beethoveen... volitale, reclusive, precise... maybe INTP or something similar.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    ISTj by VI
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Jonathan, I'm curious what the primary emotional qualities and mood of his music was. I would be surprised if he were EII, since my impression is that his music is rather stormy (actually, so is his facial expression, surprise surprise).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Jonathan, I'm curious what the primary emotional qualities and mood of his music was. I would be surprised if he were EII, since my impression is that his music is rather stormy (actually, so is his facial expression, surprise surprise).
    That's a good question. It may sound silly if I try to use adjectives, but I'll try.

    Many of the most famous passages are stormy, of course, but some of the music is quite peaceful and serene (usually with a pastoral theme to it...he loved the countryside). His music can be quite celebratory. When it is, it always seems as if it is responding to some sort of logic, like "everything is all settled....Now. Okay, let's celebrate!"

    Beethoven was known for rather direct, abrupt emotions....never dreamy, wishy-washy, or sentimental. When listening to his music, I find myself motivated to "take action," and I find that I don't need to let go of my analytic train of thought to enjoy it. He avoided digressions like the plague. Basically, everything that sounds like a digression, he edited out; that appears to be why he revised things so much. You can tell the difference if you listen to the Leonore overtures numbers 2 and 3. Basically, #2 was a first draft, and then he corrected it to come up with #3.

    He was often drawn to the idea of writing music about political freedom; words about that topic inspired him to write some of his most impassioned music. His only opera was written about political prisoners being freed. In his Missa Solemnis Mass, he put a lot of emphasis on the word for "pacem" (peace), juxatoposing it against warlike sounds (trumpets and drums). An early song he wrote was to words that went something like "who, who is a free man?"

    The very few songs he wrote to words about romantic love still sound like patriotic songs (or at least, pieces reflecting emotional inclusiveness to include everybody, the whole world). For example, he wrote a song to a poem about being unable to find romantic love and how even the mosses and herbs are loved, but why not me?...and then how happy he'd be if you loved him, etc. Could be a very romantic song, but later, he used the same tune for a piece where the words were about general, idealistic themes regarding humanity. Later, he wrote a similar melody for his 9th symphony to words about joy (not the Joy on this forum...).

    Personal triumph over adversity was another important theme of his. In Western music, minor keys often represent tragedy; major keys happiness. Before Beethoven, it was traditional for a symphony to begin and end in the same key. Beethoven started a new tradition (copied by many other composers later) to start in the minor key (with stormy music) and in the major key (with triumphal, celebratory music).

    Even in a pessimistic, all-minor piece like the string quartet Op. 131, the last three chords in the major key, like shaking one's fist, "I will prevail over this!"

    Some people attribute this theme of personal triumph to his own struggle with increasing deafness. His attitude overall seems to have been that life is a struggle against intense adversity.

    Everything up to about the 7th symphony seems to involve this quest for making an ever more direct statement. The 7th symphony, which Wagner called "the apotheosis of the dance" is like a series of vigorous dances. It draws you in like someone grabbing your shirt and making you get involved. (Vigorous is another good word to describe his music...he liked to use the Italian term "con brio" meaning "with life.")

    Later in his life, his emotional world seemed to branch out a bit; a common theme in his late works is a never-ending peace. He liked to have a very stormy movement followed by something that's very peaceful and serene, like being with nature.

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    PS...Here's what his letters sound like...Here's a more ordinary one followed by one when he seemed quite depressed over his impending deafness.

    TO HERR HOFMEISTER,--LEIPZIG.

    Vienna, April 8, 1802.

    Do you mean to go post-haste to the devil, gentlemen, by proposing that I
    should write _such_ a _sonata_? During the revolutionary fever, a thing of
    the kind might have been appropriate, but now, when everything is falling
    again into the beaten track, and Bonaparte has concluded a _Concordat_ with
    the Pope--such a sonata as this? If it were a _missa pro Sancta Maria à tre
    voci_, or a _vesper_, &c., then I would at once take up my pen and write a
    _Credo in unum_, in gigantic semibreves. But, good heavens! such a sonata,
    in this fresh dawning Christian epoch. No, no!--it won't do, and I will
    have none of it.

    Now for my answer in quickest _tempo_. The lady can have a sonata from me,
    and I am willing to adopt the general outlines of her plan in an
    _aesthetical_ point of view, without adhering to the keys named. The price
    to be five ducats; for this sum she can keep the work a year for her own
    amusement, without either of us being entitled to publish it. After the
    lapse of a year, the sonata to revert to me--that is, I can and will then
    publish it, when, if she considers it any distinction, she may request me
    to dedicate it to her.

    I now, gentlemen, commend you to the grace of God. My Sonata [Op. 22] is
    well engraved, but you have been a fine time about it! I hope you will
    usher my Septet into the world a little quicker, as the P---- is waiting
    for it, and you know the Empress has it; and when there are in this
    imperial city people like ----, I cannot be answerable for the result; so
    lose no time!

    Herr ---- [Mollo?] has lately published my Quartets [Op. 18] full of faults
    and _errata_, both large and small, which swarm in them like fish in the
    sea; that is, they are innumerable. _Questo è un piacere per un
    autore_--this is what I call engraving [_stechen_, stinging] with a
    vengeance.[1] In truth, my skin is a mass of punctures and scratches from
    this fine edition of my Quartets! Now farewell, and think of me as I do of
    you. Till death, your faithful

    L. V. BEETHOVEN.

    [Footnote 1: In reference to the musical piracy at that time very prevalent
    in Austria.]


    26.[1]

    TO MY BROTHERS CARL AND JOHANN BEETHOVEN.

    Heiligenstadt, Oct. 6, 1802.

    Oh! ye who think or declare me to be hostile, morose, and misanthropical,
    how unjust you are, and how little you know the secret cause of what
    appears thus to you! My heart and mind were ever from childhood prone to
    the most tender feelings of affection, and I was always disposed to
    accomplish something great. But you must remember that six years ago I was
    attacked by an incurable malady, aggravated by unskilful physicians,
    deluded from year to year, too, by the hope of relief, and at length forced
    to the conviction of a _lasting affliction_ (the cure of which may go on
    for years, and perhaps after all prove impracticable).

    Born with a passionate and excitable temperament, keenly susceptible to the
    pleasures of society, I was yet obliged early in life to isolate myself,
    and to pass my existence in solitude. If I at any time resolved to surmount
    all this, oh! how cruelly was I again repelled by the experience, sadder
    than ever, of my defective hearing!--and yet I found it impossible to say
    to others: Speak louder; shout! for I am deaf! Alas! how could I proclaim
    the deficiency of a sense which ought to have been more perfect with me
    than with other men,--a sense which I once possessed in the highest
    perfection, to an extent, indeed, that few of my profession ever enjoyed!
    Alas, I cannot do this! Forgive me therefore when you see me withdraw from
    you with whom I would so gladly mingle. My misfortune is doubly severe from
    causing me to be misunderstood. No longer can I enjoy recreation in social
    intercourse, refined conversation, or mutual outpourings of thought.
    Completely isolated, I only enter society when compelled to do so. I must
    live like an exile. In company I am assailed by the most painful
    apprehensions, from the dread of being exposed to the risk of my condition
    being observed. It was the same during the last six months I spent in the
    country. My intelligent physician recommended me to spare my hearing as
    much as possible, which was quite in accordance with my present
    disposition, though sometimes, tempted by my natural inclination for
    society, I allowed myself to be beguiled into it. But what humiliation when
    any one beside me heard a flute in the far distance, while I heard
    _nothing_, or when others heard _a shepherd singing_, and I still heard
    _nothing_! Such things brought me to the verge of desperation, and wellnigh
    caused me to put an end to my life. _Art! art_ alone, deterred me. Ah! how
    could I possibly quit the world before bringing forth all that I felt it
    was my vocation to produce?[2] And thus I spared this miserable life--so
    utterly miserable that any sudden change may reduce me at any moment from
    my best condition into the worst. It is decreed that I must now choose
    _Patience_ for my guide! This I have done. I hope the resolve will not fail
    me, steadfastly to persevere till it may please the inexorable Fates to cut
    the thread of my life. Perhaps I may get better, perhaps not. I am prepared
    for either. Constrained to become a philosopher in my twenty-eighth
    year![3] This is no slight trial, and more severe on an artist than on any
    one else. God looks into my heart, He searches it, and knows that love for
    man and feelings of benevolence have their abode there! Oh! ye who may one
    day read this, think that you have done me injustice, and let any one
    similarly afflicted be consoled, by finding one like himself, who, in
    defiance of all the obstacles of Nature, has done all in his power to be
    included in the ranks of estimable artists and men. My brothers Carl and
    Johann, as soon as I am no more, if Professor Schmidt [see Nos. 18 and 23]
    be still alive, beg him in my name to describe my malady, and to add these
    pages to the analysis of my disease, that at least, so far as possible, the
    world may be reconciled to me after my death. I also hereby declare you
    both heirs of my small fortune (if so it may be called). Share it fairly,
    agree together and assist each other. You know that anything you did to
    give me pain has been long forgiven. I thank you, my brother Carl in
    particular, for the attachment you have shown me of late. My wish is that
    you may enjoy a happier life, and one more free from care, than mine has
    been. Recommend _Virtue_ to your children; that alone, and not wealth, can
    ensure happiness. I speak from experience. It was _Virtue_ alone which
    sustained me in my misery; I have to thank her and Art for not having ended
    my life by suicide. Farewell! Love each other. I gratefully thank all my
    friends, especially Prince Lichnowsky and Professor Schmidt. I wish one of
    you to keep Prince L----'s instruments; but I trust this will give rise to
    no dissension between you. If you think it more beneficial, however, you
    have only to dispose of them. How much I shall rejoice if I can serve you
    even in the grave! So be it then! I joyfully hasten to meet Death. If he
    comes before I have had the opportunity of developing all my artistic
    powers, then, notwithstanding my cruel fate, he will come too early for me,
    and I should wish for him at a more distant period; but even then I shall
    be content, for his advent will release me from a state of endless
    suffering. Come when he may, I shall meet him with courage. Farewell! Do
    not quite forget me, even in death; I deserve this from you, because during
    my life I so often thought of you, and wished to make you happy. Amen!

    LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN.

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    I can see Beethoven being a INFj, and I'm now even less sure about INFp. The next strongest candidate would be ISTp IMO.

    The last letter is very interesting-it seems like a complete analysis of Beethoven's view on life (even if he was going deaf) - it sounds almost like a will\a final statement before he dies (although he's only 28).

    Would this therefore be a fair reflection of his character or would it be subject to bias as he tries to get his whole life into one letter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I can see Beethoven being a INFj, and I'm now even less sure about INFp. The next strongest candidate would be ISTp IMO.

    The last letter is very interesting-it seems like a complete analysis of Beethoven's view on life (even if he was going deaf) - it sounds almost like a will\a final statement before he dies (although he's only 28).

    Would this therefore be a fair reflection of his character or would it be subject to bias as he tries to get his whole life into one letter?
    Good question. I included two letters in that quote since the second was a little unusual. It sounds almost as if he was contemplating suicide (well of course he mentions that, and what held him back) or just imagining his own death. Perhaps he felt he would die because of his sadness. Or, maybe more likely he just didn't want anyone to read it until he passed away, since it concerns his "secret." So, in that case, he decided this should be opened by his brothers at his death, so that others could know the real cause for his behavior. As I recall, he never actually sent the letter, but it became quite famous.

    Also, on the outside of that letter, he wrote this:


    (_Written on the Outside._)

    Thus, then, I take leave of you, and with sadness too. The fond hope I
    brought with me here, of being to a certain degree cured, now utterly
    forsakes me. As autumn leaves fall and wither, so are my hopes blighted.
    Almost as I came, I depart. Even the lofty courage that so often animated
    me in the lovely days of summer is gone forever. O Providence! vouchsafe me
    one day of pure felicity! How long have I been estranged from the glad echo
    of true joy! When! O my God! when shall I again feel it in the temple of
    Nature and of man?--never? Ah! that would be too hard!

    (_Outside._)

    To be read and fulfilled after my death by my brothers Carl and Johann.
    Even though this was perhaps his most emotional letter, it is nevertheless true that many of his letters were quite emotional and featured interjections and poetic phrases, although some letters were more mundane in nature.

    Then again, people used to write letters differently from the way they write today.

    As to INFj (EII), that's exactly what Rick seems to find unlikely (?).

    FDG's visual-based suggestion of ISTj is quite interesting; does anyone else see ISj as a possibility here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I can see Beethoven being a INFj, and I'm now even less sure about INFp. The next strongest candidate would be ISTp IMO.
    ???? ISTp?? Oh please. It seems to me that types are mostly thrown casually. He clearly has quadra values; I would go as far as saying that they're coupled with and somewhere, even if it's not as apparent as the Se.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    He reminds me of Hitler, lol. Anyone considered ENFj?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    He reminds me of Hitler, lol. Anyone considered ENFj?
    Some people have mentioned ENFj in the past. He looks so thoughtful and pensive though. I really don't see the resemblence you speak of...maybe it's just the serious expression?

    Probably for VI purposes, the first set (earlier) photos are the best, because he was less famous then, so artists would have fewer preconceptions of what he should look like.

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    The funny thing is, I keep hearing what I think is SEI. But I have to admit that he doesn't look remotely like the SEIs in the pictures.

    Of course, I can easily choose to interpret his music in my mind according to anything anyone has proposed...even LSI.

    But really, it shouldn't be that hard...His music is so direct; whatever type profile he is, he must be very much that way. Brahms would be harder.

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    For what it's worth, here are some possible attitudes I see reflected in his life:

    Life is hard. One must struggle against the hardness of life. Good things don't come easily.
    Everyone should be happy. Let's all join together and be happy.
    Everybody should be included.
    It's important to think about the world, not just yourself.
    We can triumph over our circumstances, over adversity.
    It's important to get the details right. Everything must be perfect.
    Communication should be clear, overt, and intimate.
    It's important to recognize the realities of life.
    Emotional reactions should be in response to truth, to some sort of logic; nothing without good justification.
    No one should impose his/her will over another; we should be all together, all free.

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    There are several instances where something in his life could have affected him:
    He missed out in life when he didn't get married (I think he said it was because he was higher class or something, but in actual fact she was higher class and she left him, rather than the other way round) - this could be related rather than .


    Got lead poisoning and started going deaf at an early age -> lead poisoning can drastically change behaviour and making the world's greatest composer deaf just takes the piss!

    he's known for ocassionly going out in public looking like a tramp (INFp related? )

    There's the famous quote where he says to a prince 'you are a prince by birth; there will be many princes, but there is only one Beethoven!' This coulde be , but being against authority suggests it wasn't his creative function as in ISTjs - it's probably more primary or related.

    Also, he first supported Napoleon (ideological reasons etc.?), but ripped up the original Leonore dedication when he found out Napoleon had invaded France. Now I'm not necessarily saying that's anti-Se but... (It's probably too complicated to even disect).
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    This pic from wikipedia looks INFj (from when he was 24)
    [img]=http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3926/beethoven3ed0.jpg[/img]

    This is what wikipedia says about Beethoven:
    Beethoven was born at Bonngasse 515 (today Bonngasse 20) in Bonn, Germany to Johann van Beethoven (1740–1792) and Magdalena Keverich van Beethoven (1744–1787). Beethoven was baptized on December 17, but his family and later teacher Johann Albrechtsberger celebrated his birthday on December 16.
    Beethoven's first music teacher was his father, a musician in the Electoral court at Bonn who was apparently a harsh and unpredictable instructor. Johann would often come home from a bar in the middle of the night and pull young Ludwig out of bed to play for him and his friend. Beethoven's talent was recognized at a very early age. His first important teacher was Christian Gottlob Neefe. In 1787 young Beethoven traveled to Vienna for the first time, where he may have met and played for Mozart. He was forced to return home because his mother was dying of tuberculosis. Beethoven's mother died when he was 18, and for several years he was responsible for raising his two younger brothers because of his father's worsening alcoholism.
    Beethoven moved to Vienna in 1792, where he studied for a time with Joseph Haydn in lieu of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, who had died the previous year. He received additional instruction from Johan Georg Albrechtsberger (Vienna's preeminent counterpoint instructor) and Antonio Salieri. Beethoven immediately established a reputation as a piano virtuoso. His first works with opus numbers, the three piano trios, appeared in 1795. He settled into the career pattern he would follow for the remainder of his life: rather than working for the church or a noble court (as most composers before him had done), he supported himself through a combination of annual stipends or single gifts from members of the aristocracy, income from subscription concerts, concerts, and lessons, and sales of his works.
    Social difficulties
    Beethoven's personal life was troubled. Around age 28, he started to become deaf, which led him to contemplate suicide (see the 1802 Heiligenstadt Testament). He was attracted to unattainable (married or aristocratic) women; he never married. His only uncontested love affair with an identified woman began in 1805 with Josephine von Brunswick; most scholars think it ended by 1807 because she could not marry a commoner without losing her children. In 1812 he wrote a long love letter to a woman only identified therein as the "Immortal Beloved." Several candidates have been suggested, but none has won universal support. Some scholars believe his period of low productivity from about 1812 to 1816 was caused by depression resulting from Beethoven's realization that he would never marry.
    Beethoven quarrelled, often bitterly, with his relatives and others (including a painful and public custody battle over his nephew Karl); he frequently treated other people badly. He moved often and had strange personal habits, such as wearing dirty clothing even as he washed compulsively. Nonetheless, he had a close and devoted circle of friends his entire life.
    Many listeners perceive an echo of Beethoven's life in his music, which often depicts struggle followed by triumph. This description is often applied to Beethoven's creation of masterpieces in the face of his severe personal difficulties.

    Personal beliefs and their musical influence
    Beethoven was much taken by the ideals of the Enlightenment and by the growing Romanticism in Europe. He initially dedicated his third symphony, the Eroica (Italian for "heroic"), to Napoleon in the belief that the general would sustain the democratic and republican ideals of the French Revolution, but in 1804 crossed out Napoleon's name on the title page upon which he had written a dedication to him, as Napoleon's imperial ambitions became clear, renamed the symphony as the "Sinfonia Eroica, composta per festeggiare il sovvenire di un grand Uomo", or in English, "composed to celebrate the memory of a great man". The fourth movement of his Ninth Symphony features an elaborate choral setting of Schiller's Ode An die Freude ("Ode To Joy"), an optimistic hymn championing the brotherhood of humanity.
    Scholars disagree on Beethoven's religious beliefs and the role they played in his work. For discussion, see Ludwig van Beethoven's religious beliefs.
    Work
    Beethoven composed in a great variety of genres, including symphonies, concerti, piano sonatas, string quartets and other chamber music, masses, opera, lieder, and various other genres. He is viewed as one of the most important transitional figures between the Classical and Romantic eras of musical history.
    As far as musical form is concerned, Beethoven built on the principles of sonata form and motivic development that he had inherited from Haydn and Mozart, but greatly extended them, writing longer and more ambitious movements. But Beethoven also radically redefined the symphony, transforming it from the rigidly structured four-ordered-movements form of Haydn's era to a fairly open ended form that could sustain as many movements as necessary, and of whatever form was necessary to give the work cohesion.
    The three periods
    Beethoven's career as a composer is usually divided into Early, Middle, and Late periods.
    In the Early period, he is seen as emulating his great predecessors Haydn and Mozart while concurrently exploring new directions and gradually expanding the scope and ambition of his work. Some important pieces from the Early period are the first and second symphonies, the first six string quartets, the first two piano concertos, and the first twenty piano sonatas, including the famous Pathétique and Moonlight.
    The Middle period began shortly after Beethoven's personal crisis centering around deafness. The period is noted for large-scale works expressing heroism and struggle; these include many of the most famous works of classical music. Middle period works include six symphonies (Nos. 3–8), the last three piano concertos, triple concerto and his only violin concerto, five string quartets (Nos. 7–11), the next seven piano sonatas including the Waldstein, and Appassionata, and his only opera, Fidelio.
    Beethoven's Late period began around 1816 and lasted until Beethoven's death in 1827. The Late works are greatly admired for and characterized by their intellectual depth, intense and highly personal expression, and experimentation with forms (for example, the Quartet in C Sharp Minor has seven movements, while most famously his Ninth Symphony adds choral forces to the orchestra in the last movement). This period includes the Missa Solemnis, the last five string quartets and the last five piano sonatas.
    Considering the depth and extent of Beethoven's artistic explorations, as well as the composer's success in making himself comprehensible to the widest possible audience, the Austrian-born British musician and writer Hans Keller pronounced Beethoven "humanity's greatest mind altogether".
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    ???? ISTp?? Oh please. It seems to me that types are mostly thrown casually. He clearly has quadra values; I would go as far as saying that they're coupled with and somewhere, even if it's not as apparent as the Se.
    This might suggest ENFj....I could see that too as a possibility. The difficulty is that with a well-formed structure, you can perceive it as almost anything.

    What's clear to me is that whatever type he was, Fe and Ti (or Fi and Te) were both conscious, or at least highly developed. Awareness of the axis seems to be the key.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    This pic from wikipedia looks INFj (from when he was 24)
    This morning, I'm in the mood again to think he was INFj too.

    Here's a question: Does INFj, or , lend itself toward emotions directed "at humanity"...all-inclusive feeling? For example, I see that Rick has typed Abraham Lincoln as INFj, as well as various people who might fit the description of the "moral conscience of society"; somewhere I saw that some Socionists have typed Vincent Van Gogh as INFj too.

    This really gets into the difference in expression of vs. ....never really got a clear answer to that. It seems to me, perhaps, that ENFjs are good at creating a particular world view and distinguishing it from the rest..."us vs. them"....whereas INFjs direct their feeling outward more in every direction...???

    Some reasons to consider Beethoven as possibly having delta values:
    - all-inclusive emotions
    - concern for external structure; striving to achieve effective or correct structure, as opposed to merely consistent structure; emphasis on structural clarity rather than structural complexity
    - consistent palette; focus on the perspective of someone sitting down to enjoy something
    - open to all possibilities of direction regarding where to go; tendency to revise based on completely different ideas

    Of course, last night I thought he was ENFj...There is of course that issue of having impeccable timing

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    Of course, some of the key questions here are...

    How really is expressed...can be full of fire when expressed in a work of art, or is such overt intensity always ?

    Can ISTjs appear highly emotional, and what does their emotionalism look like?

    When one sees evidence of in the clarity of the structure and in the pragmatism of the structure, how does one prioritize these in terms of which came first?

    Still sticking with today...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    ???? ISTp?? Oh please. It seems to me that types are mostly thrown casually. He clearly has quadra values; I would go as far as saying that they're coupled with and somewhere, even if it's not as apparent as the Se.
    Yes, and were most evident to me -- I see how ENFj could work, except for the willingness to refer to his deafness which goes against the ENFj PoLR, although, well, how was he going not to talk about it in that letter? The fact that he preferred to avoid society because they might notice his deafness is actually confirmation of that.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    How really is expressed...can be full of fire when expressed in a work of art, or is such overt intensity always ?
    It all depends on what the artist is trying to achieve -- if s/he puts down his/her feelings on the work of art because of an artistic need to express them, it may well be ; if it is about making everyone pay attention to those feelings, then it will be more .

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Can ISTjs appear highly emotional, and what does their emotionalism look like?
    I think they can, although it will be atypical, and it will be about expressing emotions they feel are appropriate at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    When one sees evidence of in the clarity of the structure and in the pragmatism of the structure, how does one prioritize these in terms of which came first?
    It's not easy.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Interesting discussion. I was away for several days.

    I think Jonathan's comments about the qualities of Beethoven's music point to extraversion. First of all, his sources of musical inspiration seemed to be largely external (prisoners attaining freedom, triumph over adversity, etc.). Secondly, the "motivation to take action" one feels when listening to his work. Thirdly, the lack of sentimentality and dreaminess (probably or ). Finally, he seems to have been a very restless person.

    Of the extraverted elements, I see no basis for as a base function. Also, his passionate nature makes unlikely.

    If the theme of struggle and triumph is foremost in his work, that would point to . However, his reaction to his increasing deafness seems a bit unusual, if I understand correctly. He tried to hide it at all cost, considering it too shameful to reveal to the public. Rather than let on that he was deaf, he preferred to act like a reclusive "bumbling oaf." This response to a physical deficiency probably speaks against and for . Or did he keep it a secret only for fear of losing his career?

    Can Beethoven be compared at all to Wagner? Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    First of all, his sources of musical inspiration seemed to be largely external (prisoners attaining freedom, triumph over adversity, etc.).
    Interesting observations. I must say that that part of my description may have been skewed by the fact that in trying to describe what themes he was drawn to, I focused on external things.

    One could also make the case that his sources of musical inspiration were largely internal. Most of his music was "abstract" in the sense that he wrote many sonatas, symphonies, etc. with no overtly "external" theme. However, the external themes are there too.

    Another theme in Beethoven's music was the desire to create the 'perfect' formal structure...the most concise possible statement. I think this was tied to a sense of trying to "energize" the listener.

    One aspect of his life that seems unusual for an extravert type, especially , was his inability to find someone to marry him. That seemed to hurt him a great deal. Obviously that could happen to anybody, but I get the sense that he was more clueless in that area than a typical type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    However, his reaction to his increasing deafness seems a bit unusual, if I understand correctly. He tried to hide it at all cost, considering it too shameful to reveal to the public. Rather than let on that he was deaf, he preferred to act like a reclusive "bumbling oaf." This response to a physical deficiency probably speaks against and for . Or did he keep it a secret only for fear of losing his career?
    Yes, his career as a composer was his life. If people found out, they may dismiss his music...worst of all, they may attribute his tremendously innovative style to his deafness. In fact, they did when they found out. If he had written in a more conventional style, or if he was less focused on his career, this may have bothered him less.

    Can Beethoven be compared at all to Wagner? Just curious.
    Wagner thought so. But the effect of their music is so different. Whether or not Beethoven was a rational type, there clearly was a rational thread in his music...a preference for clear structures, and the powerful feeling one gets from very concise statements. In his passionate, climactic moments, there is always a sense of logical justification, as if he is always reaching across to his dual side.

    Wagner's music seems more clearly on the - axis. It always evokes a sense of myth, a sense of a novel-like narrative. Wagner was obsessed with myths, ancient dream-like stories...and his music conveys the emotion of ancient myths probably better than any other composer.

    Also, I think Wagner was a student of typology. Some of the unusual lines in his "Ring" cycle of 4 operas ("music dramas") make most sense when seen from that point of view...(Note...I'm using Keirsey mappings to the ancient typology theory, because it fits)

    Das Reingold: NT - phlegmatic
    Die Walkurie: NF (Brunhilde probably INFp) - choleric
    Siegfried SP (Seigfried probably ESTp) - sanguine
    Gotterdamerung - melancholic

    Wagner the person was characterized by what could only be described as a certain arrogance, a sense that he was so 'great' that he could basically do whatever he liked, including sleeping with anyone he wanted, etc. ...very different from Beethoven.

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    Interesting comments. My impression of Wagner was SLE, incidentally. I'm not terribly familiar with W., but his music seems monumental, plodding, and lacking a "constant beat," which is often a hallmark of irrationals. Of course, they also belonged to different musical periods.

    One aspect of his life that seems unusual for an extravert type, especially , was his inability to find someone to marry him...
    I'm not sure these are related. Theoretically, one might think so, but practically, this happens to people of all types.

    Wikipedia:
    Beethoven quarrelled, often bitterly, with his relatives and others (including a painful and public custody battle over his nephew Karl); he frequently treated other people badly. He moved often and had strange personal habits, such as wearing dirty clothing even as he washed compulsively. Nonetheless, he had a close and devoted circle of friends his entire life.
    Not that this is decisive, but I think this "strange personal habit" likely is related to intuition.

    Anyways, I don't see anything decisive yet.

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    You're making me more convinced right now that Beethoven really was EIE. If so, it blows my stereotype of EIEs as people who are highly social and successful (especially in management) but more inclined to work through others by shmoozing and telling people their "grand vision" and not so inclined to work out the details themselves.

    Also, I see that some Socionists type Shakespeare as EIE. If so, I could see him and Beethoven as playing a similar role of absolutely dominating their particular artistic field; I wonder if there's a particular reason why EIEs would play such a role. Maybe it's because there are lots of IEIs and ILIs in the arts who find the product of an EIE difficult to attain because they can never quite master the orientation of as being the producing function and being the base one.

    Anyhow, if is in Beethoven's ego block, that would point to four types. I think we can rule out IEI because of the lack of dreaminess, and also the lack of seemingly wonton shifting of levels and vantage points which IEIs are known to do. But there are two ways I can conceptualize differentiation from IEI in this regard: SEI's use of instead of would make SEI's products more "concrete," less dreamy; whereas EIE's rational nature may have a similar effect.

    Obviously, Beethoven doesn't look to me like an SEI, but I wonder how one differentiates EIE from SEI artists. In particular, I wonder now what famous composers, if any, would be dominant. If people are highly interested in aesthetics, surely there must be at least one composer, out of all the hundreds of composers. But I wonder who would represent the point of view the best (?).

    Similarly, I always thought that Leonard Bernstein was EIE; now I wonder if that's true (maybe he's a different subtype than Beethoven...?).

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    I think EIE is a good working version, but I'm not convinced myself, and I don't feel I know enough about his life yet.

    It's definitely not strange for EIEs to dominate in artistic fields or in fields like advertising, publicity, or public life in general.

    If so, it blows my stereotype of EIEs as people who are highly social and successful (especially in management) but more inclined to work through others by shmoozing and telling people their "grand vision" and not so inclined to work out the details themselves.
    I think your stereotype is largely correct for EIE leaders and managers. But artists and performers must master all aspects of their skill without delegating to others, so it doesn't quite apply. Composition is hardly a team endeavor.

    In contrast to IEIs and ILIs in the arts, EIEs are usually noticeable, loud, and somewhat controversial. If, on top of that, they have actually mastered their art, it's easy for them to dominate the public's attention.

    Beethoven doesn't seem SEI to me, either. Part of it is that the theme of struggle and overcoming difficulty is not very relevant to the enjoyment-oriented SEI.

    But I wonder who would represent the point of view the best (?).
    Good question. I don't know any off the top of my head, and types in general seem to gravitate more to the visual arts than to music composition. I would look for composers with a "full," melodic sound without excess musical and structural complexity. A possibility that comes to mind is Grieg. Maybe you can think of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    A possibility that comes to mind is Grieg. Maybe you can think of others.
    Ravel. Chopin maybe....
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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