View Poll Results: What type was Albert Einstein?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    4 36.36%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    5 45.45%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    1 9.09%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    1 9.09%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    0 0%
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Thread: Albert Einstein

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    Default Albert Einstein

    I've heard people discuss it before, but I don't think there has been an offical thread for it yet, so: What was Albert Einstein's type?

    My vote goes to INTp.

    I've heard ENTp for Einstein, and I can see why some people might say that. He was a bit of a goofy, even Kramer-like, guy. But not all INTps are restrained and reserved. Believe me, my Dad's INTp. If you ask some of the INTps here they will tell you that an INTp can even be the life of the party ( ).

    If you look at Einstein, I see Ni as his dominant function. He was a big visonary guy. An inspirational dreamer. When he was a kid he was very dettached from the other kids. He wandered around alone, tryin to discover things for himself. He didn't participate in games with the other kids. Also, he was even considered retared when younger. I think it would have made more sense for someone with a heavy intuition to be thought of a "retared" back than because he was always in his head (especially if it was Ni) and misunderstood. This is another reason to consider he probably wasn't judging. Even when he was older, he kept to himself a lot. He would stay in the same clothes, not careing about what others thought of him. He was constanly toiling with his imagination. INTp, IMO.












    Last edited by silke; 10-10-2015 at 02:48 AM. Reason: updated links
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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Default Einstein - ILE?

    I often see Einstein typed as an ILE. What I don't get about this is that EPs are supposedly high energy types - they like expending energy. When I look at Einstein's demeanor, and the way he carried himself, I don't see someone with a high energy level. My guess would be ILI - an IP, the lowest energy level group, and both intuitive and logical.

    Jason

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Do you have a video or something?

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Do you have a video or something?


    Jason

    EDIT: For some reason, when I click on the "play" button of the video, it doesn't play. If this happens to you, go to http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...lbert_Einstein, and look at the video under "Videos."

    Jason

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    idk, it's pretty scant evidence. There are plenty of other reasons
    why Einstein is ILE (see socionics.us + a billion past threads).

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    I just wrote a substantiation of the ILE typing based on a biography of Einstein. It's not perfect, but I think the reasons for ILE are pretty strong. Feel free to comment on http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...Admin/Einstein
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    On a complete side note, I thought Exxp's expended energy as a matter of course, but Exxj's took it to the next level. Not saying one is better than the other, but Exxj's, especially Fe, seems very much out in the world as far as energy goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I often see Einstein typed as an ILE. What I don't get about this is that EPs are supposedly high energy types - they like expending energy. When I look at Einstein's demeanor, and the way he carried himself, I don't see someone with a high energy level. My guess would be ILI - an IP, the lowest energy level group, and both intuitive and logical.

    Jason
    While your reasoning is sounds right, it's still higly probable that einstein was ILE.

    My arguments:
    - Rick said that highly intelligent people tend to be loners.
    - Igor Weisband is ILE, he's not the high energy type you'd expect. I've met him.
    - another example, Rick is an IEE, he's not a high energy type, he acts coolish.
    - Einstein seems to VI as an ILE
    - ILE's tend to be capable of the things einstein did. ILI's not.
    - Einsteins letters etc (i've got 2 books on him) are pretty strange. If he was an ILI I might
    have recognized something of my own writing style in it, which I don't.
    - Someone capable of recognizing Ne, would probably see it clearly in one of my books, I
    remember thinking, this guy has great intuitive insights. He sees all sorts of things in what
    seems mundane. Unfortunately I'm not an expert on Ne. But it's pretty obvious I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    While your reasoning is sounds right, it's still higly probable that einstein was ILE.

    My arguments:
    - Rick said that highly intelligent people tend to be loners.
    Way to think for yourself. I think anybody with any observational skills at all could have deduced that one. Except, damn... are we saying that Ronald Reagan wasn't intelligent here? Something isn't jiving, now.

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    This message is endorsed by rmcnew (blame him!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I often see Einstein typed as an ILE. What I don't get about this is that EPs are supposedly high energy types - they like expending energy.
    Goto the mall or any public place, look around and tell me how many people you see that you personally would describe as having 'exploding energy' when you do that get back to me.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Goto the mall or any public place, look around and tell me how many people you see that you personally would describe as having 'exploding energy' when you do that get back to me.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    Right, I'm going to assume that was a joke and have a chuckle because if not you completely failed to grasp the point I was trying to make.

    Also fwiw he's not at a mall
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    lol

    "The normal people that walk everyday on the streets, we cannot understand" - Ultimate Warrior

    It must be because they have too low energy levels
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Have you seen an ESE lately? Very explosive.

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    Let me introduce you the only Frenchman with a sense of humour:

    Remi Gaillard









    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    Ni. Absurd in a Ne perspective.
    No, that is precisely how Ne works. Information is taken in, reshuffled, and spit back out in a form that is unrecognizable. This is viewed as creativity... but to the Ne ego watching his own mind, everything came from somewhere.



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    oh thank god... I thought that somebody had made a new thread on Einstein

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    I personally think that temperament has more to do with the elements than the typing, Ni and Si fitting in with IP, Ne and Se fitting in with EP, etc.. And high energy is not the right idea. Extroversion is more about controlling and producing, making an impact. You're not always going to have high energy extroverts, no. So an ENTp with Ti subtype is especially not going to be high energy with passive and observant Ti.

    Ti subtype is still wanting to control and make an impact, but is far less direct. There is more observation, waiting, and planning involved, and there less value placed upon the experiential.

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    I started this thread when I didn't have much knowledge of socionics. Interestingly, I now still consider Einstein to be ILI, for three main reasons:

    1. His mannerisms and facial expressions appear completely drained of Fe (enthusiasm). It wouldn't surprise me if Fe is his weakest function.

    2. Einstein was very interested in moral causes. His interest in pacifism and the well-being of mankind is very clear in his writings. (i.e., Fi-valuing.)

    3. I find his writing style incomprehensible. Perhaps Einstein's writings (even on simple things) are too difficult to be easily understood by the masses, but these difficulties are very typical in quasi-identical relations.

    Jason
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    I started this thread when I didn't have much knowledge of socionics. Interestingly, I now still consider Einstein to be ILI, for three main reasons:
    The evidence still weighs far more heavily towards ILE and your reasons do little to change that.

    [quote1. His mannerisms and facial expressions appear completely drained of Fe (enthusiasm). It wouldn't surprise me if Fe is his weakest function.[/quote]Einstein may have also had Asperger's Syndrome.

    2. Einstein was very interested in moral causes. His interest in pacifism and the well-being of mankind is very clear in his writings. (i.e., Fi-valuing.)
    He was also highly interested in political causes. But none of this really points to Fi-valuing, especially considering that philosophers such as Seneca (ILE) and Marx (ILE) also have written extensively on morality. And philosophical Spinoza's (Alpha NT) magnum opus was entitled Ethics. (The same Spinoza whose philosophical works influenced Einstein. Einstein even wrote a terrible poem for him.) Or how about the political ethicist John Rawls (LII)? To say that concern over the well-being of mankind points to Fi-valuing is simply wrong when one begins at the grander scope of evidence.

    3. I find his writing style incomprehensible. Perhaps Einstein's writings (even on simple things) are too difficult to be easily understood by the masses, but these difficulties are very typical in quasi-identical relations.
    I do not find his writing style incomprehensible. If he is an ILI, and I am an LII this would be odd. If he is an ILI, and I am an LSI (as ephemeros believes), this would still be odd. Your ability or mine to comprehend his writing is not necessarily a good basis for typing.

    If you were to look at the relationships that he had with his wives, it points towards Si-seeking. His difficulty of performing physical tasks required the aid of his wives. His second wife, Elsa, was described as a gatekeeper who protected him from unwelcome visitors and charlatans. Or this book excerpt describing his relationship:
    [Elsa and Einstein] enjoyed the same foods and appreciated the same ideals of simple living.
    ...
    Elsa's caretaking and nursing was a likely factor in Einstein's eventual decision to formalize his separation from Mileva.
    ...
    While Mileva is rumored to have contributed to Einstein's early theories to at least some extent, it was Elsa who was a better match for Einstein. Rather than competing with him in the scientific arena, she was able to accept that her husband needed solitude and intense concentration to do his work, and she played a supporting role by creating a good working environment for him and placing few demands on him.
    This is a caregiving behavior.

    Einstein's love for sailing and rowing for relaxation of the mind and body also is an indication of Si-seeking. One book on Einstein writes:
    Sailing was an excellent output for Einstein's energies, combining mathematics and physics, as well as nautical engineering. Sailing provided physical activity and mind-clearing freedom; he brought a notebook on all his sailing ventures in order to jot down his thoughts. Some of his best thoughts were said to occur while working on his sailboats-while he spent much time actually sailing, he was also said to enjoy simply drifting and cogitating.
    Here we have Einstein engaging in leisurely physical activity (Si) as a means of generating ideas (Ne). It does not get much clearer than this.

    Albert Einstein was much respected for his kind and friendly demeanor rooted in his pacifism. He was modest about his abilities, and had distinctive attitudes and fashions—for example, he minimized his wardrobe so that he would not need to waste time in deciding on what to wear. He occasionally had a playful sense of humor, and enjoyed sailing and playing the violin. He was also the stereotypical "absent-minded professor"; he was often forgetful of everyday items, such as keys, and would focus so intently on solving physics problems that he would often become oblivious to his surroundings. In his later years, his appearance inadvertently created (or reflected) another stereotype of the scientist in the process: the researcher with unruly white hair.
    This is behavior that occurs frequently in Ne-egos. There is a reason why the ILE is associated with the archetype of the absent-minded professor.
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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Einstein may have also had Asperger's Syndrome.
    And would this not in all likelihood be more consistent with ILI than ILE?

    He was also highly interested in political causes. But none of this really points to Fi-valuing, especially considering that philosophers such as Seneca (ILE) and Marx (ILE) also have written extensively on morality. And philosophical Spinoza's (Alpha NT) magnum opus was entitled Ethics. (The same Spinoza whose philosophical works influenced Einstein. Einstein even wrote a terrible poem for him.) Or how about the political ethicist John Rawls (LII)? To say that concern over the well-being of mankind points to Fi-valuing is simply wrong when one begins at the grander scope of evidence.
    The problem is that Einstein does not seem to write about political and moral causes in a detached, theoretical way. It seems to be more of a personal mission for him. (Although I could be wrong.)


    If you were to look at the relationships that he had with his wives, it points towards Si-seeking. His difficulty of performing physical tasks required the aid of his wives. His second wife, Elsa, was described as a gatekeeper who protected him from unwelcome visitors and charlatans. Or this book excerpt describing his relationship:
    This is a caregiving behavior.

    Einstein's love for sailing and rowing for relaxation of the mind and body also is an indication of Si-seeking. One book on Einstein writes:
    Here we have Einstein engaging in leisurely physical activity (Si) as a means of generating ideas (Ne). It does not get much clearer than this.

    This is behavior that occurs frequently in Ne-egos. There is a reason why the ILE is associated with the archetype of the absent-minded professor.
    These are good arguments. I have read some of his personal works, but I think it would be better if I read a biography on him before drawing any final conclusions.

    Jason
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    And would this not in all likelihood be more consistent with ILI than ILE?
    No, it wouldn't. Mental handicap =/= any type, function, quadra, or dichotomy.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    No, it wouldn't. Mental handicap =/= any type, function, quadra, or dichotomy.
    However, this makes mental handicaps a feature of personality separate from Socionics, and I don't think they deserve that distinction. They're descriptions of the person that could easily overlap with type...



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    However, this makes mental handicaps a feature of personality separate from Socionics, and I don't think they deserve that distinction. They're descriptions of the person that could easily overlap with type...
    Such as perhaps someone seeming to be some T type due to their at least superficially observed "weakness" in F function. Although not really in Einsteins case I think.

    I think I read somewhere that this can cause some MBTI practitioners to associate something like Aspergers testing out as mostly NT types, which although may have some implication to type, it's also showing an irrelevancy to MBTI typing approach.

    It makes me think about something I recall being associated with what Ashura said about socionics only applying to what's generally regarded as mentally healthy people, but that on it's own is a somewhat contentious issue due to nature of a supposed illness and such factors.

    I am now rambling and consider deleting this somewhat pointless post of mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    And would this not in all likelihood be more consistent with ILI than ILE?
    Not necessarily. I would expect it more in NTs though.

    The problem is that Einstein does not seem to write about political and moral causes in a detached, theoretical way. It seems to be more of a personal mission for him. (Although I could be wrong.)
    Yes, Marx was particularly detached in his writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    But it is a good indication, imo. The problem is that depends on many factors: opposite Rationality, Judiciousness, Seriousness, then what are you use to focus on and then what's your aim in it: learning, looking for something or applying (taken as instructions). I think it's hard but not impossible to use this feature.

    Maybe if jason_m was more specific it would be easier to tell - for example saying he can't usually see Einstein's point, aim, or premise.
    But if I am not having this problem, nor other LIIs, is this a good indication?

    This is indeed a very-very strong point. Elsa was definitely a Fe/Si caregiver (I'm sorry she died so early ).
    But, we know she was good for him from the exterior, she was a good woman, but not Albert's view on the relationship. I found some little information that seems to point in the opposite direction, that she was not actually what it should be "his other half".
    It looks like he did not value her so much and this was a not very important episode of his life, he was just grateful (because of that sickness) and felt obliged to bear the cross. Actually he first asked her daughter as a wife - Ilsa wrote "he is prepared to marry either Mama or me".
    That's a possibility. But Einstein was nonetheless appreciative and not agitated by her behavior, as is often the case in contrary-quadra marriages. I have also read that Einstein's willingness to engage in a passionless marriage with Elsa was due to failures from his first marriage. But we are still seeing Einstein Si-seeking whatever the case may be.

    He was cheating her with his secretary, Betty Neumann, also he describes in his letters at least six women he spent his time with, during his marriage with Elsa.
    And this points to Fi-valuing how? But if you were to read about the relationship he had with his secretary, it also points to a similar pattern of Si-caregiving. Furthermore, this flirtatious behavior of Einstein's is not very consistent with ILIs, but it is a trait that is far more frequently appearing in ILEs.

    I also found this statement on their marriage:
    Though he was not always the most faithful of husbands, he cared for her deeply and enjoyed the cozy environment she created in their home.
    So whether or not there was romantic passion between, Einstein fondly received and appreciated her ability to maintain the Si qualities that surrounded him.

    So, Albert doesn't seem to gravitate around her as usually Ne/Ti types do, concerning material world. Einstein somehow scorned her, destroyed her letters and there's little information about her importance in his life.
    Where did you get this information? Because I read that Elsa asked Einstein to destroy her letters. So where is the scorn?

    He was also pretty cautious about intimacy and cosiness with spouses, a very strong argument against Ne:
    Actually you provided a case against Fi-valuing.

    I insist on the fact that escapades to relax outside the haven is not Ne/Ti. ILEs generate ideas while chatting, arguing, discussing, but these interactions with people are consuming and they need time to recharge at home.
    Einstein did that as well. This is not an either/or matter. But it is not that he engaged in escapades to relax that points to Si, but it is the nature of those escapades and what he got out of them that does point to Ne/Si.

    I agree, still, these are common traits of NTs until some extent. Promoters have built around him an image of the eccentric by excellence, amplifying his odd traits for the sake of the sensational.
    Considering that the people who frequently talked about his eccentric qualities were his close companions, I'm not entirely sure that saying that he was being promoted as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I don't know what you're talking about.
    Si-seeking.

    I'm not saying he was Fi-valuing. I'm simply saying he was not valuing her, and we both agree that she was a caregiver.
    But the evidence points to him caring for her, but more in a platonic fashion than a deep romance. But even in this, the reason why Einstein cared for her is because of her caregiving. This supports Einstein as Si-seeking.

    Where do you have the information that flirting is a trait frequently found in ILEs?
    It is an observation and a recurring pattern found in a number of ILEs, especially in fictional portrayals.

    One thing is clear, and I hope you agree: Einstein was avoiding relationship at the rapprochement of intimacy. This points more towards ILI and contrary to ILE. ILEs are usually encouraged and enthusiastic about it, while ILIs may feel uncomfortable. An ILE uses to jump women when he gets bored, this implies a level of closeness and time spent together, when they explored all and see no more reasons for excitement. They are not Don Juans (but Don Quixotes), in relationships they stabilize first, then realize the lack of potential or freedom and step forward.
    You mean like in his affairs and flirtations? Or how he ended his first marriage?

    As ILE, his regular abandonments in the moment of the basic closeness is unexplainable. It's like missing the point of all your endeavor: the unsatisfied crave for anchorage, for belonging.
    Could you elaborate?

    To have a larger view, think about the fact that ILEs are some of the people who feel rejection very painfully.
    Einstein felt this earlier in his life in terms of his academics.

    I strongly doubt you know adult ILEs in real life who are not for long-term relationships. I know none.
    I strongly doubt you know many adults of any type who are not for long-term relationships.

    Let me ask you: who would not? She was a caring and dedicated woman, what man would not appreciate these? Really, this "appreciation" alone shows nothing about Si seeking.
    The difference is made by the level of contentment which seems to be not even close to maximum in his case.
    Se and Ni-egos mainly. It shows that he what he was looking for as a companion, was someone who could alleviate Si-concerns as opposed to Se-ones. Can you show any proof of Se-seeking?

    From the internet. I did not find that she asked for burning her letters, though, and I find this odd.
    It's there. Keep looking.

    I consider scorn the fact that he never praised her for something, also the fact that he was only superficially affected by her death.
    Then let's not forget they were together in a business, he was promoted and also they were together involved Jewish matters (charities, discourses and whatnot).
    It sounds like you misunderstand scorn.

    I'm really interested in what his declared reasons for destroying the letters were, what I know for sure is that ILIs are usually embarrassed (when not ashamed ashamed) of their Si relatives. Yes, I said "Si", not Si/Fe because I know cases with Si/Te - for example one ILI friend of mine has this feeling about his LSE father and usually tells him news months later, to not be associated with his father's sayings.
    As I said, it was requested that he destroy these letters by Elsa. What you are doing here is reading things into history, and not reading things from history.

    Even if the reasons were political, but not embarrassment, my whole point (and the starting point of this issue) is that there is no evidence that he valued her as a personality.
    Yes there is, but you ignore evidence when it is inconvenient to your hypothesis. Your thread on me as an LSI demonstrated the same faults.

    Can you elaborate?
    I read it as him being cautious against being spurned by negative Fe. I myself, for example, am quite cautious against these very same things, because I am always worried about misreading the signals and transgressing a physical offense. I appreciate it, but I am still incredibly cautious about these very same things.

    What nature are a Ni/Se escapades. Tournament?
    I am more familiar with the nature of Ne/Si ones over Se/Ni ones, and his escapades are more consistent with Ne/Si valuers.

    I just explained you that generating ideas through dialog is draining for Ne/Ti and they recharge away from people, eventually with their spouse. But it seems that Einstein profited from the time alone at home to work, while relaxing with scientists on escapades - the opposite of Ne/Ti. What don't you understand?
    But none of this explains why it would be the case with Ne/Ti. Do you have examples or proof for why this is the case?

    What you miss from your theory is that ILEs are fierce fighters for their opinions, while Einstein was elegantly undisturbed exposing theories and opinions and also did not try to impose on others, or feel threatened in freedom by criticism.
    It is not a theory. It is a hypothesis. Did Jason_M not establish above that Einstein was a fierce fighter for his opinions on a number of issues?

    Watch this image with him compared to Niels Bohr (which imo is one of the greatest examples of ILE):
    This poor evidence of ILI. But the Bohr-Einstein debates are an excellent source of proof for Einstein as ILE. Einstein was reluctant to abandon his Ti-centric views and theories of the problems of quantum mechanics in favor of Bohr's Te-centric views of the matter.

    Can you show me an example showing Einstein excited, enthusiastic, inpatient, nervous, agitated, argumentative, quarreling, or anything that is specific to ILE temperament?
    ...Einstein told Besso about the dilemma that was dogging him.

    "I'm going to give up," Einstein said at one point. But as they discussed it, Einstein recalled, "I suddenly understood the key to the problem." The next day when he saw Besso, Einstein was in a state of great excitement. He skipped any greeting and immediately declared, "Thank you. I have solved the problem."
    In addition, the thought experiment suggests that he sensed a conflict between Newton's laws of mechanics and the constancy of the speed of light and Maxwell's equations. All of this instilled in him "a state of psychic tension" that he found deeply unnerving. "At the very beginning, when the special theory of relativity began to germinate in me, I was visited by all sorts of nervous conflicts," he later recalled. "When young, I used to go away for weeks in a state of confusion."
    [Time] reported that, while the world waited for his "abstruse coherent field theory" to be made public, Einstein was plodding around his country hideaway looking, "haggard, nervous, irritable."
    Einstein's impatience with authority soon pitied him against the proprietor of the academy.
    His letter did not hide his anxiety: "Your analysis interests me tremendously....The hints you gave in your messages awaken the greatest of expectations....If possible, please send me a correction proof of your study to mitigate my impatience."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I don't know if I should insist on this anymore. It is a concern for me that allegedly most Socionists typed Einstein as an ILE although, if my typing on you is correct, releasing the buoy of their opinion would mean for you the ground ran off under your feet, not only a concern, therefore a step impossible to take.
    Could you stop being condescending? My hypothesis of Einstein as an ILE was developed independently of most Socionists. And what if your typing of me is incorrect?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    You said Si-seeking, but not the reason why.
    The reasons are obvious for those who grasp the IEs.

    You have no reason to say that a platonic relationship is against Fi but pro Ne/Si. Absolutely none. Rather the other way around.
    And your reasons are?

    You may use fictional examples to create an image about a type, but not as arguments. There's no such recurrence, you may think about the real characters we both know and you'll see you're wrong: Augusta, Ayn Rand, Mendeleev, Spielberg, Disney. ILEs are all the life in search for the better/best it seems to me that the "recurrent" trait is to have 2-3-4 relationships, which also matches my real life observations.
    Horatio Nelson, John Maynard Keynes, and LaFayette were noted for their scandalous affairs. But I do not think that Ayn Rand and Wal Disney are ILEs. Do you have evidence for ILIs having flirtatious behaviors?

    This is true. But the few I remember now are: IEI male, ILI male, EIE female (very young, though), then recurrent scandalous escapades by IEI male, SEE female, EIE (not very sure) female.
    But the fact is not how many I know, but how they put the problem, the inclinations they have. I can't remember any Ne/Si people seriously considering cheating (except an SEI and LSE males, afaik), not at all living on their own.
    My ILI example actually boasts that he's completely independent and he needs nobody except his grandparents visit him to his birthdays - he travels.
    I have had a few ILE/IEE and one EII friends who have engaged in such cases of seriously cheating. But as you say, it is not a matter of how many, but the nature of their problem. Is there some reason why your mind cannot conceive of the possibility of Ne/Si people cheating?

    His affairs.
    These questions were largely rhetorical, because the behavior you ascribe to ILEs was evident here in the case of Einstein for his affairs and his marriages.

    An ILE desire is to create a bond with a partner. From the moment they know each other better and spend time together the things begin to become more interesting, more "satiating". But it seems like for Einstein that's the moment where things lose the fun.
    You are confusing types. While all types want healthy bonds between partners, the desire to create 'bonds' with partners is more strongly ascribed to Fi-valuing. How would Einstein's behavior point to Fi-valuing? And if an ILE does get to know someone better, does that always mean that things will become more interesting?

    I neither can deny or confirm this is specific, but in any case I was not talking in those terms.
    Ne types are very cautious with the opposite sex because of this fear, which usually doesn't materialize in great emotional suffering because they quickly realize that "she sucked", "she was not made for him" this would not have gone anywhere - or vice-verse, or whatever.
    The other way around is also valid: they don't try a relationship without potential. Imo you have a very distorted opinion about this type.
    Avast me hearties, for irony abounds.

    This is bullshit and you know it. Like the Se/Ni types say "no more cooking, no more washing woman, I don't like it. piss off!". My sense of reality can't admit that.
    I was being facetious. But which types would be the most receptive to it? Which types would be more likely to continue seeking the support of such behavior?

    Not more than the Se seeking in any ILI. Maybe you did not notice, but I don't use Dual-seeking in typing, especially because the IE notions usually differ from how this Super-Id function manifests.
    If you specify how this Se-seeking manifests in ILIs I might be able to answer you, though.
    I am more curious in your understanding of how it manifests.

    As long as you did not provide the source and it's not something very known, your argument is invalid and I have no reason to talk about it.

    Dud, chill out. You are speculating on this. You have no f***ing idea of what happened among them, what agreements they've made. It could be embarrassment, politics, a game, a superstition, anything!
    The only clear thing is that what he was writing was kept and what she was writing was destroyed!
    If that is the case, the lack of evidence for the motives of the destroyed letters also suggests that you should not necessarily reading and speculating scorn into the unknown motives.

    Instead of anticipating my moves, better bring that evidence among us.
    I'm not sure what good that would do me. You have a habit of ignoring evidence when it does not suit your close-minded case.

    Ok, but this doesn't mean I was talking about Fi. I was talking about intimacy, which relates to perception, not at all with J. The best way to understand my position in this matter is to re-read my article on "childish/mature".
    I agree and I am as well. But there is an interplay of IE that is occurring here, and in this case Ne/Si + weak Fe/Fi.

    Escapades are more relating to caregivers-infantiles (and their large Socionics extensions) than victims-aggressors? I hope you're joking. It's not the first time you insinuate this absurdity.
    And you complain about me reading everything you say literally?

    Maybe if you afford to live here for few months you'll have the proofs you require. So far, I can't find on the web something that would explain the quadras recharge methods and which could be consider "proofs" by you.
    And I repeat, with some exceptions, I'm always talking about "evidence" not "proofs". It's pretty uncommon to have proofs in psychology in general, it's all about analysis and evidence.
    Then what evidence or rational argumentation do you have? That was my meaning of 'proof' in this case. You keep reading past what I'm saying and taking everything I say so literally.

    He was talking about Fi valuing. As you know, Fi can be fierce, Ne can be fierce, actually all except Si and probably Ni. What does this prove? Your problem is that you can't make the distinction between these nuances, but they're not the same shit!
    If you'd be able to ever stop taking things literally we may understand each other.
    They're not the same, but you are not making a good argument against my case here. He may have been talking about Fi-valuing, but as you say, there are nuances. And in this case, what he saw as evidence for fierce Fi-valuing was more than feasible for ILEs in terms being opinionated on causes. So as you can see, I was already talking about nuances! So who is not understanding whom?

    The "Ti-centric" views you talk about seems to be dynamic, I just pointed you.

    If you check the debate timeline, Bohr was the one who immediately combated Einstein's suppositions with accuracy demands, how he actually managed to impose about some issues. He was very opinionated and tried to impose his view upon Einstein because he was sure he knew the truth, actually the only way how truth can be interpreted. But Einstein never asserted he knows the truth, simply couldn't continue his formulations because of the steadiness of the Copenhagen interpretation.

    And one more thing, if you ask me why Einstein could not continue without their acknowledgment, I think you have the answer already. Yes, Se valuing. The same weakness that renders you unable to get over the definitions, the "official" versions.

    If you have read about the debate closely, it would have been impossible for you to overlook one detail: Einstein came more than one time with flawed mind experiments. FLAWED. I answer you before you ask me why: for the simple reason that he was always turned back by Bohr and his team on this basis.
    So who was again the one with critical accuracy Ti drive and the Te one with the purpose of producing results? Not only that, but, as I told you above, his overlook for those "small details" points only towards Introverted Dynamic Base, obviously because he used to start from the idea of how the things would develop instead of how they are initially in an experiment, to have a consistent premise.

    Ti Bohr or not, Einstein was the one who always abandoned. Ti=insistent, immovable; Te=persistent, flexible. You seem to understand this, although I don't know why you can't identify them correctly in this case.
    You seem to misunderstand the nature of static and dynamic, as well as how Ti and Te manifest differently between leading and creative functions. And your reasoning throughout all of this is flawed. I'm not sure where to begin or if my explanations would even help clear your misunderstandings.

    If my typing is incorrect the same thing would happen to you as if you didn't meet me. But if I'm correct, the odds are that I'm fighting for a lost cause (telling you insights while you keep on the 'official'), which obviously, is not desirable.
    If your typing is incorrect, do I not have further reason to suspect that you misunderstand the IEs and types? I would like to know why you continue to assert that keeping on the "official" (which is a notably buzzword you use when someone goes against your opinion) is related to Se.

    Can you show me an example showing Einstein excited, enthusiastic, inpatient, nervous, agitated, argumentative, quarreling, or anything that is specific to ILE temperament?
    Is there a reason why you side-stepped the fact that I easily provided multiple pieces of evidence to answer this?
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    Entire thread is wrong. Einstein is SEE.



    Video proof.

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    Hmm... Pinocchio's IE breakdowns elsewhere weren't half-bad, but I don't quite see how they fit with the view of Einstein as ILI. I'll attempt to argue for ILE>ILI from his perspective.

    Einstein used his imagination to meld knowledge from many different branches of physics and form a model of the universe that applied to all contexts, without denying that the contexts were different (hence the name 'relativity'). He opposed quantum mechanics precisely for its uncertainties ("God does not play dice"), showing a lack of reliance on observation for truth (although he had no qualms about making observations for ideas).

    What is at work here? Options: + ("properties" and "potential") and + ("possibilities" and "progress"). I attribute his love of independent truth to - knowledge without observation or process.

    What was Bohr's view? Bohr, for some reason, wanted to limit what was true to what we could observe. This is the action of either or . For added effect, remove so that he can't agree with Einstein. (Interestingly, Bohr placed the emphasis not on what had been observed but on the process of observing, which favors .)

    I suggest that Einstein's thought experiments represented not a process without observation or conclusion (), but a setup without observation or process meant to force a certain conclusion ().



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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    This is where Ni and Ne differences interfere. His famous remark I interpret in the following manner: he doesn't care so much if the premises are real to make his reasoning to be an Extrovert. "God doesn't play dice" - why? why are you so certain there is actually a god, or he _does_ something. Staying on the same characters, Bohr is the one who tells him "don't tell god what to do", meaning stop playing with unproven assumptions.
    When Einstein said, "I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice," he is not affirming any belief in an actual supernatural deity. He states, "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." And elsewhere, "For any one who is pervaded with the sense of causal law in all that happens, who accepts in real earnest the assumption of causality, the idea of a Being who interferes with the sequence of events in the world is absolutely impossible. Neither the religion of fear nor the social-moral religion can have any hold on him." Einstein's conception of God is practically synonymous with universe. I wanted to clarify this misconception before moving on. (Otherwise there would be little reason to seriously ask, "why? why are you so certain there is actually a god, or he _does_ something.")

    So let us examine the quote: "I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

    Once more, it is safe to replace He with the Universe in this quote and acquire Einstein's meaning. Einstein is arguing against a universe that operates purely on probabilistic principles. Ni delves into the perception of probabilities. If we take pinnochio's comment of "Ne discover. Ni predict" to be true, then we can see that Bohr was much more concerned with the reality of quantum mechanics as a function of prediction and probability. What mattered for Bohr was the factual reality that could be observed. Einstein, on the other hand, was much more concerned with the internal and logical consistency of quantum mechanics in the pursuit of deriving universal laws (creative-Ti). Bohr's reply of "Don't tell [the Universe] what to do" is an objection to saying the observable is impossible because of what one (or Einstein) perceives as internal inconsistency of static causal laws (Ti).

    Is determinism (and by extension causality) incompatible with Ti/Ne or is it a Ni/Te view?

    Determinism and causality cannot be said to be purely a Ni/Te view. Spinoza (ILE/LII) was a staunch determinist. Hume (ILI), for example, was a determinist who believed that causality could not be proven. Kant (LII) also prescribed to a deterministic universe, but he believed that while causality could not be proven, it could be experientially observed by our senses in space and time. John Rawls (LII) was also associated with hard determinism. I have also found this nugget: "One of the aims of the multiple universe theory, at any rate as propounded by David Deutsch (ILE), is to preserve determinism..." So in the future, ascribing determinism to strictly Ti/Ne or with Ni/Te should probably be avoided.
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    Einstein: ILE
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Or perhaps LII...

    Keirsey "Architect" (INTP ≈ INTj)

    The disagreement between Pinocchio and Logos seems to be over whether the Rational or Irrational elements were more involved with Einstein's theory. I find Einstein's theory quite easy to think in terms of, for which reason I suspect that his ideas were not about processes but forms.

    Perhaps the "this information does not exist" of early Quantum Mechanics should be considered "just plain stupid"? "We can't know," is one thing, but... well, if a tree falls in the woods and makes no sound simply because nobody's listening, you can't have science.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post

    Perhaps the "this information does not exist" of early Quantum Mechanics should be considered "just plain stupid"? "We can't know," is one thing, but... well, if a tree falls in the woods and makes no sound simply because nobody's listening, you can't have science.
    this is an attack against and proves that ILEs love to embrace the unknown without thinking too much about details
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I can't say that I agree with that.
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    I have read all of these...only an ILE

    Collected Quotes from Albert Einstein
    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
    "Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love."
    "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."
    "The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax."
    "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
    "The only real valuable thing is intuition."
    "A person starts to live when he can live outside himself."
    "I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice."
    "God is subtle but he is not malicious."
    "Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character."
    "I never think of the future. It comes soon enough."
    "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."
    "Sometimes one pays most for the things one gets for nothing."
    "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
    "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
    "Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
    "Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one's living at it."
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
    "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."
    "God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."
    "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking."
    "Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal."
    "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."
    "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible."
    "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
    "Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school."
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
    "Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater."
    "Equations are more important to me, because politics is for the present, but an equation is something for eternity."
    "If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut."
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
    "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
    "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
    "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
    "In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep."
    "The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead."
    "Too many of us look upon Americans as dollar chasers. This is a cruel libel, even if it is reiterated thoughtlessly by the Americans themselves."
    "Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them!"
    "No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?"
    "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
    "Yes, we have to divide up our time like that, between our politics and our equations. But to me our equations are far more important, for politics are only a matter of present concern. A mathematical equation stands forever."
    "The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker."
    "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
    "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
    "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
    "The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."
    "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
    "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat."
    "One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year."
    "...one of the strongest motives that lead men to art and science is escape from everyday life with its painful crudity and hopeless dreariness, from the fetters of one's own ever-shifting desires. A finely tempered nature longs to escape from the personal life into the world of objective perception and thought."
    "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
    "A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
    "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton)
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    Quote Originally Posted by Khola View Post
    I have read all of these...only an ILE

    "God is subtle but he is not malicious."
    that's always been one of my favorites

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    Well it's said somewhere that strong Ps are likely irrationals, and strong Js are likely rationals. (this is obviously just a loosely webbed correlation, but more accurate nonetheless) I'm certainly not a strong J, and I can see for instance an INT(70%-P) fitting into ILI, more likely than many other lesser P INTPs.

    On another note, on my old MBTI forums, INTPs were regarded as the most rational NT. So there is another loosely webbed correlation, because rational can mean a few things. There are biases based on the atmosphere of the forum relating close into socionics quadra values, so the type of INTPs are different from another type of INTPs on another forum.

    I'm not really sure where this discussion is right now, but I just read the last few posts.

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