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Thread: IEE/ENFp Reinin dichotomies: Serious and Negativist

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    Default IEE/ENFp Reinin dichotomies: Serious and Negativist

    It suprised me that IEE are the Negativist and the Serious Dichtomies.

    I dont actually dispute what they say, i can definately see it, however i would have still guessed merry and positive had you have asked me. This is how i see it.

    Negativist:

    Imagine work asked me to do a speech for 20 people. My first thought wouldn't be Yahoo! what an opportunity! It
    would be holy cow, imagine how scary this would be, what if i stuff it up? etc.

    I suppose this is how negativist manifests itself.

    See i will rarely slip into Melancholy for a long time. When i get sad, occasionally i can get extremely sad. My thoughts spiral so out of control i think the world is ending. Generally this doesn't last long though, maybe 3 days at the most.

    It is said IEE has a nack of solving personal problems, and i definately see this. I twist my thoughts and change them until they become reassuring, then i go with that.

    Not to bring any other types down, but what originally confused me was that some of the positivist types seem to slip into negative thoughtstreams far more than me. My ISTj dad is continually sad / annoyed and my ISTp friend belives the world is crap and people are crap. These thoughts to me are negative.

    I was just considering the ISTp as an example though. For someone who doesn't particularly like interaction with people, thats a tough ask in todays world. You cant really avoid people easily these days. I suppose with my weaknesses("thinking") i can sidestep them easier. I did go through a Major stage of reading self-help books, and read a lot about the power of positive thinking etc, so maybe that has tipped the balance slightly?

    ENTp's i definately see as positive. They seem to believe in positive thinking etc and ensure they practice it rigorously lol. So it seems to me that Positive types can still easily have lots of negative thoughts, however when it comes to action, they have a more positive outlook.

    Serious:

    This is also an interesting one. I can definately see how i am serious. I do take life seriously and can slip into "serious mode" fairly often. When im in a good mood, i would have thought i would be merry though. Easy going and happy to laugh with people / make jokes etc. Still in public i suppose im not as likely to laugh as much / as hard as some of the betas i hang out with at work.

    Anyway of course i haven't stated anything revolutionary, in fact im sure this is exactly how the descriptions probalby are.
    I just cant damn well sleeep and i need to get up in 6 hours lol
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    I like to think of it like this:
    When a positivist sizes up a situation, he evaluates it based on how much positive potential there is: how much he stands to make/advance/improve etc. When a negativist sizes up a situation, he evaluates it based on the negative potential: what could go wrong, what he stands to lose, etc.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Yea

    I think in my own special way thats what i was trying to get to. I suppose what i was also saying is that positivist types seem to be just as prone to negative thinking about overall concepts like their life etc than negative ones.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    I seem to flip flop depending on whom Im around. I have one friend who is always grumpy and negative and so I play devils advocate being positive and open to new experiences. This tends to pull him out of his scepticism. Then I know of another person who is always trying to get me to do their stuff, which usually is good stuff but Im always thinking "How much is this going to cost me? How long will this take?, Will I have a good time? Am I really in the mood?" I dont verbalize all that but those are questions I have to answer to myself. The older I get the more serious I get and Id like to think that Im not negative but realistic.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Default Re: IEE, Serious and Negativist

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    Imagine work asked me to do a speech for 20 people. My first thought wouldn't be Yahoo! what an opportunity! It
    would be holy cow, imagine how scary this would be, what if i stuff it up? etc.
    Ah! By this token, I'd be positivist. I'd think "What an opportunity to impress my crowd "

    I'm very negativist in regard to romantic matters.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Who are the people who are always saying, "Plan for the worst, hope for the best." Are they negativist or positivist. I don't really understand how someone could follow that saying, because if you're planning for something isn't it because that's what you expect to happen?
    I sincerely try to stay away from people like those, especially if the always is to be taken literally. I've usually heard it from unhealthy ISxJ, therefore I would chain it to Ne PoLR.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Who are the people who are always saying, "Plan for the worst, hope for the best." Are they negativist or positivist. I don't really understand how someone could follow that saying, because if you're planning for something isn't it because that's what you expect to happen?
    I sincerely try to stay away from people like those, especially if the always is to be taken literally. I've usually heard it from unhealthy ISxJ, therefore I would chain it to Ne PoLR.
    I'm a bit like that And I see no problem following that saying. I think everything in probabilities. Like let's say something has 80% probability to take a path A and 20% probability to take a path B. Then I will hope and generally anticipate path A but also prepare myself for path B. So I am able to reap the benefits in case path A is realised but I can survive and prosper even in case path B is realised. Of course, in short term, this doesn't maximize your "profits" because you will spend some energy to prepare for the "wrong" path. In the long term I believe it to be a very good approach and is analogous to spreading your investments in several instruments instead of betting everything on one instrument. I just sort of apply this investment principle to everything not just financial aspects in my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Who are the people who are always saying, "Plan for the worst, hope for the best." Are they negativist or positivist. I don't really understand how someone could follow that saying, because if you're planning for something isn't it because that's what you expect to happen?
    I sincerely try to stay away from people like those, especially if the always is to be taken literally. I've usually heard it from unhealthy ISxJ, therefore I would chain it to Ne PoLR.
    I'm a bit like that And I see no problem following that saying. I think everything in probabilities. Like let's say something has 80% probability to take a path A and 20% probability to take a path B. Then I will hope and generally anticipate path A but also prepare myself for path B. So I am able to reap the benefits in case path A is realised but I can survive and prosper even in case path B is realised. Of course, in short term, this doesn't maximize your "profits" because you will spend some energy to prepare for the "wrong" path. In the long term I believe it to be a very good approach and is analogous to spreading your investments in several instruments instead of betting everything on one instrument. I just sort of apply this investment principle to everything not just financial aspects in my life.
    If you just do it I have no problem, but I cannot stand when people repeat it like it's the maxim upon which they base their own life. Besides, how do you assess probabilities?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Who are the people who are always saying, "Plan for the worst, hope for the best." Are they negativist or positivist. I don't really understand how someone could follow that saying, because if you're planning for something isn't it because that's what you expect to happen?
    It's the same philosophy behind wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, wearing your seatbelt in a car, or any other number of saftey precautions. Do you expect to wreck? Of course not. Does that mean you shouldn't take reasonable steps to be prepared for a wreck? Not really.

    Of course, there's no reason to build your car with a roll cage and fill it full of soft foam to go with your air bag just because you might get in a fenderbender. There is such a thing as going overboard.
    That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche

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    I really don't see myself as a negativist - I feel like I'm always seeing potential good. But my husband thinks I'm negative. I asked him a while back if he'd call me "negative" or "positive" and he said I always think something bad is going to happen. Like he'll want to do something with our daughter that seems risky to me (like give her a ride on his minibike), and I think of a million ways she could get hurt. It scares me to think about it right now, and she's safe on the couch drawing a picture.

    I'm in a weird headachey mood today so it might not be a good time for me to think about this too much.

    I don't see myself as "serious" either. But the names for the dichotomies aren't that great.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Who are the people who are always saying, "Plan for the worst, hope for the best." Are they negativist or positivist. I don't really understand how someone could follow that saying, because if you're planning for something isn't it because that's what you expect to happen?
    I sincerely try to stay away from people like those, especially if the always is to be taken literally. I've usually heard it from unhealthy ISxJ, therefore I would chain it to Ne PoLR.
    I'm a bit like that And I see no problem following that saying. I think everything in probabilities. Like let's say something has 80% probability to take a path A and 20% probability to take a path B. Then I will hope and generally anticipate path A but also prepare myself for path B. So I am able to reap the benefits in case path A is realised but I can survive and prosper even in case path B is realised. Of course, in short term, this doesn't maximize your "profits" because you will spend some energy to prepare for the "wrong" path. In the long term I believe it to be a very good approach and is analogous to spreading your investments in several instruments instead of betting everything on one instrument. I just sort of apply this investment principle to everything not just financial aspects in my life.
    If you just do it I have no problem, but I cannot stand when people repeat it like it's the maxim upon which they base their own life. Besides, how do you assess probabilities?
    I don't calculate exact probabilities. It is mostly subconscious. I might get a certain feeling that something is "almost sure", "very likely", "50/50, "can't really tell", "not very likely", "highly unlikely" etc. These are of course based on the data I perceive but the calculations are not conscious or exact. Then I sort of keep a dynamic network of these likelihoods in my head. They re-evaluate whenever I get new data. Sometimes they can change even radically if I get conflicting data in. This is one reason I have problems fixing myself in some goal. If I get data which suggests that my goal leads me to wrong direction I have to discard the goal. Mentally the sense that I'm moving in "right direction" or "most probable direction" is more important than achieving a certain fixed goal. But goals help me to focus so they are not a bad thing themselves. They just may become a burden if you don't have freedom to change them as you will.

    Perhaps that is then or something? Or is it ? Or is it non type related thing.

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    I have recently began to notice how Bi-Polar my feelings really are. I can now tell my phases. If i learn something good, it can often lift me into a high for about a week or so. During this time i am funny, happy, people talk to me lots, im productive etc.

    Then something will trigger me, probablly a lot of small bad things and i will feel this happiness dying and my confidence slipping somewhat. Then i go through a down-ish stage, then i feel myself going up again.

    Im sure everyones like that but im probablly more extreme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz
    I seem to flip flop depending on whom Im around. The older I get the more serious I get and Id like to think that Im not negative but realistic.
    I dont want to get too serious when i get older
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    I have created an image of the Average Range of emotions of ISTp and ENFp's:



    Fig 1. As you can see from my fabulous picture, the ENFp's range of emotions are quite large. They can feel extremely happy and excited, also feeling extremes of the opposite nature. Much like taking an Extacy pill, then feeling the inevitable comedown.


    Fig 2. The ISTp has a smaller range of emotions. Of course they can also feel extremes of happines and sadness, however their Average range of emotions are more levelled than the ENFp.

    Fig 3. Shows an ENFp and ISTp who have "got giggy". They are in a dualised relationship. As you can see the ISTp has levelled the ENFp's emotions and made them more stable. The ENFp has raised the mood of the ISTp to be at a happier level. They are both happier because they are no longer single and are now getting Laid on a frequent basis.


    Please not that the sun in the corner is happy, making this a "happy" diagram.

    *I used a diagram and Fig 1,2,3 etc as it was enjoyable to sound Intelligent*

    n.b - I do not condone the use of illegal drugs
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    ROFL That's cute
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Nice diagram meatburger, the sun is happy and therefore clearly agrees
    This is how I pictured it in my mind, Si being a leveler of emotions, restricting its range somewhat. I wonder what the range of emotions for all the types would be.
    Friendly ISTp
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    I have recently began to notice how Bi-Polar my feelings really are. I can now tell my phases. If i learn something good, it can often lift me into a high for about a week or so. During this time i am funny, happy, people talk to me lots, im productive etc.

    Then something will trigger me, probablly a lot of small bad things and i will feel this happiness dying and my confidence slipping somewhat. Then i go through a down-ish stage, then i feel myself going up again.
    The alpha coefficient of the autoregressive function of your moods are close to one


    forgive me, I've been studying too much
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    I have created an image of the Average Range of emotions of ISTp and ENFp's:

    Fig 1. As you can see from my fabulous picture, the ENFp's range of emotions are quite large. They can feel extremely happy and excited, also feeling extremes of the opposite nature. Much like taking an Extacy pill, then feeling the inevitable comedown.


    Fig 2. The ISTp has a smaller range of emotions. Of course they can also feel extremes of happines and sadness, however their Average range of emotions are more levelled than the ENFp.

    Fig 3. Shows an ENFp and ISTp who have "got giggy". They are in a dualised relationship. As you can see the ISTp has levelled the ENFp's emotions and made them more stable. The ENFp has raised the mood of the ISTp to be at a happier level. They are both happier because they are no longer single and are now getting Laid on a frequent basis.


    Please not that the sun in the corner is happy, making this a "happy" diagram.

    *I used a diagram and Fig 1,2,3 etc as it was enjoyable to sound Intelligent*

    n.b - I do not condone the use of illegal drugs
    Haha, this is very funny and typically IEE. I think the negativism of IEEs comes through in irony and mockery such as your humor here. You're basically making fun of cliches. IEEs love to do this. A classic example is Mark Twain, with his famously hilarious ridicule of the German language, of various nationalities, etc. etc. ILEs by comparison try to talk about the positive aspects of things and don't feel confident ridiculing, in contrast to the prime ridiculor IEE, who does it all with irony and a smile on his (her) face.

    All that "serious" means, or whatever the Reinin trait is, is that is in the Quadra values, not . So there's less outward displays of emotion and group feeling and more doing.

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    The definition of the word "irony" came up in conversation the other day and I was trying to wrap my mind around it and differentiate it from sarcasm. It seems to be used in different ways than I am accustomed to so I looked it up. However, Im still not sure I understand what is meant when a someone says "He is being ironic." I understand ironic situations but how does a person use irony. Can anyone explain? Like how was Meatburger being ironic?

    1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning -- called also Socratic irony

    2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance

    3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play -- called also dramatic irony, tragic irony

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Default Re: IEE, Serious and Negativist

    Yes, I'm definitely serious and negativist. I don't think most people would notice this about ENFps, with all the giggling and smiling and making things into play time. but it's always underneath.

    With other people's problems, I'm very positive and can see all of their strenghts and good potential. In my own life, I tend to expect the worst. Nothing's worse than getting my hopes up and being let down.

    I think this is because I tend to over-react to both bad and good and probably go through more emotions in a day than a lot of people have in a year. One of my days could be a lifetime movie, but the plot would be very simplistic like: traffic on highway (dramatic over-reaction scene), freshly baked cookies at work (dancing for joy and tears of happiness), separated from favorite stapler (anxious scene), reunited with stapler (joyful scene), etc....

    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    It suprised me that IEE are the Negativist and the Serious Dichtomies.

    I dont actually dispute what they say, i can definately see it, however i would have still guessed merry and positive had you have asked me. This is how i see it.

    Negativist:

    Imagine work asked me to do a speech for 20 people. My first thought wouldn't be Yahoo! what an opportunity! It
    would be holy cow, imagine how scary this would be, what if i stuff it up? etc.

    I suppose this is how negativist manifests itself.

    See i will rarely slip into Melancholy for a long time. When i get sad, occasionally i can get extremely sad. My thoughts spiral so out of control i think the world is ending. Generally this doesn't last long though, maybe 3 days at the most.

    It is said IEE has a nack of solving personal problems, and i definately see this. I twist my thoughts and change them until they become reassuring, then i go with that.

    Not to bring any other types down, but what originally confused me was that some of the positivist types seem to slip into negative thoughtstreams far more than me. My ISTj dad is continually sad / annoyed and my ISTp friend belives the world is crap and people are crap. These thoughts to me are negative.

    I was just considering the ISTp as an example though. For someone who doesn't particularly like interaction with people, thats a tough ask in todays world. You cant really avoid people easily these days. I suppose with my weaknesses("thinking") i can sidestep them easier. I did go through a Major stage of reading self-help books, and read a lot about the power of positive thinking etc, so maybe that has tipped the balance slightly?

    ENTp's i definately see as positive. They seem to believe in positive thinking etc and ensure they practice it rigorously lol. So it seems to me that Positive types can still easily have lots of negative thoughts, however when it comes to action, they have a more positive outlook.

    Serious:

    This is also an interesting one. I can definately see how i am serious. I do take life seriously and can slip into "serious mode" fairly often. When im in a good mood, i would have thought i would be merry though. Easy going and happy to laugh with people / make jokes etc. Still in public i suppose im not as likely to laugh as much / as hard as some of the betas i hang out with at work.

    Anyway of course i haven't stated anything revolutionary, in fact im sure this is exactly how the descriptions probalby are.
    I just cant damn well sleeep and i need to get up in 6 hours lol
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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