View Poll Results: Is everyone equal (without any presumptions)

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Thread: Is it possible to talk to anyone without presumptions?

  1. #1
    Kristiina's Avatar
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    Default Is it possible to talk to anyone without presumptions?

    Tell me this - is it possible to talk to anyone without presumptions?

    When you start talking to a stranger, can you do it without making any presumption about him/her beforehand? Is everyone equal at the beginning of the first conversation?
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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    Not really. This might sound shallow, but looks matter in this situation. Once I get to know you, I don't care as much, but at the beginning, I am more likely to want to talk to someone with at least an average amount of attractiveness.

    Don't get pissed at me for this, and tell me that I'm a shallow bitch. I honestly don't care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Not really. This might sound shallow, but looks matter in this situation. Once I get to know you, I don't care as much, but at the beginning, I am more likely to want to talk to someone with at least an average amount of attractiveness.

    Don't get pissed at me for this, and tell me that I'm a shallow bitch. I honestly don't care.
    you shallow bitch. thou shalt burn in hell for thine shallowness.


    i dont see the problem with not having presumptions about a person. to the extent that they do exist simply from arbitrary details such as the person's appearance, they can be easily ignored or repressed.

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    Default Re: Presumptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Tell me this - is it possible to talk to anyone without presumptions?
    Yes, if they are standing behind a wall and you can't see them.

    I couldn't imagine ever talking to someone randomly and not have any presumptions at all. I think people always do a once over kinda glance with anyone they come in contact with...or maybe that's just me.

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    Creepy-Diana

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    I pretty much just pay attention to what the person is doing. I only notice their outside characteristics if it's something very obvious or if it's related to my understanding of the situation... so I barely notice a lot of characteristics, much less make assumptions based on them.

    One time I went to the court house and came home and told Peter about how one of the security guards was harassing me. He stopped me and was acting all flirty and wanted to search my purse, and then his boss came and yelled at him. Peter was like, "Lol. Was he black?" and I was like "ummmmmmmmmm..... I don't recall...." and had to think for a moment. Keep in mind that I live in the 3rd most segregated city in the world. Tensions between races are higher here than they are in most places.
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    Creepy-Diana

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    I think the poll was asking about presumptions based on physical characteristics (if I'm not mistaken). Even if that's not the case, my vote would still be yes because I'm more concerned with what's actually going on than I am reflective about specific things like what you're describing. I am aware of them, but it's on a passing level.
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    Default Re: Presumptions

    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Tell me this - is it possible to talk to anyone without presumptions?
    Yes, if they are standing behind a wall and you can't see them.
    I'd be inclined to make even more assumptions about the person, with the visual aspect gone, lol... based solely on their voice and what they say.

    When someone approaches me, I'm actually more concerned with myself and worry more about how I come across to them for fear of seeming cold, or unsympathetic, or just stupid. I think the human mind is trained to make assumptions. We try to gather as much data as possible, subconsciously. When there's missing data, we fill in the gaps. Sometimes we fill in the wrong answer, but it really doesn't matter all that much. Golden rule and all.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  10. #10
    Creepy-aurora_faerie

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    i dunno if i presume....i guess i do if i dont feel like putting in the effort to see behind peoples acts

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    Obviously, and fortunately, nobody is equal. Again, more attractive people are definitely more noticeable, but that's not the main criteria for me to talk to them.

    If I were to think about it, I'd define a function on two variables, which are the amount of positive emotions a person radiates, and his/her apparent introversion. Of course, the two parameters are inversely correlated.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I've often walked up to people I don't know in order to ask them for directions or something simple like that. I never thought one thing or the other about them, I was just so focused on completing whatever it was I was trying to do at the time.

    Also when I'm in a classroom or some other social situation I'll usually talk to anybody who's near by and when I do I don't think much about them in the sense of judging who they are or what they look like. But then again as far as appearences go I don't really pay attention either, I'm usually too stuck in my own mind to notice anything

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    The first thing I consider in deciding to talk to someone is whether or not that person will harass me. The second is if they seem interesting.
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    When I meet someone there are at least two criterias I evaluate. 1) Do I get the impression that this person has something interesting to say (intellectual compatibility) 2) Do I get the impression that this person will make me "feel good". These two are actually somewhat connected but not the same thing. Sometimes it is very fun to chat with someone even if they have really nothing to say as long as they "radiate" certain things. Sometimes people can be magnetic just because they have so much to give in the intellectual sense.

    Now about looks. I don't think looks have too much effect on me unless it is to the extreme somehow. Extremely hot, extremely not, extremely making a statement. So looks come to play in case they are somehow "disruptive". E.g. talking to a gothic vampire, talking to extremely beautiful girl who is dressed provocatively, talking to someone who haven't taken a shower for a week. Everything that sort of "stands out" affects me. If everybody else around are wearing jeans but one person is wearing a suit then that makes me wonder what is going on. If everyone else is carrying a backpack and one person is carrying a suitcase that also is somehow "disruptive". And things like that.

    But ok how person takes care of themselves probably tells something about their general attitude. If someone spends a LOT of money to clothes then they probably pay attention to what other people wear. If someone dresses like Einstein and have a similar haircut then they probably don't pay that much attention to what other people wear. So I'm using looks and first impressions to "model" the other person but not to "rank" them. Kind of like what socionics does. Grouping without ranking.

    Then there are some other things like I have some bad experiences from certain groups like nazi-skinheads so when I see one it reminds me of those experiences and I begin wondering whether "this person is like the others". But as said I always give a person a chance to prove me wrong Also if someone says they are leftist liberal or rightist conservative that also gives me a first impression to start from. Etc etc.

    Well I guess it is hard to avoid somekind of initial reaction. Now I don't know if that is grouping or not. Or does that make me see others as unequal. I'm thinking of being democratic (in dichotomy sense) now so it is probably not aristocratic grouping that I do anyways

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen Itilies
    Also when I'm in a classroom or some other social situation I'll usually talk to anybody who's near by and when I do I don't think much about them in the sense of judging who they are or what they look like.
    Lol. Actually I didn't really even think about this stuff. It didn't actually occur to me that people do this in an official setting like work meeting or classroom.
    I can perfectly understand that you hang out with the people you like when the meeting or class is over but when I'm in an "official" situation I'm only thinking about accomplishing whatever it is I'm trying to do. It doesn't really matter who I'm doing it with and what they look like. Unless of course they are TOO incompetent or TOO difficult to work with.

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    Kristiina's Avatar
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    I think it must be the aristocratic thing. Aristocrats say "No, everyone is not equal" and they consider "gut feeling" to be important. The poll results show that all betas said no.

    I also have to admit that my answers are very similar to the beta answers - I make lots of presumptions and his/her personality kinda starts to narrow down with each new thing that I learn about him/her. I can never start a conversation before I have decided where I stand and where the other person stands. I suppose I tend to treat service-people rather coldly and I tend to be too agreeable with professors, but I don't think it's an entirely bad thing. It's just a thing.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    the results here aer slightly tainted by the fact that the vast majority of the posters in this thread have been aristocrats. but, so far, this thread does seem to imply that this is a democrat/aristocrat difference, which is what i was thinking when i first saw this thread.

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    Kristiina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    the results here aer slightly tainted by the fact that the vast majority of the posters in this thread have been aristocrats. but, so far, this thread does seem to imply that this is a democrat/aristocrat difference, which is what i was thinking when i first saw this thread.
    Every once in a while it's good to put aside theories and see if they actually work IRL. Actually this thread was about the prediction of the poll results. I wanted to see if I understood aristocracy correctly. The alternative theory is that it's actually Fe preference, but aristocracy is more likely.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    The alternative theory is that it's actually Fe preference, but aristocracy is more likely.
    perhaps both are factors? making ENFjs the most evil of all types

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    The alternative theory is that it's actually Fe preference, but aristocracy is more likely.
    perhaps both are factors? making ENFjs the most evil of all types
    Evil = power = high coolness factor = ENFj

    I think I can live with that.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    lol
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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I think it must be the aristocratic thing. Aristocrats say "No, everyone is not equal" and they consider "gut feeling" to be important. The poll results show that all betas said no.

    I also have to admit that my answers are very similar to the beta answers - I make lots of presumptions and his/her personality kinda starts to narrow down with each new thing that I learn about him/her. I can never start a conversation before I have decided where I stand and where the other person stands. I suppose I tend to treat service-people rather coldly and I tend to be too agreeable with professors, but I don't think it's an entirely bad thing. It's just a thing.
    I do exactly the opposite. I try to treat service people the most kidly possible, and professors coldly. The more authority somebody has over me, the less good he/she is going to be treated.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    ^ I am pretty much the same way as FDG says. I always try to say Hello or at least smile to the cleaning people at college. They are immensly invaluable, and I don't really ever say that, but I always think about it. And attitudes of superiority don't go over very well at all.

    In my mind, I think at the end of the year I should write them a note or just tell them flat out, but sometimes I don't always do it. But whatever the case, I respect people who do that sort of stuff a lot. I always develop a good relationship with the lunch people it seems, or the people who work at the register -- more so if they are elderly. When it's kids, they're usually of in their own world, unless it's someone I know, then I try to say hello.


    In general, I'm horrible at this sort of thing (judgements), because everything a person does points out something about who they are (to me), and generates a model. Not just socionics wise, but other things, too. I try to withold real judgement until a decent amount of time has passed, and I make efforts to make sure I'm not mislead by a fluke behavior or instance. I don't honestly think I could not be judgemental, so I just understand that and try to counterbalance it with awareness of this tendency. But I'm not always successful, either
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    =)

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    I treat waitresses as friendly as I can, but there are cleaners and other "invisible" people everywhere. I start feeling awkward that they are cleaning and I'm not, so I just decide not to make a big deal about them being there. I can be rather cold because of that. I don't react to their presence, but I notice them, so actually I'm knowingly ignoring them.

    But really - what am I supposed to do? Use my active Fe-cheerful energy? Why? What's the point of wasting my energy. Most people don't even like Fe. Well.. it might have something to do with EJ temperament. All or nothing. I can either be an energizer bunny who talks to everyone with full enthusiasm in interest or show a shield that shelters from the emotions of others. (I won't let any emotions in or out).
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    I voted yes/beta.

    Before a conversation I'm thinking "they don't know what I'm thinking", they're thinking "I don't know what he's thinking", we're thinking "what is he/she thinking." At the conclusion of most conversations I'm thinking "what were they thinking? I think :wink:
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    i had an intensive gossip session with a few collegues on this subject.

    there's this guy in my class who used to have really long dreads. they made him look really fuckin' manly. kinda like an uglier version of Lenny Kravitz. you know, the ganja smoker who speaks like he came right from the island mon :wink: .

    he sat in front. the prof asked a question and he raised his big hand. everybody sat quiet waiting to hear the baritone speak. he looked cool with no affect, didn't even glance behind his back. then he spoke. i was fucking in ! i had to hold myself from straight up laughing! he sounded like a goddamn castrato! one girl who sat right next to him couldn't stop giggling. he sounds like your high-pitched prissy aunt nobody can stand. it was horrendous. one top of it, he is effeminate. it really killed everybody's first impression. so, the second impression remains. everytime he speaks somebody gets whiplash. the voice just doesn't fit the bill. now, that he's shaved off his dreads well, he just reminds me of a girl stuck in some dude's body.

    i'd say everyone has presumptions whether they like it or not. the impression you make on people really matters. the clothes do not make the man but they go a long way in the perception others have of him.
    IEI - the nasty kind...

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