Do any men truly like INTj women?

[James (female INTJ)]

Are there any men out there who aren't completely turned off by the INTJ personality on us ladies, or who don't simply want to try (and fail) to use us for a fling?

I'm a decent looking chick and I NEVER get asked out. I have to conclude that it's because my personality turns most (if not all) men off... What I've read on the web doesn't give me much hope, either. Even the guys who claim to like INTJ women sound a bit like they're talking about some sort of odd fetish when they sing our praises. I feel doomed to be pigeon-holed into the 'aloof bitch' category forever, but if that's all the news you've got for me, I'd still like to hear it.

[Hugo]

I'm INTj and would find INTj women attractive, due to their softness. Good looks is a bonus.

[James (female INTJ)]

Ahh yes, we INTJs are soft under the shell. And certainly good looks are imperative to guys in general. This is just how things are. Even my ex admitted that my looks were a big draw for him (not that I am extraorinarily gifted in that area)... I was flattered and disappointed, but not surprised.

[Hugo]

For me to fall in love with a woman, softness is a significant factor. Just because a woman has a pretty face doesn't mean that I will fall in love with her.

[James (female INTJ)]

Right - guys generally want looks and personality. Just saying that (at least for me), as a girl, I can have a huge crush on a guy with quite, ummm, shall we say 'Quasimodoan' looks. That just seems to be how men and women are wired. But I really am interested in hearing about that personality bit right now, as I am convinced that it is my personality which is biting me on my proverbial ass, and not my 'good enough' looks.

[Hugo]

If you're looking for a guy that will value your personality, this site is full of those guys!

[James (female INTJ)]

If you are 'put off' by female INTJs I'd like to hear about their irritating behavior and if possible get some concrete examples of things they did that were especially off putting.

If you have a soft spot for them, what are the qualities you find endearing?

Much appreciated.

[Expat]

Right - guys generally want looks and personality. Just saying that (at least for me), as a girl, I can have a huge crush on a guy with quite, ummm, shall we say 'Quasimodoan' looks. That just seems to be how men and women are wired. But I really am interested in hearing about that personality bit right now, as I am convinced that it is my personality which is biting me on my proverbial ass, and not my 'good enough' looks.

I'm an INTJ and I'm easily attracted to INTJ women (I have known very few, and I'm not 100% sure that they were INTJ) since I greatly value their ability to have meaningful and interesting conversations; I always feel comfortable talking to them since I get concerned about being misunderstood. However, my relationships with them never went anywhere.

However, other types of men, especially ESxx ones, may find a female INTJ's independent and detached personality a turn-off, because they don't understand you. Actually I think such types may find you a bit intimidating.

It's like that for us, too. An ESFP woman friend of mine - or perhaps acquaintance would be more accurate - recently blurted out to me, "why can't you be like everyone else, why can't you be normal"?

[Hugo]

What you need to know is that you will get on best with the following types:

ESFj
ISFp
ENTp
INTj

You will have problems with the other types.

[James (female INTJ)]

An ESFP woman friend of mine - or perhaps acquaintance would be more accurate - recently blurted out to me, "why can't you be like everyone else, why can't you be normal"?

I am laughing with you... I feel like people are thinking exactly this about me all the time!

[XcaliburGirl]

Same problem here. I never get asked out and I've never been sure if it was looks or type or my personality.
I don't really consider myself to be very attractive, but yesterday a fireman said to me "Since when do they have supermodels on the first aid squad?" so maybe I'm wrong.

Sometimes I get to the point where I want to ask every male person of my aquaintence: "What's wrong with me?" I don't think it would do much good though, since there's no way I'm going to change myself to their conception of "normal" anyway.

Well, at least I can take some comfort--not much--that I'm not the only one.

Waddlesworth seems to go for INTj girls, he's ENTp I think.

Actually, what would help the most is to hear from the guys that DON'T like female INTjs, as to why.

[WVBRY]

What you need to know is that you will get on best with the following types:

ESFj
ISFp
ENTp
INTj

You will have problems with the other types.

You will have problems with those types too, even dual. Dont oversimplify the complex cesspool of factors thats influence relationships.

To james: I havent known many INTJ women but they seem to have a sneaky sense of humor which I kind if find sexy.

It would be worse if you had a sex change. Then not only would you complain noone asks you out, but youd have to do all the asking. For an introvert with weak that sounds like fun.

[Expat]

Actually, what would help the most is to hear from the guys that DON'T like female INTjs, as to why.

I can't speak for myself, but here's what I've heard from men who didn't like women who (I thought) were INTJs: basically too cold, aloof, and unresponsive to flirting and the like. Also a bit intimidating due to their intelligence and independence. So not "sexy" in a conventional way, regardless of their looks.

I'm speaking of the reasons why a guy might not want to ask a female INTJ out -- of first impressions.

[kellenheller]

I'm an INTJ female and have trouble with relationships with both sexes. I do have that softness that seems to be desirable, but there's a lot of cold, aloof, intimidating crunchy shell to get through first. Not many people are even capable of penetrating it. It's not something I can change either - being all friendly and approachable feels phony to me - can't do it.

I tend to go for ISTPs (bad boys ), INTJs and ESFXs. I adore INTPs, and they seem to adore me in the abstract, but they never seem to cross the barrier and initiate anything.

But like another poster said, I'm not about to go changing myself just to get a man. I'm divorced now, and have lots of match.com first dates (which is torture), but very few turn into something more. I figure it'll happen eventually, and the man will be worth it - wickedly intelligent and funny and sexy and confident.

[James (female INTJ)]

Sometimes I get to the point where I want to ask every male person of my aquaintence: "What's wrong with me?" I don't think it would do much good though, since there's no way I'm going to change myself to their conception of "normal" anyway.

Well, at least I can take some comfort--not much--that I'm not the only one.

Actually, what would help the most is to hear from the guys that DON'T like female INTjs, as to why.

Get the feeling that, like me, you are NOT one of those with the attitude "I'm not going to change for any man, and screw all those guys who don't fall to their knees in awe of me". Instead, you wish you could be all girly and flirty but it just isn't going to happen.

And yeah, need to hear from the INTJ female 'haters', was really hoping that guy who is 'turned off from INTJ women for life' would give me the scoop...

I tend to go for ISTPs (bad boys ), INTJs and ESFXs. I adore INTPs, and they seem to adore me in the abstract, but they never seem to cross the barrier and initiate anything.

I've still got a great INTP friend, can't imagine dating him, even if he were still in the local area. Too much like me in all the wrong ways! As for bad boys: Booh! I don't think I could handle ANY more bad boys, not that I've been around many, I just bruise far to easily to take much of that sort of abuse. Bad boys did have an appeal when I was just a bit younger but I am 'so over them'.

[Waddlesworth]

Are there any men out there who aren't completely turned off by the INTJ personality on us ladies, or who don't simply want to try (and fail) to use us for a fling?

I'm a decent looking chick and I NEVER get asked out. I have to conclude that it's because my personality turns most (if not all) men off... What I've read on the web doesn't give me much hope, either. Even the guys who claim to like INTJ women sound a bit like they're talking about some sort of odd fetish when they sing our praises. I feel doomed to be pigeon-holed into the 'aloof bitch' category forever, but if that's all the news you've got for me, I'd still like to hear it.

Alright, I'll tell you, INTj women are irrisistible to me. There is no "odd fetish" about them for me, i genuinely am attracted to the creativity and intelligence. Of course, being an ENTp i am looking for alot of attention. They give it, but I find that they run around alot and like to do their own thing constantly. At least from my experience they are always running around and walking out, doing whatever. It isn't so bothersome except for the fact that they tend not to express the significant feelings that they have for individuals, especially not to their faces. Like, they will discuss the people they care about in conversation(you can tell who thye like by how much they talk about the little things they do with them)It seems like people(seems!) to them are somehow accessories for fun experiences and memories. The emotion always seems synthetic and superficial.

The above is sorta incoherent, but I think i get the point across. And it isn't just about looks- I dated one that wasn't very attractive for two years. Its often a draining experience though, and can become depressive after a while, a sort of "alienation" can definitely occur. This probably has alot to do with alot of changes in life. Perceivers can adapt easily, but judgers tend to get overwhelmed and try to systemize everything.

They also seem like "takers" to me. They always seem bottle up all of the nice things people say about them without really giving in return(unless its an ISFp). I often find myself running on empty with them. I am the only one making the necessary steps towards establishing a serious relationship. In all cases mutual attraction and interest has been established, but then the atmosphere that begins to develop starts to tear away at my self confidence. Its all about transfering your energy. I can start out confident with one, and then find my confidence in myself as a human being drained by their frequent coldness, sorta a thermodynamic anology(and I am normally a pretty confident guy). This is a mirror thing though, I am sure.

But the strain i am suffering with an INTj female right now is hellish for me. it is a living hell. So don't for once think that you, if you are reasonably attractive, can't get men. Men will come to you if you are around them long enough. Plenty of us are looking for love.

But i read here someone said, a divorcee, that you shouldn't change yourself for anyone. Well, maybe not, but i think that adaptation is an important thing for a relationship. Unless you're talking duality. but this IS a socionics page, so with duality you won't have to worry about changing, anyway.

Girls, if you're looking for a short term relationship, you have gotta give. so what if you're really warm inside? its about letting a man know he is worth something to you. If a man try's to love you and you break him down by neglecting his love, he won't feel like much of a man anymore.

But this is sorta biased right now. in my current situation she is with someone and has to go away for school at the end of the summer. we both are very attracted to one another, but she can't seem to break out of her ESTp relationship, and she works absurd hours, lives just a little bit too far away, and never seems to want to force in time for me, which makes me sad

But god, as XcaliburGirl said, i so totally big time go for INTj females. To be quite honest, i want to marry one of them someday. The ones that i have been around have such a constructive creativity, its irresistible.

So, to answer your question, yes, i truly like INTj women. Its getting them to calm the fuck down and just wing it now and again that irritates me.

[XcaliburGirl]

WaddlesW, I'm really sorry you're having such a hard time. You seem like a great, intelligent guy (I always appreciate your posts) so I hope that girl comes to her senses.
Yup, we INTj gals have a hard time expressing affection. I'm terrible at giving compliments, even when they're sincere and necessary. Although it may not really help you, I think you've got to remember that often Attention=Affection. It's the best we can do without a huge, scary effort.
You're right, I always talk, seemingly superficially, alot about the guy I like. That's because I find him so interesting. But, do I tell him that? Usually, I can't manage it.
Of course, some of this may be just me personally, but it does seem to correlate with your observations.

About changing, I don't want (and can't really) change who I am, but I can change my behavior and try to amend my flaws and weak points. Thanks for the heads-up on some of these issues, WW.

[Waddlesworth]

Well thank you too, xcaliburgirl! I appreciate your posts as well- always meaningful and interesting. Everyone on this site has their own personality and gifts. You fit in the category of "cool person that I like"

Yeah, the worst feeling in the world is knowing someone is suffering trying to "change" themselves. Just so long as i know the love and compassion is there i am satisfied.

I have noticed that people's weaker functions are always able to appreciate the value of things alot more(too bad we often screw it up for ourselves). For an ENTp it is the value of love and commitment, for an INTj it seems to be appreciating texture, flavor, etc... PTL describes this well.

A good example I can think of is when the INTj i am having all of this stress over buys herself a strawberry kiwi snapple and a cinnamon bun with frosting. She just knows it is a good, nice treat, and she buys it when she is unhappy or stressed out. Today she was stressing over spilling tomato soup on her shirt and how she had band-aid residue on her thumb which aggravated her(obviously there was another source for this aggravation of the more feminine variety and other things). She made me go and buy the cinnamon bun for her myself since she couldn't. I gladly did it for her because she is just so worth it. It was so cute. Awww.

But i really just want to say that there are so many warm and wonderful things about INTj's which shouldn't be overlooked.

[Expat]

I just of something that might clarify things further.

Being INTJ myself, I'm terrible at flirting and small talk. I have learned how to fake it, sort of, but I always tend to shift the conversation to matters of more substance - which is precisely what most people don't want. I have been told by female friends, "your talk is too brainy!"

With INTJ women, I start conversations that flow much more easily since they also dislike small talk and are happy to chat without any overt flirting. So I also feel comfortable about asking them out at some point (with or without success).

However, I think you'll get precisely the opposite reaction from most men - the signs they think they're getting from you is that you're happy to talk to them, or perhaps that you're being polite, but not interested in them as men.

[Angel von Himmel]

I can not go for certain women of certain personality types ... some INTj females have caused my superego to kick in causing me to feel fight or flightish.

[James (female INTJ)]

I can not go for certain women of certain personality types ... some INTj females have caused my superego to kick in causing me to feel fight or flightish.

Any chance you could give me a bit more to go on?

[Angel von Himmel]

I can not go for certain women of certain personality types ... some INTj females have caused my superego to kick in causing me to feel fight or flightish.

Any chance you could give me a bit more to go on?

Well, this may just be me ... but, I have been hurt by a lot of people in the past and certain girls of certain personality types cause me to react from my subconscious in a way that does not allow me to function around them; it mostly happens with girls who are Tj or Fj types ...

Just today I met an ENFj girl that did that to me, but there was an ENFj girl I had a relationship with in the past who did not have the same effect on me; it could be something else.

[James (female INTJ)]

But what do the girls do? How do they behave? What are the things they do that set you off?

[Angel von Himmel]

But what do the girls do? How do they behave? What are the things they do that set you off?

Well, I have a real mistrust of girls that seem to be fickle and bounce back and forth from guy to guy and get interested in another guy while they are already seeing one guy. I perfer girls who stick with one guy and avoid other guys long enough to get to know a certain compatibility level, and then stays or leaves.

The reason I say this is because I have never had a steady girlfriend because of this fact. I keep running into girls that can not seem to stick with one guy for very long and my suoerego has learned to try to protect my feelings from them.

I am ENTp and alot of the girls I have seen in the past were ENFj, so I have had alot of benefactor and beneficiary type relationships; this could also explain why I sometimes appear promiscuous and playerish with my ...

But, what I really want is a girl who accepts me for who I am and does not play silly games; untill that time my super-ego will try to protect me and may even kill me unless I can somehow find an ISFp to accept me and calm my superego.

[James (female INTJ)]

Hmmm, none of this sounds like me at all... not sure about other intj women. Everything takes time with me, so I can't be flitting about from crush to crush.

[XcaliburGirl]

But what do the girls do? How do they behave? What are the things they do that set you off?

Well, I have a real mistrust of girls that seem to be fickle and bounce back and forth from guy to guy and get interested in another guy while they are already seeing one guy. I perfer girls who stick with one guy and avoid other guys long enough to get to know a certain compatibility level, and then stays or leaves.

Hmmm, none of this sounds like me at all... not sure about other intj women. Everything takes time with me, so I can't be flitting about from crush to crush.

Not sure whether I'm that way or not, here's the long answer:

Generally, when I fall for someone, I fall HARD. Usually, it's to the exclusion of other guys...EXCEPT that I still do lots of mental comparisons and keep the other "options" in the back of my mind. It sounds so calculating now that I map it out, but don't get me wrong, the strong feelings ARE there, I just use my to rein them in and deal with them. If the guy measures up to my logical standards, then I give myself permission to like him and am very loyal. If he doesn't measure up, a series of internal lectures begins until my feelings give way to my reasoning.

What I'm getting at here is that I will stay with a guy because of the feelings, even though my conviction that he's not right for me is slowly wearing those feelings down. So the termination may seem more abrupt than it really is. Meanwhile, another guy that I've had half an eye on may be stronger in those problematic areas and so an attraction starts growing in the background...next thing I know, I've fallen for him.

So basically, it's not fickleness or flighiness, but a long ponderous process. The problem is that it all takes place inside my head (I'm an INTj, what do you expect), though no outward changes happen until the end.

I'm not sure if this is what you have experienced, rmcnew, but that's how things go with me.

[Kirana]

hi, another INTJ female who can never seem to attract anybody.

i also get frequent comments about how i do not express myself much in facial expression. and yet my close friends, who know me for years, can always read me. either i let a bit more show with them, or they have learned to read the little, slight mannerisms that betray me. more likely both. but, speaking as an INTJ, if i trust someone, all he needs to do is ask me how i'm feeling, and then i can definitely be very expressive. albeit in a somewhat clinical, descriptive way. trust is definitely the most important first step.

maybe most guys just aren't willing to invest so much time building trust. i dunno. maybe they think the reward isn't worth the effort.

the reason why trust is important to me, is that when i fall, i fall hard. the person i love will be endowed with the ability to hurt me.

and maybe guys look for intelligent discussion with other guys, not with their girlfriend. in that case, i so totally do not fit the bill. plus, i really really like my independence, being able to do my thing. this doesn't mean i don't want a relationship. a relationship means that i will always return to the ones that i love, and to me that can be terribly important, more important than most types realise.

and i guess as an INTJ i am poor at recognising what a partner needs, especially one from a very different type. i'm poor at reading social cues, and it would really help if people give my clues or explain directly (and without emotions or pouting) what it is that they would like, so that i would know. maybe that helps explain the bit about how INTJs seem always to take, but offer little. if i but knew what my loved one needs, i would give everything to provide it. but being me, i wouldn't expend too much energy until i figure out what it is.

i suppose my personality makes it a bit difficult too (apart from the fact that i seem to be intimidating to others). i need a relationship to be fascinating. so the guy has to have his own thing that he does, so that i can be interested in him, and learn more and more about him and not get bored. being me, when i am absorbed in something that takes my interest, i get obsessed and if it's a fascinating and fulfilling subject, it will keep my focus for a long, long time. i'm loyal to things close to my heart. and i think i might relationships the same way. being understood is a big plus, but maybe that's too much to ask.

[Cone]

I was becoming quite attracted to this one girl I played with in a chamber music ensemble. It wasn't until I hung around my INTj cousin did I realize that she was an INTj.

[goof]

Wow, what a topic. I was just browsing through and this one stood out.
Just so you all know up front, i'm an INTJ guy. Don't give up on finding a guy out there that want's an INTJ girl. There are guys out there. Even us INTJ guys would date an INTJ girl, you all may be the only females on the planet that understand us :wink: . Just remember you may have to do some asking out as well, especially if it's an INTJ guy. We like girls that show spunk. If a girl likes one of us but doesn't ask us out, we just assume they aren't interested enough. Somehow I have the feeling I'm preaching to the choir, but oh well . Don't be so worried about what may be wrong with you. Just because you may not fit in with someone's standard of normal doesn't mean you are undesirable, it just means you re an individual. Besides what's the fun of being like every one else :wink: . Being unique is what makes us special, and that is nothing to be ashamed of.
Oh, hellenkeller, seeing your post reminded me of something. See if you can recall who said,"I don't want a wicked man. Just someone who could be wicked, but wouldn't." That's just what your post reminded me of.
If there's anything negative about dating an INTJ female, the only thing that comes to mind is that you all don't always express compassion regularly. And that can feel odd, because us guys sometimes wonder, well does that mean they have changed their mind or they don't remember. I don't recall ever being intimidated more than a little by an INTJ girl, but then I guess as an INTJ myself I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Waddles, I am truely sorry for you. It seems like you have no luck, but heh things can change. I've heard perserverance is the key, or something . I am not trying to make fun, but good luck man. Just remember, don't expect an INTJ girl to jump all over you as far as taking the initiative in a relationship, they are no more and no less than equals in a relationship and should be valued as such. Remember, loving a character type means loving all or most of it, not just a part of it. INTJ females can be very accepting, so show them some consideration too. And keep up the sweet stuff, INTJ females are females, so as sure as there is air to breathe they will have a soft spot, which isn't a bad thing :wink: .
Talking brainy isn't a bad point for you ladies. In fact it is very attractive to anyone that values a brain. But just remember that it is important to be adaptable. Brainy talk is good at times, but do you wear a nice silk dress to go to the movies, a bookstore, or to just hang out? Adapt your conversation to your environment. It may not be easy, but you're an INTJ. You're strong.
Oh mcnew, relax man. We go to the same university so I know you. INTJ girls may seem intimidating to some, but remember they're not there to crush your ego and some of the girls that bounced around may just have different definitions of signals than you do. Just remember, ladies are precious. Handle with care. And compassion. How you react to someone is always up to you and noone else.
Anyway, some people would say that an INTJ females weakness is also falliing too hard. And it is to some guys. But remember, if that is part of your personality you shouldn't have to change it for someone else. Change the way you look for companions. There are guys out there, usually the more brainy guys, that like girls that fall hard. For example, my last girlfriend fell hard and was kinda clingy, but I kinda liked it because I knew where they were on the relationship map, for lack of a better term. And no, I'm not a nerd or geek. If the guy is secure with commitment then he shouldn't mind it.
Oh kirana, you sound really down on yourself. Like:

and maybe guys look for intelligent discussion with other guys, not with their girlfriend. in that case, i so totally do not fit the bill. plus, i really really like my independence, being able to do my thing. this doesn't mean i don't want a relationship. a relationship means that i will always return to the ones that i love, and to me that can be terribly important, more important than most types realise.

Relax, You sound like a great person. Intelligent, independent, caring, and creative. If the guys you meet don't like intelligent conversation, then the problem isn't with you, it's with them. How fair is it for you to accept them but for them not to accept you? That is totally unfair. If they don't like intelligent conversation, then perhaps they aren't the type of guy for you. Now this actually goes for all you INTJ ladies. You need someone that will accept you for who you are, love you, and someone who you can like as well. If the guys you meet don't meet those requirements then you either need to keep looking or use different criteria in your search. Because you deserve the best. And it wouldn't be right if you became something you were not just to get someone who doesn't really want the real you. Noone said life was easy, but noone every succeeded without determination.

[XcaliburGirl]

That exactly sums up why I don't like INTjs in relationships, especially when I know that this process is going on. In some ways it's more like a job interview than a relationship. Just wondering, what happens if your logical standards change after a few years. Does love or reason come first?

Hmm...That's a reasonable question. I'm still thinking about it, but I'll give a tentative answer.

If you're talking about fidelity or loyalty, it goes both ways: I can "talk my self into" "love" on principle the same way I talk myself out of it. I love my family and friends despite all their quirks and flaws. And I still care about those guys that didn't "make the grade".

Also, it depends on your definition of love. The feelings I was referring to are that initial infatuation more than anything else. I'm still trying to figure out what love is or should be, so bear with me.

That "job interview" mentality that I do perhaps have is the only thing that saves me from having my heart irreparably broken when my affection is not returned.

I don't want to come across as someone with a shopping list for the perfect man and a ruthless screening process. Hey, if a guy shows an interest in me, I can overlook all sorts of things that I would've previously considered "deal-breakers".
The standards I'm talking about are mostly about character and values, and those standards aren't going to change, even if I decide in a year or so that I like F type guys better than T types or that blue eyes are sexier than brown or that football obsession is cute.

[Waddlesworth]

yeah, im in the screening process now. and when a person is being screened they can feel it. and they can't act themselves either, (those eyes criticising your every action)which is probably why so many guys are completely turned off by intj's. My guess is I'm one of at least two guys that have made it to the finals in her little world. So if i am a "loser" well, i, in some regards, wasted three months of my time on someone that pulled me in(she told me she wanted me), and then spit me out. figures.

this has all proved helpful. maybe i should just trash this girl. the only problem is that i have gone so deeply into it and even wrote her a poem, which she took and said was very wonderful, but got distracted by "so many other things" that she just sort of never "got around" to giving me any response. i can't tell what is happening and she refuses to tell me. just provacative tips and ambiguous responses until she finally makes up her mind. "take him, or leave him? hmmmm"

[Waddlesworth]

yeah, this has been a very difficult problem for me. I mean, I REALLY get along with this girl. When we are together we never stop finding fun things to do. We write stories, draw pictures, talk about anything (i introduced her to socionics). But its just that there is something holding her back. She is stuck in the supervisory relationship, as i have said, and she is leaving it. But now i feel that she feels more free, and that my significance is not as strong as it used to be. I'm more of the guy that is a temporary novelty. It really does a number on your confidence. Here i am, giving giving giving, and i am enjoying it also! And so is she! So what's the holdup? We both admitted how attractive we find one another, so what the hell?!

Eh, whatever. I'll tell her I a give in tonight. Then she'll probably cry and i'll feel bad and think it means she cared, and then the same process will continue. Same crap happened with my old ex. Oh, to be loved.

There are just so many wonderful things about her as well. Its just too bad.

[XcaliburGirl]

You guys are definitely giving me food for thought about how I approach relationships and whether I'm alienating guys with scrutiny. I'm not sure what to do about it though.
How do other types do this love thing anyway?

Waddles W, the whole "other things"/"never got around to it" thing is an excuse I must admit I use when I clam up because... 1. I can't make up my mind, or 2. I am scared to say what it is I want/have to say.

Also, I don't mean to stick my nose into your business, but I figure maybe it'd help if I look at the situation from the point of view of "your" INTj, even though I'm no mindreader, we're two different people, and I don't have all the facts.
Have you spelled out exactly what it is you expect from her? Sometimes we INTjs can be dense when it comes to things like that. Though, if you bring it up, you're right she might start crying because she knows that she's not giving you what you want/need, but she's very conflicted inside about how she feels and therefore can't put the effort into the relationship. That'd make me feel guilty, but powerless to fix it.

[Angel von Himmel]

You guys are definitely giving me food for thought about how I approach relationships and whether I'm alienating guys with scrutiny. I'm not sure what to do about it though.

I think sometimes that feeling types have it easier in the beginning stages of a relationship, whereas thinking types may have it easier when the relationship is established. The problem is establishing a relationship without using a great deal of or , which is something I tend to do.

How do other types do this love thing anyway?

I have learned to accomplish that by using my ...

The problem with that is that once my starts to show more than my [due to the weak functions of an ENTps hidden agenda], it sometimes throw my object of affection off target and makes her wonder if she should still be interested because I am not quite what she first thought [in otherwords, girls like it when I display ].

Of course, I have probably avoided my ISFp dual thinking she/they were disinteresting and would continually target the sexier ENFjs [my hidden agenda opposed to their base functions ], which do utterly nothing for me in the longterm.

Waddles W, the whole "other things"/"never got around to it" thing is an excuse I must admit I use when I clam up because... 1. I can't make up my mind, or 2. I am scared to say what it is I want/have to say.
EDITING...

Stop paying attention to yourself so much, self consciousness and self criticism never helps anyone of any type and breeds insecurity; just stop being afraid of making mistakes and act out naturally, and you will be fine.

[XcaliburGirl]

Stop paying attention to yourself so much, self consciousness and self criticism never helps anyone of any type and breeds insecurity; just stop being afraid of making mistakes and act out naturally, and you will be fine.

Ack! Now I'm going to criticize myself for my self-criticism! :wink:

[XcaliburGirl]

Getting hurt isn't just an INTj thing. You've just got to learn to get over it if it happens. I'm not saying you're like this but the INTj I knew thought that her pain was much worse than everyone elses. It's never nice for anyone if affection isn't returned but it works both ways. If you don't give it you won't get it back.

Oh yeah, I know. I'm just saying that it's my way of dealing with it.

[Creepy-]

You guys are definitely giving me food for thought about how I approach relationships and whether I'm alienating guys with scrutiny. I'm not sure what to do about it though.
How do other types do this love thing anyway?

Waddles W, the whole "other things"/"never got around to it" thing is an excuse I must admit I use when I clam up because... 1. I can't make up my mind, or 2. I am scared to say what it is I want/have to say.

Also, I don't mean to stick my nose into your business, but I figure maybe it'd help if I look at the situation from the point of view of "your" INTj, even though I'm no mindreader, we're two different people, and I don't have all the facts.
Have you spelled out exactly what it is you expect from her? Sometimes we INTjs can be dense when it comes to things like that. Though, if you bring it up, you're right she might start crying because she knows that she's not giving you what you want/need, but she's very conflicted inside about how she feels and therefore can't put the effort into the relationship. That'd make me feel guilty, but powerless to fix it.

Well, first off I am convinced that you understand this situation quite well.

Relationships have many similarities.

Here are the facts:

Welcome to Waddlesworth's personal life. The only reason i write this is because i have din din in the microwave, so i have some time. It will probably be cold when im done.

I have worked with this girl for about a year now. We used to be very distant and mistrustful of one another, and I sort of didn't like her because she had this arrogant and flashy boyfriend that would come in and it just looked so fake to me. I always thought "now there's an odd couple" She was a quiet, insecure, sort of giggly person that liked to arrange things in the proper order, and I was a disorganized clown that drew weird pictures all over the place and talked about strange things, like socionics, or battles, whatever. I assumed she was an IJ, and i eventually started questioning her about herself, to learn more. I began to realize that she was definitely an INTj, and when I figured this out my eyes lit up and I began to socialize with her much more.
She is about 5'5", long brown hair, thin, and has a gorgeous set of eyes. Some fools may call her plain, but that's their blindness, because she is a beautiful girl. She loves the show the "O.C." because the characters' lives are so "perfect". At certain angles i basically look identical to the main character, Ryan Atwood, i think the name is, and also have similar mannerisms. I assume that this had a large part in her taking interest in me.
A month or so after this we both admitted to one another that there was "interest". It was sort of a naive and immature confession that i immediately jumped into. She rode it, she rode my suggestions although they were always filled with provacative, sexually alluring things. She would say "why not just do something bad!?" and she left a tiny little message in my cell phone one day "hello sexy" it read. made me laugh.

We would make comic strips together, just funny little childish things, and I, being naturally a pretty good artist, would encourage her in this area. I would leave little drawings and ideas in her apron as a joke and she would slyly horde them in a box under her bed. Sometimes she would finish the comics, and one time she even wrote a whole story about one of them. So really, in all honesty we are two really good friends with a physical attraction towards one another. I'd say that is still the case.

She has wanted to break it off with her ESTp boyfriend but has been afraid to. This has been ongoing for months now, and im sure that recently it has almost reached an end. But fall is on the horizon and she is going away to school. All of the attraction we have felt is pretty much about to be torn away with the distances and all.
I told to her that a relationship wouldn't work, but brought up the suggestions more. "we can still mess around." and she seemed to fly with it. "but...that would be cheating" she would say, in a manner only stated by those that are open to the notion.
So she and I have been writing a little book together. It is really quite amazing. We have together constructed characters, a plot(an absolutely awesome one!) and i have drawn out maps of cities and structures of future governments and so forth. One chapter she wrote was so sexual that it bordered on pornography. I couldn't help but wonder her intent of this. It is just incredible what two creative minds can do together.
But eventually with her graduation from highschool she has been working insane hours at work, has a distracting social life, and spends most of her time going back and forth all over the place. I tell her to wind down and take control of her own life, but she just can't stand up to her bosses. It actually impresses me how much this girl gets done in a single day. But she is at a different point than me, clearly, and has a much more supportive and loving family. I have my own place, although the distance is a bit far, 40 minute drive each time, and she seems to be annoyed by that.
So, i have asked her for concrete answers and she has only partially given them. "Is there still interest?" "yes" "so, what are we going to do?" "I don't know". Clearly it is just a matter of fear and insecurity and an overly burdened lifestyle. I know it is irrational, and i tell her that, but I am not a bad guy, she knows this, and even if its just a cuddle buddy she is looking for im cool with that. Of course, we all know the answer to this "dumb situation that should just be ended". But it is complicated, I am sure that there are some pretty strong feelings there, because she has often mentioned, cryptically, that there could be something "perfect" in the future, but that she just can't handle a relationship now.

So this answers itself, I am just too infatuated and filled with desire to admit it. It's just a matter of it being a situation that doesn't work. What bothers me is that she seems to want the same thing, or had and occasionally still does give that impression- just someone to mess around with and worry about the relationship later. I don't think she wants it anymore and i suppose i accept it. I just wish she would tell me, because i ask her "yes or no?! just tell me!" and it is always a garbled and childish indecision. perhaps ill tell her im calling it off, the whole desire thing, and maybe i will only then get the answer i have been looking for. KEep in mind though, the emotions are there. But I am too pushy, and we are just at different points in life. I should just go with perceivers if i want a "fling". But i really think i sorta kinda vaguely fell for this girl. and i think the same applies to her for me.

But it was a fun read, wasn't it!?

[Waddlesworth]

that was me

[Kirana]

i can't comment on whether or not my pain is more severe than any other type's pain - it is one of those things that cannot be resolved for certain, since i cannot actually be another type to find out. and it's one of those things that are difficult to experience by proxy.

however, i hope that you might want to consider something integral to most, if not all, INTJs. we hate getting things wrong. hate mistakes, do-overs, trial and error, failing. and while INTJs who have matured healthily ought to learn to take this in stride (because it is impossible to do everything correctly all of the time), the aversion to getting things wrong never quite goes away, PARTICULARLY when the stakes get higher. and if it's something important about which we made a wrong choice, it can get very depressing, and i personally start to obsess over how to fix it or salvage the situation or regain control.

personally for myself, failure (and getting my heart broken is but one of the very worst types of failures) carries a double pain - that of the break-up itself, plus my internal pain for having failed - that could be one reason some INTJs may infer that they experience pain more deeply. again, mature INTJs learn to accept this sort of thing and forgive themselves, but many don't get there yet. i'm not sure if i am there yet.

hm, i have never been pursued myself, and so have no way to know whether if i may not behave in exactly the same way as waddles' gf.... but how long a relationship are we talking here? a year? i hate to say this, but one year is just about comfortable enough to finish thinking about a guy i want to be serious with - provided nothing happened to seriously dissuade me or make me think he's a poor fit. pressure or extenuating circumstances could perhaps force my hand, but then it could swing either way. but, yes, at some point even INTJs should close our eyes and jump - i agree it's not fair to keep others waiting.

[Expat]

personally for myself, failure (and getting my heart broken is but one of the very worst types of failures) carries a double pain - that of the break-up itself, plus my internal pain for having failed - that could be one reason some INTJs may infer that they experience pain more deeply. again, mature INTJs learn to accept this sort of thing and forgive themselves, but many don't get there yet. i'm not sure if i am there yet.
.

Good point, same here. But I'm not sure if we ever actually get there - we just become aware that we have to work at it.