LIIs-INTjs and Ignoring Te extroverted thinking

[FarDraft]

Added back the op for context. My thoughts on my type are different now.

Hello.

Given that Te is the LII's ignoring function, how would it manifest in day-to-day experiences? Moreover, what would be a standard Ti reasoning style vs Te reasoning style as most sources I have come across contradict one another. Some say that Te is all about deduction from facts whereas Ti is deduction from first principles (but first principles are essentially facts, so this makes little sense) and others saying that Te is the facts themselves and there is just a direct connection between fact and conclusion rather than the Ti long-winded reasoning style. Please give concrete examples to prevent misinterpretation. I ask these questions because I think I use extensive Te (I am very pragmatic with my decision-making and am adept at managing money/other business affairs), but it is more likely that I am Ti-base rather than Te-base.

I have also heard from forum members that the DCNH harmonizing subtype can fixate on the ignoring and PoLR functions (Te and Se in the case of LII); however, I have been unable to procure a source to verify that fact. Otherwise, would there be any explanation via subtypes to account for my greater usage of Te compared to other LIIs?

Thank you,

--- FarDraft

[ouronis]

Maybe something like Te reasons from the facts and Ti reasons about the facts? Doesn't seem right though

About Te ignoring, it's there if you can trick yourself into doing it

[para]

@FarDraft
Love your avatar. Is it Kronos eating his children perhaps? Who is the painter?

[Ryan]

I don't think preference (or valued and non-valued) implies skill. That is one of the most common misconceptions. Especially when we are talking about 3 and 4-dimensional functions. They are just as strong. I expect you to be adept at managing money for the most part, even with a 2-dimensional Te. It's the frequency and creativity of your outputs that differentiate between a type and another, among other things. I also don't think there is Te reasoning style vs Ti reasoning style. Each element has its own domain and they often supplement each other, as is the case with Ti and Te. People are unique, functions/elements aren't.

That is my understanding anyway.

(I can't comment on sub-types since I have never really studied them in detail)

[The Reality Denialist]

Well, I wouldn't shoot down ILI as an option. The most extensively aware function is usually creative whereas base more like defines you from outsiders POV.

But yes, ignoring may cause some frustrating "havoc" such as wanting practical use in case of but ultimately finding it hard.

[ouronis]

If you say that Te puts more precedent on the fact itself whereas Ti puts more precedent on the idea, then I guess your first statement is true. But I don't know if that makes sense.

It's not like I'm tricking myself into doing it, though; it's a natural form of reasoning, based on my understanding of what it does. But that's unclear to me, which is why I'm asking here.

You mention decision-making, I guess the concrete equivalent of my answer would be like a clever ti decision would be one that rethinks the question in better terms; a clever te decision would be one that meets the stated facts and still excels.

When I think in these terms, the division is very clear, because I am much more able to see the path to deciding via the ti route than the te route, but if a similar process to the te route results from the "ti" thinking, in a sense, I've tricked myself into a te result. It's rare when starting from scratch and I usually have to borrow other people's thoughts to make it finally show up in the old noggin.

I hate most descriptions of ti and te because they make creative users of those functions very difficult to think about.

[Ryan]

But I can't seem to find a model that allows types to use their ignoring function.

Model A ??

I'm not sure what you are asking, because people use all of their functions, especially when they want to engage in activity that is associated with said function.

Remember this is just as much a sociological theory as it is a psychological one. It explains the interaction between an individual and their society. Most of the non-valued function usage is done in private or among close relations, where it's appreciated and it isn't mentally taxing. But to continue with our previous example: no matter how good I am at managing my own money, I refuse to actively manage other people's money. Especially family. It is not out of the question. But it isn't something I enjoy doing on behalf of others. I may suggest ideas, critic or provide counsel, but that is as far as I will go. That is how I see Te ignoring manifests in me.

That is why I type Buffet and Munger as Ti egos, since they don't provide a public service, despite their record. Of course I may be wrong.

[Rebelondeck]

Both Ti and Te operate on quantified information; however, Te-processes can sometimes feel draining to Ti-types. Te-types like to involve others but totally control the agenda while Ti-types want autonomy or space to think on their own, so successful interaction can be iffy at times. When engaging with many Te-types, I've felt that they were after more than I was able to give and when they'd try coming at me from many directions, I'd automatically circle the wagons. I've often heard feedback to the effect that they thought of me as not a team player. LIIs simply don't rationalize in a Te-configuration but the results can be similar so "ignoring" may be the wrong descriptor unless it refers to wanting to escape the Te-processes......

a.k.a. I/O

[Ryan]

the switch between using one function and another seems far faster than one can comprehend

That is exactly my point. Until some neuroscience research proves it, it's all up in the air.

Honestly, it's obvious to me that you are Ti-lead. But at the same time, I can only speak of my own understanding of the theory, and it isn't perfect.

You pretty much know what the difference is between Te and Ti at this point, you don't need to ask me that. I can't provide you a better answer than what the current Socionics research says. For my own sake, I try to limit the amount of information I accept as true. I can't say that I agree with every bit of info out there, but it's mostly true from what I can tell. But it is not up to me to decide what you should take for granted. My own understanding changes all the time, English isn't my first language and some things escape me. I also can't update you as I go along, I may not be here tomorrow. I think it's best you take it in at your own pace and analyze it.

You can always ask questions, but it's hard to not be misled by others if you don't do your own research, and you seem capable of that. What you shared regarding managing your own family's money doesn't betray my portrayal of Te ignoring btw.

[Desert Financial]

Hello.

Given that Te is the LII's ignoring function, how would it manifest in day-to-day experiences?

With Ti base, impersonal logic prevails with the introverted element, while the extraverted element is completely suppressed.

One's own thinking takes complete priority over external influences. The workings of extraverted logic are diminished, and minimized to the degree that they seem hardly worth discussing under their own terms. Sometimes scoffed at.

I think of Edward Snowden. He views his own principles as completely paramount, practically disregarding the external logic of intelligence agencies.

I also think of this Youtube card collector who launched a campaign against Wizards of the Coast because he thought the business logic was utterly bogus compared to his own ideas and principles.

[WVBRY]

I also think of this Youtube card collector who launched a campaign against Wizards of the Coast because he thought the business logic was utterly bogus compared to his own ideas and principles.

Which one? Jeremy Hambly (the Quartering)?

[Desert Financial]

Which one? Jeremy Hambly (the Quartering)?

Yes. I think he's LII.

[WVBRY]

Yes. I think he's LII.

Interesting, he always struck me as ILI.

However, I don't think this is the proper thread to debate this, though I would be willing to hear your thoughts on the why of typing him LII in the right thread.

[Rebelondeck]

Given that I have experience in public speaking, it's natural for me to adopt a leadership position even when I don't want to. Someone has to do it, and I just happen to be the person who understands what's going on and is capable of speaking loudly and clearly - despite what my video suggests, I should add...........

I've been in leadership roles and have had to regularly speak in national and international forums almost my entire career but there certainly weren't any Te-processes used by me - not even remotely. I'm not a charismatic speaker but I'm effective......

a.k.a. I/O

[Computer Loser]

lii's create models of how the world works and make general claims/rules etc (ti). their focus is internal, not worrying about directly implementing their ideas (te).

to the outsider, because their te is their ignoring function, they're going to come off theoretical and "science-y".

this is in comparison to a more "pragmatic" te type, who are more inclined to work/implement things.

--

in the real world you'll see this manifesting as liis will converse deeply about a few subjects that interest them, going on about how things work, with an emphasis on the theoretical.

[Rebelondeck]

.......What would be Te processes, though? I would assume that the data-driven, empirical nature of Te would make it equally dry to an audience.

Ej-types seem better at engaging with the audience and adapting on the fly; there can be boring Ejs but they have the better tools (potential) for leading a successful public discussion. Ijs can lecture, answer prepared-for questions, and be interesting, but usually cannot be mistaken for a dynamic speaker. The empirical nature of the topic that would make a subject boring is irrelevant.

a.k.a. I/O

[WVBRY]

You have my permission as creator of the thread to debate this on this thread given that I would like to see the process of typing an individual, especially given that ILI and LII seem to be types people frequently cannot resolve.

@A Moderator already made a separate thread for him, if you're interested: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Jeremy-Hambly

[Exodus]

I think you are ILI so maybe this isn't to the point, but anyways...

lii's create models of how the world works and make general claims/rules etc (ti). their focus is internal, not worrying about directly implementing their ideas (te).

to the outsider, because their te is their ignoring function, they're going to come off theoretical and "science-y".

this is in comparison to a more "pragmatic" te type, who are more inclined to work/implement things.

--

in the real world you'll see this manifesting as liis will converse deeply about a few subjects that interest them, going on about how things work, with an emphasis on the theoretical.

Essentially, yes, though there is a bit of Se overlap there.

Another way to put it is that the focus is much more on reorganizing information and systems that are already present, than acquiring new resources/information, unless it's information that is fundamentally "new" in the sense of Ne, in that it changes how you see the world rather than being a new specific variety of something you already know about - like a species of bug, the history of some particular civilization - not that some LIIs won't extract some new principles from those things, but they are more on the Te side.

More concretely, I use Te quite a bit in my job as a computer programmer - looking up resources online and using them to make a program that is of some use to me or someone else. But I found that much of the industry (except for maybe companies with research divisions like Google, Microsoft etc.) isn't really focused on making "interesting" programs - they're basically just a database, some forms on a website, etc. To me that kind of thing gets boring after a while. It's very hard to go outside of that specific mold to something structured more interestingly - you're likely to get complaints from other programmers, and it makes you less replaceable from the POV of management.

It helps if the Te is paired with Si, i.e. the practical work fulfills some immediate need that I or others have. It's very gratifying.

[Bastard]

Given that Te is the LII's ignoring function, how would it manifest in day-to-day experiences?

Faced with a task that requires Te, or trying to help somebody else having a Te-related issue.

[VorticalFlow]

1. How does ignoring Te work in Logical Intuitive Introvert (LII)?

2. What's the experience of it in our consciousness?

3. How is Te using logic when things are not clear cut defined, black of white definitions?

4. How do dynamic information elements work? Appearently, there aren't clear cut boundaries when it comes to dynamic? how is this even possible for dynamic element to also be rational if things are not clear cut? I'm still havving lots of trouble getting a handle on the dynamic elements?

5. Please give plenty of relatable examples for Te and good ways of defining Te. And please do the same of dynamic in general, don't have to go through each function, just please help me understand it if possible.

Thanks!

[FarDraft]

I had similar questions before as well. Here is the thread from when I asked them. I deleted the op, but I'll add it back for context. Here's the link http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...019-LII-and-Te I also deleted my responses, which might complicated things.

[Alomoes]

So, uh yeah, I see it a lot in the good old Turn Based videogames. It involves me not doing the required analysis for proper strategy formulation, instead working of a general understanding of the rules, and I mean **all** the rules, I'll often play ineffectively due to an incomplete analysis of the situation.

That summarizes generally everything wrong with my academics. I read through quickly, and then realized I didn't answer the right question, or that who I thought was Bob was Alice. Obvious solution is to read multiple times or slower, but no. Don't got time for that. Still, my reading comp is really good when I do get everything perfectly, which is almost an event that requires the stars to align.

Also, I've determined that if I care about something, I'll ignore all of the stuff like "oh yeah, doesn't care about personal history to determine effectiveness of action" which would be Ni + Te. That's completely bogus, to me. I do that heavilly. I very commonly try to use previous action to predict what is going to happen, as generally people are pretty consistent. Like my brother tends to nag on things that matter, but are pretty over the top. And when he does, he nags about everything at once. And yesterday, he confirmed this. Surprise, he didn't change over the course of a year of no contact in that regards.

Like, for example, I can predict Trump isn't going to sign onto the Green New Deal. Surprise, aren't you shocked?

I hope that helps. If it's not type related, then I'll eat my hat. If it didn't help, figures. I half expect it to not help, as that is a simple explanation that I didn't like.