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Thread: The Ant and The Grasshopper - Alpha vs Gamma philosophy? Conflict theme?

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    Smile The Ant and The Grasshopper - Alpha vs Gamma philosophy? Conflict theme?

    Have you heard of the tale of the Ant and Grasshopper? What do you think of the relationship between Socionics Quadras/Themes and archetypical themes such as tales? It seems to have caused a lot of moral debate troughout history. Who do you think was right in the story and what is your type?


    "A Grasshopper gay
    Sang the summer away,
    And found herself poor
    By the winter's first roar.
    Of meat or of bread,
    Not a morsel she had!
    So a begging she went,
    To her neighbour the ant,
    For the loan of some wheat,
    Which would serve her to eat,
    Till the season came round.
    "I will pay you," she saith,
    "On an animal's faith,
    Double weight in the pound
    Ere the harvest be bound."
    The ant is a friend
    (And here she might mend)
    Little given to lend.
    "How spent you the summer?"
    Quoth she, looking shame
    At the borrowing dame.
    "Night and day to each comer
    I sang, if you please."
    "You sang! I'm at ease;
    For 'tis plain at a glance,
    Now, ma'am, you must dance."



    Human depiction of the tale by Gustav Doré. Notice the woman in the door is knitting (as the ant) and the woman standing before her is with a guitar.

    Ant and Grasshopper - Alpha vs Delta Hipothesis.jpg

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    Metaphysician thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by June Webb View Post
    Have you heard of the tale of the Ant and Grasshopper? What do you think of the relationship between Socionics Quadras/Themes and archetypical themes such as tales? It seems to have caused a lot of moral debate troughout history. Who do you think was right in the story and what is your type?


    "A Grasshopper gay
    Sang the summer away,
    And found herself poor
    By the winter's first roar.
    Of meat or of bread,
    Not a morsel she had!
    So a begging she went,
    To her neighbour the ant,
    For the loan of some wheat,
    Which would serve her to eat,
    Till the season came round.
    "I will pay you," she saith,
    "On an animal's faith,
    Double weight in the pound
    Ere the harvest be bound."
    The ant is a friend
    (And here she might mend)
    Little given to lend.
    "How spent you the summer?"
    Quoth she, looking shame
    At the borrowing dame.
    "Night and day to each comer
    I sang, if you please."
    "You sang! I'm at ease;
    For 'tis plain at a glance,
    Now, ma'am, you must dance."



    Human depiction of the tale by Gustav Doré. Notice the woman in the door is knitting (as the ant) and the woman standing before her is with a guitar.

    Ant and Grasshopper - Alpha vs Delta Hipothesis.jpg
    Good example. It's about SiFe vs NiTe, from the perspective of NiTe. It's pretty hard to argue that the SiFe side is right in this particular case.
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    It would be funnier if the ant gave the food but charged the naïve grasshopper interest.

    I wouldn't necessarily say it's alpha vs gamma, though. LIIs do tend to plan for the future - not as sure about ILEs, though. Likewise, gamma SFs are more present-minded than their NT counterparts, spending excessively in the present, needing to be guided by their duals to plan for the future. I agree with thehotelambush. Probably alpha SF philosophy vs gamma NT.

    I might edit this post to give a take on the moral aspects but I'd have to think about it some more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Good example. It's about SiFe vs NiTe, from the perspective of NiTe. It's pretty hard to argue that the SiFe side is right in this particular case.
    Yes! That's exactly what I tought. ENTj vs ISFp interaction. I believe the ant was right too. But I guess some other people would see it as a lack of sympathy. I'm actually being at the moment grasshopper cause I should be studying for exams
    Last edited by June Webb; 03-08-2019 at 04:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    It would be funnier if the ant gave the food but charged the naïve grasshopper interest.

    I wouldn't necessarily say it's alpha vs gamma, though. LIIs do tend to plan for the future - not as sure about ILEs, though. Likewise, gamma SFs are more present-minded than their NT counterparts, spending excessively in the present, needing to be guided by their duals to plan for the future. I agree with thehotelambush. Probably alpha SF philosophy vs gamma NT.


    I might edit this post to give a take on the moral aspects but I'd have to think about it some more.
    LIIs, hmm, the one I think is one is kinda paranoid with future planning. Would you say that is relatable to the type? Perhaps an ESI/ISFj would give a chance or not to the SEI/ISFp by character reading for the LIE or Idk. I don't have much experience with Gamma SFs, but it makes sense that they'd be impulsive. I don't think we should see this tale with social justice perspective, though. I'm new to this Socionics thing.
    Last edited by June Webb; 03-08-2019 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by June Webb View Post
    The ILE I know alternates between a compulsive buyer and a penny pincher after repenting on spending so much. LIIs, hmm, the one I think is one is kinda paranoid with future planning. Would you say that is relatable to the type? Perhaps an ESI/ISFj would give a chance or not to the SEI/ISFp by character reading for the LIE or Idk. I don't have much experience with Gamma SFs, but it makes sense that they'd be impulsive. I don't think we should see this tale with social justice perspective, though.
    LII likes precision, accuracy, order; he is meticulous and discriminating in his reasoning. Finds pleasure in creating simple schematics, organizing everything "by the shelves", thinking and planning ahead.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ion-(Filatova)

    Given that LIIs are strong in Ti and Ni and tend to have a penchant for rationalization, planning for the future seems like a common thing. However, it's a different form of planning than gamma NTs. LIIs don't care about personal finances as much as gamma NTs given that they unvalue Te (and ignore it, on top of that).
    He is not likely to keep especially careful track of his finances, avoiding this by keeping his needs simple and constant.
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t..._LII_composite
    LIIs may instead have generalized goals with no specific timeframe in mind (unvalued Ni). That being said, they're generally responsible individuals who have a strong sense of duty. While that may not lead to the philosophy of "me against the world" like it does so often with gamma types, it would mean that they don't "sing away the summer".

    I'm not sure where I suggested we should look at this through a social justice perspective. I just want to look at the moral quandaries presented.
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    It seems that the grasshopper spent all the winter enjoying herself singing while the ant was working her ass out. To me it seems a sense of Te responsability + perhaps with Ni from the ant's part, because the ant envisions a future where resources might be needed vs. a careless or irresponsable attitude of the grasshopper, being an ENTj/LIE. The fallback of the ant on helping the grasshopper could perhaps show off lack of Si and weak Fi, because she wasn't personally related to her neither could "sense" her hunger. While the lack of vision and disposition to do something "productive" of the grasshopper could perhaps demonstrate lack of Te and Ni. Sidepicking apart, this is a very ancient tale and I think it gives a lot to debate. I think it shows a lesson from super-ego from the part of the grasshopper. I'm not saying that SEIs don't work, though. Perhaps the grasshopper could have success if she had found an audience, an idea perhaps an ILE would provide?

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    "He is not likely to keep especially careful track of his finances, avoiding this by keeping his needs simple and constant.""'I'm not sure where I suggested we should look at this through a social justice perspective."
    Sorry, @FarDraft I deleted my post (and a part of the one you replied) because I tought it could be misunderstood. I didn't actually imply you meant that, if it sounded as it were, it's perhaps because I'm not a native english speaker so forgive me if I sound unreasonable sometimes.

    Hmm... this is a very good description. Would you say that an LII could have "getting rich" as a goal? The person I referred would like to.

    "LIIs may instead have generalized goals with no specific timeframe in mind (unvalued Ni)."

    How would you say IEIs are in this question, do they plan forward or simply "irrationally" envision a future?



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    Quote Originally Posted by June Webb View Post
    "He is not likely to keep especially careful track of his finances, avoiding this by keeping his needs simple and constant.""'I'm not sure where I suggested we should look at this through a social justice perspective."
    Sorry, @FarDraft I deleted my post (and a part of the one you replied) because I tought it could be misunderstood. I didn't actually imply you meant that, if it sounded as it were, it's perhaps because I'm not a native english speaker so forgive me if I sound unreasonable sometimes.


    Don't worry about it. Your english is fine.

    Hmm... this is a very good description. Would you say that an LII could have "getting rich" as a goal? The person I referred would like to.

    I wasn't able to find any quotes from notable socionists relating to LII and monetary profit, but my own opinion is that, in general, LIIs would not be interested in such things. This is because they unvalue Te and Se, meaning that the practical aspects of life are subdued, with greater capital placed on others. Many of the LIIs (and alphas in general) I've spoken to say they would very gladly live a life where they are able to pursue their hobbies/passions while making enough to live reasonably comfortably. In model G, LIIs want their theories and ideas to be "profitable" in that they have practical application, but they care less about actually making money off their ideas/inventions.

    All that being said, individual differences do exist and what we do in life is largely influenced by our culture and upbringing. For example, people with parents who are doctors might be encouraged to become a doctor and so, regardless of type, there is a higher chance of this person becoming a doctor. To accurately type someone, you have to understand the underlying motivations behind why they want what they want so as to discern the structure of their thought process, which is essentially the functions they use (and probably value) most. Of course, some people have so many behavioural indications of being one type over another, but these people tend to be rare.

    "LIIs may instead have generalized goals with no specific timeframe in mind (unvalued Ni)."

    How would you say IEIs are in this question, do they plan forward or simply "irrationally" envision a future?


    My understanding of most types is relatively limited given that I've the last year or so of my time trying to determine whether I'm an LII or ILI. At the surface level, I would expect IEIs to be more irrational with respect to the future since they unvalue Te i.e. they don't care about practical affairs enough to look for profitable opportunities. They are also positivists, which means that they look for things that could be rather than things that are missing. Since they are already so attuned with dreams, this positivism can "trance" them into a world of their own, completely disconnected from reality.

    Here are some quotes that may be of interest/use:
    In contrast to ILI, the IEI is focused on ethics, and therefore he is less concerned with the problems of the material world and production; his interests lie in the development of people's emotions, relations, and potential...
    A dreamer and romantic, the IEI is easily separated from reality and taken by his thoughts into the land of images and insights, from which he derives enjoyment and meaning of his existence...
    He finds it difficult to enact the necessary measures himself – pragmatic activity is not his strongest suit – therefore he tries to orient others around him to take action...
    IEIs do not invest a lot of effort into managing their finances. He may overspend or save money without knowing what to do with it. Often IEI cannot resist purchasing beautiful and elegant things that do not have any utilitarian purposes, even if his finances do not suffice; it is difficult for him to concern with something as prosaic as money, when it is desirable to amuse himself by any means possible.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/31-INFp-description-Filatova


    The IEI is not inclined to save up money and keep strict track of his finances. May spend substantial sums on aesthetically pleasing, from his point of view, items that aren't always useful. If he falls into financial difficulties, he knows whom to turn to for help or finds something that he can sell. In long-term relations does not forget to take into account pragmatic considerations. Poorly related to those who force him to work at an unusual and uncomfortable for him pace and rhythm. Hopes for leniency, indulgences, "smoke breaks" at work...
    But with this he also can take up and finish commercial and business projects fairly well. Flexible and resourceful, this helps him to keep his position for a long time. Not a bad manager or leader, due to fact that he can usually pick reliable associates...
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ile-by-Gulenko
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-09-2019 at 05:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by June Webb View Post
    "He is not likely to keep especially careful track of his finances, avoiding this by keeping his needs simple and constant.""'I'm not sure where I suggested we should look at this through a social justice perspective."
    Sorry, @FarDraft I deleted my post (and a part of the one you replied) because I tought it could be misunderstood. I didn't actually imply you meant that, if it sounded as it were, it's perhaps because I'm not a native english speaker so forgive me if I sound unreasonable sometimes.

    Hmm... this is a very good description. Would you say that an LII could have "getting rich" as a goal? The person I referred would like to.

    "LIIs may instead have generalized goals with no specific timeframe in mind (unvalued Ni)."

    How would you say IEIs are in this question, do they plan forward or simply "irrationally" envision a future?


    I know you addressed this to someone else but I will give my thoughts on it anyway. I believe Ni leads are capable of subconsciously being opportunistic. Not so much conscious planning going on when younger but being able to choose the right path/opportunity at the right time as they filter out the less probable paths to succeeding. It doesn't have to be financial specifically. It could be anything. I am not saying this in the diabolical sense although that can be true too.

    I have seen it written that IEI are a "lucky" type. Rather than luck I think it is subconscious skill. At some point, as they start to mature, the skills they have will be noticed by them and then consciously manipulated (again not in a bad sense) to their advantage. This manipulation is in the forum of Fe for IEI and Te for ILI. The subconscious Se for both also comes into play. I am not sure how it would work for an LII.

    This is what came to me while reading your last sentence so take with a grain of salt. I have always considered myself a charmed, lucky or fated person. Things tend to go my way. It is not easy to let go of that idea...

    For many years I didn't think too much about my own abilities in this area. Giving credit to something beyond me. If anything socionics has given me a different framework to think about all this. This luck didn't just fall in my lap. I can see that in hindsight. Even as a child I was making choices that would get me where I wanted to be. I had a vision, yes, but not a solid one. This is really hard to explain. Anyway I do think it is possible for an LII or any type to have of goal of getting rich. Their motivations for getting rich would be more telling than the goal itself.

    Oops I forgot. Welcome June.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post

    "All that being said, individual differences do exist and what we do in life is largely influenced by our culture and upbringing. For example, people with parents who are doctors might be encouraged to become a doctor and so, regardless of type, there is a higher chance of this person becoming a doctor."
    Hello again, Fardraft... Yes I agree there's a whole variable thing that might implicate on how the type would present itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post

    "To accurately type someone, you have to understand the underlying motivations behind why they want what they want so as to discern the structure of their thought process, which is essentially the functions they use (and probably value) most. Of course, some people have so many behavioural indications of being one type over another, but these people tend to be rare."

    Well, the way I see this is that type seems to be blatant obvious in some people, as in you can look and see it in five minutes because they fit right in to that stereotype or type description, like an ILI friend I have. I think Quadra values could perhaps be good. But as I said previously I'm new to this. There seems to be a lot of gray areas...


    In the case of this supposedly LII friend I have, see if you can help me out, Far... he seems somewhat critical of the people he knows and has some kind of intimacy because they don't follow his ideas or his standards. Not really an intellectual guy but tries to appear-like, has single minded ideas about how the world works, etc. But has a lot of difficulty on being assertive with people he doesn't know, in simple things such as denying a beggar some money because he might look possibly threatening (even though not obviously threatening) it seems like he can only use Se in the realms he knows well, like having a discussion in the family, trying to make himself listened. He seems ambicious, like want to get money but in my POV he just wanted to have better quality of life and spend time on videogames, sweets or other self-entertaining/creative work. If he were to be an LII, we would have to assume that he is an unknowledgeable one, assuming that he only has the logical structure without being beyond average smart. Perhaps I'm wrong about his type, but all the people he admires are alpha and his personal tastes also. I used to say he liked silly things and watching videogames and cartoons were spending time, my doubt is that he seems eager to get money, but as I said I guess he seems simply as a means to an end: a luxurious life, I could be biased though. Unlike the ILI friend I have, wich he says is too serious and uncongenial, he kind of understands or at least has some conscious of how the dynamics of a social atmosphere might work, even though not knowing how to contribute to it. While as my certain ILI friend talks about topics wich can cause some distress (not as an LIE) without paying attention to the current topics people are "vibing" on, such as talking about politics or a book he was reading with me without paying attention to the other topic people seemed more excited towards wich was south park or whatever.


    What are your doubts on your type?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post

    "My understanding of most types is relatively limited given that I've the last year or so of my time trying to determine whether I'm an LII or ILI."
    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post

    "At the surface level, I would expect IEIs to be more irrational with respect to the future since they unvalue Te i.e. they don't care about practical affairs enough to look for profitable opportunities. They are also positivists, which means that they look for things that could be rather than things that are missing. Since they are already so attuned with dreams, this positivism can "trance" them into a world of their own, completely disconnected from reality."
    What are your doubts on your type? Perhaps I could help it sort it out. I consider myself an IEI and I can identify with what you are saying. What is exactly being a Positivist? I'm mostly pessimistic, is that a score against IEI?


    This is some very good literature you posted. Some points I have that I think don't match with IEI is: I don't see myself as a person with strong Fe, because I'm not a gregarious person, I can be like that some times but is very situational and I have to make an effort. Te thing I think it matches perfectly. I'm mostly helpless on daily, procedural, monetary affairs.
    Last edited by June Webb; 03-09-2019 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Improvement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I have seen it written that IEI are a "lucky" type. Rather than luck I think it is subconscious skill. At some point, as they start to mature, the skills they have will be noticed by them and then consciously manipulated (again not in a bad sense) to their advantage. This manipulation is in the forum of Fe for IEI and Te for ILI. The subconscious Se for both also comes into play. I am not sure how it would work for an LII.

    This is what came to me while reading your last sentence so take with a grain of salt. I have always considered myself a charmed, lucky or fated person. Things tend to go my way. It is not easy to let go of that idea...

    For many years I didn't think too much about my own abilities in this area. Giving credit to something beyond me. If anything socionics has given me a different framework to think about all this. This luck didn't just fall in my lap. I can see that in hindsight. Even as a child I was making choices that would get me where I wanted to be. I had a vision, yes, but not a solid one. This is really hard to explain. Anyway I do think it is possible for an LII or any type to have of goal of getting rich. Their motivations for getting rich would be more telling than the goal itself.
    Hello Aylin, thank you for welcoming me... hope we have some good exchange. What you said about Ni being lucky reminded me a quote I used to identify a lot with from Match Point, this Woody Allen film that says: "The man who said 'I'd rather be lucky than good, saw deeply into life". Could you describe situations were you felt this luck or this mental sense pointing you the way? Do you think that perhaps some IEIs become neurotic for not following their hunches? I think there can be a lot of pressure on IEIs in a society were frenzied profit and production are mandatory.

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    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RmntLpxDw
    This is song that retakes the ant and the grasshoper.
    Et il suffit d'chanter pour passer l'temps et de croire que tout peut arriver. (Only need to sing to pass time and believe that all can happen.)The grasshoper and the ant used to sing together, dreaming of being on stage, but the ant gave up to be responsible and get ready for winter, the grasshoper then got a career as a singer.
    I like this one better, because the one who followed her dream made it, while the one who gave it up for safety ends up sad. "J'aurais tant voulu chanter pour passer l'temps, p'être juste t'accompagner en duo comme dans l'temps, au lieu d'ça je suis prisonnier d'la prison que j'me suis bâtie." (I would have wanted to sing to pass the time, maybe just accompany you as duo like before, instead I am prisoner of this prison I built for myself.)

    This is a song a french teacher I had in third grade made us listen to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by June Webb View Post
    Hello Aylin, thank you for welcoming me... hope we have some good exchange. What you said about Ni being lucky reminded me a quote I used to identify a lot with from Match Point, this Woody Allen film that says: "The man who said 'I'd rather be lucky than good, saw deeply into life". Could you describe situations were you felt this luck or this mental sense pointing you the way? Do you think that perhaps some IEIs become neurotic for not following their hunches? I think there can be a lot of pressure on IEIs in a society were frenzied profit and production are mandatory.
    Woody Allen also was in the film Antz, which had ants and grasshoppers but in much different roles. Odd synchronicity there.

    Anyways, what I should have clarified before is that the grasshopper is in the wrong for not providing for himself. But is the ant wrong for not giving him something? Giving is better, but the other choice is justifiable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I know you addressed this to someone else but I will give my thoughts on it anyway. I believe Ni leads are capable of subconsciously being opportunistic. Not so much conscious planning going on when younger but being able to choose the right path/opportunity at the right time as they filter out the less probable paths to succeeding. It doesn't have to be financial specifically. It could be anything. I am not saying this in the diabolical sense although that can be true too.

    I have seen it written that IEI are a "lucky" type. Rather than luck I think it is subconscious skill. At some point, as they start to mature, the skills they have will be noticed by them and then consciously manipulated (again not in a bad sense) to their advantage. This manipulation is in the forum of Fe for IEI and Te for ILI. The subconscious Se for both also comes into play. I am not sure how it would work for an LII.

    This is what came to me while reading your last sentence so take with a grain of salt. I have always considered myself a charmed, lucky or fated person. Things tend to go my way. It is not easy to let go of that idea...

    For many years I didn't think too much about my own abilities in this area. Giving credit to something beyond me. If anything socionics has given me a different framework to think about all this. This luck didn't just fall in my lap. I can see that in hindsight. Even as a child I was making choices that would get me where I wanted to be. I had a vision, yes, but not a solid one. This is really hard to explain. Anyway I do think it is possible for an LII or any type to have of goal of getting rich. Their motivations for getting rich would be more telling than the goal itself.

    Oops I forgot. Welcome June.
    opportunism sounds more EP temperament

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    Quote Originally Posted by June Webb View Post
    Hello Aylin, thank you for welcoming me... hope we have some good exchange. What you said about Ni being lucky reminded me a quote I used to identify a lot with from Match Point, this Woody Allen film that says: "The man who said 'I'd rather be lucky than good, saw deeply into life". Could you describe situations were you felt this luck or this mental sense pointing you the way? Do you think that perhaps some IEIs become neurotic for not following their hunches? I think there can be a lot of pressure on IEIs in a society were frenzied profit and production are mandatory.
    When I think back on it I fall back on supernatural explanations. I think it is because some of the things I have felt lucky about were basically things that defy logic so when I try to think of one specific situation as an example right now it escapes me.

    I am still waking up though so once I had more coffee I will come back to this. There are mundane examples, lots of them, I need to think about it. I wrote to you in a stream of thought yesterday since your sentence sparked it.

    Edit: I will share things in pm since it is too easy to take my words and twist them on this forum.

    Edit 2: This is what Gulenko says of VS cognition but I believe Filatova may have said specifically that IEI are lucky too. If not her then it was Strat.

    Vortical-Synergetic Cognition

    The fourth cognitive style: it is synthetic, positive, and inductive. Its most appropriate title is Vortical-Synergetic. This form flows in Sociotypes ESE, SLI, LIE, IEI (ESFj, ISTp, ENTj, INFp, respectively)

    Synergetics—the science of how order emerges from chaos. The word 'synergy' in Ancient Greek means "concerted action". The concept of synergy continues to be discussed at present. In the West, it is called 'Chaos Theory' or 'Nonlinear Dynamics' [9]. For our purposes, it is important to note that it is characterized by so-called dissipative states—non-equilibrium, nonlinear, unstable.

    As Dynamics, Synergetics think fluidly with tints of one thought cascading into another. As Positivists, they converge towards a point of attraction. As Involutionary types, they frequently turn backwards and jump over previous levels, displacing the flow of their thoughts like a vortex or fluctuating storm.

    IEI as if in a kaleidoscope sees whimsical iridescent imagery, dissolving then receding in flux. LIE thinks very experimentally with many variants rapidly assorted and mentally tested on the fly for practical applicability. ESE initiates a social torrent leaving behind a trail of emotional turbulence. Thoughts 'swarm' and chaotically displace one another. SLI 'lies in a drift' as it were awaiting favorable wind. Once the situation becomes favorable, self-organization immediately takes hold and rapid thinking initiates, scrolling through incoming information, identifying options most and least likely to succeed.

    Intellectual Sphere

    Characteristic of a 'vortex' is its self-organizing nature, moving like a whirlwind. This manifests mentally as a rapid search for options, tests, and the subsequent screening of variants which do not yield results. It operates on basis of testing, advancing to the goal through trial and error. In a sense, it is comparable to a perpetual lab experiment in the brain.

    The first advantage of Vortical cognition—liveliness and naturalness. It seems to simulate the actual processes occurring in nature. Another advantage—faith in success and luck. Synergetics do not confuse temporary setbacks with error; they will undertake attempt after attempt until success ultimately comes to them.

    Its chief disadvantage is that the intellectual search is often blind and uneconomical. Another difficulty is its randomness and spontaneity. Synergetic intellect is a kind of chain reaction that catalyzes itself. The mechanism of positive feedback operates: if not curbed, then the concentration of effort first leads to an explosion, followed by dissipation.

    Synergetic intellect explains phenomena through substantive reasoning. The very substance (material or substrate) itself generating phenomena through natural movement. In the Aristotle example, the cause of sculpture is the block of marble from which it was made.


    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko
    This is not beginner socionics so if you are new to it, it may be more confusing than helpful.
    Last edited by Aylen; 03-10-2019 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    opportunism sounds more EP temperament
    Ok, Mr literal. I am not talking about this:

    "Opportunism is the conscious policy and practice of taking selfish advantage of circumstances.[1]"

    "Human opportunism should not be confused with "seeking opportunities" as such, or "making use of opportunities when they arise". Opportunism refers rather to a specific way of responding to opportunities, which involves the element of self-interestedness plus disregard for relevant (ethical) principles, or for intended or previously agreed goals, or for the shared concerns of a group.[3]"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunism

    I think you know that though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Ok, Mr literal. I am not talking about this:

    "Opportunism is the conscious policy and practice of taking selfish advantage of circumstances.[1]"

    "Human opportunism should not be confused with "seeking opportunities" as such, or "making use of opportunities when they arise". Opportunism refers rather to a specific way of responding to opportunities, which involves the element of self-interestedness plus disregard for relevant (ethical) principles, or for intended or previously agreed goals, or for the shared concerns of a group.[3]"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunism

    I think you know that though.
    right so an ethical type wouldnt be oppurtunistic then

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Ok, Mr literal. I am not talking about this:

    "Opportunism is the conscious policy and practice of taking selfish advantage of circumstances.[1]"

    "Human opportunism should not be confused with "seeking opportunities" as such, or "making use of opportunities when they arise". Opportunism refers rather to a specific way of responding to opportunities, which involves the element of self-interestedness plus disregard for relevant (ethical) principles, or for intended or previously agreed goals, or for the shared concerns of a group.[3]"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunism

    I think you know that though.
    wait youre not talking about opportunism but youre using the word opportunism? thats stupid

    oh and inb4 im too smart to use the proper words for the meanings i convey, because really we all know its your lack of a broad vocabulary that creates this problem, nothing else

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    wait youre not talking about opportunism but youre using the word opportunism? thats stupid

    oh and inb4 im too smart to use the proper words for the meanings i convey, because really we all know its your lack of a broad vocabulary that creates this problem, nothing else
    lol

    fuck off.

    If I used the wrong term forgive me.

    I believe Ni leads are capable of subconsciously being opportunistic. Not so much conscious planning going on when younger but being able to choose the right path/opportunity at the right time as they filter out the less probable paths to succeeding.
    Last edited by Aylen; 03-12-2019 at 06:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Woody Allen also was in the film Antz, which had ants and grasshoppers but in much different roles. Odd synchronicity there.
    lol I love those synchronicities... I remember watching it as a kid a bunch of times and loving it. But I didn't remember anything so I got curious found this scene... it seems like an LII - ESE type of interaction... what do you think?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcoFo8fQ54E

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post

    Anyways, what I should have clarified before is that the grasshopper is in the wrong for not providing for himself. But is the ant wrong for not giving him something? Giving is better, but the other choice is justifiable.
    Yes, I'd also say it's justifiable. What makes us different than other animals is that we can foresee a future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by June Webb View Post
    Hello again, Fardraft... Yes I agree there's a whole variable thing that might implicate on how the type would present itself.

    Well, the way I see this is that type seems to be blatant obvious in some people, as in you can look and see it in five minutes because they fit right in to that stereotype or type description, like an ILI friend I have. I think Quadra values could perhaps be good. But as I said previously I'm new to this. There seems to be a lot of gray areas...
    I generally agree with this. Type can be quite obvious in some but not in others. Sometimes, certain attributes of one type fit but so do attributes of another. It then becomes difficult to discern which attributes are more important than others, so falling back on principles, exemplars, or experience can help. My take on quadra values is that they serve as a way to better understand society as a whole and how people generally interact, but it's not the best at typing individuals unless one's values are obviously fitting into one quadra. Too generalized to determine precise motivations, cognitive styles, or behaviours. For example, a more academic ILI may not seem as gamma as, say, an LIE businessman. The gamma values will probably be there, but they will be a lot more understated. Similar with LII and alpha.

    In the case of this supposedly LII friend I have, see if you can help me out, Far... he seems somewhat critical of the people he knows and has some kind of intimacy because they don't follow his ideas or his standards. Not really an intellectual guy but tries to appear-like, has single minded ideas about how the world works, etc. But has a lot of difficulty on being assertive with people he doesn't know, in simple things such as denying a beggar some money because he might look possibly threatening (even though not obviously threatening) it seems like he can only use Se in the realms he knows well, like having a discussion in the family, trying to make himself listened. He seems ambicious, like want to get money but in my POV he just wanted to have better quality of life and spend time on videogames, sweets or other self-entertaining/creative work. If he were to be an LII, we would have to assume that he is an unknowledgeable one, assuming that he only has the logical structure without being beyond average smart. Perhaps I'm wrong about his type, but all the people he admires are alpha and his personal tastes also. I used to say he liked silly things and watching videogames and cartoons were spending time, my doubt is that he seems eager to get money, but as I said I guess he seems simply as a means to an end: a luxurious life, I could be biased though. Unlike the ILI friend I have, wich he says is too serious and uncongenial, he kind of understands or at least has some conscious of how the dynamics of a social atmosphere might work, even though not knowing how to contribute to it. While as my certain ILI friend talks about topics wich can cause some distress (not as an LIE) without paying attention to the current topics people are "vibing" on, such as talking about politics or a book he was reading with me without paying attention to the other topic people seemed more excited towards wich was south park or whatever.
    I'll see if I can help. I might need some more information, though.

    "he seems somewhat critical of the people he knows and has some kind of intimacy because they don't follow his ideas or his standards." (Just a tip, I don't think intimacy is the best word for this context). I don't find that this is really true of INTx's in general. Most of them don't care about how other people do things. They're too detached and aloof, for the most part, unless you're in their inner circle. In fact, LIIs might be the most independent type, so that's something to consider. LSIs are usually more vocal about other people not doing things "correctly". While some LII profiles paint the type as more revolutionary, most in real life are just opinionated rather than vocal.

    "Not really an intellectual guy but tries to appear-like, has single minded ideas about how the world works, etc." What do you mean by intellectual? Does he not know a lot or does he just make a lot of judgments of too little information? Does he try to be "deeper" than he actually is?

    " But has a lot of difficulty on being assertive with people he doesn't know, in simple things such as denying a beggar some money because he might look possibly threatening (even though not obviously threatening) it seems like he can only use Se in the realms he knows well, like having a discussion in the family, trying to make himself listened." Weak Se, like you say. For LII it is difficult to talk in a commanding tone. Imperious intonations are not characteristic of him. Although, if he loses his temper and flares up, he may say unduly sharp and harsh things.

    However, similar things are said about ILI. For example, Although making demands is precisely what is difficult for the INTp. He is a kind of person for whom it is difficult "to pull his will into his fist". The ILI doesn't know how to and doesn't like to subordinate someone else to his will. So it's not conclusive to LII.

    "He seems ambicious, like want to get money but in my POV he just wanted to have better quality of life and spend time on videogames, sweets or other self-entertaining/creative work." Seems SiNe valuing if this is true. However, In this description of the ILI-Ni, Meged and Ovcharov write something similar "Often lacks in determination and confidence in himself. In his soul he is an idealist who envisions a beautiful, harmonious, and prosperous life, but is quite passive in finding the means to achieve it." Does this fit him?

    Have you considered some Te type for him? I'm honestly getting the feel that he's an SLI for some reason, maybe a type 6 disintegrated into a type 3 who is trying to act more intellectual than he is due to this unhealth. Te ego types can often be arrogant in this way, and I'm not really getting the feeling that he's NT (though this is completely subjective). I've noticed some parallels between what you've written and common LII/ILI descriptions, but I don't think it's really enough to conclude INTx.

    What are your doubts on your type? Perhaps I could help it sort it out. I consider myself an IEI and I can identify with what you are saying. What is exactly being a Positivist? I'm mostly pessimistic, is that a score against IEI?
    My doubts are that I can see lots of similarities between myself and both LII and ILI descriptions. While I can't relate to the rigidity of an LII, I can relate to their analytical thinking and drive to create new ideas both for theory and application. However, I'm also very critical of ideas unless I've thought them through, which is more ILI than LII. While most of what is written about ILI makes sense, I can't completely relate to Si role. It fits better when I was younger. Nowadays, I care less, though I do love to cook and eat good food. Also, Sol's IR test, despite my critiquing it (I'm not fully convinced of my critique), strongly suggests I'm LII, but I refrain from making judgments on IR until I can actually meet people in real life. I also fudged that test since I didn't spend nearly enough time or focus on each of the videos. I might redo it later on. I think a more logical and rational INTp makes the most sense since I see that I used a lot more Ni than Ti in my younger age, but LII is still an open possibility.

    Positivism an optimism shouldn't be conflated. While they can be linked (SEEs and LIEs, for example, are very optimistic), they are two fundamentally different ideas. At its core, positivism is about noticing what else could be included (not in an Ne way) whereas negativism is what could be missing. Optimism is about being hopeful and confident of success in future endeavours whereas pessimism is the presumption that the worst will occur in the future. You can read more about positivism vs. negativism here http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...and-Negativism

    I don't think being pessimistic and being IEI are at all mutually exclusive. In fact, given the highly emotive nature of the IEI, I would expect nothing less than periods of dramatic pessimism and exuberant optimism. Beta is naturally more prone to dwelling in negative emotion, anyway.

    This is some very good literature you posted. Some points I have that I think don't match with IEI is: I don't see myself as a person with strong Fe, because I'm not a gregarious person, I can be like that some times but is very situational and I have to make an effort. Te thing I think it matches perfectly. I'm mostly helpless on daily, procedural, monetary affairs.
    Cool.
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    @FarDraft I would argue that ILI are more pessimistic than IEI. EIE can be more pessimistic than IEI. Subtypes of ILI and SLE both need more optimistic partners to deal with their own pessimism (paraphrasing Gulenko).

    EIE

    His boundless interest in people contributes to him expanding his social circle. In connection to this, may spend a lot of time interacting with people who will later disappoint him. When he is in a good mood, he is amiable, lively, gives compliments, admires abilities of others, is the soul of the company and readily helps people in solving their problems. In a bad mood, he is pensive, gloomy, pessimistic, and seeks solitude. Distrustful by nature, skeptical, critical of the actions of others. Appreciates words, but prefers concrete evidence of feelings and practical services.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-ISTj-EIE-ENFj

    I don't think being pessimistic and being IEI are at all mutually exclusive. In fact, given the highly emotive nature of the IEI, I would expect nothing less than periods of dramatic pessimism and exuberant optimism. Beta is naturally more prone to dwelling in negative emotion, anyway.
    Have you met another Gamma?

    It isn't mutually exclusive but if someone has prolonged periods of pessimism I would wonder if they are depressed.

    General pessimistic thinking would be more pronounced in ILI and EIE than IEI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    @FarDraft I would argue that ILI are more pessimistic than IEI. EIE can be more pessimistic than IEI. Subtypes of ILI and SLE both need more optimistic partners to deal with their own pessimism (paraphrasing Gulenko).
    I'd agree that ILI are generally more pessimistic than IEI. Most of the sources indicate that as well. It's just that IEI, being irrational and dynamic and having strong Fe- (beta), would lead to quite a bit of emotional fluctuation/mood swings, meaning that periods of pessimism shouldn't be unexpected. However, overall, the subtype profiles paint them as optimistic.

    Have you met another Gamma?
    This is just speculation based on my impression of beta and gamma, but it seems like gamma is more prone to hate whereas beta is more prone to sadness. While negative emotion encompasses all of that, expression of that emotion is more Fe than Fi. "Dwelling" has to do with expression (e.g. writing, singing, etc.), which is why I think beta is more prone to dwelling in negative emotion than gamma.

    It isn't mutually exclusive but if someone has prolonged periods of pessimism I would wonder if they are depressed.
    I never specified the length of the periods (not that you explicitly accused me of doing so). For IEIs, these periods should be more like swings (at least for Fe subtype), as indicated in the subtype profiles you used. Internally contradictory, prone to abrupt mood swings: from laughter to tears and in reverse.



    General pessimistic thinking would be more pronounced in ILI and EIE than IEI.
    True. I think that that could be because they both have strong Ni and are negativists since not all negativists are so critical/pessimistic about future endeavours. I remember Gulenko writing about how LIIs quickly forget about past failures (in his standard description) and tend to have a more optimistic outlook (in his model G diagram). I'll see if I can find the source.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I'd agree that ILI are generally more pessimistic than IEI. Most of the sources indicate that as well. It's just that IEI, being irrational and dynamic and having strong Fe- (beta), would lead to quite a bit of emotional fluctuation/mood swings, meaning that periods of pessimism shouldn't be unexpected. However, overall, the subtype profiles paint them as optimistic.

    This is just speculation based on my impression of beta and gamma, but it seems like gamma is more prone to hate whereas beta is more prone to sadness. While negative emotion encompasses all of that, expression of that emotion is more Fe than Fi. "Dwelling" has to do with expression (e.g. writing, singing, etc.), which is why I think beta is more prone to dwelling in negative emotion than gamma.

    I never specified the length of the periods (not that you explicitly accused me of doing so). For IEIs, these periods should be more like swings (at least for Fe subtype), as indicated in the subtype profiles you used. Internally contradictory, prone to abrupt mood swings: from laughter to tears and in reverse.

    True. I think that that could be because they both have strong Ni and are negativists since not all negativists are so critical/pessimistic about future endeavours. I remember Gulenko writing about how LIIs quickly forget about past failures (in his standard description) and tend to have a more optimistic outlook (in his model G diagram). I'll see if I can find the source.
    Thanks for clarifying. I keep looking for those diagrams and never seem to find them when I want them. I should probably bookmark things more. If you can find it that would be cool.

    I have lived with ILI for more than half of my life. I remember well the hate an ILI-Ni sub had toward others although he could be polite and quiet in social situations if he was unfamiliar with people. Some people thought he was rude or thought himself above the group. If someone left a strong negative impression on him he did not let that go. He had a hit list of people to kill if he were given short time to live. I took it about half serious. Sometimes I wondered though. I don't think he had it in him but just the fact he had one at all says a lot. It was not something he dwelled on for ages. It would be stored away and only remembered if he saw the person again.

    The ILI-Te would lean toward being very rational when it came to this stuff. Not socionics rationality just plain rational and practical (I guess?). He was not one to contemplate things for hours like the Ni sub. At least not visibly but he had kids to deal with. He was more outspoken around strangers and would give his opinion even around new people. He debated my mom's priest on their religion once. lol He was not an atheist but he was agnostic. In a way he could be the friendlier one (life experience perhaps) but also the one to tell you faster if he thought you were being illogical or you could not provide proof.

    Both of them could be negative and when they were angry (not frequent but most common visible emotion.) it eventually would leave me shaking inside. Maybe the worst part is I had to repress Fe (in a playful way when they were mad and in general) in order to get along with both better. The cool thing is I had never heard of socionics before so I figured out what worked with them on my own. Sometimes I would fall back on Fi ways to make them stop stressing others out when they were angry. Keep in mind these weren't casual relationships. Both leaned toward skepticism (toward theories and philosophies they didn't agree with) and pessimism (toward humanity, I think). It was even more pronounced in the Ni sub when he was depressed (which he wouldn't admit to because I don't think he even knew).

    I am aware this is mostly describing behaviors. :/

    I don't think "sadness" is an inherently negative emotion. It can be beautiful. It is how we grieve and remember our losses. Hate on the other hand is pretty much a negative emotion no matter how it is justified. Do you agree with that at all?

    I had this article open from a couple days ago. In socionics rational is J and irrational is P.

    “I conceive reason as an attitude whose principle it is to conform thought, feeling, and action to objective values. Objective values are established by the everyday experience of external facts on the one hand, and of inner, psychological facts on the other. Such experiences, however, could not represent objective “values” if they were valued as such by the subject, for that would already amount to an act of reason. The rational attitude which permits us to declare objective values as valid at all is not the work of the individual subject, but the product of human history.”

    He went on to explain that reason is “…nothing other than the expression of man’s adaptability to average occurrences, which have gradually become deposited in firmly established complexes of ideas that constitute our objective values. Thus the laws of reason are the laws that designate and govern the average…“

    Jung defined irrational “not as denoting something contrary to reason, but something beyond reason, something therefore, not grounded on reason. Elementary facts come into this category; the fact, for example that the earth has a moon, that chlorine is an element, that water reaches its greatest density at four degrees centigrade, etc… The irrational is an existential factor which, though it may be pushed further and further out of sight by an increasingly elaborate rational explanation, finally makes the explanation so complicated that it passes our powers of comprehension…

    “A completely rational explanation of an object that actually exists (not one that is merely posited) is a Utopian ideal. Only an object that is posited can be completely explained on rational grounds, since it does not contain anything beyond what has been posited by rational thinking. Empirical science, too, posits objects that are confined within rational bounds, because by deliberately excluding the accidental it does not consider the actual object as a whole, but only that part of it which has been singled out for rational observation.”

    So far, the range of experience falling under the category of irrational and accidental includes all elementary facts of existence, known or not: given properties of the world and how we perceive them. It also includes all objects to the extent they’re unique and individual, as well as all chance events occurring in the relations between individual “objects.” It includes the unconscious psyche, which by definition is unknown and so unlimited. Aspects of these irrational factors have been “singled out for rational observation” as Jung noted; yet they remain, in fact and basis, irrational.

    Excerpt from: Jung’s Definitions of Rational and Irrational
    I think that blog post is relevant to this thread somehow. Theoretically speaking, I can see how ILI are P (irrationals) even with the rational subtype. The descriptive characteristics by Reinin seem off to me though. Especially if there is a such thing as subtype or DCNH. Now I can close that window.

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    Quadra Values is simply a mythology and one in which Stackemup Typology (Socionics side) formerly Socionics New Wave thoroughly disproved.

    https://www.pinterest.com/socionics/

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    Quadra values is a hypothesis within the larger theory of socionics. They have not been disproved by you slapping some pics on pinterest and assigning an acronym of what your subjective interpretations of a type looks like.

    Having said that I am not completely on board with quadra values since they don't take into account ethnic groups, upbringing, spiritual beliefs, etc...
    Last edited by Aylen; 03-15-2019 at 01:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Thanks for clarifying. I keep looking for those diagrams and never seem to find them when I want them. I should probably bookmark things more. If you can find it that would be cool.
    Here's the thread that Ben Vaserlan started containing most of the model G diagrams. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...VICTOR-GULENKO

    I have lived with ILI for more than half of my life. I remember well the hate an ILI-Ni sub had toward others although he could be polite and quiet in social situations if he was unfamiliar with people. Some people thought he was rude or thought himself above the group. If someone left a strong negative impression on him he did not let that go. He had a hit list of people to kill if he were given short time to live. I took it about half serious. Sometimes I wondered though. I don't think he had it in him but just the fact he had one at all says a lot. It was not something he dwelled on for ages. It would be stored away and only remembered if he saw the person again.

    The ILI-Te would lean toward being very rational when it came to this stuff. Not socionics rationality just plain rational and practical (I guess?). He was not one to contemplate things for hours like the Ni sub. At least not visibly but he had kids to deal with. He was more outspoken around strangers and would give his opinion even around new people. He debated my mom's priest on their religion once. lol He was not an atheist but he was agnostic. In a way he could be the friendlier one (life experience perhaps) but also the one to tell you faster if he thought you were being illogical or you could not provide proof.

    Both of them could be negative and when they were angry (not frequent but most common visible emotion.) it eventually would leave me shaking inside. Maybe the worst part is I had to repress Fe (in a playful way when they were mad and in general) in order to get along with both better. The cool thing is I had never heard of socionics before so I figured out what worked with them on my own. Sometimes I would fall back on Fi ways to make them stop stressing others out when they were angry. Keep in mind these weren't casual relationships. Both leaned toward skepticism (toward theories and philosophies they didn't agree with) and pessimism (toward humanity, I think). It was even more pronounced in the Ni sub when he was depressed (which he wouldn't admit to because I don't think he even knew).

    I am aware this is mostly describing behaviors. :/
    While I agree with you at the high level, it seems like that Ni sub ILI had some health problems, though it does depend on the age. If he was like this in older age, then he'd probably been miserable. That's not an intrinsic trait of any personality type, no matter how negativist. I think it's possible to reach a level of satisfaction despite one's proclivity to see the down side in anything - it comes down to not giving a shit. When I was younger, people I would now type as ILI-Ni were definitely more vengeful than I was. Their heightened emotionality and ability to see the negative in anything made it hard for them to put aside their petulance. Even now, I tend to brush most things off or make a joke about it, though I never forget my encounters with people. I'm judgmental and critical, but it's an inward thing, and it's rarely emotionally bound - more like noticing how useless these people would be in different circumstances. I'm generally indifferent to how other's live their lives since it is of no concern to me. It only matters if that person is close to me, and even then it depends on the person. Some people have a better handle on their lives than others, and making that distinction is important. Remembering those encounters is more a means of self-preservation, so I can "know who's untrustworthy".

    The one thing I find most hypocritical about the ILI nature is that they hate passion with a passion. It's impossible to beat on a wall with a hammer without using force, yet the ILI's predilection for skepticism and criticism tries to do so without spreading the dent. It's focused yet broad. The criticisms are detailed, yet you can see a hidden agenda. It's not the topic but the person they hate, and that requires passion. They're often taking sides, not even realizing it, attempting to speak in a nuanced matter which clouds the issue. To see things clearly means to recognize your own assumptions and to establish a hierarchy of information. It's about deriving reasonable abstractions through an understanding of the details. These are supposed to be an ILIs strengths, and it often is. However, sometimes, the lack of logic in an ILI can be profound and devastating. It can allow them to generate depth but at a cost of the common sense they should be naturally strong at. It's hypocritical, yet many immature ones don't notice. Perhaps I'm one of them, outside this conversation at least.

    Control over emotions is most important to me, not a complete denial of them. I have no desire to express my emotions, but I too have no desire to assume they don't exist since I'd only be fooling myself. It's silly to deny your own humanity.


    I don't think "sadness" is an inherently negative emotion. It can be beautiful. It is how we grieve and remember our losses. Hate on the other hand is pretty much a negative emotion no matter how it is justified. Do you agree with that at all?
    I don't really like the categorizations of emotions as positive or negative, though I use it out of simplicity. There are times for any and all emotions, both for a personal and utilitarian reason. You highlighted the benefit of sadness since it's intrinsically linked to empathy, but it's also linked to envy, in that failure to see one's own potential creates a longing to be someone else. 4s face this a lot. Hatred, I think, can be useful. It's an internal, visceral response to physical or nonphysical impugning information. To act on such responses would be, in general, foolish since it, by definition, requires you to abstract away the specifics of the stimulus. However, it serves to protect - a self-preservatory response that prevents you from being manipulated in a cruel world. It serves as a carnal form of common sense, in a way. However, it can blind one from seeing the reality of things, as I talked about before. That leads to irredeemable actions on the part of ignorant or stupid individuals, which we'd rather not have.



    I had this article open from a couple days ago. In socionics rational is J and irrational is P.

    I think that blog post is relevant to this thread somehow. Theoretically speaking, I can see how ILI are P (irrationals) even with the rational subtype. The descriptive characteristics by Reinin seem off to me though. Especially if there is a such thing as subtype or DCNH. Now I can close that window.
    He seems to suggest that rationality is the means to put into conscious perception whereas irrationality is the opposite. Irrationality has no desire to frame but rather to just perceive. An ILIs base means of viewing the world is just that - perception. Specifically, perception of processes over time and associating imagery to those processes. Subtypes serve to differentiate the focuses by which the ILI makes sense of that perception. While it doesn't change the functions or how they're used, it changes the emphasis placed on some functions over others but only in service of the program. I think this model makes the most sense.
    Last edited by FarDraft; 03-17-2019 at 12:50 AM. Reason: Fixed quote
    ----- FarDraft, 2019 | 5w6 538 sp/sx

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