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    Default Trapped By a Caregiver

    Help.

    I am trapped by caregiving.

    At first, it looks like conscientiousness, courtesy: "here let me grab the bag for you" Me inside my head "I can grab my own fucking bag, so no thanks." Me in reality ookaaay" Looks perplexed, but is just trying to hide annoyance.

    Now, its all the time for everything and its driving me off the flipping wall.

    What do I do?

    Do I say something about it? Hard thing to do, when saying something would hurt their feelings....

    I hate this situation, I hate this Den Daddy stuff.

    Seriously, please help!

    I am actually not joking..I'm not liking this situation at all. I got divorced with a similar person before. Caregiving gone way overboard into the work place.

    Me, eats banana, puts peel down by my side on the centre vehicle counsel. Them, grabs my used banana peel, and places on the floor in the centre. Uumm, wtf. Was that really necessary?! Me grabs it and throws out window when on highway. Not enjoying the constant "space control". And this isn't in a Se way, this is Te-Si space control.

    Side note: caregivers create codependencies. Fight me on this.

    I am ligit asking for advice. There is a storm brewing and I want to minimize the fall out. :/
    Last edited by Finaplex; 03-02-2019 at 10:36 AM.

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    squark's Avatar
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    Stop being infantile.



    People are drawn to take care of the helpless and fragile. Don't be that way, and you'll have less problems with people treating you that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Stop being infantile.



    People are drawn to take care of the helpless and fragile. Don't be that way, and you'll have less problems with people treating you that way.
    I only have a problem with one person treating me this way. The rest of the guys don't. I have to also share a room with said person so I'm constantly put into a place where its a negative defending situation, where in I did not ask for, nor solicit help, nor appear to need it nor want it, and they offer it anyway. I haven't released any infantile signals, and also, I'm not one in socionics. Its a cross reference situation.

    I did tell him to stop being so considerate, but he also smokes pot all day and pot makes people feminine and introspective and slow on the draw to react. To much intuitive and impressionable.

    Also, hehe on the passive aggressive jab stemming from our past interactions.

    People who are familiar with these sociotypes will know what it is I'm talking about.

    You are right though, I can't keep allowing this to go on this way, which is why I originally said a storm and a course correction is brewing. I'm just looking for ways to minimize the damage without needing to be an asshole in his eyes. Maybe there is no other way. It is also a hiarchial situation where he is the semi-boss and I need his advice for specific job related things, but then the rest of life outside the job, I'd rather he just fuck off and leave me to my own devices. It's an all-encompassing caregiving thing and its super annoying.
    Last edited by Finaplex; 03-02-2019 at 02:28 PM.

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Maybe you can trade roommates with someone else. Distance does wonders for relationship harmony.

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    How can I put it simply..?:

    If you refuse their help that you did not want in the first place, you offend them and hurt their feelings.

    You are put into a place where you need to continually defer their help that you didn't want in the first place and by doing so you are degrading the relationship further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Maybe you can trade roommates with someone else. Distance does wonders for relationship harmony.
    I wish I could Adam, I was thinking about that. But the way this whole thing is set up its just not a possibility. So I'm stuck in this right now. Its all a head game I have to keep telling myself that. Just be nice. Just be nice. Just be nice. Just be nice. Just listen to him Just listen to him. Just listen to him. Don't get your back up. Don't get your back up. Don't get your back up. Just accept it. Just accept it. It's not forever. It's not forever. ..........

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    I wish I could Adam, I was thinking about that. But the way this whole thing is set up its just not a possibility. So I'm stuck in this right now. Its all a head game I have to keep telling myself that. Just be nice. Just be nice. Just be nice. Just be nice. Just listen to him Just listen to him. Just listen to him. Don't get your back up. Don't get your back up. Don't get your back up. Just accept it. Just accept it. It's not forever. It's not forever. ..........
    Sounds a lot like my interactions with LSE's.

    So you can have that job or you can have peace of mind. Tough choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Sounds a lot like my interactions with LSE's.

    So you can have that job or you can have peace of mind. Tough choice.
    I’ll be fine when it comes to peace of mind. I will say Im glad I’m not 22 anymore, I can handle myself in most things. Like I said, its not forever and there is nothing wrong with him, or me. Its just the way it is for now. I will just stand firm in little ways and hope he lightens up and redirects. Bold moves, which I would like to do, would be disastrous with this guy.

    There is no choice, this is the right place to be right now. I just got stuck with a little hiccup is all.

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    One thing I just learned: do NOT pressure him about time lines.

    Sitting around waiting for everything to be perfect with his truck before we can leave.....

    zzzzzzzzzzzz

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    ---> "just relax, settle down, take a load off, we will just wait for the truck to warm up and then we will go"

    ...2 hours later....



    its all a head game, its all a head game, its all a head game.

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    Fuck now we need to get coffee before we go on this mini trip to another town to get my saw repaired when we already 3 hours behind Im going to gouge my eyes out wasting time on Si.

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    There is no way in hell he is alpha. ST only possible here and because of the setting. Can’t be SLE. LSI is a remote possibility. Im thinking LSE/SLI/LSI hybrid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    LSIs are not caregiving at all.

    I honestly don't know LSE or SLI who acts like a "casual" caregiver. I know 3 LSEs and none of them act such way, not even when in love. They tend much more to take responsibilities or duties especially work or bring money to home than something else. Also in taking leadership or responsibility on team work, etc.

    Then if you want SLI doing something for you, you usually would need to vocalize it. (I've seen this several times).

    I know Alpha SFs who are too caregiving, like taking care forcibly of others also also urging others to be as diligently caring/selfless as they are with X person.
    Also ExI who are kinda caregiving towards ppl (like doing a lot of unrequested stuff), but its more due Fi, being like all cute and nice.

    Te is not likely to give something for free. LSE/SLI rarely give services/goods without any kind of benefit or at least, duty. The other way is more alpha ime. Over the time the incompatibilities between caregiving/victim styles arise. So, I've seen ESEs getting tired of taking care of IEIs and similar.

    Then, if you don't take care of your own duties (such as throw your away your garbage) you'll have some overly diligent type doing it for you. I personally don't take away the garbage of other ppl unless those in direct line of responsibility such as parents/husband and not constantly. No exceptions. LSE, ESE (j) are very diligent in this way such as having to clean whats dirty etc.




    I'd say you should consider SEI.
    Not possible. Its a LSE. This work place and the kinds of dutiful occurrences are Te help. I'm not in question about his type. I am in question about how to tell him off without actually telling him off. I don't need all encompassing Te help and especially not in connection to Si.

    I also know alphas who are over the top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    so your roomate is your conflictor?

    Maybe he's confusing you by his dual then.

    Just start being diligent over your own stuff and do it before he has to do it for you (My IEI friend 9 was like this his mom was Se ex guerrilla btw, he was very well trained by a military woman). OR start depending so much on him that you become an annoying burden. Also use Ni and Fe so to make him uncomfortable and not likely to act in caring way. He has been acting diligent now, but if you keep not wanting to take care of your own stuff and also "controlling" space due not cleaning etc, then there's this chance that he's not just not going to stop controlling the space but start to quarrel with you about this. I've seen IEI also entering in conflict with Deltas in this way. Eventually one of the two would just leave.
    I don't think he is my conflictor.

    -I am already very diligent over my own stuff, which is why what he does annoys me. I am the same way in a sense. When the combo can jerry cans get filled every morning, I am always the one doing it first for myself. I turn around some mornings and he is doing it for me..like oh, you are already doing it, um gee thanks for doing it even though I didn't ask, nor appreciate, but erm okay. And then when I try to hide this attitude he reads into the hesitation, because he likes the pot, and he misreads me as being somehow disagreeable in a vague subconscious sense, but its not for the reasons he thinks, like I'm a defective infantile, its that he is taking on my own work when I DID NOT ASK for him to help me, and I actually get a little pissed off if I don't seek it out to receive it. Its supremely distracting because then I am constantly having to defer, or agree, and neither feels authentic. Basically I wish he would just focus on his own stuff. Every time I turn around he's just automatically helping out. Like, I put my boots on the room fan heater, but then took them off thinking I didn't want to be gone and they catch on fire, I will just wait to come back that night and do it, but then I turn around and he's got his boot drying device and just unprompted doing it, and I'm like, dude, I don't need it done right now and I'm not super keen on having your boot dryer in my boots. But then, I look like the asshole because I'm the one turning down perfectly good help when I wasn't claiming to need it in the first place. Deltas really do run off hints and vague innuendo, don't they?

    -I could never depend on him so much, that would be a sham and so far out from where I am in life right now.

    -I am very clean, which is also why what he does is annoying. I make my bed in the mornings if you want to have an idea of how I am, I also do my own dishes at night.

    - I do not like being cared for. I went through a couple serious relationships and break downs of such relationships, to the point I was arrested for punching my ex truck, over similar issues. I'm fine in this instance, I'm driven by the money and higher aspirations. Its not me who has the problem here, its him over assuming his dutiful role and being a Den Daddy. This isn't like * hate the one you like thing either*, this is a ligit breakdown of socionics here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    so you don't self type as IEI anymore? or you dont think he's lse?
    I don't type anything right now..I'm focused on career and reality to the point I can sublimate my natural inclinations and focus on real world things. I have been this way for the past 6 years ish. Nobody is coming to help, nor do I want them to. I have to do it on my own, or nothing. Maybe you can understand this drive.

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    It sounds like you need to communicate this. Don't torture yourself to make someone else feel good. If you want to be subtle about it just physically prevent him from doing these kinds of things. Like grab the bag before he can. If he doesn't get the message just say "excuse me, I can do that, thanks." If you do this enough times he will back off. Yes he may find it off-putting but who cares? Again it's not worth torturing yourself over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It sounds like you need to communicate this. Don't torture yourself to make someone else feel good. If you want to be subtle about it just physically prevent him from doing these kinds of things. Like grab the bag before he can. If he doesn't get the message just say "excuse me, I can do that, thanks." If you do this enough times he will back off. Yes he may find it off-putting but who cares? Again it's not worth torturing yourself over.
    Yup this

    sigh. Will do but not looking forward esp since the situation forces is together 24/7. Well not always 24/7, but you catch my drift.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    ... trapped by caregiving.. "here let me grab the bag for you"

    ..I'm not liking this situation at all. I got divorced with a similar person before...

    ...And this isn't in a Se way, this is Te-Si space control...

    Side note: caregivers create codependencies. Fight me on this.
    Hmm, I don't know if they create dependencies but they can definitely play into them.

    I can see how if you were in a bad relationship and divorced from someone that did too much for you and/or controlled your space, and this was played out in his caretaker tendencies, than anyone acting out in even a normal caretaker way might be a serious trigger for you. So it seems like you would have to keep in mind that you had this traumatic experience, and that it can color your judgment. Someone who really cares about you can be helped to understand you, and if they really care about you, they will then take care to adjust their behaviors accordingly.

    [Not long after the demise of my difficult marriage, I was at a basketball game with other parents of players. Among them was one couple in particular, whom I knew from other functions. I saw them interacting noticeably nicely and kindly and respectfully of each other, which was quite unlike how it had been for me in my marriage. And instead of thinking, "Well that's nice", this very clear, dark thought came to me: "Oh, poor her! He's nice to her now, here in front of other people, but I bet when he is alone with her he is cruel to her." As soon as I thought it, I knew it was an unfounded judgment based on my own traumatic experience, not an any reality or evidence in front of me. I knew cruelty-free marriages existed - like the marriage of my own parents, for example! But I was still in the aftershock of my own experience, and it colored my judgment. So I am saying maybe your judgment is off a bit. And you are allowed that!]

    If the person you are now spending time with now is a normal person who cares, he will respond well to your telling him what behaviors bothers you, and why. You can explain to him how some caretaking behaviors are suffocating to you and give him some examples of things he has done and how you felt. Acknowledge that he was just trying to be helpful (or might have been - whatever you think), and tell him you appreciate his good intent, but the effects of it are not his intent. Tell him how your ex acted, so he can understand the connection. Then give him a few tries to learn because they may be automatic behaviors to him. When he repeats one you can gently point out what he did, and say, 'remember?...". His reaction "Oh! So sorry I forgot!" or "Gee you sure are picky!" will tell you a lot about him. You will learn how willing he is to adjust, which will tell you if he is a person who genuinely cares for you. Because you should be able to discern if he is doing it on purpose, and he is then of course you should run. Because another possibility is that something about you might draw this kind of dysfunctional controlling person to you. (But the good thing is, now you know what to look out for).
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Hmm, I don't know if they create dependencies but they can definitely play into them.


    I can see how if you were in a bad relationship and divorced from someone that did too much for you and/or controlled your space, and this was played out in his caretaker tendencies, than anyone acting out in even a normal caretaker way might be a serious trigger for you.
    Yes, this is true. I also ended up living with another caretaker type who would be happy to literally cut my steak for me. Another traumatic situation because I put myself there, but it was the last time and it was a few years ago and I thought I had laid to bed that stuff and would never, ever again in a million years fall victim to this sort of thing ever in a million years.


    So it seems like you would have to keep in mind that you had this traumatic experience, and that it can color your judgment. Someone who really cares about you can be helped to understand you, and if they really care about you, they will then take care to adjust their behaviors accordingly.

    [Not long after the demise of my difficult marriage, I was at a basketball game with other parents of players. Among them was one couple in particular, whom I knew from other functions. I saw them interacting noticeably nicely and kindly and respectfully of each other, which was quite unlike how it had been for me in my marriage. And instead of thinking, "Well that's nice", this very clear, dark thought came to me: "Oh, poor her! He's nice to her now, here in front of other people, but I bet when he is alone with her he is cruel to her." As soon as I thought it, I knew it was an unfounded judgment based on my own traumatic experience, not an any reality or evidence in front of me. I knew cruelty-free marriages existed - like the marriage of my own parents, for example! But I was still in the aftershock of my own experience, and it colored my judgment. So I am saying maybe your judgment is off a bit. And you are allowed that!]
    This is very insightful, thank you for sharing and it makes sense to me. I have my own challenges in the same way.

    If the person you are now spending time with now is a normal person who cares, he will respond well to your telling him what behaviors bothers you, and why. You can explain to him how some caretaking behaviors are suffocating to you and give him some examples of things he has done and how you felt. Acknowledge that he was just trying to be helpful (or might have been - whatever you think), and tell him you appreciate his good intent, but the effects of it are not his intent. Tell him how your ex acted, so he can understand the connection. Then give him a few tries to learn because they may be automatic behaviors to him. When he repeats one you can gently point out what he did, and say, 'remember?...". His reaction "Oh! So sorry I forgot!" or "Gee you sure are picky!" will tell you a lot about him. You will learn how willing he is to adjust, which will tell you if he is a person who genuinely cares for you. Because you should be able to discern if he is doing it on purpose, and he is then of course you should run.
    It is a work situation and not something I went looking for. I landed in it and my hands are tied, for lack of a better term. I'm pretty certain this is not the place to talk about feelings. Feelings are not for this setting, so it would have to be a more direct approach without any mutual feeling analysis. Also, not a safe time and place to reveal to much as it could undermine my position in unforeseen ways. Just trust my judgement on that. Everything you said though I do agree with and think this to myself as well. This is a man's world and men don't do this and if they do I'm not one of them with a person I just met not long ago and rely on for work place guidance and team work. This would take trust and trust takes time.

    Because another possibility is that something about you might draw this kind of dysfunctional controlling person to you. (But the good thing is, now you know what to look out for).
    I don't see this specific person as dysfunctional, actually I see him as highly functional, just misguided and because I have to be so submissive to him specifically because of the precariousness of the situation and my role in where I am here, I can't just be bossy. I'm not typically a push over, he just brings it out in me I guess.

    You are right about being aware of that stuff. I am actually somewhat rejecting of these types of guys and girls. I seem to attract them and then resent them.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @Finaplex, Oh, i didn't see it was a work situation. Yes, you do have to behave/speak differently there, and yes, as a woman in an environment that plays out "the man's world" strongly, you do have to hold back some thoughts that would seem too feminine or personal. I will pray for you to have wisdom in this situation! It is a tricky one!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
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    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Finaplex, Oh, i didn't see it was a work situation. Yes, you do have to behave/speak differently there, and yes, as a woman in an environment that plays out "the man's world" strongly, you do have to hold back some thoughts that would seem too feminine or personal. I will pray for you to have wisdom in this situation! It is a tricky one!
    Yup.

    This is why i mentioned the pot, because this person I'm talking about is very masculine otherwise, but as is typical of the energy of marijuana, it makes one very kind and understanding and intuitive and helpful and giving and nurturing...all of which rub me the wrong way as I see it as a form of socionics and its a form of dependency creation that I do not want to participate in. Marijuana makes you thin skinned to the subconscious reality and also more reflective to how people are and need...and this circumvents what I need right now. I need hardness right now in order to feel confident, not to feel taken care of, which just plays on my insecurities and occupies to much of my mental energy, thus why I said its a distraction to the logic of action of what I am doing for work. This isn't the place and time for that sort of thing, this is the time for something different for me personally. Getting something in this world. Going up. Make sense maybe?

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    Metaphysician thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Also - in all honesty this person sounds ESE. It's ESEs with Fi ignoring that sometimes have trouble respecting personal boundaries with their "helping".
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    I have no idea what type your friend is. However, this situation might not be type-related. If we take the situation as them doing you a favor by driving you somewhere, they might be extracting their pay for this service by passive-aggressive delaying, so you will hesitate to ask them for a favor again. They are the driver, so now they are in control of the situation.

    I haven't seen LSE's do this kind of thing. My LSE mother would do a slow burn when my SLI father would drag his feet when she wanted to go somewhere.

    Also, my LSI ex-GF once wanted to go to a museum that was an hour away. We made plans, I said that the museum opens on Sunday at 9AM and closes at 4PM, we should leave at about 9 (I knew she liked to sleep in), get there at 10, and we'd have six hours to view the artworks.
    Well, she wasn't ready to go at 9, she had to make a few phone calls, then she had to iron her clothes, then she had to clean her living room, and when we finally got out the door at 1:45PM (!), she decided that she had to have this certain kind of coffee, so we stopped at every gas station between her place and the museum until she finally found something acceptable. We arrived at the museum at 3:30PM, just a few minutes before they closed. She was in control of the entire day, but like you, I just let it go. It was what it was.

    *EDIT*
    It occurred to me that this could also be an Se power situation. You want to show who's in charge of space by leaving your banana peel on the armrest, and your roommate wants to show you that he's in charge of the space in the car when he's driving. And he hits you where he, himself is most vulnerable, which is in your sense of Time (Ni).*

    Which is a good example of why, in the smallest details, Se types are better paired with Ni types than with other Se types. (And vice-versa.)

    *So often, people try to hit others in the areas in which they, themselves, are most vulnerable. This is a very poor offensive strategy, because it just bounces off some people.
    An example of this is Trump calling people he wants to belittle "losers", when he, himself, has been doing nothing but losing since Day One. If he goes up against an intuitive type, he's going to be in real trouble.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-03-2019 at 03:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    Side note: caregivers create codependencies.
    the need and use in a cooperation creates codependencies
    types differ by regions where they consciously more seek for a cooperation. it's valued regions. by strong they want to care about others, in weak want to be cared

    if you do not like a cooperation and relations, then mb your valued regions are other then at the opponent
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Also - in all honesty this person sounds ESE. It's ESEs with Fi ignoring that sometimes have trouble respecting personal boundaries with their "helping".
    Yes I understand what you are saying and yes I have seen this tendency with ESEs. No, the person in mind is clearly, without a doubt not a ESE. There is no Fe. Although he is expressive, he is as dry as a box of cereal and I would find the choice of career, a professional tree faller and life long hand faller, as something a strong Fe type would not choose to do. Not for this reason alone do I not type him ESE.

    Boundaries isn't enterilly the issue, its more about controlling the moment by moment events in an effort to reach out and make it easier for me, which I can see is something he does for people in general, but came up to a person who doesn't require it. Things have improved, talking about it here helped and also just accepting it on my end also helped. Now that we are more comfortable around each other I will be able to take total control of my own tasks without causing any "toes being stepped on".

    Caregivers are somewhat all dense in this sense to varying degrees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I have no idea what type your friend is. However, this situation might not be type-related. If we take the situation as them doing you a favor by driving you somewhere, they might be extracting their pay for this service by passive-aggressive delaying, so you will hesitate to ask them for a favor again. They are the driver, so now they are in control of the situation.
    Yes in a sense, it is a form of power dynamic. In whatever guise its there and I am aware of it. I'm hoping we strike that balance, because I can see I have lot's to learn from him professionally. I'm seeing as of today that this can and will happen.

    I haven't seen LSE's do this kind of thing. My LSE mother would do a slow burn when my SLI father would drag his feet when she wanted to go somewhere.
    Yes I have seen it and I can't see beyond him being LSI, that he must clearly be something ST.

    Also, my LSI ex-GF once wanted to go to a museum that was an hour away. We made plans, I said that the museum opens on Sunday at 9AM and closes at 4PM, we should leave at about 9 (I knew she liked to sleep in), get there at 10, and we'd have six hours to view the artworks.
    Well, she wasn't ready to go at 9, she had to make a few phone calls, then she had to iron her clothes, then she had to clean her living room, and when we finally got out the door at 1:45PM (!), she decided that she had to have this certain kind of coffee, so we stopped at every gas station between her place and the museum until she finally found something acceptable. We arrived at the museum at 3:30PM, just a few minutes before they closed. She was in control of the entire day, but like you, I just let it go. It was what it was.
    As I said it is a somewhat precarious position for me and in a practical sense I am going to have to literally buy my own freedom if I don't want to fall under these situations again.

    *EDIT*
    It occurred to me that this could also be an Se power situation. You want to show who's in charge of space by leaving your banana peel on the armrest,
    There was about 5 seconds between my finishing it to armrest to him moving it. I felt that it was casual, yet could see that it would be indicative of many more things to come. His car, his space. I get it. I'm not oblivious to these things, in fact, I pretty glued into this type of awareness. Go figure, ehhhhhh? I was going to toss the peel in about 2 minutes when we reached the highway. There is a little push and pull when you first meet and work with somebody like this. I'm feeling a ton better about it now, for now. I got out in front of it instead of playing catch up so hopefully things will run smoother. I kinda let my own guard down as well, but felt that it needed to be the right time, which it is now. There is def a little low grade power struggles, there always is and especially in this world I'm in, which I am fine with. You have to play the game and still be courteous and respectful and not damage things as you move along. I think its tough for some sociotypes to see other types as different, yet equally matched in informational elements. I really made a strong attempt to open up and listen this morning which was good.

    and your roommate wants to show you that he's in charge of the space in the car when he's driving. And he hits you where he, himself is most vulnerable, which is in your sense of Time (Ni).*
    Explain, please.

    I had no doubt it was his truck, I think that what I see now, because of all the tinkering he does on it, that he personalizes this vehicle. I once made fun of it just slightly and clearly I had literally offended him, so then I did a cute baby voice and petted the dash board and said, "I'm sorry truck I didn't mean that". This guy accepted the gesture and took it as some kind of apology. I felt phony doing it, but I guess if it works, it works. shrug. I think he is also used to being foreman in all his work places so it might be a bit hard for him to come across someone who is already dialed in, me, and might be making mistakes, but doesn't want help unless asked. Which I will do if need be. Its just the chip on my shoulder. Like i said, I've seen this pattern before and already know its not what I'm after in life.

    Which is a good example of why, in the smallest details, Se types are better paired with Ni types than with other Se types. (And vice-versa.)
    Explain, please.

    *So often, people try to hit others in the areas in which they, themselves, are most vulnerable. This is a very poor offensive strategy, because it just bounces off some people.
    There are no intentional hits in this situation I assure you. The nature of what is going on, cooperation is ESSENTIAL. Its just the things I've mentioned that could use smoothing out and being how I am I will have to do it because I'm pretty determined. I mentioned the time to get to the shop one morning when we were late and we both got our hackles up ad I immediately precieved the tension and felt woah, this is a trouble area, do not pressure about time lines here. Inter-relationships are a process, you know?

    An example of this is Trump calling people he wants to belittle "losers", when he, himself, has been doing nothing but losing since Day One. If he goes up against an intuitive type, he's going to be in real trouble.
    Can we not mention him, please? Asleep people make me sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    the need and use in a cooperation creates codependencies
    types differ by regions where they consciously more seek for a cooperation. it's valued regions. by strong they want to care about others, in weak want to be cared
    Yes I see this and I recognize it for what it is. I think its hard for some strong caring type to accept that caring doesn't go over well. I'm trying to lighten up though now.

    if you do not like a cooperation and relations, then mb your valued regions are other then at the opponent
    I don't think I ever stated I did not like cooperation and relations, just not valuing these kind per se.

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    Haha I put my bag on the front seat and he comes on and tells me he moved it to the back seat for me... I said you MUST be a Dad of kids, eh?

    I said you dony have to do that kind of thing for me. Im not sure he gets the hint yet. Caregivers are often so dense.
    I cam predict their moves a mile away.

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    Uhoh cant go through McDs drive through because the truck is too loud, maybe, and they might tell him to shut it off. Si overconsideration of strangers temp comfort overload much.....



    Who cares about the McDs staff I want to get a fucking move on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    I think its hard for some strong caring type to accept that caring doesn't go over well.
    As I've explained, people of all types care about others. Mostly by their ego functions. Not Si types only.
    It's also baseless to say that to understand the results (positive and negative) of caring for Si types is harder than for other types. Results and what happens in ego regions is understood better than average, in common.
    Generally problems are from the lack of caring in weak regions, not taking into account them well. For example, T type may point on T-region issues in a bad emotional way and those advices will be accepted in lesser degree than could. Or people will get the logical use, but their emotional state will be harmed and the sum result will be worse.
    Also there are problems from how your caring is perceived and accepted. As in case of other opponent's values the perception mb worse than expected. And sometimes even results mb worse than expected. For example the care of Fe types by Te types is often perceived as annoying emotionality, while Fe types could to want to support a better mood or to improve it at an opponent - while the result mb worsening of emotional state of Te type.

    > I don't think I ever stated I did not like cooperation and relations, just not valuing these kind per se.

    The idea on which you here replied was is when you dislike types related behavior this mb explained by your other values.
    You are not objective in the evaluation of what happens - you are prejusticed to perceive it more negatively than it is, in case of your other values. And you may get worse results from that behavior in this case too.
    The said by you in this theme is that you dislike important part of some relations which is significant and stable part of opponent's activity. If you dislike significant part of the relations, then you dislike significantly those relations.

    Resume.
    All types care about other people by strong functions, have and create codependencies. Mostly problems go from weak regions where people _do not_ care.
    If you dislike Si types style of caring, then this may point on you non-Si valued type.
    Also, something you may relate wrongly to Si motivated behavior. For example, to place a trash in more appropriate place mb from J motivation to do as usual or "correctly". To take your bag [in case you are woman] - to follow ethical norms of reducing physical load on women. And you in your turn may dislike a behavior by different reasons. For example, to dislike when your bag is taken because do not like when your things are taken without your permision, but not because you do not like geting this physical help.
    Your opponent may even to have not Si type and in this case his actions in Si region mb lesser appropriate and worse than could.

    I hope the said was enough to understand this
    "caregivers create codependencies"
    as not appropriate claim to be Si types specifics or something bad itself.
    Deal with those who has and establish codependencies which you like more according to your IR with them.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I expect you won’t be able to alter his base nature (the tendency to help), but you might be able to redirect it.

    I've been around too-helpful LSEs and the best way to prevent smothering has been to in one way or another convey that what I need from them is space to figure things out myself, even if it's hard, so that I can grow and be competent.

    They love helping people they like, and they really like clear and calm communication with regards to what people need. They do guesswork, but they know they're bad at it. It's so much less stressful to them when people say, "I need this; can you help?" Like Eliza said, if he is a genuinely caring person, he'll adapt at least a little to what he perceives you need.

    So something like, "I've been working a lot on being competent and self-sufficient. I'd really appreciate you helping me with that by encouraging me to handle as much on my own as I can - from little things like [fill-in-the-blank] to big things [fill-in-the-blank]. If I run into a dead end I would also appreciate being able to talk to you to get your insights. And if you notice me missing something, please verbally bring it to my attention so I can practice fixing it."

    The LSEs usually need at least two or three reminders as well as concrete examples of how your request plays out. Like with the moving the bag thing, pointing out "Hey, this is an example of what I meant earlier about me practicing doing things myself. Thanks for thinking of me and next time gently ask me to move it myself. That'll help me a lot."

    It might feel a little fake to you, but it's a general strategy that I've seen work before. And it seem like that is genuinely what you need right now.

    Is this at all helpful? As you've mentioned, this seems like a somewhat unique situation where "normal" methods of communicating wouldn't work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    Uhoh cant go through McDs drive through because the truck is too loud, maybe, and they might tell him to shut it off. Si overconsideration of strangers temp comfort overload much.....
    Interesting you say this. I've noticed this a couple of times with LSEs. But when it's brought to their attention they usually insist that they care more for the feelings of the person they're friends with than strangers. And, yet, the concern for the comfort of external circles persists sometimes to the discomfort of their companions.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    I like my space way cleaner than my husband who is LSE so I don’t know what the complaints are about. He’s just doing what he’s used to in terms of habits. So let him. I let my husband clean up however he likes. Being Se devaluing I don’t have to have things of aesthetics my way. I will let him place stuff where ever he likes but if I want to organize it I ask him if he likes my method and he usually put in his feedback and if he says no I’ll ask why and he’ll tell me “I’m visual. If I can’t see it I can’t find it.” We’re always finding methods and perfecting them
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    Uhoh cant go through McDs drive through because the truck is too loud, maybe, and they might tell him to shut it off. Si overconsideration of strangers temp comfort overload much.....



    Who cares about the McDs staff I want to get a fucking move on!
    My husband doesn’t care for the feelings or comforts of others before my own. So I would question the type of person that you are dating. But stand up for yourself and say “no I’m not going to turn off the truck because I am lazy and it doesn’t work for me. Do you want to drive?” Then let him do the work. He’ll usually drive unless he’s tired but if he says no he’s tired tell him “then please respect my driving “ and he’ll call you lazy so? Call him lazy back and tell him “I guess we’re alike that’s why we are such good FRIENDS “ lol Fi back at him


    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    Haha I put my bag on the front seat and he comes on and tells me he moved it to the back seat for me... I said you MUST be a Dad of kids, eh?

    I said you dony have to do that kind of thing for me. Im not sure he gets the hint yet. Caregivers are often so dense.
    I cam predict their moves a mile away.

    My husband would have thrown the bag back himself to clear space for me and himself. I don’t care.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-09-2019 at 02:15 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    As I've explained, people of all types care about others. Mostly by their ego functions. Not Si types only.
    It's also baseless to say that to understand the results (positive and negative) of caring for Si types is harder than for other types. Results and what happens in ego regions is understood better than average, in common.
    Generally problems are from the lack of caring in weak regions, not taking into account them well. For example, T type may point on T-region issues in a bad emotional way and those advices will be accepted in lesser degree than could. Or people will get the logical use, but their emotional state will be harmed and the sum result will be worse.
    Also there are problems from how your caring is perceived and accepted. As in case of other opponent's values the perception mb worse than expected. And sometimes even results mb worse than expected. For example the care of Fe types by Te types is often perceived as annoying emotionality, while Fe types could to want to support a better mood or to improve it at an opponent - while the result mb worsening of emotional state of Te type.

    > I don't think I ever stated I did not like cooperation and relations, just not valuing these kind per se.

    The idea on which you here replied was is when you dislike types related behavior this mb explained by your other values.
    You are not objective in the evaluation of what happens - you are prejusticed to perceive it more negatively than it is, in case of your other values. And you may get worse results from that behavior in this case too.
    The said by you in this theme is that you dislike important part of some relations which is significant and stable part of opponent's activity. If you dislike significant part of the relations, then you dislike significantly those relations.

    Resume.
    All types care about other people by strong functions, have and create codependencies. Mostly problems go from weak regions where people _do not_ care.
    If you dislike Si types style of caring, then this may point on you non-Si valued type.
    Also, something you may relate wrongly to Si motivated behavior. For example, to place a trash in more appropriate place mb from J motivation to do as usual or "correctly". To take your bag [in case you are woman] - to follow ethical norms of reducing physical load on women. And you in your turn may dislike a behavior by different reasons. For example, to dislike when your bag is taken because do not like when your things are taken without your permision, but not because you do not like geting this physical help.
    Your opponent may even to have not Si type and in this case his actions in Si region mb lesser appropriate and worse than could.

    I hope the said was enough to understand this
    "caregivers create codependencies"
    as not appropriate claim to be Si types specifics or something bad itself.
    Deal with those who has and establish codependencies which you like more according to your IR with them.
    He just wants to be proper. Display proper behavior. Be courteous and polite
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-07-2019 at 04:34 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    ---> "just relax, settle down, take a load off, we will just wait for the truck to warm up and then we will go"

    ...2 hours later....



    its all a head game, its all a head game, its all a head game.
    I agree with him. You need to relax

    Quote Originally Posted by Finaplex View Post
    One thing I just learned: do NOT pressure him about time lines.

    Sitting around waiting for everything to be perfect with his truck before we can leave.....

    zzzzzzzzzzzz
    Yup Ni devalued. Just relax. Things will work out
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Give em one of these

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    @Eliza Thomason you can read an compare my comments between what I say and what others say here

    Don’t walk on eggshells around ESTj. They don’t like weak people. Also keep your relationship exciting and full of love. There are many ways of doing this
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-07-2019 at 05:21 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    What happens if you forcefully tell LSE to stop helping you? I notice when they offer up ideas, if you decline it is a very sensitive spot for some of them.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    What happens if you forcefully tell LSE to stop helping you? I notice when they offer up ideas, if you decline it is a very sensitive spot for some of them.
    Why is the LSE holding you? I would think that they would get the point that you are tired
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Why is the LSE holding you? I would think that they would get the point that you are tired
    Like let's say you are working on a project, completely by yourself. LSE comes over and sees your project and offers up suggestions. What happens when you don't take their suggestions? And some can be forceful with their suggestions.

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