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Thread: How to Interact with an ENTp and INTj? As an ENTj

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    We are approximately 40% related to mice. Hard Headed's Avatar
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    Default How to Interact with an ENTp and INTj? As an ENTj

    Hello,

    I identify myself as an ENTj-Te. I am having difficulty conversing with and learning from the two instructors in one of my mandatory college courses. I believe the two instructors are ENTp and INTj.

    Does anyone have any pointers or advice in better interacting and adapting to these two types for an ENTj? I feel like everything I do, giving a 100% dedication; it is just not equally valued by them.

    The course consists of a very reformed, Socratic class layout about epistemology and critical thinking to improve writing skills. The professors argue for the equal value of ethos, logos, and pathos; stating everything is subjective and dynamic. No truths in the world.

    The whole class is VERY abstract and 'distant' for me. I don't really know what they want me to do from a behavioral and academic perspective. I thought it may be worth a shot asking Socionics forums. Thanks.

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    Metaphysician thehotelambush's Avatar
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    I would offer advice, but in my experience humanities courses grading is highly arbitrary and influenced by how much the teacher likes you or agrees with your viewpoints. If they are Alpha NT then they might find open-mindedness or entertaining abstractions to be positive traits.
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    do you know or have you tried asking how the evaluation process is going to be? Maybe it would help you to focus in achieving the goals and get a good note. I haven't had a very abstract experience with LIIs, but I certainly can understand ILE getting very abstract (almost on purpose confusing) as it happens with Ne. Anyway, they do have 4DTe so try to ask how what you are learning can make you achieve your goals. Besides making sure of not failing the class, I think you could also just relax a bit and enjoy what they are saying, after all philosophy is a lot about just thinking about stuff for the sake of it, reaching conclusions, etc. I don't think ILE teacher is going to be really strict/rigid in evaluation, though, maybe LII could be (unless s/he's LII-Ne).

    Also a good way to interact with Ne is just listening and letting it to take you in their worlds of ideas. Nothing more, just like being transported to their worlds. So, after making sure about how the process of evaluation is going to be maybe listening and relaxing and thinking in what they are saying instead of pushing in getting something too concrete could help. You have 4DNe after all too.

    Then, nothing in a class based in greek philosophy would have the goal of matching truths in the world today, but I guess they are teaching you rhetoric, which is a way to construct discourses and get certain effect in others. It's almost the art of communicating and being convincing (reaching your goal when writing or talking). Maybe if you investigate more of it by your own you'll get more into the subject and enjoy more the class.

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    Good luck, @Hard Headed. I have no suggestions beyond what anyone else says in this thread. That class sounds like a slice of hell to me. All BS, no practical applications.

    It's hard for me to put forth an effort with regard to my unvalued functions. Your teachers probably have the same problem with your Te, but with less awareness of the nature of the problem. You could look at this as an opportunity to learn how to deal with very different types of people in the world.

    I would do what ever the others in this thread suggest, and then I would use this as a learning experience regarding who you eventually want to work for, and who you want to have working for you, and why.

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    We are approximately 40% related to mice. Hard Headed's Avatar
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    Yeah, I did not want to be rude. But the class is completely subjective and not applicable for real world situations...

    Thank you for the input though. I guess I will show more interest in the abstract and make an effort to indulge in their Ne (which is very apparent, they are always having random conversations about unrelated subjects).

    I tried meeting with the ILE about an assignment before it was due. Instead, we went on a half-hour tangent about unrelated academia. He refuses to provide input on assignments before submission because students should not be concerned regarding the points but rather the learning objective. I wouldn't care, but I have to maintain a specific GPA for my scholarship.

    I guess I'll share their dynamics. The ENTp is always mentally 'bouncing' and he gets in these very tense thinking moments; seen pulling his hair and pacing. The INTj is into fashion and will sit quietly on the side, eventually stepping in to explain the Ne rants from the ENTp. INTj is much more calm.

    Within this dynamic, the differences between Ne supported by Ti and Ti supported by Ne are so obvious. The ENTp will contemplate questions/problems and generate random ideas, then check their Ti logic. Kinda like a person throwing tons of papers on the floor and frantically looking for a specific one. Whereas, the INTj will focus on the problem and digest it more with Ti. Once he comes to a mental block, he will think about a few ideas and continue the resolution. Kinda like a person gradually building a lego structure, slow building and searching for new pieces to complete the whole piece.

    When we hear different arguments, they immediately generate different ideas and principles from their 'mental system' to resolve the issue/state their claim. I guess as an ENTj, I often will compare and contrast the issue to other occurrences. Was the issue solved previously, if so what were the methods? If no previous occurrences, I will find or remember previous factual information to create a solution/claim. Thereafter, I will also try to predict the long-term effects of this solution/claim, but I think that is more-so related to Ni. Kinda like a person forming clay, back and forth different shapes based upon the intended goal. Which I've noticed... my solutions/claims are often much more adaptable based upon the information I learn over time. Whereas previous Ti individuals that I've met, their solutions are relatively static. Even when they are fed Ne, often that 'new information' will be redirected to a different logical conclusion because their mental platform has changed. I more readily accept a 'new solution', where as the Ti people have to readjust their whole mental thinking.

    I feel sometimes that the ENTp and INTj will find 'facts' to support their logical principles. So really they solve issues internally, whereas I find/remember related external sources to create a solution. A pretty obvious comparison between Te and Ti IMO.

    Nonetheless, thanks for the advice!
    Last edited by Hard Headed; 02-27-2019 at 02:52 AM.

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    Because it is subjective it is important to get to know their triggers. There can be badly gone types in any profession. So to humour their views or challenge them etc. It is itself a discovery...
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Headed View Post
    Yeah, I did not want to be rude. But the class is completely subjective and not applicable for real world situations...

    Thank you for the input though. I guess I will show more interest in the abstract and make an effort to indulge in their Ne (which is very apparent, they are always having random conversations about unrelated subjects).

    I tried meeting with the ILE about an assignment before it was due. Instead, we went on a half-hour tangent about unrelated academia. He refuses to provide input on assignments before submission because students should not be concerned regarding the points but rather the learning objective. I wouldn't care, but I have to maintain a specific GPA for my scholarship.

    I guess I'll share their dynamics. The ENTp is always mentally 'bouncing' and he gets in these very tense thinking moments; seen pulling his hair and pacing. The INTj is into fashion and will sit quietly on the side, eventually stepping in to explain the Ne rants from the ENTp. INTj is much more calm.

    Within this dynamic, the differences between Ne supported by Ti and Ti supported by Ne are so obvious. The ENTp will contemplate questions/problems and generate random ideas, then check their Ti logic. Kinda like a person throwing tons of papers on the floor and frantically looking for a specific one. Whereas, the INTj will focus on the problem and digest it more with Ti. Once he comes to a mental block, he will think about a few ideas and continue the resolution. Kinda like a person gradually building a lego structure, slow building and searching for new pieces to complete the whole piece.

    When we hear different arguments, they immediately generate different ideas and principles from their 'mental system' to resolve the issue/state their claim. I guess as an ENTj, I often will compare and contrast the issue to other occurrences. Was the issue solved previously, if so what were the methods? If no previous occurrences, I will find or remember previous factual information to create a solution/claim. Thereafter, I will also try to predict the long-term effects of this solution/claim, but I think that is more-so related to Ni. Kinda like a person forming clay, back and forth different shapes based upon the intended goal. Which I've noticed... my solutions/claims are often much more adaptable based upon the information I learn over time. Whereas previous Ti individuals that I've met, their solutions are relatively static. Even when they are fed Ne, often that 'new information' will be redirected to a different logical conclusion because their mental platform has changed. I more readily accept a 'new solution', where as the Ti people have to readjust their whole mental thinking.

    I feel sometimes that the ENTp and INTj will find 'facts' to support their logical principles. So really they solve issues internally, whereas I find/remember related external sources to create a solution. A pretty obvious comparison between Te and Ti IMO.

    Nonetheless, thanks for the advice!
    @Hard Headed, your description of ILE vs LII is spot-on. This is my impression, also.

    Both ILE’s and LII’s are typically smart and rational, but for whatever reason, I find it easier to work productively with LII’s. And I do. I know five of them professionally, and they are all genuine assets.

    I find that ILE’s do seem to “bounce”, and they are always looking for alternative ways to do things, which causes them to be endlessly inventive, but we frequently seem to unintentionally piss each other off.

    So if you need one of these guys on your side, you might have better long-term luck with the LII. ILE’s seem to always eventually want to kill me.

    To get along with the ILE, keep things light, never talk about your personal life, and try to have conversations on his turf, which is in a crowd, not one-on-one.
    Also, don’t challenge his authority. Keep it light. You’re there to have fun and to talk about random, impersonal things. If you find yourself drifting towards the personal, stop talking.

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    LII who is into fashion? As a science? Are you certain of your type determination?

    ILEs seem to prefer further stimulation over answers as if answers will shorten their exciting journey or better answers will be found if one turns over enough rocks. LIIs want short efficient schedules - to turn over the fewest rocks possible. These two types tend to be better suited to research so you may be dealing with incompetent instructors, or people who hate this aspect of their job and don't really care to communicate.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LII who is into fashion? As a science? Are you certain of your type determination?

    ILEs seem to prefer further stimulation over answers as if answers will shorten their exciting journey or better answers will be found if one turns over enough rocks. LIIs want short efficient schedules - to turn over the fewest rocks possible. These two types tend to be better suited to research so you may be dealing with incompetent instructors, or people who hate this aspect of their job and don't really care to communicate.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Lol. “LII’s into fashion” did seem like an off-note. It is true that most of the LII’s whom I know seem to be oblivious to the way they look, but both my LII sister and the LII wife of an LIE friend of mine are able to dress very, very well. Both of their husbands ( LSE and LIE) are pretty well-off, though, and place a lot of importance on looking great.

    And yes, ILE’s seem to not want to ever come to a conclusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    And yes, ILE’s seem to not want to ever come to a conclusion.
    It just takes a while to get into subnuclear level while maintaining cohesion.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    do not be bad in opponents valued functions, at least
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Lol. “LII’s into fashion” did seem like an off-note. It is true that most of the LII’s whom I know seem to be oblivious to the way they look, but both my LII sister and the LII wife of an LIE friend of mine are able to dress very, very well. Both of their husbands ( LSE and LIE) are pretty well-off, though, and place a lot of importance on looking great.

    And yes, ILE’s seem to not want to ever come to a conclusion.
    wasnt ur sister also good at manipulating people ethically? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    wasnt ur sister also good at manipulating people ethically? lol
    @Number 9 large, I don't think "manipulate" is the best term for what she did. A better term might be sadistic.

    My sisters and I grew up in a family without any Feelers. An LII, of course, craves Fe, which my sister, being raised in a Delta house, did not get. Her remedy for this was pretty cold and calculating.

    My LII sister is a good looking blonde, goes to the gym and is buff, and has striking secondary sexual characteristics. She can also out-drink most men. To get her dose of Fe, she would go alone to a bar and would look over the crowd of men and would select one and proposition him. If he hesitated, she'd say something like, "If you have to think about it, forget it" and would move on to the next guy until she found some guy willing to have sex with her that night. Someone surfacy, someone without much depth of thought, someone without any Fi.
    She used to bring home some of the most derelict-looking guys you could imagine. She'd spend weeks or months going out with them, having sex, getting them to dress better, supporting their dreams, and just when she got them to be confident and presentable and in love with her, she'd drop them forever.
    These guys never knew what hit them. They would invariably collapse back into the gutter, only this time, they had something to which they could contrast their crappy lives.

    The Fe that she got from these guys must have been like a drug. I can only imagine.

    She's torturing an LSE right now, but I think he's torturing her back.

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    @Adam Strange your idea of what an LII is is truly strange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    @Adam Strange your idea of what an LII is is truly strange.
    I have to agree. I'm curious what makes her one.

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    Communication between ENTj and ENTp seems poor at best. They generally have much different objectives although their perspectives are rather similar. ENTjs usually have very narrow data filters with specific objectives in mind while ENTps view this as having tunnel vision or lack of curiosity. ENTjs usually want focus and immediate answers so ENTps can appear rather scattered and unproductive. So don't look for products from ENTp; look for their vision.

    Communication between ENTj and INTj is far better although not perfect. They're both objective oriented but INTjs often look upon ENTjs as egocentric and unpredictable where ENTjs often find INTjs unreadable and unapproachable. INTjs generally have a much broader view of issues where ENTjs seem better at resolving the issues quickly. Don't look to INTjs for approval or immediate resolves; seek out their approaches and strategies.

    Communication becomes much improved when you know what your after.

    a.k.a. I/O

    Edit: Don't expect any spoon-feeding from either of these two types; they're too detached.........
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 03-02-2019 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    @Adam Strange your idea of what an LII is is truly strange.
    @thehotelambush, I was describing some unhealthy behavior of my very distorted sister, not my idea of what an LII is. A true LII should be able to make that distinction instinctively.

    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    I have to agree. I'm curious what makes her one.
    @COOL AND MANLY, What makes her an LII? No one really knows.

    To which you will reply, "Fair enough", and laugh.


    However, if you are asking me why I think she is an LII, then I can give you an answer.

    Because I don't reduce everything to its component atoms and then build back up a clear but fractured image (an image lacking motivating forces) of the world, but rather do an evaluation of processes and form a gradually more accurate gestalt, my explanation might be a bit hard to follow, but it's all I've got.
    I lived with her for 12 years (she is six years younger than me; my youngest, favorite sister) and so I know her pretty well. We formed a defensive line against our Delta parents and Delta middle sister. She once told me that, growing up, she thought she was exactly like me, but then realized that we were nothing alike.

    LIE....LII
    Te.....Ti
    Ni.....Ne
    Se....Si
    Fi.....Fe

    She is a thinking introvert.
    She sometimes bounces out of her shell to seek me out for a talk and a laugh, and then she retreats to her solitude.
    She analyzes situations dispassionately, extracting fundamental details and researching them for consistent proofs to tie things together in an attempt to understand what might happen in the future.
    She quickly corrects me on matters of facts, which she sees very clearly.
    She seems to see motives very poorly, or in very simple terms.
    She gets upset when someone doesn't appreciate her robotic but often effective help.
    She gets crazy when she doesn't get enough Fe. An example would be her late night, drunken calls to me threatening suicide, just to get a reaction from me. Another is her interactions with her LSE husband. When he ignores her too long, she will get blind drunk, threaten suicide, and go upstairs to their bedroom and shoot the furniture with her 9mm handgun. Their bedroom walls have bullet holes in them.
    I really like her. I feel very much like a protective older brother when I'm around her, but I know she has to work things out by herself with just my emotional support. Beebe said there is a natural attraction between types with introverted and extroverted first functions, and I have found that to be true.
    She is a classifier. She has an advanced degree in Chemistry (what else?) and she works for a College and is in charge of their phone system. She has an office by herself and interacts with people's requests through emails. She says it is a perfect job.
    She is absolutely terrible at office politics. If she weren't excellent at her job, she wouldn't have one. She has a very, very hard time advocating for herself or doing anything which requires Se. She does own a high horsepower Mazda(?) something, which only she can drive. I think it could be raced, but I'm not into boxy ugly cars, so IDK.
    She has an occasional EIE BF who is a pilot. He provides Fe and she says he understands her but is terrible in bed.
    She is married to a well-off LSE who does not understand her at all but who is, she says, great in bed. She is fine with this arrangement.
    She no longer has any contact with our parents, and is fine with that, too.
    She set the Ohio record for highest blood alcohol content of anyone who survived that much drinking.
    She is logical and dispassionate and if you give her time, she has amazing powers of analysis. Her analysis are not muddied by emotion.
    She and my IEI cousin lived together for several years and had a great time wheeling around and exploring life. They are Fe-Ti buds. Benefit?
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-02-2019 at 12:43 PM.

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    Honestly that sounds nothing like any LII I know. I still find it hard to believe after putting it all together that this person is LII.. I mean an unhealthy LII is more likely to be an incel. Like most logical introverts. They are not going to gain sudden superpowers and become womanizers, regardless of circumstances/intentions. I'm not sure about female LIIs, but she seems way too forward relationship-wise to be one. Not sure what to think of this. Thanks for clarifying in any case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Honestly that sounds nothing like any LII I know. I still find it hard to believe after putting it all together that this person is LII.. I mean an unhealthy LII is more likely to be an incel. Like most logical introverts. They are not going to gain sudden superpowers and become womanizers, regardless of circumstances/intentions. I'm not sure about female LIIs, but she seems way too forward relationship-wise to be one. Not sure what to think of this. Thanks for clarifying in any case.
    She's not the female equivalent of a womanizer. She isn't looking to be adored. She's looking for someone with Fe who "gets" her, and she has a plan. She told me she'd settle for a relationship that was 90% sex if she could get 10% Fe.

    Here is a picture of her as a teen. https://i.imgur.com/SCHsPqj.jpg

    At the time when that photo was taken, she'd been living in a very hostile environment all her life. Our LSE mother told her that she had been a mistake.

    What type do you think she is?
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 03-02-2019 at 02:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    What type do you think she is?
    Hm. I don't know. She could very well be LII. You know her more than I do. I was hoping to gain some insight in what an LIE would see in an LII, I guess. I'm not going to disregard your input. I just find it intriguing. Thanks for sharing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOL AND MANLY View Post
    Hm. I don't know. She could very well be LII. You know her more than I do. I was hoping to gain some insight in what an LIE sees in an LII, I guess. I'm not going to disregard your input. I just find it intriguing. Thanks for sharing.
    Ah, how an LII looks to an LIE.

    I can tell you how LII's look to me.

    They are introverted thinkers who can be relied on for factual information. They typically meet deadlines, and when they care enough to do something, their work usually exceeds expectations.
    They think very differently than I do, but between us, we can solve almost any logical problem.
    They typically don't like to interact with people all the time, being introverts, but when they do, they can be interesting and engaging conversationalists.
    They seem to get annoyed when people try to impose their wills on them. Lots of types are like this, but LII's will bitch about this vehemently in private. These are about the only times I've seen them excited about something.
    They suck at office politics and don't seem to seek power, although they appreciate being recognized for good work. They can make great managers if the people working for them don't have much Se. And even then, they are very rules-oriented and don't seem to take offense easily.
    They secretly love gossip.

    I find the males to be emotionally remote but basically good guys. I particularly value them for their intelligence and analytical powers and apparent impartiality.
    I find the females to be strangely hot, but this is an error in my brain's ability to assign cause and effect. What I'm really attracted to is their amazing Ti, and some poorly written but evolutionarily functionally useful brain program misinterprets the Ti attraction for sexual attraction. (Great if you are looking for any reason whatsoever to make more humans, but not so great if you want a harmonious life.)

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    @Adam Strange I find it almost impossible to type with confidence any person with overriding emotional issues; and parts of your sister's description smacks of Ip. My father was essentially a resentful, self-flagellator (perhaps manic depressive, certainly self-destructive) and an alcoholic (depression source? - it's a chicken and egg scenario) so I never could ascertain his type; the closest that I could predict was ISXx.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @Adam Strange I find it almost impossible to type with confidence any person with overriding emotional issues; and parts of your sister's description smacks of Ip. My father was essentially a resentful, self-flagellator (perhaps manic depressive, certainly self-destructive) and an alcoholic (depression source? - it's a chicken and egg scenario) so I never could ascertain his type; the closest that I could predict was ISXx.

    a.k.a. I/O
    @Rebelondeck, I'm the same way. My ability to type someone is completely destroyed when they have mental health issues. However, I've known my sister all her life, seen her through thick and thin, watched her at work and with her several husbands and many BF's, and everything points to her being LII.
    LII's can sometimes look like extroverts while actually being introverts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Number 9 large, I don't think "manipulate" is the best term for what she did. A better term might be sadistic.

    My sisters and I grew up in a family without any Feelers. An LII, of course, craves Fe, which my sister, being raised in a Delta house, did not get. Her remedy for this was pretty cold and calculating.

    My LII sister is a good looking blonde, goes to the gym and is buff, and has striking secondary sexual characteristics. She can also out-drink most men. To get her dose of Fe, she would go alone to a bar and would look over the crowd of men and would select one and proposition him. If he hesitated, she'd say something like, "If you have to think about it, forget it" and would move on to the next guy until she found some guy willing to have sex with her that night. Someone surfacy, someone without much depth of thought, someone without any Fi.
    She used to bring home some of the most derelict-looking guys you could imagine. She'd spend weeks or months going out with them, having sex, getting them to dress better, supporting their dreams, and just when she got them to be confident and presentable and in love with her, she'd drop them forever.
    These guys never knew what hit them. They would invariably collapse back into the gutter, only this time, they had something to which they could contrast their crappy lives.

    The Fe that she got from these guys must have been like a drug. I can only imagine.

    She's torturing an LSE right now, but I think he's torturing her back.
    I just took a look at her pic. I am not sure if you are typing her LII because she looks intelligent to you. I have seen you talk about her several times and if you use socionics nothing points to that type. Maybe she just represses emotion and is not LII at all. I don't get the thing about doing it for Fe. You can get Fe anywhere. It is all around you. Hanging in the air like oxygen you can just inhale. You can't fuck the pain of life away. If this behavior continued into her adulthood then I would rethink her type at least. You rely too much on VI not logic to type people.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




  25. #25
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @Rebelondeck, I'm the same way. My ability to type someone is completely destroyed when they have mental health issues. However, I've known my sister all her life, seen her through thick and thin, watched her at work and with her several husbands and many BF's, and everything points to her being LII.
    LII's can sometimes look like extroverts while actually being introverts.
    Any introvert can look like an extrovert or an extrovert can look like an introvert. Drugs, alcohol and mental health can affect this. I think that is why people have such a hard time typing celebs with those kinds of problems. If you were to give a quick list of her traits that point to LII what would they be? Is it a long or short list?


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




  26. #26
    We are approximately 40% related to mice. Hard Headed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Communication between ENTj and ENTp seems poor at best. They generally have much different objectives although their perspectives are rather similar. ENTjs usually have very narrow data filters with specific objectives in mind while ENTps view this as having tunnel vision or lack of curiosity. ENTjs usually want focus and immediate answers so ENTps can appear rather scattered and unproductive. So don't look for products from ENTp; look for their vision.

    Communication between ENTj and INTj is far better although not perfect. They're both objective oriented but INTjs often look upon ENTjs as egocentric and unpredictable where ENTjs often find INTjs unreadable and unapproachable. INTjs generally have a much broader view of issues where ENTjs seem better at resolving the issues quickly. Don't look to INTjs for approval or immediate resolves; seek out their approaches and strategies.

    Communication becomes much improved when you know what your after.

    a.k.a. I/O

    Edit: Don't expect any spoon-feeding from either of these two types; they're too detached.........
    This sums perfectly to what I have noticed and currently experiencing. Great description.

    Regarding Adam's sister, she doesn't sound INTj to me, but rather sounds like an unhealthy ESFp IMO.

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