Help with my ex-girlfriend's type

[Expat]

Hi,

I’d appreciate any input about the type of a woman I’ll describe below. I have an idea but I prefer to read your views first.

Thanks for any input, this is very important to me and if any of you think this is too long, I can make it shorter

There’s a story that I’ll tell later. Right now I’m trying to understand what kind of person she is. She’s my ex-girlfriend.

I’ll start with the characteristics I’m very sure about, and go on to less obvious ones. Sorry if not all of them are relevant to typing.


So:

- she’s very successful in her field – she’s a journalist – and she has basically focused on her professional rather than personal life.

-she is comfortable with exercising power over subordinates – she has fired people over matters of principle – but her ultimate goal, professionally, is not to become a editor but, rather, to become an independent free-lance writer. She has no ambition to become the boss of other people.

-However, she finds it very stressful to be micro-managed by a boss whom she doesn’t respect at all. She prefers to do her own thing with as little supervision as possible.

-She’s very concerned about, and proud of, her professional standing and ethics, and shocked when she discovers that colleagues have faked news.

- she's perfectly able to interview strangers on the street but does not particularly enjoy that part of the job.

-She very clearly plans her time separating work from pleasure. She would welcome me into her house, then ask me to wait in the living room as she finished some work. After that, she’d be ready for a night of passion and extremely annoyed if work interfered.

-She felt generally far more comfortable with planning her day, her next month, and her future than with improvising – felt really stressed when she couldn’t plan ahead, and disliked changing plans in the last moment (even though her job required that very often).

-She intensively dislikes getting spontaneous phone calls. She prefers to receive a text message asking when she’d have time for a call. Likewise, she prefers to ask in advance when she could call. But then she’s happy to talk for hours.

-She has absolutely no interest in the kind of girly small talk, “what precisely have I done today” or “what clothes she was wearing” etc. She’s perfectly comfortable with “awkward silences” and dislikes pointless remarks made only to break them.

-She’s able to talk for hours, though – but always on matters of substance: the past, the plans for the future, problems at work, politics.

-she has a limited circle of very close friends to whom she’s very loyal and geographical distance plays no role. Her friends regularly consult her on their relationship problems, which she analyzes in a cool and detached way, not hesitating to criticize her friends.

-She’s constantly trying to improve her skills with courses. Her next ambition is to learn how to play the piano.

-She has a very intense sex drive, with masochistic tendencies.

-she cares a lot about eating good and expensive food, either cooking herself or going to expensive restaurants. Since she tends to put on weight, she then compensates by intense physical activity. When she’s travelling and can’t go to the gym, she puts on weight, which depresses her very much. However, she finds it very difficult to go on a diet, even when she can’t go the gym.

-Most of her books are non-fiction; however, she also reads novels, especially in times of emotional stress.

- she doesn't laugh very often but when she does, it is with a loud, spontaneous and (to me) unpleasant laugh.


Despite what I observed about her preference for planning, with regard to her own emotions she could be very volatile:

-Quite a few times, after saying that she’d prefer not to see me, she’d then change her mind and call me, saying she’d like to see me. That happened quite often.

-She’d be impatient and rude but apologize the next day – again, quite often.

-She’d tell me not to wear a particular shirt and then change her mind, saying “I was being stupid, wear that shirt if you like it”.

-She’s very hard on herself when she thinks she’s made a blunder.

-Usually she has a façade of self-confidence, but she’s also very self-critical. In private, she makes lots of self-deprecating remarks (not joking): “how can you put up with someone like me” etc.

- she does not require constant reassurance about one's feelings for her.

-She’s full of guilt about things she’s done in the past.

-She made a enormous blunder in her career when she thought she could make her boss back off a bit by threatening to resign – she totally miscalculated her own bargain power and the boss’s reaction, something I could see clearly at the time.


If any of you is interested, I can provide more information. Thanks again.

[Rocky]

I think she's an ESTJ. What type are you?

[Rocky]

Nevermind that question, I got it.

That would make you a relation of illusion.

[science as magic]

List of associations:

T not F
J not P
ESxJ or ISxJ or ESxP
Ti-Fi not Te-Fe
Se-Ne not Ni-Si
I not E
xNTJ ENxJ
NJ not NP
SP not NP
Se Ti Fi Te Ni

I guess ISTj.

[Expat]

Pedro and Rocky,

Thank you for the input.

Upon meeting her I originally thought she was INTJ, probably because of the NJ characteristics that I think Pedro also noticed, but more recently I had also reached the conclusion that ISTJ was more likely.

By the way, the phrase mentioned in some sites as summing up the ISTJ - "my word is my bond" - was a favorite of hers.

Rocky - why do you think ESTJ rather than ISTJ?

List of associations:

T not F
J not P
ESxJ or ISxJ or ESxP
Ti-Fi not Te-Fe
Se-Ne not Ni-Si
I not E
xNTJ ENxJ
NJ not NP
SP not NP
Se Ti Fi Te Ni

I guess ISTj.

Very thorough, thanks again.

Can you elaborate further on where you saw
"NJ not NP"
"SP not NP"
"Se Ti Fi Te Ni" ?

[Rocky]

Well, you know her better than I do. But going on what you wrote, somethings you said could have been ESTJ:

she finds it very stressful to be micro-managed by a boss whom she doesn’t respect at all.

A lot of ISTJs will have respect for their bosses even if they don't like them or think they are stupid. I associate this with .

She’s constantly trying to improve her skills with courses. Her next ambition is to learn how to play the piano.

Could be hidden agenda.

she cares a lot about eating good and expensive food, either cooking herself or going to expensive restaurants. Since she tends to put on weight, she then compensates by intense physical activity. When she’s travelling and can’t go to the gym, she puts on weight, which depresses her very much.

.

She’s very hard on herself when she thinks she’s made a blunder.

This is an ESTJ PoLR. It KILLS them if something doesn't go right for them.

She’s full of guilt about things she’s done in the past.

Same as above.

She’d be impatient and rude but apologize the next day – again, quite often.

This is caused by the same things above. ESxJs can be easily aggrevated and impatient with people.

she has fired people over matters of principle

I think relying on principles is ESxJ and ISxP.

[Expat]

Rocky, thank you.

A lot of ISTJs will have respect for their bosses even if they don't like them or think they are stupid. I associate this with .

Do you mean superficial respect ie they don't speak their minds? If so, perhaps you're right.

She’s constantly trying to improve her skills with courses. Her next ambition is to learn how to play the piano.

Could be hidden agenda.

I see what you mean and it's a good point. She often spoke about her "imperfections".

She’s very hard on herself when she thinks she’s made a blunder.

This is an ESTJ PoLR. It KILLS them if something doesn't go right for them.

But not ISTJs? Why?

She’s full of guilt about things she’s done in the past.

Same as above.

Is that not also part of ISTJ's typical beliefs - "I'm a failure"?

She’d be impatient and rude but apologize the next day – again, quite often.

This is caused by the same things above. ESxJs can be easily aggrevated and impatient with people.

she has fired people over matters of principle

I think relying on principles is ESxJ and ISxP.

Well, in that particular case, she fired a guy who suggested that a small bit of information in an article be faked. Not sure if one should make too much out of this.

I confess that now I'm not sure between ESTJ or ISTJ. The personality descriptions of ISTJs seem to me to fit her better, but I also see how ESTJ would explain some things.

Is there any extra information that might help to settle the issue? Rocky, Pedro, anyone?

[Rocky]

A lot of ISTJs will have respect for their bosses even if they don't like them or think they are stupid. I associate this with .

Do you mean superficial respect ie they don't speak their minds? If so, perhaps you're right.

Yeah. They might think, "Well this person is not qualified, they lack intelligence..." but then they will show (or act like) they still have respect for their superiors.

She’s very hard on herself when she thinks she’s made a blunder.

This is an ESTJ PoLR. It KILLS them if something doesn't go right for them.

But not ISTJs? Why?

She’s full of guilt about things she’s done in the past.

Same as above.

Is that not also part of ISTJ's typical beliefs - "I'm a failure"?

This is a difficult one. I think there is a fine line between the ESTJ and ISTJ PoLR. An ESTJ has a poor . It is difficult for them to foresee obstacles or bad events. This is why if something goes wrong for them they will dwell on it, even if other things worked out for them. They think, "why couldn't I have done it better... I wish I could do it over again THEN I would get it right." An ISTJ has a poor . They have difficulty changing their old ways and discovering new possibilities. They like a certain way of thinking and will stick with that way as long as it works. They too can make bad choices, but that might be do to a poor evaluation of the situation than to a lack of foresight.

ESTJ

ISTJ

Hope this helps.

[Expat]

I'm having a few problems with the ESTJ vs ISTJ distinction.

Her hidden agenda seems to me much more ESTJ rather than ISTJ.

In addition, one of my friends fits the ISTJ characteristics much better - also in terms of the hidden agenda - and they're not the same type in my opinion.

Therefore I'd be inclined to type her as ESTJ, except for this -- if I was thinking only of introverted vs extroverted persons, I'd have no doubts in calling her an introvert - as, indeed, she regards herself.

I know that the introvert/extrovert distinction is more complicated in socionics than MBTI.

Comments?

[science as magic]

Can you elaborate further on where you saw
"NJ not NP"
"SP not NP"
"Se Ti Fi Te Ni" ?

Sure:

Nj/Np:

I just asked myself if she was N would she have it as dominant or auxiliary and it was clear it would be aux. This is one of many things that made me think Tj,

As for the rest I think it'd be better if I did it a bit at a time:

- she’s very successful in her field – she’s a journalist – and she has basically focused on her professional rather than personal life.

T.

-she is comfortable with exercising power over subordinates

S but I came to this conclusion after an "overview" of her whole personality.

– she has fired people over matters of principle

Ti-Fi not Te-Fe. IxxJs tend to be more "principled" or to put it from the Te perspective "unrealistic" about things like this in business situations.

– but her ultimate goal, professionally, is not to become a editor but, rather, to become an independent free-lance writer. She has no ambition to become the boss of other people.

This made me think N when I first read it which is what led me to try to decide certain Nj/Np questions and so forth.

-However, she finds it very stressful to be micro-managed by a boss whom she doesn’t respect at all. She prefers to do her own thing with as little supervision as possible.

After reading the whole post I might say this merely correlates to introversion.

-She’s very concerned about, and proud of, her professional standing and ethics, and shocked when she discovers that colleagues have faked news.

She is most certainly T this corresponds more to an Fi role function than an Fe one.

- she's perfectly able to interview strangers on the street but does not particularly enjoy that part of the job.

More introversion.

-She very clearly plans her time separating work from pleasure. She would welcome me into her house, then ask me to wait in the living room as she finished some work. After that, she’d be ready for a night of passion and extremely annoyed if work interfered.

The thing I noticed most was the extreme Jness in the MB sense. This made me think of mostly Js and ESTp as type probabilities.

-She felt generally far more comfortable with planning her day, her next month, and her future than with improvising – felt really stressed when she couldn’t plan ahead, and disliked changing plans in the last moment (even though her job required that very often).

-She intensively dislikes getting spontaneous phone calls. She prefers to receive a text message asking when she’d have time for a call. Likewise, she prefers to ask in advance when she could call. But then she’s happy to talk for hours.

J.

-She has absolutely no interest in the kind of girly small talk, “what precisely have I done today” or “what clothes she was wearing” etc. She’s perfectly comfortable with “awkward silences” and dislikes pointless remarks made only to break them.

IxTj.

-She’s able to talk for hours, though – but always on matters of substance: the past, the plans for the future, problems at work, politics.

SJ.

-she has a limited circle of very close friends to whom she’s very loyal

Introvert.

Her friends regularly consult her on their relationship problems, which she analyzes in a cool and detached way, not hesitating to criticize her friends.

IxTJ.

-She’s constantly trying to improve her skills with courses.

Yeah this does sound Ne I admit and causes some trouble but we all know types don't fit into absolute molds.

Her next ambition is to learn how to play the piano.

J.

-She has a very intense sex drive, with masochistic tendencies.

Se not Si.

-she cares a lot about eating good and expensive food, either cooking herself or going to expensive restaurants.

I can't quite explain but Se. For one thing Si types tend not to care how expensive food is and delta STs can be major cheapasses and view spending too much on food as a waste of money.

Since she tends to put on weight, she then compensates by intense physical activity.

J and S as aux. Si types seem more likely to make excercise a continuous part of their life if they do it in that weird continuous peaceful holistic Si sort of way. Se types seem to view excercise more as a way to get their body in shape so they can extract from it whatever they need while Si does it for the good of the body kind of like an independent organism. How does this correlate? Se types seem more likely to intense vigorous bouts of excercise in that "rough" manner that Se has.

When she’s travelling and can’t go to the gym, she puts on weight, which depresses her very much. However, she finds it very difficult to go on a diet, even when she can’t go the gym.

Yeah this sounds like Si but it can just be I and S which is what I think it is.

-Most of her books are non-fiction;

Maybe S maybe J.

- she doesn't laugh very often but when she does, it is with a loud, spontaneous and (to me) unpleasant laugh.

This is more like ISTj than ESTj and I took it into consideration in the list of associations.

-She’d tell me not to wear a particular shirt and then change her mind, saying “I was being stupid, wear that shirt if you like it”.

STj feels bad with role function apologizes.

-She’s very hard on herself when she thinks she’s made a blunder.

This could be a Ti-Fi thing not an Ni thing.

-Usually she has a façade of self-confidence, but she’s also very self-critical. In private, she makes lots of self-deprecating remarks (not joking): “how can you put up with someone like me” etc.

Again could be related to Fi.

-She’s full of guilt about things she’s done in the past.

Again Ti-Fi.

-She made a enormous blunder in her career when she thought she could make her boss back off a bit by threatening to resign – she totally miscalculated her own bargain power and the boss’s reaction, something I could see clearly at the time.

ST.

When I originally read your post I tried to think of all the types that your description could fit.

I thought INTj, ENxj, ESTp, ISxj. I tried to do values of the person and they seemed more Ti-Fe than Te-Fi and Se-Ni than Ne-Si. I tried to type "consciousness" which was definitely Ne-Se not Si-Ni and Ti-Fi fit with that and worked with what I was thinking about the above mentioned Ti-Fi material. Then I tried to do temperaments: of NJ, NP, SP, and SJ, it seemed SJ-NJ > NP-SP, NJ > NP, SP > NP. Also on ST, NF, NT, SF it was ST all the way. S > N, T > F, J > P. I did all of the temperament permutations on my head but I won't write them here (it would take too long) and they all turned out similar results which said ISTj.

Lastly you said you thought she was INTj at first. Do you see what I mean? I think she is an ISTj of what some would call the Ti subtype. I think that is what made you think INTj. ESTjs are rarely mistaken for INTjs but ISTjs often are.

Just some thoughts.

[Expat]

Pedro,

Thank you very much for the thorough reply.

Further thoughts:

Lastly you said you thought she was INTj at first. Do you see what I mean? I think she is an ISTj of what some would call the Ti subtype. I think that is what made you think INTj. ESTjs are rarely mistaken for INTjs but ISTjs often are.

Yes. I thought she was INTj at first due to some of the same things you noticed, following MBTI (I did not know enough about socionics), such as this:

The thing I noticed most was the extreme Jness in the MB sense. This made me think of mostly Js and ESTp as type probabilities.

There was never any doubt in my mind as to the Jness in the MB sense - very obvious.

The same regarding your remarks on I and T - again, in an MB sense.

As for N, I guess I paid too much attention to her plans for the future and broad range of interests (the latter emphasized by her profession). But ST characteristics were visible, only I overlooked them, even as they puzzled me - in particular her lack of foresight, most clearly in the resignation threat thing. Also, she was concerned about things like small details in table manners and house furnishing - not very typical of INTj.

A few questions:

Expat wrote:
-"She has a very intense sex drive, with masochistic tendencies. "


Se not Si.

Why? Because of the masochist bit?

As I said above, following MB I'd have little doubt in call her an introvert due to those points you highlighted, but I thought Rocky made some good points about ESTj, assuming that an ESTj woman could also behave - and see herself as - an introvert.

-she cares a lot about eating good and expensive food, either cooking herself or going to expensive restaurants.

I can't quite explain but Se. For one thing Si types tend not to care how expensive food is and delta STs can be major cheapasses and view spending too much on food as a waste of money.

I confess I don't follow you - so ESTjs tend to be cheaper on food than ISTjs?

Also, I don't know how much weight one should give to this, but while I can clearly see her having an ESTj hidden agenda, I can't see that for ISTj.

I do know that nobody fits any type perfectly or clearly.

One last thought -- she has depressive tendencies. Every type is subject to this, of course, but while I can see her becoming depressive under stress I can't see her becoming passive-aggressive.

Thanks again.

By the way -- the relationship ended in a very bad and, to me, confusing and puzzling manner. Since I actually thought we might eventually get married, I'm trying to understand better what kind of person she is and what she might be thinking. After figuring her out as ST some things do make more sense.

[science as magic]

It's probably be best to ignore that food comment as many STs are cheap lol for various reasons...

Anyway, let me ask you this. If someone were to talk to your girlfriend about new possibilities and so forth how would she respond?

ESTjs are cautious but willing to hear what the thing is about and so forth. One thing I was recently talking with my ISTj friend about was the possibility of a quantum computer being made soon and he basically said, "Pff, I'll believe it when I see it." Basically dismissing it as hypothetical nonsense. ESTjs are a lot more receptive to new possibilities like that. Whereas ISTjs are more geared towards seeking out "vision."

[Expat]

Well, we'd never have precisely this kind of conversation since I'm an engineer and she's a journalist -- but in general I'd have to say that she's probably not that receptive.

I think I'll have to decide on her being an ISTJ. She remains an introvert, despite being in an extrovert's profession, and she has no ambition to be boss over others, which I'd think is not very ESTJ-like. I don't think she's a "typical" ISTJ as some other people I know, and I think Rocky made good points, but on the whole I think ISTJ is more likely.

Something I thought of -- I identify easily as INTJ. However, at work, when I'm in situations of having to solve things quickly and depend on others whom I have to motivate and lead, I can resemble an ENTJ. Perhaps her job also makes her resemble an ESTJ at times? Does that make sense?

[science as magic]

I don't see how that would affect the hidden agenda however.

Yesterday I had a conversation with an ESTj who is very intelligent and with whom I spoke about the possibilities that will become realities over the next century with regards to bodily modifying humans and so forth and he had no trouble talking about the issue. We spoke about what we should think about such issues as genetic splicing of human DNA with animals/plants/etc, robotic modification of the human body, and manipulation of animals to give them the thinking ability of humans and the implications of those things. He responded to what I was talking about instead of dismissing it as outlandish and whatever because that is geared towards his hidden agenda. Also this guy nevers does ANYTHING that he is not great at, hidden agenda =s perfection? you bet your ass it does. An ISTj on the other hand would not AVOID whatever they are unskilled at but would drive themselves to become better at it I imagine. Just some more things to think about.

[Expat]

Also this guy nevers does ANYTHING that he is not great at, hidden agenda =s perfection? you bet your ass it does. An ISTj on the other hand would not AVOID whatever they are unskilled at but would drive themselves to become better at it I imagine. Just some more things to think about.

Well, if that is how the ESTj hidden agenda works, then it's settled - she's ISTj as she does exactly that - trying to become better at what she's unskilled at, be it sports, languages, music, etc.

But I had thought that this need to improve herself was precisely what the hidden agenda was about - to achieve perfection?

[science as magic]

No that is the ESTj hidden agenda. They like to appear perfect but often do not develop the capability because they know they are bad at doing it on their own so instead they try to develop perfection in things they are naturally good at and avoid developing new skills. For example the ESTj I know is great at almost every board game, card game, and sport I have ever seen him play but occasionally he will refuse to play some sort of game and no one really knows why. I think it is because he knows he hasn't "perfected" his abilities in that activity so he avoids it until he masters it. But the thing about ESTjs is I suspect they would get really embarassed if you pointed this out to them esp. in front of other people.

ISTjs seek "vision." This leads them to be attracted to people/places that see life in an epic sort of way kind of. They like the idea of life being this grand unfolding story where they can play their part.

But the thing is neither of these things are wholly conscious. If you asked an xSTj "Which of these is more like you?" they would deny both most likely. It is like asking an xNxJ if they are more of a hedonist or attracted to force, the question doesn't really work because Se and Si can both be hedonistic and forceful and because the xNxJ doesn't see themselves as being attracted to those things per se. Instead you have to gauge what they are attracted to Ne or Ni. Learn what Ne and Ni mean then see which of those your former gf was attracted to.

ISTjs are attracted to people, things, and ideas that have a future and are "going somewhere." But this can be easily confused with an xSTjs natural method of planning for things in general.

ESTjs are attracted to new crazy possibilities (though they temper that with their logic).

Think about it this way would your former gf enjoy hanging out with a crazy idea filled ENFp or a more quiet "mystical" INFp?

I still suspect she is ISTj though no matter what you answer just because of the introverted way you described her and the whole mess of Ti-Fi in her. It is way easier to type someone by their strong functions than by their weak ones generally.

[Expat]

Pedro,

As to the xNFP question, I really can't say but I do suspect she'd find an INFP less annoying.

Anyway, as I said before, especially after your description of the hidden agenda, I'm definitely inclined to type her as an ISTj.

the whole mess of Ti-Fi in her

That's an understatement.

Pedro and Rocky, thanks again for your input - it was really helpful and helped me to understand a few things.