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Thread: Can you help? Am I ENFp or INFp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    mb LII

    love is the union of minds/souls when the borders between the individs become small. the own Self becomes below united We
    Thanks for your input. I started looking into Thinking types and LII is one of the possibilities.
    I think I need to read thoroughly on all the types and then see which one rings most true in its essence.

    I just wonder now. Should I go by functions or by descriptions?
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Should I go by functions or by descriptions?
    You should take into account all basic theory, including IR effects with people of known types. Only when all fits good then you mb sure in your type. Not lesser.

    8 functions and dichotomies is more core theory - it has higher weight. General types descriptions are secondary and more blury, but you should clearly see [at the final] that one of types fits you significantly better than other types. You should feel it as the most yours and notice where you differ from an average. When you study the typing you see people of different types and such understand the types better, - you'll come to own type step by step.

    Reinin's dichotomies mb ignored - they are baseless.
    From model A as useful is: strong/weak functions, valued/nonvalued. The other is more doubtful and harder to be noticed on the practice.

    There is my IR test (it needs an update due to some broken links but mb used). You may try it for IR effects. But real people near you (with _correct_ types), impressions from them, - is more important.

    In the choice between IEE and IEI - IEE is more possible. Among 4 Ne types I'd recommend to seek, at first.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    You should take into account all basic theory, including IR effects with people of known types. Only when all fits good then you mb sure in your type. Not lesser.

    8 functions and dichotomies is more core theory - it has higher weight. General types descriptions are secondary and more blury, but you should clearly see [at the final] that one of types fits you significantly better than other types. You should feel it as the most yours and notice where you differ from an average. When you study the typing you see people of different types and such understand the types better, - you'll come to own type step by step.

    Reinin's dichotomies mb ignored - they are baseless.
    From model A as useful is: strong/weak functions, valued/nonvalued. The other is more doubtful and harder to be noticed on the practice.
    Okay, thanks for all of this info. Sounds logical to me. I perhaps jumped ahead out of eagerness to learn all about just a couple of types that I considered for myself instead of learning about everything basic in the first place. Welp, there's still time to correct that!

    There is my IR test (it needs an update due to some broken links but mb used). You may try it for IR effects. But real people near you (with _correct_ types), impressions from them, - is more important.
    Hey, that test was very interesting to take! I grabbed a couple of glimpses of all the videos included and after a moment of debating, came to the conclusion that my top faves would have to be:
    ESFj/ESE - I enjoyed how stable but energetic they were at the same time, and they looked as if they had so much of this combo in them that they could just share it and spread it all over their surroundings. I wish there were more than just two working videos for men of this type, though, two vids were a bit scarce for grasping the general idea of this type.
    INFj/EII - they mesmerized me. Very attractive men. Kinda want to meet each one and talk with them at length to get a better understanding of them (this happens to me sometimes and I usually leave disillusioned when all the mysteries go away ).
    ENFJ/EIE - they look warm and very considerate of others but so much fun at the same time. Didn't look very bright to me though . Which ultimately didn't really matter! (Sorry about that judgment.)
    INFp/IEI - so soothing! They look like they would be very accomodating and able to offer great understanding without being imposing and judgmental.

    I also liked INTj/LII but more like... they're such sweet children, slightly lost in the world, I want to hug them and tell them they'll be alright. Very warm feelings from me.

    In the choice between IEE and IEI - IEE is more possible. Among 4 Ne types I'd recommend to seek, at first.
    When I made your test, I noticed my strong negative reaction to IEE, to my surprise. I didn't have this strong a reaction to any other type (except INTp who were just... eww. So disheveled. Kinda scary at that). I wonder what that means. They annoyed me so much. They all looked like they were desperately calling for my attention and/or sympathy, like they needed me to see them and only them. I saw so much faking in them it disturbed me. This could be related to the fact that I saw my old boyfriend in their expressions. Or this could be that I'm in strong denial about myself, if I'm indeed one of them . But I'm pretty convinced that I do and I like myself a lot and I'm pretty aware of the way that I am, so there's that.

    After watching these videos, I can't see IEI for me, I'm definitely not that nice and flowy like they are.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon
    Kinda want to meet each one and talk with them at length to get a better understanding of them (this happens to me sometimes and I usually leave disillusioned when all the mysteries go away
    Lol, a good summary of Fi-creative Ne-lead. =)

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    Romanticizing people you've never actually met before as these otherworldly, intetesting beings but then having your expectations fall flat on their butt after you're disappointed by the first conversation with them, realizing that it's mmmmaybe not exactly as you hoped it would be?

    Sign me up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Lol, a good summary of Fi-creative Ne-lead. =)
    Did you mean that about my remark? Sorry, you confused me there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumes View Post
    Romanticizing people you've never actually met before as these otherworldly, intetesting beings but then having your expectations fall flat on their butt after you're disappointed by the first conversation with them, realizing that it's mmmmaybe not exactly as you hoped it would be?

    Sign me up.
    Hmm. No. Romanticizing people you've met and refusing to see that you're disappointed by them and working hard to make things better because it's life and nothing's perfect and you know it. Holding those ideals high for years (I mean like 6 years or 10 years) only to have scales fall off your eyes after too much has happened and you can't ignore reality any longer. Leaving because you finally see what's good for you, and doing so with a feeling of sadness more than anything else (little to no anger and resentment) but most of all, with a strong belief that you're doing the right thing and are on the right track. That's more like what I've been doing. And I mean that about real relationships as well as platonic/unrequited ones.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
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    You've beat me to it. Longest I went for was two-ish years and I didn't even leave willingly, it was the other person who did.

    And yeah, when I said "romanticizing" it was more in the "idealizing" sense.
    This is something I experience with strangers and people I don't know too well; I want to take a bite from everyone (not literally, ew) and get to meet everyone but I sort of fail in the initiating contact department.
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    I mean, in relationships I'm like "I made this decision to be with you. I'm going to follow through. I'm willing to go through a lot of things even though I might and will be disappointed along the way. It's a responsibility I've taken upon myself to make this relationship work, even if I don't like it too much anymore. I'll try to make it the best it can be. And I'll keep doing that until I make sure it's not possible to make it better. I won't leave you until I'm 120% sure I've exhausted myself and my resources to make us work. Beyond that point, I will leave you because I can't give you anything anymore and you can't give me anything anymore. That's when you're better of without me and I'm better off without you. It makes sense to leave. Let's not waste anymore of our time on earth and let's not play pretend anymore --that would be the biggest waste."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Did you mean that about my remark? Sorry, you confused me there!
    Yes. I've heard what you said repeated many times by IEEs I've known in the past, so that I'd say it's almost a trademark of theirs.

    From the outside perspective on this, I see a passing fascination with various people until the novelty wears off for them. Seems like only very hard nuts to crack keep their interest for a long time. =)

    (Not referring to committed relationships btw, just interesting people they might meet)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumes View Post
    You've beat me to it. Longest I went for was two-ish years and I didn't even leave willingly, it was the other person who did.
    I certainly hope for your own sake that you're reasonable like that and don't drag along a relationship that's already dead . Altho I do get how hard it could be to acknowledge the reality of death of a relationship to a N-strong person.

    And yeah, when I said "romanticizing" it was more in the "idealizing" sense.
    This is something I experience with strangers and people I don't know too well; I want to take a bite from everyone (not literally, ew) and get to meet everyone but I sort of fail in the initiating contact department.
    I see. Personally, I have no expectations of strangers. I'm wary of them but will let them be who they are and will be nice to them so that they can open up and let me see who they are. Then I'll decide if I like them or not. No disappointments there, becasue there were no expectations in the first place. It did take me some time to get to this place, that's true. I used to be terribly scared that I'd make a bad first impression on someone. Which meant I did idealize them in some twisted way or at least I symbolically, in my head, gave them enough power over me to feel judged by them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Yes. I've heard what you said repeated many times by IEEs I've known in the past, so that I'd say it's almost a trademark of theirs.

    From the outside perspective on this, I see a passing fascination with various people until the novelty wears off for them. Seems like only very hard nuts to crack keep their interest for a long time. =)

    (Not referring to committed relationships btw, just interesting people they might meet)
    Hmm, I'm not sure how to answer that besides the way I already did in my previous comments to Plumes. Not saying what you're writing about is untrue. Maybe it's just that I only meet hard nuts to crack . Sometimes definitely can feel that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I certainly hope for your own sake that you're reasonable like that and don't drag along a relationship that's already dead . Altho I do get how hard it could be to acknowledge the reality of death of a relationship to a N-strong person.
    I refer to that friendship as "The friendship that could (but shouldn't have happened)" nowadays. It was bad, bad, bad. The wrong circumstances, the wrong people, the wrong time. Everything went wrong and looking back at the messages I've exchanged with that person now feels embarrassing because I've been huge prick towards them back then. It's perfectly understandable they chose to walk away-- They weren't exactly pristine and flawless themselves, not in the slightest, and the fallout was due to how much we clashed. But I never really admitted things are wrong because, in my perception, /they weren't/ it was "nothing that I can't overcome" in a friendship at that time.

    How wrong I was, lmao.

    AAAnyway, it seems like me and @squark were talking about, just like they said, interesting people that you could meet, not committed relationships. You lured me into that territory but i can't really complain hah.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumes View Post
    I refer to that friendship as "The friendship that could (but shouldn't have happened)" nowadays. It was bad, bad, bad. The wrong circumstances, the wrong people, the wrong time. Everything went wrong and looking back at the messages I've exchanged with that person now feels embarrassing because I've been huge prick towards them back then. It's perfectly understandable they chose to walk away-- They weren't exactly pristine and flawless themselves, not in the slightest, and the fallout was due to how much we clashed. But I never really admitted things are wrong because, in my perception, /they weren't/ it was "nothing that I can't overcome" in a friendship at that time.

    How wrong I was, lmao.
    I was in a very similar situation/relationship years ago. I remember how embarrassed I was when I read some of my messages to the other person. It's a good thing through which we grow, though. And all those relationships we go through --they help with that process of growth. If you didn't write these things and didn't read them afterwards and didn't experience that embarrassment, you probably would not have had any reason to review your behaviour and change it to better suit who you want to be/present to the world. So, in a way, this relationship did happen and something good came out of it. Even if it felt bad.

    AAAnyway, it seems like me and @squark were talking about, just like they said, interesting people that you could meet, not committed relationships. You lured me into that territory but i can't really complain hah.
    Doesn't that happen to anyone tho? I don't necessarily idealize people. Some I just like because of, say, their looks, but when they open their mouth to speak, I get this 'okay, I'm sorry you just did that!' but it doesn't mean I'm disappointed. When I said disillusioned, I meant, well... having an image shattered. Which is something I am okay with because it was just my idea of a person. That's not exactly the same for me as disappointment which infers feelings of being misled or lied to --that's what happens when someone promises me something and doesn't carry it through/does the opposite thing/forgets etc. Probably just a difference in personal definitions and distinctions.
    Last edited by ToTheMoon; 01-13-2019 at 04:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    ESFj/ESE - I enjoyed how stable but energetic they were at the same time, and they looked as if they had so much of this combo in them that they could just share it and spread it all over their surroundings. I wish there were more than just two working videos for men of this type, though, two vids were a bit scarce for grasping the general idea of this type.
    INFj/EII - they mesmerized me. Very attractive men. Kinda want to meet each one and talk with them at length to get a better understanding of them (this happens to me sometimes and I usually leave disillusioned when all the mysteries go away ).
    ENFJ/EIE - they look warm and very considerate of others but so much fun at the same time. Didn't look very bright to me though . Which ultimately didn't really matter! (Sorry about that judgment.)
    INFp/IEI - so soothing! They look like they would be very accomodating and able to offer great understanding without being imposing and judgmental.
    Based on this - LII seems as possible: both base Fe among favorite types. EII - neutral, IEI - orderer (they are expected to give a sympathy). Against ILE - EIE at the top.

    > When I made your test, I noticed my strong negative reaction to IEE, to my surprise. I didn't have this strong a reaction to any other type (except INTp who were just... eww. So disheveled. Kinda scary at that).

    This fits to LII possibility as IEE are subrevisie. ILI are quasi-identity - antipathy is possible.
    All that comparably reduces the chances for IEE. Also 2 betas at the top reduces the chances for being delta.

    On the forum is @FarDraft - LII (as I think his type) which assignes himself ILI. Mb it would be interesting for you both to interact in pm - how much of similarity in thinking you'd notice in each other. He did IR test and also got both base Fe at top 4, and before that I assumed LII for him based on the videointerview.

    Try to identify people near IRL. This will give the final info in case you'll notice good fiting to one of the types. Also this will show that you got the typing skills on the initial level. Use intuitive impressions from people and what you know about their behavior - the both ways (N and T) are useful.
    If you'll get the prove for LII, then IR test have worked good on you.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Based on this - LII seems as possible: both base Fe among favorite types. EII - neutral, IEI - orderer (they are expected to give a sympathy). Against ILE - EIE at the top.

    > When I made your test, I noticed my strong negative reaction to IEE, to my surprise. I didn't have this strong a reaction to any other type (except INTp who were just... eww. So disheveled. Kinda scary at that).

    This fits to LII possibility as IEE are subrevisie. ILI are quasi-identity - antipathy is possible.
    All that comparably reduces the chances for IEE. Also 2 betas at the top reduces the chances for being delta.

    On the forum is @FarDraft - LII (as I think his type) which assignes himself ILI. Mb it would be interesting for you both to interact in pm - how much of similarity in thinking you'd notice in each other. He did IR test and also got both base Fe at top 4, and before that I assumed LII for him based on the videointerview.

    Try to identify people near IRL. This will give the final info in case you'll notice good fiting to one of the types. Also this will show that you got the typing skills on the initial level. Use intuitive impressions from people and what you know about their behavior - the both ways (N and T) are useful.
    If you'll get the prove for LII, then IR test have worked good on you.
    @ToTheMoon I'd be up to PM if you wanted. I'm still open to the possibility that I'm LII (I have had some arguments with @Sol about this), but I relate far more to gamma values than alpha ones. It would probably be a useful, and perhaps interesting, conversation for both of us.
    ----- FarDraft, 2019 | 5w6 538 sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Based on this - LII seems as possible: both base Fe among favorite types. EII - neutral, IEI - orderer (they are expected to give a sympathy). Against ILE - EIE at the top.

    > When I made your test, I noticed my strong negative reaction to IEE, to my surprise. I didn't have this strong a reaction to any other type (except INTp who were just... eww. So disheveled. Kinda scary at that).

    This fits to LII possibility as IEE are subrevisie. ILI are quasi-identity - antipathy is possible.
    All that comparably reduces the chances for IEE. Also 2 betas at the top reduces the chances for being delta.
    Thanks again for your input, @Sol.
    It's interesting that some people see LII for me off the bat (I had someone write me a pm with that assessment as well).

    On the forum is @FarDraft - LII (as I think his type) which assignes himself ILI. Mb it would be interesting for you both to interact in pm - how much of similarity in thinking you'd notice in each other. He did IR test and also got both base Fe at top 4, and before that I assumed LII for him based on the videointerview.
    Thanks, I'll contact him.

    Try to identify people near IRL. This will give the final info in case you'll notice good fiting to one of the types. Also this will show that you got the typing skills on the initial level. Use intuitive impressions from people and what you know about their behavior - the both ways (N and T) are useful.
    If you'll get the prove for LII, then IR test have worked good on you.
    I was able to identify a couple of people I know in real life while watching your videos --the impressions were quite striking. It's interesting how this ability grows in a person over the course of time. I was not able to consciously see any signals coming from people about a month or two ago when I started seriously reading about mbti/socionics, not even in the videos. Now I can identify some things from time to time. Exciting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    @ToTheMoon I'd be up to PM if you wanted. I'm still open to the possibility that I'm LII (I have had some arguments with @Sol about this), but I relate far more to gamma values than alpha ones. It would probably be a useful, and perhaps interesting, conversation for both of us.
    Hi and yes, please! It sounds like our cases are very similar. Write me when you can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Now I can identify some things from time to time. Exciting.
    I was sceptical to Socionics until the moment of understanding of own type and seeing that the theory describes good my experience. It was exciting to get new knowledge. And partly disappointing as people appeared to be limited and affected by types.
    It's very hard to feel good in close relations with bad IR people, for example. We often do not choose with who to deal - on jobs, among relatives, etc. So we are limited in the use and comfort in relations with them. We may get romantic attraction and even marry people in bad IR or not good IR with them. I got feelings to a conflictor girl some before reading about Socionics. Meanwhile other accidental people become very meaningful for us - but it's a chance which you may do not get. I had a luck of geting a semi-duality girl in my school class - I had feelings to her and mb that was mutual. And had the experience of what to loose the one with good IR, which one has become emotionally important for you - you get a many monthes depression and later establish psyche state below of what was with the external inspiration.
    For the most people here Socionics has lesser personal meaning. They had no IR effects so meaningful in their life on practice. Besides higher interest, the situation allowed me to understand the types better too. Then I developed in this understanding for many years and tried to share by this understanding with others. Find issues and obstacles which prevent people from correct types and typing. Find better methods. I see Socionics as the way to improve peoples lives and to help make lesser mistakes, as I know the difference.

    Some time after own typing I had a talk with a Jung's follower. My position was similar to MBT one - that types allow people to use their strong traits. While my opponent accented on that types are bad, psyche's distortions. I thought about the said, recalled what was written by Jung in "Psychology types". And either met or recalled the statistic of the expression of dichotomies among people - that more of people have dichotomies near equal state, but not tend having them at any other position alike 60-70% what some typology authors supposed. And I've accepted the point of my opponent.
    Sure it's reasonably to use more the most developed traits. But a type is _also_ a distortion leading to psyche issues, while weak functions operate below social norms. Hence a duality is not only a way to find easier for you people, but also a way to improve in you what is weak and mb to reduce the functional imbalance. It's the point where Jung and Socionics approaches unite.

    The task is to unite it better, - to use the duality effects deeper and wider. Before Socionics I read a book from Internet (the real printing was 300 pcs only) about love by Dobroslavovich/Altynov. He described this feeling and relations idealisticly, but I've got a trust - as felt he described the real experience and impressions in it. And that was wonderful experience which people may to have. He thought it needs to find a special, only your woman to get the needed feeling. I thought this feeling or state is mb possibly to create (or to enforce the existing) with anyone. That conflictor girl - I had feelings to her to that moment already and now I knew what feelings should to be. I have an esoterical inclination, it's inborn - from the ancestors and this just enters in your life - you may use it or to reject, develop or leave as is - it just lives with you. The part of this inclination is the abbility to operate by your imagination and psyche in trance states, what allow to do some things (alike telepathy). This mb used to influence on own psyche and mb psyche of other people by alike hypnosis techniques. I had a girl and a task - and I did it. The feeling alike I read about. The problem was in the girl - hard for me psyche to unite with, hard to establish good relations - it all looked too hard, strange negative components in the state, not the best relation to me from her (it could be fixed by efforts) - I expected some other. So I've decided to leave her as there was no mutual feeling compared of mine to her and that was against what should to be as I thought in that time. I've stalked with new problem - types and their limitations. This leaded me to Socionics which explained the situation and shaw a solution - the people which are much easier and potentionally more productive to deal with. I knew such people exist - the other semiduality girl, she influenced differently on me; I knew other good IR people in my life and noticed the similar.
    As the way to improve weak regions of people and reduce type's expression mb the duality and love relations. Duals have as strong the regions weak in you. Meanwhile the psyche of duals (and good IR people) is easier to unite with, they are easier to love. Love state enforces the mutual influence between peoples' psyche. This is mb my addition to typology approach, - the explaining of what love state is and how to make it stronger. The aim from Jung, the duality from Augustinavichiute, and I've found the possible way to unite them.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    ...
    Thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I appreciate your openness. I think I we see these things similarly to some extent, and then we don't. I like the dynamic take on psyche and the belief that it can grow and develop, and that we can work on our weaknesses as well as our strengths. I also believe that there's really nothing wrong with having a weakness and not making effort to work on it, if one doesn't want to. That said, I would rather concentrate on developing my psyche on my own, while trying to ensure beneficial environment for me as a person and acknowledging that the environment matters a lot too.

    I also can't help but wonder what you mean by love. My personal take is very simple and grounded in reality --it's just enjoying a relation with another person on a (hopefully semi-) daily basis. Sure, as I grow older, I hope I choose my partners more consciously and for the good feelings they bring me rather than for other criteria that I used to base my decisions upon. But it's not in my nature anymore to try and find a balance for my own issues in another person. Not that I would see it as wrong for somebody else. I just don't see it a correct for me. I hope to be a self-sufficient person who's responsible for themselves and rooted in themselves, and okay with all areas of themselves, weaknesses included --and I hope to find another person who is like that as well. Then we can decide to meet in the middle when we want to and choose to. That act of continuous choosing of one person is love for me. So here's where our views diverge, as I understand it. Which is good. Always glad to read another point of view.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I also believe that there's really nothing wrong with having a weakness
    Having weak functions, a weakness leads to lesser usefulness and higher harm, to lesser efficiency. So it's evidently better to have all functions on strong level - for you and other people. The other problems of a type are: inner conflict (neurotisation) and bad IR issues.

    > That said, I would rather concentrate on developing my psyche on my own, while trying to ensure beneficial environment for me as a person and acknowledging that the environment matters a lot too.

    Jung's type point on one of ways of psyche improving for your use and for other people. To do it purely "on your own" means to ignore all existing knowledge, what is doubtful to be good approach. To develop in weak functions regions is doubtful without a dual which is strong there, you need an expert to help and teach you. In particular skills - mb without a duality, but not to develop a whole function.

    > I also can't help but wonder what you mean by love. My personal take is very simple and grounded in reality

    My understanding of love is not hard and real too. There is no other love, besides united state and collectivism.
    You said about to be open - this means no borders and hence two people unite into each other. You partly described by other words the same. If you'll add to this other sense - you'll get inner contradiction in your understanding.
    Individualism and love are incompatible. Individualism is egocentrism, - separating from others, it's hate but not love. In love you loose and disolve your individuality in the united state with other, where for you the interests of other one mean not lesser than your own, unconditional acceptance of other one.
    There is no other love.

    You need a similar experience to understand. It's a pleasant state.
    The example of an attitude to break the borders between 2 people in a pair I've described there. You may think about this as a self-hypnotic technique, but this does more - tunes unconscious links between people too. This may make stronger a feeling which already exist, at least. Do not use in case you have doubts in long and good relations with other one. It's more for marriages, where you take the duty to love, to care, to make other one happy.
    Last edited by Sol; 01-14-2019 at 04:38 PM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Having weak functions, a weakness leads to lesser usefulness and higher harm, to lesser efficiency. So it's evidently better to have all functions on strong level - for you and other people. The other problems of a type are: inner conflict (neurotisation) and bad IR issues.
    I don't think being efficient is a prime priority to me, either in relations with others, or to myself. It's okay to be relaxed and let go and not make an effort and to be lax with myself where I don't feel very confident. When I'm pressing myself in areas where I'm not confident, I become even more inefficient. I have no issue with being myself, weaknesses and all. I have no problem accepting my innate imperfection. Doesn't mean I can't or don't want to develop myself. I just know my boundaries and limits. That's a very liberating thing to know.

    > That said, I would rather concentrate on developing my psyche on my own, while trying to ensure beneficial environment for me as a person and acknowledging that the environment matters a lot too.

    Jung's type point on one of ways of psyche improving for your use and for other people. To do it purely "on your own" means to ignore all existing knowledge, what is doubtful to be good approach.
    Like I said, I want to focus on myself while acknowledging what is happening around me. Please don't twist my words.

    > I also can't help but wonder what you mean by love. My personal take is very simple and grounded in reality

    My understanding of love is not hard and real too. There is no other love, besides united state and collectivism.
    You said about to be open - this means no borders and hence two people unite into each other. You partly described by other words the same. If you'll add to this other sense - you'll get inner contradiction in your understanding.
    Individualism and love are incompatible. Individualism is egocentrism, - separating from others, it's hate but not love. In love you loose and disolve your individuality in the united state with other, where for the interests of other mean not lesser than your own.
    There is no other love.
    Okay, that is your opinion and I respect it. Mine is different and it stems from my personal experience in the world. When I was talking about being open with others, I didn't mean having no borders to self. I meant being accepting and curious about what others have to express as their own, unique and separate beings. I can respect the other and see their interests as as important and valuable as my own without losing myself in another person. Unity with others and collusion (sorry, there's no English version of this article but you can use google translate) is a very toxic thing for me to be in, and I have learned through my therapy that I lose myself completely when I strive to unite that way with others, which comes very easy to me, unfortunately. This is all part of my personal history into which I will not delve on a public forum and with a stranger.

    I have no need to quarrell with you so I will just leave it here and I would appreciate it if you would not try to discuss this more. It unsettles me and draws attention away from the aim of this topic which is searching for my socionics type. Thank you.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    This was the most self aware and honest Delta NF self-spoof I've seen hahah, well done. In the MBTI community there's a running joke/stereotype, cause there's a TON of NFPs mistyping as NFJs in MBTI, and Your own reasoning largely highlights why.

    That said, I'm glad You're coming to a sense of resolution on the matter, and that the thread's been helpful. I still don't see how You're IEE, that is to say Program Ne over Program Fi, but so be it. I recommend reading the articles on this site on both types, as well as PoLR Ti vs PoLR Se (along with the Program Ne/Fi obviously) for further clarification.

    Gonna reiterate a few things here:

    You said that when You were young that novelty was seen as an attack on Yourself. This doesn't really make any sense for a Program Ne AFAIK. The way it was also experienced so personally as well speaks to Fi. The video lines I transcribed as well:

    ""Valuing myself... is a value.... in itself. Thanks to valuing myself, I can.... be independent of others, of their influence, and I can be safe in myself to connect with others, without the need to, sort of, 'blend' with them. But, that connection is.... incredibly important to me; I mean, without feeling connection to other people, I wither away and die. So, I guess, being close to others, being authentic with others, being able to be open with others, that is what is important to me."

    I'm still adamantly agree with Beautiful Sky. You're an EII. Just my two cents. If You're truly IEE then You'd be IEE-Fi.
    And yet that whole post you responded to made me say: "More PROOF she is ENFp!"

    ENFps are very introverted Extroverts, it has been said.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Want to mention, that to describe people as an environment is an argument to assume T type as rather more possible.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Tothemoon, I wanted to tell you that I read this and, like what I saw of your video, everything about you says ENFp to me! Everything you say I exactly understand and relate to. I feel sure you are ENFp. To explain how I relate to what you say, I am finding it too hard to summarize, and instead have to comment on all you said! So I am going to give that a go here.

    Some folks her are saying INFj for you, but I think not. INFjs often have a very solemn placid face when they aren't flashing a thier beautiful smile at select times (specifically, when there is an actual reason to smile) (This may be a subtype particular to INFj, because I do see differences in more-solemn/less solemn INFj's. Here, Minde would be a more solemn placid everyday face type, like two INFjs I know IRL, while Maritisa, like another INFj I know, seems more smiling). (Probably because they are "I", and they are experiencing-inwardly when their face is not being outgoing and smiley). ENFps tend to project a bit of a smiling face even when they aren't smiling, like you. Also, you have a candid earnestness and sincerity that I associate with ENFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Hi!
    Even the enthusiastic greeting looks ENFp to me! (Other types will do this as well, like ESFj).



    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Warning, long post ahead...
    I have written the same thing here many times. Usually when I am going to analyze something I think or feel about a thing or about my reaction to things. And it's always true to my prediction - long!


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I've been into reading about cognitive functions for a while and am still learning about different approaches and trying to pick a way of understanding things that would suit my inner mental workings best. I generally type as ENFP in different MBTI tests and I was given a NeFi assessment on Cognitive Typology, based on a video I made, and I was pretty much in agreement with typing these until I took the socionics test and it kept turning out INFp. I looked at the mirroring/inverted stacks of both types and then started to read about shadow functions and now I'm totally stuck wondering if I've lived most of my life as an unhealthy ENFp locked in the shadow or if I'm really an INFp/INFJ who is uncharacteristically happy and inviting. I would appreciate any help distinguishing between the two. In my mind, when I read the descriptions of both types, they don't seem that much different at all... but I must be biased.
    I used to test INFp often, and it was often a close second for me (and my original guess for myself). In MBTI, it's helpful to understand what is REALLY meant by I and E. In Socionics, it's helpful to look at Quadra values because it is quite different to be Beta and Delta. See here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...cs-Four-Quadra I think you will find you are Delta, and therefore, ENFp.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Okay, so I'll try to tell you about myself in relation to my view of my functions and how I operate within them.

    I'm definitely an intuitive and a feeler, that much is clear to me.
    That's clear!


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I love company and feel great when I'm around a group of friends from my studies --even years after I graduated, I still am a part of the group and I still know the people who have just started studying. There is some kind of amazing unity and harmony that I feel when I'm with them, that I gravitate towards. It's like the group is giving back to everyone in it, myself included, and that is something I'm a total sucker for. It's like being noticed within a group and not outside of it, which is a rare experience for me and one that I long for.
    That is a good feeling.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Naturally, I love meeting my close friends one-on-one and talking for hours about a specific topic. I'm often consulted for advice by my friends and I've chosen the approach of learning as much as I can about what the person wants to do and then supporting them in making a decision to do it. I try not to impose my personal view too much. I sometimes do (usually when I'm tired of giving help over and over again) and usually don't feel good about it afterwards. Personally, I don't feel at ease with talking about my problems. I usually try to work them out alone, in me head, writing them down or talking them out loud. I can get in a dangerous loop when I have problems and don't reach out for help. At first, I don't notice a problem at all and just keep doing what I'm doing, distracting from it. I will unconsciously withdraw from people and can see just one person or two for weeks or months. I usually get sucked into a passion (like it is now with MBTI/socionics/etc. and I get so lost in my head that I don't notice it when I get to a point when I'm feeling suffocated by my loneliness. I'm then forced to confront the reality of being alone and in a bad place and scared for my life. I then cut myself out even further because at that point I don't believe anyone can help me and I don't really want help from anyone but one idealized person... who isn't there to help me anyway (I seem to always set myself up for that disappointment). To get myself out of that loop, I need a cathartic experience like talking about my feelings to someone (and them not responding usually) which kind of sobers my up and lets me get back to functioning normally, being able to work and see people etc.
    I also love one-on-one with close friends, or anyone. At a party, rather that be in the middle entertaining everyone like my ESE friends, I am active engaged socially as well, but for me it looks quite different because it's one-on-one, and it can get very intense, that private conversation in the middle of a crowd. I am an active listener, and I like to find questions that draw a person out to talking about what they care about, and I love, love, love the wonderful discovery of a person and their uniqueness this way. It's like finding treasures for me, and it's rewarding.

    I also I get consulted for advice and feedback by friends, especially when they are stuck, and I prefer to engage in the same sort of advising that you like - and I think those seeking feedback also do - the kind, like you described, where we find what it is they really desire and I help generate ideas that manifest that. And I am fine with ideas that are rejected because my feeling is that there is a way for them, and I am just joining them in the mystery of finding that way, and if it's the right way, it's one they are all-on-board with.

    I, also, definitely do not feel at ease talking about my problems. That is so very true of me. The only time I am at ease is after I have struggled with it alone, and I've already found a solution or direction and am out of the weeds, or surely on the way out. Also the loop and the withdrawal you describe sounds very familiar to me pertaining to the times I have been stuck. I have never described it that way, but I feel it could be described that way.

    I feel that this "not being at ease talking about my problems" is a manifestation of the difference of Fi use between EII and IEE. All the EII's i know are very in touch and aware of what their feeling reaction is to a thing, even in the moment. I, instead, can be quite unaware. While I am only too acutely that I feel something, very strongly, I know I have not figured out exactly what i am feeling and why. If its anger or annoyance then I try double-hard (and generally succeed!) to hide it, and keep it to MYSELF, til I can get alone and figure it out, and ponder everything related to it. I want to work it out alone, understand my own feelings ALONE, and then I will share. That is how Fi manifests for me (whereas SEE's manifest their Fi quite differently: they do know what they feel, and they feel free to express it right out!). My experience with how I work out feelings fits with a Fi function description for ENFp, too. Also for me, too, in big moments or turning points in my life, it is cathartic to write or talk about my feelings after all that inner figuring. Sometimes I have done that here on this forum, which of course some types find quite boring, but it has been cathartic for me!



    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    When I was younger, I used to be terribly judgmental. I would be very closed off to novel ideas, other points of view and treated them as attacks on myself. I would judge everyone and for just about anything: the way they looked, the clothes they wore, the way they spoke, what they liked... I would also be quite open about those judgments to the extent that some people closer to me started telling me I was nasty and they didn't feel good around me. That prompted me to finally check what I was doing and why I was doing it. I then proceeded to work my way to being able to drop these defense mechanisms and I became much more in harmony with myself and with others. I was always conflict-avoidant but where I used to be judgmental, I switched to being a total people pleaser. I was over-accommodating and matching myself to others without question, just to make sure they accept me. I went overboard with this as well. I'm currently working on balancing myself: having the room to have my own opinions and giving myself the right to voice them when I want to, while still remaining accepting of others and their views.
    I think I may have been more judgmental when I was much younger but I don't remember. I do remember learning many times in my life, through experience, not to judge, always after times I discovered that an original judgment I made on a person was wrong. It's always humbling to be wrong! The most recent time was meeting a woman at work whom I deemed in my mind to be the dullest, most boring person ever. A real drag of a person. But I decided everyone has something interesting and made an effort to talk to this unapproachable dull person more. Many short talks later, we were in a moment where there was more time than usual to talk, and I found she had prematurely lost her husband, very quickly and unexpectedly, to cancer, only months before. They had been unusually close; he was her whole life, and she was simply still grieving and in shock when I met her. So I learned a judging lesson there.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Over the course of my life (I'm currently 33), I have changed my occupation many times. I studied photography and cultural anthropology. I still take photo assignments from time to time but never worked as a photographer full time. I never tried pursuing a career in anthropology. I used to be a graphic designer for about a decade (I learned everything on my own + took a course or two). Then switched to bespoke sewing for a couple of years (again, learned everything on my own + took a course). These artistic pursuits actually drained me and made me feel like an impostor, and working with demanding clients made me emotionally unstable which led to me finally hating the thing I was doing. In between, I was teaching theory of photography in workshops and was tutoring English from time to time, both of which I enjoyed immensely. Then, about a year ago, I finally decided to drop the idea that I have to be creative/artistic for a living and am currently running an online vintage shop and I think this is finally something I can do to sustain myself. Working in retail without direct face-to-face contact with my customers feels liberating and safe, and I can even work with the routine I managed to devise for myself. I normally can never do anything routinely, I get bored very easily and can never see a point of doing the same thing over and over. I work in random bursts of energy.
    You are the perfect age! I passed that perfection a while back... Before I graduated in teaching and started in that field, I also changed my occupation as well as my college major as many times as could possibly be done in the span of time I had to do that in; I wanted to try and consider everything. The obvious field for me was artist (I teach it now), but from the very beginning of even imagining myself in a career I detested the idea of serving my artistic inclinations to fit with the demands made of it. I guess art is for me a creative expression of an artistic vision, and it can be painful to bend it to someone else's vision, or, even more horrible to imagine: spending time creating something that is boring or ugly because I have to. I have always known I could make things to sell, but I can never settle on what to make. I feel I could make anything. What I like is carving clay, or watercolor painting and oil or acrylic painting, chalk pastels, nature-inspired designs, and objects that are both beautiful and useful. Harmonious color, beautiful form, lovely texture, luminous light, lyrical line and judicious use of negative space are all super important to me. I will create art more someday, I know. Right now it's all about teaching, as that is what I have invested in.

    (After time off taking care of my Mom till she died, I considered a change of careers, to a therapist maybe. I would love the challenge and the newness and the learning of plunging into a completely different career. But I realized that in entertaining this I was not looking at our finances realistically, and that actually, financially, what was needed was for someone to pay ME to go to school to get educated in another field. I'd have gladly done that, but alas, it doesn't generally work that way. So I am sticking with what I am educated and certified in already).


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I'm a messy person because I'm not bothered by things being "out of place". I just somehow don't see them. I'm not detail oriented like that. I'm not great with money... was actually living with a long time boyfriend up until a couple months ago and he was earning enough that I didn't have to worry about money at all. I'm now on my own and I'm learning to manage it and am often surprised at how I can't estimate how much I need.
    I could say the same about me but it's a tendency I have worked MUCH to overcome, so some would say I look quite organized. I would say I am a secretly messy person who works like crazy to be organized so it appears as if I am. But my husband knows about my drawers and closets... which also are the focus of my New Year's resolutions... But in order to juggle things in my life including career (one that includes a lot of people and a lot of stuff and the messes young folks make with the stuff), in order to hold it all together and be comfortable being all I am supposed to be in that setting, I have found it necessary for myself and my peace of mind to be extra-organized. I am one of a small minority of tidy and organized art teachers, while most art rooms display marked untidiness. And I have seen (and cleaned) a lot of art rooms.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I often forget about my body needs, especially when I'm occupied with something that interests me: I forget to drink and eat and I don't notice that I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position until the pain is really loud. Never did any sports although I can ride a bike and enjoy it as it allows my mind to wander while there are landscapes changing before my eyes. For the same reason I enjoy hiking or just walking --I can do that for hours and never get tired. I like to experience nice things, though, I love good food (but can do without, I mostly just eat sandwiches when I'm alone because cooking is boring), I love seeing beautiful things and places, I like art, music etc. I usually attach personal meanings to things that I see, sort of like superimposing an idea over the real world, I definitely don't have my two feet firmly planted in the world.
    I am just the same in forgetting about self when I am absorbed/immersed in something that can go on and on and on. I did bits of teams sports (usu.because someone talked me into it) but never shone at them, or had passion (or understanding!) for them. I also always much like bike riding and hiking. But dance was a passion in high school and college, and I long to revive that.



    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    My memory is terrible. I only remember vibes of times, I can rarely remember any details. I started keeping a diary at a young age and still write it to this day. I enjoy writing about my feelings and thoughts and it has recently occured to me that I never write about real-life occurrences, even when they would appear to be important (like breakups, births or deaths in the family etc.).
    Try B12 if you have memory issues. A lozenge is best. Often comes cherry flavored. My memory could be bad, but, it has had to be good, as teaching you have to be on top of everything. In the past, whenever it seemed to be be slipping it was always my signal I was not doing whatever thing last my Naturapath said I needed to be doing, and doing that restored me every time. [Also carbs affect memory very directly; when you feel it is bad on a particular day, recall the carbs you last ate. Since my husband and I have been eating very-low carb/high healthy fat, a complete diet makeover that we have been practising some months now, my memory issues have been none-at-all]. (The brain is fat, and thrives on it.)

    The need to keep my mind sharp all the times was really the primary reason why I turned to naturopaths and holistic practices many years ago. Perhaps IEEs are prone to needing healthy assistance for keeping a sharp mind because our minds are going all the time, and things are upped when you add the Fi.

    Any journals and writing I do, like you, are about my thoughts and feelings, and like you, I also don't write/record important real-life coccurances. My husband, my SLI dual (and you must get to know SLIs!) wrote journals, for years, which was wonderful for me when I met him 5 or so years ago, because I could see how he spent his days and years! He, instead of writing about thoughts and feelings like me, wrote about his real-life occasions and how he spent his days. He wrote a LOT of entries, all very short and factual, unlike mine: long, long entries, and only very sporadic (I wrote only when the notion stuck).


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    When thinking about a problem or learning, I like to see as many points of view as possible at first, to recognize my options, and then to work my way to some synthesis that makes sense to me.
    Me too exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I kind of make categories that have characteristic flavors or vibes and that's how I navigate around them. When new information comes, I check what 'flavor' it has and whether I can add it to some category I already have in my mind, or is it a new category altogether. If so, where does it fit? Which 'flavors' does it borrow from and between which 'vibes' can I place it? That mental map of feelings about things helps me easier access different things at once. I think quickly that way and can easily grasp concepts thanks to that intuitive way my mind works. It's sort of 'oh, this is similar to something I already know, so I can draw from this source to quicker grasp the new data'. It is hard for me to settle on one understanding though, and I like to add to the categories that I make in my head, expanding the whole theory.
    That's like how I think, and even more, it sounds very much like holographic panoramic. See this on that: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko It is also how LII thinks, and you were entertaining the idea of LII for yourself. (But you are WAY too much, "I feel" and "I love" to be LII). Also SLE, INFp's Dual, is Holographic Panoramic. [INFp uses Vortical-Synergetic Cognition, like our Dual, SLI. It's an interesting thinking style, but it's not ours.].

    Phew! That was long! But it would take 4x as long to edit it down, so there it must be. You can see why I did not finish reading at first, I could tell right off it would take a lot to process a response. Basically, I wanted to say, "Me too!" to everything, but did not want to put across that I am "just like you". I don't feel that. But I do feel that you are just the same type as me.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 01-15-2019 at 12:44 AM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Tothemoon, I wanted to tell you that I read this and, like what I saw of your video, everything about you says ENFp to me! Everything you say I exactly understand and relate to. I feel sure you are ENFp. To explain how I relate to what you say, I am finding it too hard to summarize, and instead have to comment on all you said! So I am going to give that a go here.

    ...

    Phew! That was long! But it would take 4x as long to edit it down, so there it must be. You can see why I did not finish reading at first, I could tell right off it would take a lot to process a response. Basically, I wanted to say, "Me too!" to everything, but did not want to put across that I am "just like you". I don't feel that. But I do feel that you are just the same type as me.
    Wow, thank you for this long post, @Eliza Thomason! It's nice to see that someone relates. I do feel like I have a strong ENFp vibe that I give out especially when I'm around people. And, to be honest, that's also the way I see myself --those moments I spend with friends have been the basis for my definition of myself... Turns out when looking for definitions, I match the ENFp one well and then find it very lacking. The ego I described in my OP is a state I can't stay in for a long time and I will disengage from it after a while. A couple of times I went sailing with a bunch of friends, I soon depleted my reserves of extraversion and had to go introvert somewhere. The boat was rather small and with no place to hide, I sort of got irritated whenever someone disturbed my 'solitude', asked to play games with them etc. They were a bit surprised because they didn't know me from this side. So there's that part too. I just very rarely see people for longer periods of time so I rarely have the possibility to notice how I behave. I've just realized that in the past three months that I've been living on my own, I only saw my boyfriend regularly (we don't live together tho) and I met with a friend or a family member maybe once a week or two. I'm totally okay with that. I should mention I work from home and have done so for the last 10 years, so again, no way to test how I behave around people when I have to meet them daily.

    I wonder how you'd see some other parts I wrote about. Those more hidden parts that I'm sure all of us have and maybe to some of us it just doesn't occurr to write about them in our first post? Can I take more of your time? If you don't mind, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. I'll just paste a couple of the descriptions I posted before so you don't have to look.

    ____

    Being more precise about what I mean by harmony
    ...My point about harmony wasn't really about physical, tangible experience (which is actually quite unattainable to myself somehow) but more of the abstract nature of things. I'd say harmony is like illumination, where all aspects of self come together to form an aware and grounded 'me' that can navigate the world in an engaged yet detached manner. Something I sometimes experience and dear me, if I could just stay there for more than a day or two...

    But I think I understand where you're getting the Si vibes from: I gave the example of clothing matching the body in a harmonious way. Which is obviously Si-related. I did that to approximate my idea and I now realize I've failed because I oversimplified in order to not have to use big words and appear pretentious. Again, I'm quite unable to put it into words, but for me, the experience of looking at someone dressed in harmony with their essence is something beyond the tangible, external world. It's spiritual. Like becoming lost in a piece of art, particularly music (because of the time continuum --a person in clothing is not a static item, it's a process). Yes, it is an aesthetic experience, but more so it is spiritual. The best word to describle it that comes to mind would be numinosum.

    ...Aaand I just made myself pretentious in my own eyes.


    About Ne/Ni
    ...
    I generally dislike exploring ideas like 'what would it be like to walk on the Moon?' or 'what superpower would you choose if you could have one?'. Topics like that irk me. There's no connection to reality, or to me personally, I would not be able to experience that so WHY BOTHER THINKING ABOUT IT, YOU'RE WASTING MY TIME. I don't usually get angry at topics of conversation but these mildly irritate me and I see them as childish flights of fancy for some reason. I find that weird because I recognize these are innocent questions and there's nothing wrong with imagining things. But these are just... what's the point? It's not entertaining, it's not interesting, it's gibberish and excessive. (Whenever I a man asks me one of these questions, and that happens a lot to me somehow, I throw up a bit in my mouth.)

    I also dislike it when I talk with my best friend about her problems and at the end of the conversation she says things like 'this could play out in so many ways... the future could bring anything...' and she's very prone to generalizations like that. I mean, if you wanna talk about different scenarios, sure, I can help coming up with them, I have no problem with that, although I think that's just excessive worry generation and bad for you. Again, this irks me. Why would you try to somehow charm the future by trying to predict it? Why not concentrate on things that are currently happening within you and trace them back to things that brought you here and see them for what they are and then make a conscious decision as to what you want to do instead of letting 'the world' happen around you while you just adjust yourself to it? I guess that's my calling for her agency --something we both lack so that's why it irritates me so much .


    Related to another video I made.
    ...My vagueness, I think, often stems from my childish tendency to think that others can easily read me and already know what's in my head, or actually in my heart because I only have this tendency about my feelings (I can easily explain things when it comes to knowledge and don't experience any stress about it if my knowledge is well based). I feel that I have everything written on my face so people know anyway. If they already know, then to explain too much would be excessive and even more embarrassing. It's very awkward for me. Some part of me thinks I'm way more expressive than I really am, and being expressive about my feelings is ungggghhhhh let's just not. Just got an illumination here. Is my PoLR Fe? That would point to ISTp and INTp. Interesting. And not entirely impossible, really, if I think about it from the perspective of: the more I know, the better and more confident I feel but the more I feel, the more confused, afraid and overwhelmed I am (illumination here being mostly this: I have so many feelings all the time but I actually don't feel good with them most of that time!), and always turning to thinking/analyzing to cope.


    This last part I was hoping to get a more general answer to... it's something that makes total sense to me but I don't know how it works within the system of socionics.
    ...
    Hmm, okay, I'm not sure exactly how dynamic socionics is but I was wondering a thing. If a person is focused on developing their lower function and brings it into consciousness, that surely has to translate to the way they appear to others. On the other hand, it doesn't mean the integrated lower function will ever feel as natural and comfortable to the person as their top function(s).

    Side note: how do we actually judge our own function stacking and development? We need to use a function to do that so which one is it?
    Let's say it's Fi and we ping our emotional register to see how we feel about something (since many descriptions of functions focus on how a function feels to the user if it is in a respective position). The way I understand it, our Basic function is supposed to feel the most natural and comfortable for us to use. The Creative function may feel a bit uncomfortable but as we age and grow, it gets integrated with the basic function and I would presume it doesn't cause much trouble --or definitely not as much trouble as the Vulnerable function would.

    I've never had troubles with my T - I may be messy or bad at maths but it doesn't feel like a problem for me. If someone criticizes my knowledge or points out inconsistencies, I can usually take it pretty well and I'd rather learn more than assume I'm stupid and unable to improve. I accumulate knowledge easily in areas that interest me, I quickly become the 'expert' when I get into something. I can also easily convey that knowledge to others, without feeling any stress.

    On the other hand, I've been a very socially inept child and was constantly bullied for this and ignored by my peers and it felt like living hell. When I was about 15, I started to really work on this aspect of myself because I knew that otherwise I'd be alone forever and it felt terrifying (still does). I found a group of (solely male) nerdy friends that I was able to connect with through my strong T and N that helped me get to my 20s without feeling left completely alone. I continued and still continue working on my F through all my life and I'm now objectively pretty good at it but I still don't feel confident about it. I still don't know how to behave in new situations, I'm awkward meeting new people, I am bad at expressing my feelings, I'm rarely calm when I experience feelings. I react like a child and feel hurt and like I can't ever get good at this when someone criticizes my F-related inadequacies. I'm developed enough to know where I'm inadequate and that's where I apply myself to improve my state. But it's still a lot of very hard work.

    I've never had to work on T-related stuff this much. It just came in and if I found I wasn't good at some part of it, it didn't matter much because I knew I was good at other parts and that would be enough. When my mum got me tutoring in maths, chemistry and physics all through high school, I thought it was just a bother and a waste of money because I knew I wouldn't get better at those subjects and I never really applied myself to them - and I was okay with not being good at them.

    Again, I'm not sure how dynamic this theory is but if I spent about 20 years of my life developing my inadequate F, I would think I would aready have it visible in the way I behave. Would it be possible that this is what you're picking up on?

    ____

    If you ever had time to check these out and tell me how these resonated with you, let me know please! And again thanks for writing down all your thoughts before.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

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    @ToTheMoon If you are between quadras, I wonder how you would feel about these articles...

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ics-hypothesis

    "The Complex of..." articles on the different quadras. Do you relate very well to any of these?

    Here's one for dimensionality of functions, since that was brought up earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    @ToTheMoon If you are between quadras, I wonder how you would feel about these articles...

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ics-hypothesis

    "The Complex of..." articles on the different quadras. Do you relate very well to any of these?
    I can only honestly exclude the Beta quadra. The rest I can identify with in one place or another, but none with much larger accuracy than others. I could see myself functioning in all these modes, and, in fact, I have functioned in them, in different times of my life. Being an honest social chameleon seems to have its drawbacks when you can't trace your way back to yourself.

    Thank you! This article is ingenious. Now on a quest to decipher the bad translation...
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

  29. #109
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I wonder how you'd see some other parts I wrote about.
    I will be happy to give more thoughts, and I will, later, when I know I can take the time to finish... which is easier on weekends... Meanwhile, I hope you please don't mind that right now I will go off on a side topic concerning my own thoughts I have been having, that were inspired by your unusual word!

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    ...The best word to describe it that comes to mind would be [/COLOR][I]numinosum.

    ...Aaand I just made myself pretentious in my own eyes.
    LOL, this reminds me of how I sometimes get inspired by the current perfect application of some word I heard once some random long time ago.

    When you wrote "numinosum", I had to look it up, but before I did, I asked my husband what it meant, because I knew he would analyze the root words, and I wanted to see what he came up with. Maybe I could challenge him. But I haven't stumped him yet, and I didn't this time, either. Sure enough, after the expected, "How do you spell it?" and then weighty silence, he came up with a suggestion which turned out to be, as usual, perfectly accurate. He said, "Well it basically means Godlike, divine". Sure enough, the first definition is, "Numinosum is the term Jung appropriated from Rudolf Otto's The Idea of the Holy" (so maybe you came across this in Jung study?). My husband's next comment was, "I haven't heard it with '-osum'; that's different" [but he is not likely to be reading Jung]. And also noted when I looked it up: "Numen, pl. numina, is a Latin term for 'divinity', or a 'divine presence', 'divine will.'"

    So hopefully you don't mind me making a side comment on that which inspired a current focus of mine: changing my inner awareness so that I am mindful always of the reality of the divine presence of God, who is everywhere, all the time. I know God is here all the time, and also His angels and saints, who desire to assist us to do the will of God - I just want to feel that awareness, or at least live in a state of that awareness. So I have been aiming to be more mindful, throughout the day, in the moment, of the comforting loving presence of God [which helps so much, because who cares if I am not seen, validated, liked - when I am basking in being the beloved of God? and it makes me mindful not to disturb any other eof God's beloved (meaning everyone)] and also the important question to me lately, am I anywhere near living in His divine will? That should be the purpose of my life on earth, so, it matters in my everyday and every moment.

    I know His divine will can't be a very contemplated thing, because if it were, that would be anxiety-producing! I also know that to be in the will of God is most often right in the place God has us in right now, particularly among the people He has given us to love: our family, the people He has in our life, and in our work (though if any of those is causing us a great deal of stress we need to rethink if that is where God wants us to be). I am at peace that in that respect, that where I am is where I am supposed to be.

    So I am focusing on one aspect of His will, with full confidence this is enough for now, and this I know is true of His will at all times: that He wants us to be at peace. He does not want us to fill ourselves up with anxieties, because it is when we are at peace that we hear His voice, that we feel His presence, and we feel the reality of Who he is: love and mercy. He wants to be with us, and we don't have room for him when we are filled with anxieties.

    So I am focusing on not being anxious from the time I get up. I am getting ready purposefully, but without the usual stress or anxiety for being the possibility of being late. And same for driving to work and all the rest of the things that seem to produce anxiety concerning getting the day at work started. I work with young people and also colleagues who all have many reasons to be anxious, and for me to be a peaceful and accepting presence - just that in itself is helpful to them.

    God tells us so many times to "Be not anxious". And we know that Jesus' greeting was so often, "Peace be with you." He tells us, "Be anxious for nothing" even when He knows: there is so much to be anxious about! I know I do not even need to "produce" this peace in myself, just simple ask for it, and He gives it, because He promises to fill us with peace, any time we ask. I have so many times asked for and received His peace, this peace which is "not as the world gives" -- because the world gives a peace that makes sense, like when you feel great when all is going your way -- but His peace is different, it is the "peace that passes all understanding", a peace that makes no sense, a peace that is heavenly because it makes no sense in the world at the moment to be at peace! Yet even knowing this by experience, I can still allow anxiety to settle in places, like, in my morning routine, habitually thinking that it's the stress that gets me out the door on time and properly established in my day. But that can't be His way for me. If am going to dwell in His presence I need to guard that peace, being mindful of my state, and asking for help when I am not in the state which He wills me to be in.

    So that is what has been on my mind, and your comment got me thinking more about it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    This article is ingenious. Now on a quest to decipher the bad translation...
    Dimensions of functions is one of baseless hypotheses which are not part of normal Socionics and should be avoided as much doubtful and never used as having more importance than normal theory in the borders of Jung and Augustinavichiute. 1st of all avoided by novices, as they do not understand the basics to check the degree those hypotheses are correct. too easy to be misleaded by that random thinking stuff
    Rose is the example, who have made a mess in own head by the usage of random texts and is unable to see the evidence of other type than she writes in the profile. By this road you may repeat her achievement and of some others who mistype themselves and basis this by non-Socionics hypotheses.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I will be happy to give more thoughts, and I will, later, when I know I can take the time to finish... which is easier on weekends... Meanwhile, I hope you please don't mind that right now I will go off on a side topic concerning my own thoughts I have been having, that were inspired by your unusual word!

    (...)

    So that is what has been on my mind, and your comment got me thinking more about it.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me, Eliza. Very interesting. I sadly can't relate because I'm not religious and the idea of God is very foreign for me, being brought up in an atheist family. I had a yearning for some larger power when I was younger and tried to feel a connection with it through paganism and other non-systemic religions and practices but could never really feel it or believe it --turns out I need a tangible experience to actually trust in something like that. So it's always interesting to me to read others' reflections on the topic and to wonder how it's possible to just trust in something outside of self (and others) and find peace in it. It sounds good. Just not accessible for me. And I'm okay with that, btw.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Dimensions of functions is one of baseless hypotheses which are not part of normal Socionics and should be avoided as much doubtful and never used as having more importance than normal theory in the borders of Jung and Augustinavichiute. 1st of all avoided by novices, as they do not understand the basics to check the degree those hypotheses are correct. too easy to be misleaded by that random thinking stuff
    Rose is the example, who have made a mess in own head by the usage of random texts and is unable to see the evidence of other type than she writes in the profile. By this road you may repeat her achievement and of some others who mistype themselves and basis this by non-Socionics hypotheses.
    Hmm, okay, I get your drift, learn to walk before you try to run. That article interested me because I could easily identify in myself the processes that I'm largely stunted in and can't seem to gain experience in --like social situations that require normative behaviours which I don't already know, ie. travelling, behaving in a formal situation, meeting people outside my circle etc. No matter how many times I experience something new in this area (say, no matter how many times I travel abroad), I never feel like it equipped me with more knowledge about how to approach another new situation (so, each time I travel abroad, I experience anxiety connected to correct behaviour on the airport, confusion in the way I should walk in the streets in the place I'm visiting, the way I should talk to locals, how to buy food etc.). It's like I can't extrapolate from what I've already experienced to get better at handling things in this area. It's like there is a set of rules for each situation and you can't use rules from one situation to another because that would be inappropriate. I also don't feel like 'I can do whatever I want to do because I'm following my own set of rules' --no, the rules given 'from above' are the ones I should adhere to and in the face of that my own rules become insignificant. I feel like a child whenever I'm in some kind of office, when I travel abroad or meet people with whom I know I have little societal connection (for example they speak another language or have a knowledge I don't or they know the culture to which I'm a foreigner). So, compared to the descriptions from the article, that sounded to me like a one-dimensional function. My guess would be Fi or Fe.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

  33. #113
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I've had a chance to think about your type. I'm going with SLI
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I've had a chance to think about your type. I'm going with SLI
    Thank you for taking more time to think about my case. SLI is a surprising suggestion that's pretty far from your previous view of me, isn't it? Would you mind explaining you train of thought and how you got there?
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me, Eliza. Very interesting. I sadly can't relate because I'm not religious and the idea of God is very foreign for me, being brought up in an atheist family. I had a yearning for some larger power when I was younger and tried to feel a connection with it through paganism and other non-systemic religions and practices but could never really feel it or believe it --turns out I need a tangible experience to actually trust in something like that. So it's always interesting to me to read others' reflections on the topic and to wonder how it's possible to just trust in something outside of self (and others) and find peace in it. It sounds good. Just not accessible for me. And I'm okay with that, btw.
    Oh, sorry I went on a bit when you were not even relating. But maybe you can relate to having a need to putting into words the things you have been pondering in your mind.

    I have so many thoughts on what you said here, but have not been able to imagine at all what to say in response, but I will try now and see what comes out.

    Primarily I feel sad for you, like I feel sad for anyone growing up without having people of faith in their lives. My parents weren't particularly faithful but had enough faith to take us to church. My Mom taught a little Sunday School even. I know this is because she had faith witnesses in her life, and she was taken to church as a child, where she met people of faith who impressed her for life. In the summer there were visiting chalk artists who told stories about Jesus while they drew, and they took an interest in my mother, and my mother ended up going to the college they taught at. So their impact had impact on me. It was in that neighborhood church we went to that we had a wonderful Sunday School department leader. She was young, single, very loving and she played the autoharp. She used to sit with us on the floor and tell us about Jesus and play us songs about God on her autoharp. She had costumes for us to dress up in to put on plays from the Bible, and she led a movement choir I was in, and she had so much patience with children, and real faith. And I think that faith-witness she gave was a contribution to my seeking faith later in life. God says when you seek Him you WILL find Him, and everything He says is always true, so, of course it worked that way for me. Faith is my greatest gift and treasure in life, and not because I deserve to have this faith, it's because God is good and He gives good gifts, and the gift of faith is one of those gifts He gives. I do not know why I am so blessed. Well, part of it is to pray for everyone else who doesn't know the power and blessing prayer to the real and true highest power and greatest love in this world and the next.

    You said you wonder how people can trust in something outside yourself and that is a good question. When you want to know who is the true God, and seek Him, and even just desire a little bit to know who He is in your heart, He always reveals Himself. I always love to hear other people's stories of God revealed himself to them, because it is uniquely different for everyone, yet somehow the same. I also have enjoyed many stories of atheists who have come to know God, so I do know one does not need to grow up in a faithful environment to be blessed with faith.

    Those times when you need something greater than yourself, a power outside yourself, and you call on it, God answers, and you KNOW this power is not you, but outside you.

    Here are some well-loved sayings God that are dear to me and countless others over the centuries because they so perfectly encapsulate the great truth about how our hearts seek God:

    "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you." - St. Augustine of Hippo c.400 A.D.

    And I love this quote of Blaise Pascal:

    “What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace?
    This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself”


    Well I guess you can see this is my favorite topic. But I am going to look again at your post to answer more, and will work on it and post it tonight if there aren't too many interruptions.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  36. #116
    FlatEarthVegetarian420's Avatar
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    You are INFP 😎

  37. #117
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    ... ENFp... that's also the way I see myself --those moments I spend with friends have been the basis for my definition of myself... Turns out when looking for definitions, I match the ENFp one well and then find it very lacking.
    Yes, it's hard to be pigeon-holed, and most of us resist that. But you'll see how extremely broad and deep the ENFp description is, and you won't feel that it limits. Of course, every other type description is also really broad and deep. There is a lot to people, anda lot to each of the types.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    The ego I described in my OP is a state I can't stay in for a long time and I will disengage from it after a while. A couple of times I went sailing with a bunch of friends, I soon depleted my reserves of extraversion and had to go introvert somewhere. The boat was rather small and with no place to hide, I sort of got irritated whenever someone disturbed my 'solitude', asked to play games with them etc. They were a bit surprised because they didn't know me from this side. So there's that part too.
    Well I've heard that ENFp is the most introverted extrovert, so that fits. Also the only time I was on a big sailboat was growing up when our family of 6 went on a great-aunt's sailboat in Rhode Island (And now that I live near there I wish i knew where that house was! She has long since passed. We only did this once.) and there was room on that boat, and I loved the experience, and I remember after some time on the deck going below to the sleeping room, because I just wanted to experience this on my own with my own thoughts. Since we are Fi, and so many things give us feeling impressions, and my experience is, and I have read this of ENFp, we need to get alone to work out our feelings. So being around people a great deal can invigorate us as well us make us want to withdraw adfn be alone.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I just very rarely see people for longer periods of time so I rarely have the possibility to notice how I behave. I've just realized that in the past three months that I've been living on my own, I only saw my boyfriend regularly (we don't live together tho) and I met with a friend or a family member maybe once a week or two. I'm totally okay with that. I should mention I work from home and have done so for the last 10 years, so again, no way to test how I behave around people when I have to meet them daily.
    That's cool that you can work from home.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    ...I'll just paste a couple of the descriptions I posted before so you don't have to look.
    That helps!

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Being more precise about what I mean by harmony
    ...My point about harmony wasn't really about physical, tangible experience (which is actually quite unattainable to myself somehow) but more of the abstract nature of things. I'd say harmony is like illumination, where all aspects of self come together to form an aware and grounded 'me' that can navigate the world in an engaged yet detached manner. Something I sometimes experience and dear me, if I could just stay there for more than a day or two...
    Yes, I do understand. I referred to physical harmony because that is intensely on my mind right now... I am currently rearranging, reorganizing and looking at what the main room in this house "needs" to look just right, and harmony is a big part of that. It's where my focus is today, but there is for me also a whole need for harmony within myself and with relationships. For me the biggest harmony issue comes from knowing what I believe about God and spiritual reality, and am I really living what i believe, or am I living in the world as if the things of this world are the bigger reality, when I know they're not, and just sort of sliding by with my faith like it's something I decided in the past, rather than something I am living. That is my biggest issue with harmonizing my inner self. And since it's not your struggle, I fear I am not grasping specifically what you mean by this. I do relate to wanting to navigate the world in an engaged yet detached manner. Yes.

    In seeking to dwell feeling a certain way, I feel there is a danger. I think that doing the right thing is the most important thing in the moment, and though it might not be what I feel like doing at the moment, doing what's right, in the end will make me feel the best. That is me, from my experience. But you may get to the same place your way, as well!

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    But I think I understand where you're getting the Si vibes from: I gave the example of clothing matching the body in a harmonious way. Which is obviously Si-related. I did that to approximate my idea and I now realize I've failed because I oversimplified in order to not have to use big words and appear pretentious. Again, I'm quite unable to put it into words, but for me, the experience of looking at someone dressed in harmony with their essence is something beyond the tangible, external world. It's spiritual. Like becoming lost in a piece of art, particularly music (because of the time continuum --a person in clothing is not a static item, it's a process). Yes, it is an aesthetic experience, but more so it is spiritual. The best word to describe it that comes to mind would be numinosum.

    ...Aaand I just made myself pretentious in my own eyes.

    I commented on this already, but I will add I also crave aesthetic experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    About Ne/Ni
    ...
    I generally dislike exploring ideas like 'what would it be like to walk on the Moon?' or 'what superpower would you choose if you could have one?'. Topics like that irk me. There's no connection to reality, or to me personally, I would not be able to experience that so WHY BOTHER THINKING ABOUT IT, YOU'RE WASTING MY TIME. I don't usually get angry at topics of conversation but these mildly irritate me and I see them as childish flights of fancy for some reason. I find that weird because I recognize these are innocent questions and there's nothing wrong with imagining things. But these are just... what's the point? It's not entertaining, it's not interesting, it's gibberish and excessive. (Whenever I a man asks me one of these questions, and that happens a lot to me somehow, I throw up a bit in my mouth.)
    LOL, I don't like those questions at all, either! It must be some other type's idea of an interesting conversation. And since you are a thoughtful person, they think you can share on that topic, too...

    It is for us a wonderful opportunity to be practice patience and other-focus while someone else expresses what is interesting for them, LOL. We can also kindly explain that we don't have much to offer on that question; it's not the kind of imagining that compels us to think. It reminds me how as an artist, I have my own ideas about what is beautiful, and I have almost no patience for bad art, for example, ugly handicrafts at an art show. I remember going to an art show and seeing booths packed with awful knitted kleenex box covers and other ugly cha-cha and feeling like I would rather throw up than look at that. I remember asking an artist friend (very talented and accomplished) if he had trouble looking at bad art like I do and he said no; he sees the person behind it and appreciates the effort put in. So, that was a lesson to me to try to see things differently than I naturally want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I also dislike it when I talk with my best friend about her problems and at the end of the conversation she says things like 'this could play out in so many ways... the future could bring anything...' and she's very prone to generalizations like that. I mean, if you wanna talk about different scenarios, sure, I can help coming up with them, I have no problem with that, although I think that's just excessive worry generation and bad for you. Again, this irks me. Why would you try to somehow charm the future by trying to predict it? Why not concentrate on things that are currently happening within you and trace them back to things that brought you here and see them for what they are and then make a conscious decision as to what you want to do instead of letting 'the world' happen around you while you just adjust yourself to it? I guess that's my calling for her agency --something we both lack so that's why it irritates me so much .

    LOL, I relate. But she probably thinks its interesting when it's somehow hitting on a uncomfortable function for you. Another wonderful opportunity to stretch yourself into supporting some other very different type... and we ENFp's are pretty good at that.

    I am finding it easier to morphe to other's ways at work now that I get to come home to my SLI, who I am totally comfortable around... It's a good thing!


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Related to another video I made.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    ...My vagueness, I think, often stems from my childish tendency to think that others can easily read me and already know what's in my head, or actually in my heart because I only have this tendency about my feelings (I can easily explain things when it comes to knowledge and don't experience any stress about it if my knowledge is well based). I feel that I have everything written on my face so people know anyway.

    Maybe because you can easily read others and what's in their head, adn you are assuming others can do this too... but not everyone can do that so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    If they already know, then to explain too much would be excessive and even more embarrassing. It's very awkward for me. Some part of me thinks I'm way more expressive than I really am, and being expressive about my feelings is ungggghhhhh let's just not. Just got an illumination here. Is my PoLR Fe? That would point to ISTp and INTp. Interesting.
    I think it's just that we like Fi so much, we would rather stay there then spend time in Fe. Fe is so overrated, we think. I particularly find Fe irritating in that it seems I am being told how to feel about a thing, because that is what everyone is supposed to feel about a thing. But we aren't bad at Fe, we just don't prefer it. I think I have said that feel at work I need to up my Fe awareness, so I try, and I try to be aware of group-feeling and play into it as much as possible... "It's not all about me," I remind myself...



    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    And not entirely impossible, really, if I think about it from the perspective of: the more I know, the better and more confident I feel but the more I feel, the more confused, afraid and overwhelmed I am (illumination here being mostly this: I have so many feelings all the time but I actually don't feel good with them most of that time!), and always turning to thinking/analyzing to cope.
    This sounds like me, too, at times, and at those times I feel I need to get out of myself and tune into others. Too much time alone and thinking of my own self can get me to a bad place. Also, for me, - and I am not preaching, but telling you what I actually do in this case - I read the Bible or other holy reading to get out of myself, and this is always a cure.

    I remind myself at these times of what I wrote in the above post: that I need peace, and God promises me (and everyone) His supernatural peace if I ask for it. Getting too much of me in my head can make me anxious and gives rise to the need to ask for this peace.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    This last part I was hoping to get a more general answer to... it's something that makes total sense to me but I don't know how it works within the system of socionics.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Hmm, okay, I'm not sure exactly how dynamic socionics is but I was wondering a thing. If a person is focused on developing their lower function and brings it into consciousness, that surely has to translate to the way they appear to others. On the other hand, it doesn't mean the integrated lower function will ever feel as natural and comfortable to the person as their top function(s).
    Yes, we can purposely improve our functions, like I how wrote above how I try to improve my Fe awareness at work, acknowledging that my favored way of looking at things or my favored way of being might not be the best in this situation, and I try to look at things through a Fe lens. But yet we are stuck always being ourselves, and we come back, when we may, to what we really are. Like, you were talking of being messy, or not organized (can't remember exactly how your phrased it). Well, I had to be organized for me to handle doing my job, and I also had to develop a strong "j" side, and not just be ole "p" me. I had plenty of examples of great "j" in action at work to emulate, since it seems the majority of teachers are "j". Yup, lots pf "j"'s along with "p"'s acting like "j"'s.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Side note: how do we actually judge our own function stacking and development? We need to use a function to do that so which one is it?
    Let's say it's Fi and we ping our emotional register to see how we feel about something (since many descriptions of functions focus on how a function feels to the user if it is in a respective position). The way I understand it, our Basic function is supposed to feel the most natural and comfortable for us to use. The Creative function may feel a bit uncomfortable but as we age and grow, it gets integrated with the basic function and I would presume it doesn't cause much trouble --or definitely not as much trouble as the Vulnerable function would.
    Makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I've never had troubles with my T - I may be messy or bad at maths but it doesn't feel like a problem for me. If someone criticizes my knowledge or points out inconsistencies, I can usually take it pretty well and I'd rather learn more than assume I'm stupid and unable to improve. I accumulate knowledge easily in areas that interest me, I quickly become the 'expert' when I get into something. I can also easily convey that knowledge to others, without feeling any stress.
    Depends on if you are talking Te or Ti. To me the problem with Ti is when I try to explain at Ti thing it takes me way too long and too many words to communicate it. This ENFp use of Ti is well-described in Sociotype.com's ENFp description, which I tried to link here, but the site must be down right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    On the other hand, I've been a very socially inept child and was constantly bullied for this and ignored by my peers and it felt like living hell.
    I sort of thought of myself this way too. My original explanation for this was being an "E" growing up in an "I" family and being expected to behave like an "I". I now think a bit of ignorance about Fe socializing was an issue, too, since school social popularity is very Fe linked. Also I was sensitive (and still am, but now I have more tools and remedies). It did not feel like a living hell, and I feel for you for that, but just accepted I was I was a bit of an outsider, and I had my few good friends, and I was glad for them. In high school it got better with the friends I made there, but I was too trusting and not all you supposse are friends are so true always, so there were some hurts, and also I did not know how to play social games. In college I sort of came out of my shell, and going to college frat parties with dorm-mates was a catalyst in that. And all sorts of friends in my dorm made a difference. I just went with the flow and blended in and had happy times with my friends. And some of the activities I did in college helped a lot too. I worked at getting out of my shell and it was a time of being more tuned into me all the time.

    Also in college I found that coming out of my shell, and accomplishments and adventures, and social success (for me, compared to before) was not enough, something was missing inside. And so I wrote poems, like: "I am looking for something, don't know what, but when I find it, I will know it." Also one poem was about choosing to do nothing rather than things that weren't real - and the socializing I'd been so thrilled to engage in now seemed like a lack of realness. As college parties can be. So on that account I was alone one Friday night when the doorbell rang, and it was my roommate's friend, who had come to see her in a storm. But she wasn't there, and he was covered in snow, so I invited him in for tea, since that's what they did. And since they talked about Jesus, I asked him about Jesus, and completely unexpectedly, in that conversation, I found Jesus. I knew, this was the mysterious something I was looking for! This was the "not enough" that was inside me! (I asked, "Is that what those bumper stickers mean? Those 'I Found it' ones?" Yes, it was. And the high of being in love with Jesus lasted many many weeks and changed my life forever. That is what I found the emptiness inside means.


    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    When I was about 15, I started to really work on this aspect of myself because I knew that otherwise I'd be alone forever and it felt terrifying (still does).
    I am going to pray for you to have peace about this. And I do not think you will be alone forever. You are a very engaging person.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I found a group of (solely male) nerdy friends that I was able to connect with through my strong T and N that helped me get to my 20s without feeling left completely alone.
    We ENFps often have a heart for those in the fringe...

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I continued and still continue working on my F through all my life
    Probably you mean work on your Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    and I'm now objectively pretty good at it but I still don't feel confident about it. I still don't know how to behave in new situations, I'm awkward meeting new people, I am bad at expressing my feelings, I'm rarely calm when I experience feelings. I react like a child and feel hurt and like I can't ever get good at this when someone criticizes my F-related inadequacies. I'm developed enough to know where I'm inadequate and that's where I apply myself to improve my state. But it's still a lot of very hard work.
    Aw. There are plenty of self-help books for getting along in difficult social situations or with difficult people. I am sensitive and easily hurt, too, but over the years I have learned many coping techniques including how or when to stand up for myself, and also how to understand those who hurt (made me study a lot of psychology and personality theories) and Ican now often see into the person and see that lack, or the brokenness that makes then act out hurtfully. And I know who to avoid. And how to talk myself out of hurt feelings. I also experience feelings very strongly and I don't like to show them either (but it often shows!).

    It is my faith that helps me in so many situations. For example, I went through a very difficult time adjusting to life as a single mother after divorce. People treat divorced people differently than married ones and I was very sensitive to that. I began praying the Litany of Humility* on a regular basis - daily, and more often if it was a tough day. This is because I was trying to grow in faith in the midst of these difficulties, and praying this prayer was recommended to me as a powerful tool for grace. Well here it is:

    One day, i was struck with an unexpected insult or a dismissal of some sort (isn't it always unexpected?). My first NORMAL-for-me response would have been to feel extremely hurt and depressed! Instead, I felt the comforting presence of God right next to me, and I laughed, and said, "THANK you, Jesus! Just what I asked for!" - and I felt His amusement with me, and His shared delight in my discovery of this gift of grace I'd been given. And no bad hurt feelings! I knew that the GRACE (gift of God) that I had been praying to receive - to actually DESIRE to be ignored, or discounted, or ridiculed - had come to me. And just in time!

    That is an example of the mysterious of things of God outside ourselves that are very useful, that are too difficult to manufacture for ourselves in difficult moments.



    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    I've never had to work on T-related stuff this much. It just came in and if I found I wasn't good at some part of it, it didn't matter much because I knew I was good at other parts and that would be enough. When my mum got me tutoring in maths, chemistry and physics all through high school, I thought it was just a bother and a waste of money because I knew I wouldn't get better at those subjects and I never really applied myself to them - and I was okay with not being good at them.
    It sounds like you are more into the arts than the sciences, like me. But if you HAD to be good at the sciences, I'm sure you could be. Your "I want" just wasn't there. You just didn't see the need to apply yourself to what you didn't enjoy.

    For me, in college, after skating by on average grades for awhile, one of the things I pursued (in order to find that elusive missing "something") was to get straight A's, so to do that I had to apply myself in those courses I didn't like, as well as the ones I did like, and found that with some creative techniques and good time management I could learn them as well as anyone else. Not because of the loftier goal of wanting to master science, but because I wanted to receive A's. Because I hadn't before (consistently, anyway), and because I thought if I did get those straight A's I would have gain that elusive fulfilled-sense-of-self I was searching for. I did get the A's, and briefly, it was very fulfilling to accomplish that, and to be seen as a stellar student - which was the reward I'd sought. But I soon felt that was an empty prize, and while I thought it good to keep up the good grades, I was on searching for the next thing that would make me feel whole. Each thing I accomplished that I thought would be the "it" that made me happy - would make me happy - briefly. But always it felt at base, empty, or not enough. It was not until I found Jesus that I knew without a doubt that I found what I was looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Again, I'm not sure how dynamic this theory is but if I spent about 20 years of my life developing my inadequate F, I would think I would already have it visible in the way I behave. Would it be possible that this is what you're picking up on?
    I am sure I am seeing a whole pic of you, and its a picture of an ENFp! Maybe even ENFp-Ne, like me. (You'll have to read descriptions of ENFp-Ne and ENFP-Fi and decide which one sounds more like you. I feel I sound like both, but more Ne).

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    ....If you ever had time to check these out and tell me how these resonated with you, let me know please! And again thanks for writing down all your thoughts before.
    Oh, dear, I hope I did not give you too much to think about! It's why i put off writing; I knew it would take awhile. Possibly addressing Q's about how Sociotype influences thoughts you expressed gets a bit Ti for me, and that translates into me getting wordy, as I explain all the things possibly connected with a thing...

    ________________
    * If that seems a crazy thing to pray, and you are interested in reading someone's reflection on that, there is one here: http://www.catholic365.com/article/1...-humility.html
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  38. #118
    I'm a fruit Kiwi's Avatar
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    From vi you're ne-creative and I find @Sol has got a point with his typing
    Last edited by Kiwi; 01-22-2019 at 04:08 AM.



  39. #119
    ToTheMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    ...
    Hi Eliza, and thank you for taking your time to answer my posts again. I had to think long and hard before answering because I just have no idea how to put into words what I have experienced while reading your response. I don't want to sound insensitive, I don't believe that I'm a brash person, so I hope you can take my answer as a polite try to create some distance between us. I totally appreciate your enthusiasm and eagerness to answer in detail! That was very kind of you to take a lot of time to do it. I think it benefitted me greatly, because I could see some pieces of the puzzle that were eluding me before. So in the name of science , I want to say what I felt while reading, and again, please don't take it the wrong way.

    Your answer felt very overbearing and like you were trying to see things in me that aren't there. When you were relating to me, I have in turn found it incredibly hard to relate back to what you were saying. In fact, I didn't relate almost at all. I was surprised a lot of times, trying to figure out how it was that you were relating to something I said, while yourself talking about something completely different and unrelated to my statements. Instead of feeling supported and like I belong, I felt misunderstood and taken for granted --like you just wanted to talk about yourself, using my descriptions of myself as a jumping off point for your own musings. I guess some of my vague statements are to blame, as they offer a wide range of interpretations but it felt mildly insulting to me. But that's fine! It let me find a new perspective on things.

    As I said, I needed some time to think about the things you said. I find it helps me cool down when I write down what I feel and then edit it to sound reasonable to others (which, yes, makes writing posts very long. I think I spent over two hours writing this one). (How Fe of me.) I did that process here as well and came to a conclusion that it was a really great to react to your post the way I reacted because it showed me where my boundaries lie. It's probably not related to my socionics type much, but it is important to me to know those boundaries and respect them. I have trouble with that. So thanks for providing that experience! On that note, there was one statement that stood out most among others. Again, my reaction to it could be unrelated to socionics at all, but to my conditioning and psychological profile instead. But I thought I'd share it here in case someone saw something in it.

    I am sure I am seeing a whole pic of you (...)!
    Maybe I'm overreacting here, I'm sure you had the best of intentions when writing this sentence but I'm so sorry, you definitely aren't seeing a whole pic of me. I think it would be a very rude thing to say to anyone because it's so objectifying, but regardless of social conventions, it touched me very deeply and in a very wrong way when I read it. Few things get to me like that. No, you're not seeing me. I tend to believe only personal interaction with someone can allow you to get to know the other person, and even then it's never going to be the full picture, no matter how many descriptions of themselves they give you. We perceive others through our own prism and we only see our reflections of the other person in us, not the person themselves. Yes, we can do a complicated thing like trying to find a type for someone, but we are unable to really see them in their entirety --that is already too complex for limited cognitive abilities of a human being. It's just not possible. I don't think people even see their own selves in their entirety. And that's totally okay. But in my mind, it's definitely not okay to say you see a whole pic of someone. That's like taking away what makes them an individual person, and bringing them down to an object that you can catalog and put away in one of the shelves in your mind. Sure, we all do that all the time, that makes it easier to live and interact with people. But hearing such a thing said openly rubs me the wrong way. Personally, I make these simplifications while still keeping an asterisk that says 'not really what you think they are' about every person I know.*

    *Posting this whole paragraph makes me very uneasy because I'm aware it can create discord and hurt feelings. I thought of erasing it altogether but decided it should stay here, 'for science'.

    I hope this didn't sound too blunt. I don't know how better to put it. Thanks again for taking all the time you took! It helped me see some things I couldn't recognize before.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

  40. #120
    ToTheMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    From vi you're ne-creative and I find @Sol has got a point with his typing
    Thanks! I can definitely see Ne in my VI as well.
    SLI trained too well in Ne+Fi.
    9w1 sx/so
    Cancer Sun, Mercury and Mars, Virgo Ascendant and Moon, Taurus Venus. Fortunately spiced up with Uranus on IC.

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