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Thread: Can you help? Am I ENFp or INFp?

  1. #41
    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    It was a pattern that was observed anong mbti professionals. My mil is an mbti expert she says J type tend to use -ing a lot and P type -ed. Besides for ToTheMoon’s use of Fi (her personal feelings and sentiments, describing her ties to her personal relationships etc), she tends to use a lot of -ing
    Hmm, cheers for the response. That's an account, not an explanation though. Are You familiar with the reasoning, or simply have faith in her conclusion? In any case, that's rather interesting.

    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    Model A: IEI-Fe1
    -
    Model G: TR

    Quadra Values: Beta
    DCNH: Dominant
    MBTI: INFJ
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So

    Astrology: Gemini Sun, Libra Moon, Scorpio Rising; Scorpio/Pluto Dominant




  2. #42
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    That's really kind and you described it well. I hope for understanding but fear it won't come and so I almost never open up.
    I do
    And you bring tears to my eyes in my own self reflection.
    I have grown a lot.
    One advice if I may leave you...love openly and without shame.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    lmao why whatever are You talking about!?


    @ToTheMoon I'm not even halfway through Your video and You're obviously EII to me. That's a comment on what You're saying, as I've not graduated from VI University yet heheh. Vi-wise, what I can say is You do look and speak like a marginally calmer version of an EII ex of mine, so I suppose that reinforced my perception on some level.

    Transcribed from the video: "Valuing myself... is a value.... in itself. Thanks to valuing myself, I can.... be independent of others, of their influence, and I can be safe in myself to connect with others, without the need to, sort of, 'blend' with them. But, that connection is.... incredibly important to me; I mean, without feeling connection to other people, I wither away and die. So, I guess, being close to others, being authentic with others, being able to be open with others, that is what is important to me."

    This certainly stood out. That You're Program Fi is a near certainty. I would further wager Your Fi is Fi+, making You Delta NF > Gamma SF. IEE seems unlikely, as possessing both 4D Ne and (unconscious) 4D Fe generally entails a ton of energy, where You seem comparatively calm and gentle. If I was a betting man I'd go all-in on You being EII, otherwise IEE-Fi would be the next consideration.
    Almost missed this post! Wow, that sounds like some deep level analysis. Not sure I understand all the things you wrote (4D? Fi+?) but it seems that EII and IEE are my two possible options now, according to most of you guys. Thanks for the input!

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Hmm, cheers for the response. That's an account, not an explanation though. Are You familiar with the reasoning, or simply have faith in her conclusion? In any case, that's rather interesting.
    Well she has had over 20 years of experience in the corporate setting also I am keeping an open mind about the phenomenon
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  5. #45
    ToTheMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I do
    And you bring tears to my eyes in my own self reflection.
    I have grown a lot.
    One advice if I may leave you...love openly and without shame.
    Aww . Isn't it great to look back and see our own growth. I sometimes do that too and get moved deeply by it. Glad you resonated with my writing so much! <3
    I, in turn, resonate with your advice. Let's leave it at that for now .

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Almost missed this post! Wow, that sounds like some deep level analysis. Not sure I understand all the things you wrote (4D? Fi+?) but it seems that EII and IEE are my two possible options now, according to most of you guys. Thanks for the input!
    Cheers, lass. The popular model of Socionics most of us are tacitly using here on the forums is called Model A. The +/- component is an addition onto the standard IEs that augments their temperament/nature, and IIRC is a component of Model B, Bukalov's Signage. Bukalov's Signage is also present, AFAIK, in Model G (Gulenko's model), which handles and emphasizes elements in Model A distinctly. Finally, here's a link on functional dimensionality , and (just for some added flavor and fun) have an article on functional semantics .

    Happy to help

    Bukalov's Signage:
    Socionics Functiona + -.jpg

    Signage correlation to type:
    Socionics Functional Model.png

    Triangles are Intuition
    Circles are Sensing
    Squares are Thinking
    Steps are Feeling
    White is Introverted and black is Extroverted

    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    Model A: IEI-Fe1
    -
    Model G: TR

    Quadra Values: Beta
    DCNH: Dominant
    MBTI: INFJ
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So

    Astrology: Gemini Sun, Libra Moon, Scorpio Rising; Scorpio/Pluto Dominant




  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Okay, I'm not sure I get the whole theory behind what you just wrote but I'll educate myself so thanks for pointing this out.
    As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.

    The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

    An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

    IEE - Ne Fi
    SLI - Si Te
    EII - Fi Ne
    LSE - Te Si

    An IEI's dual is SLE
    IEI - Ni Fe
    SLE - Se Ti

    Oh, sorry, I'm a bit owerwhelmed by all the responses I got here, I may have missed your link. I'll go look for it. I can't say I'm connecting with either of Te descriptions too much.
    No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

    Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky) - this person easily believes in facts and figures, often turn a deaf ear to everything but these. Keeps to places where he knows what to do in every situation. Suggestible by the external order of things, which is often the order that was in place during his upbringing: the political system, social norms, etc. Reacts sensitively to social changes: "God grant you do not live in an era of change." Always moves in the direction of highest order and carefully avoids chaos, is inspired by this order and worries that in future it might change. In this regard, may gravitate towards work in the military, which has the force of statute. It is important to him that the environment is always organized in accordance to rules and laws that he is accustomed to, that this order does not contradict the facts of objective reality. It is also important to know who should be in what position, what needs to be done, what documents must be collected, for what purpose, where they should be submitted, what is the correct way to fill them out. Feels most comfortable in situations where there is only one interpretation of correct action, without any admixture with elements of subjectivity: "in this such case, this should be done". Knowledge of the facts of the situation often replaces true understanding of the underlying problems. Understanding becomes superficial, simply a collection of surface data and statistics, laws and regulations. He does not like long and detailed explanations, will immediately interrupt and say: "So what is this in actuality?". He wants to get a working solution or order right away, not the rationale behind it. For example: "2x2=4." This is an already established rule. Likes terminology, you can sometimes talk to him only using some accepted terms and this will be sufficient. Does not like those who destroy the norms of behavior, for example, those who break the chain of command. Especially gets influenced by the facts that he sees with his own eyes or can touch with own hands. Thus he can fall victim to scams that provide specious claims and facts, especially if the scam is done out in the open ("simple dexterity of hands and no tricks").

    Ni as leading sounds familiar to me although I'm not sure I'm so 'stoic' and detached.
    How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

    Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)

    The individual is quite adept at following discussions on the developments of present trends into the future and their meaning, and contributing to them on occasion if he feels so inclined, but he does not take that as seriously compared to investigating and bring up to discussion new alternatives and possible topics in the areas he is interested in at present. He usually dismisses if not outright ridicules claims that everything is set and will continue along the same path and instead prefers to bring up to discussion potential variations and ways out, unusual and rare possibilities, new horizons and enterprising ideas.

    Okay, so maybe a bit of a backstory is needed here. I was brought up by a single mother who was (is) extremly judgmental and uber-controlling and aggresive towards the world (I think she's ESTJ if that helps). She was also violent, both emotionally and physically. In order to, umm, survive her, I just took in everything she said and thought, all of her opinions and her way of being with people. I mimicked her. She would not have me another way, the only correct way to do things was her way. There was no other adult around me to show me a different approach to life and people, no alternative role model. I never rebelled against my mother, not until I was (gasp) about 25. By then I think her steel grip on me lightened slightly and I figured I could have my own opinions on things. That's when I started to see that being judgmental and opinionated at that is actually draining for me and that I'm way more relaxed when I go with 'live and let live' attitude and curiosity about things that are different. That, in itself, was a rebellion and it still creates tension between us whenever I try to show her that others' points of view are valuable and valid, while she insists that they don't get the whole picture (and she does) and I'm flighty and should have strong opinions on things (I do but in a different way than her, so...).
    So there's that.
    Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.
    Beta ST 6w5 8w9 3w4 sx/so

    Every problem on earth can be solved by the liberal application of ordnance

    "Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather he must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life."

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    EII confirmed. Something you do not have is the definitive Model A Xi creative which comes to a definition of their own view. It is like reversed aka expansion of it.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    She shows great patience for difficult people and she wants to keep peace. She did not trump on her mother ‘s authority
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    You seem very balanced and to have a strong nervous system. You seem introverted or on meds. I would say IJ + F. NOT INFj as they are way more dynamic. So my guess is ISFj, which a is a bit backed up by my VI of you as ISFj/ENTp/ISTp.

    Edit: IEE >> IEI by VI imo, though if you are IEE you must be on heavy sedatives as they are WAAAAY more dynamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee View Post
    You seem very balanced and to have a strong nervous system. You seem introverted or on meds. I would say IJ + F. NOT INFj as they are way more dynamic. So my guess is ISFj, which a is a bit backed up by my VI of you as ISFj/ENTp/ISTp.

    Edit: IEE >> IEI by VI imo, though if you are IEE you must be on heavy sedatives as they are WAAAAY more dynamic.
    Hahah, I'm not on meds . Although I am just recovering from a very low episode so that could have contributed to me being less energetic in the video. Or the fact that I was a bit self-conscious because of being recorded. I have another vid that I made a couple of months ago, it's more upbeat. Should I share it for comparison's sake?

    Not sure about being balanced and with a strong nervous system, that'd be a new one. I definitely don't identify with S, though.

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    To Stand As The Oak Luminous Lynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee View Post
    You seem very balanced and to have a strong nervous system. You seem introverted or on meds. I would say IJ + F. NOT INFj as they are way more dynamic. So my guess is ISFj, which a is a bit backed up by my VI of you as ISFj/ENTp/ISTp.

    Edit: IEE >> IEI by VI imo, though if you are IEE you must be on heavy sedatives as they are WAAAAY more dynamic.
    What do You mean by dynamic, and why is that Vi range encompass so much variability? Those three types are starkly different, from different quadra, and value many different IEs. Again. "Dynamic" confuses me in a behavioral sense. What would that look like? Your reasoning also heavily relies on appearances, which themselves can be obfuscated by varying factors. Can You demonstrate the methodological reasoning for her valued IEs? If she's ESI, can You explain the Se? If she's IEE, can You explain why she's Program Ne (and so forth)?

    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    Model A: IEI-Fe1
    -
    Model G: TR

    Quadra Values: Beta
    DCNH: Dominant
    MBTI: INFJ
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So

    Astrology: Gemini Sun, Libra Moon, Scorpio Rising; Scorpio/Pluto Dominant




  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    EII confirmed. Something you do not have is the definitive Model A Xi creative which comes to a definition of their own view. It is like reversed aka expansion of it.
    Okays, thanks! I'm not sure I get what you mean by your last sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    Cheers, lass. The popular model of Socionics most of us are tacitly using here on the forums is called Model A. The +/- component is an addition onto the standard IEs that augments their temperament/nature, and IIRC is a component of Model B, Bukalov's Signage. Bukalov's Signage is also present, AFAIK, in Model G (Gulenko's model), which handles and emphasizes elements in Model A distinctly. Finally, here's a link on functional dimensionality , and (just for some added flavor and fun) have an article on functional semantics .

    Happy to help
    Thanks so much! I'll get acquainted with this knowledge as my time allows during the next weeks . Can't wait to get some free time to dig in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppai Anschluss View Post
    As a big asterisk on this, I have my own personal theory that people who are "disintegrated" in an Enneagram sense fall into their super-ego functions (alternate axis of your Program and Creative) and behave badly like their impressions of their least compatible types. As an example, I know an LII (Ti Ne) who went through a very bad time and coped very poorly, and tried to compensate by acting like a bad caricature of an SEE (Se Fi). That may also explain my confusion given what you said about your experience with your mom. If this is true a disintegrated EII or IEE might behave like an unhealthy SLE or LSI respectively. As an SLE, novelty for its own sake to humor someone's "inner authenticity" tends to piss me off and on a bad day I might tell it to fuck off.
    That sounds sound to me, but naturally I'm no expert. It does seem to explain the effect my bringing up had on me so why not, I'm gonna say you're onto something .

    The suggestive or "dual-seeking" function is the function on the other end of the axis of your lead/program function. Se-lead SLEs and SEEs have Ni suggestive. In intertype relation theory, a type's "dual" is the type who has your suggestive as their lead/program, and your activating/mobilizing as their creative function, so all the things you like but suck at are the things they like and are best at. The things you desire are the things they just simply are. The theory with the dual-seeking function is that when the environment and people around aren't giving as much of it as a person needs the person will try to generate that themselves to get some and effectively send out an SOS for their dual. But the Suggestive Function is the one we value and are worst at, so it's a very basic and clumsy manifestation.

    An IEE's dual is SLI, and EII's dual is LSE.

    IEE - Ne Fi
    SLI - Si Te
    EII - Fi Ne
    LSE - Te Si

    An IEI's dual is SLE
    IEI - Ni Fe
    SLE - Se Ti
    Hah, how fun. One of my best friends is a girl I met by complete chance for quasi-professional reasons and we just clicked. She's self-confirmed ESTJ. We just love each other to bits and somehow naturally do the right things for each other. When I think about my mother who I suspect is also ESTJ, she's very much like my friend, only kinda weirdly 'distorted' in some places.

    No worries, just making sure you didn't miss it. Does this Te sound more like you?

    Te as suggestive function in ESI (ISFj; Dreiser) and EII (INFj; Dostoyevsky)
    I mean sometimes, maybe... But I might just be in denial about my Te .


    How about this. If you're EII instead of IEE you would have Demonstrative Ni as your strongest non-valued function

    Ni as Demonstrative Function (EII, LII)
    This sounds pretty true to me. Although I think I've now reached that zone where anything sounds kinda true (except for things that don't make any sense but that's a pretty low threshold). I need to refresh my brain .

    Youch, sorry to hear that. Glad yougot yourself into a better spot, tho. Assuming my hunch about Enneagram disintegration is accurate that would explain my confusion about your earlier phase. Sorry for any confusion mine may have caused.
    [/QUOTE]
    No worries! It's in the past and I'm comfortable with it now. Thanks for your input and time, it's greatly appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Okays, thanks! I'm not sure I get what you mean by your last sentence.

    Clearly or maybe abruptly stating things from their POV. Seeks clarity but is not very clearly defined may cause great deal of confusion in others. Exxp quality.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    IEE afterall :Love: still very Delta qualities. Patience
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  18. #58
    DRANG NACH IEI Oppai Anschluss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    That sounds sound to me, but naturally I'm no expert. It does seem to explain the effect my bringing up had on me so why not, I'm gonna say you're onto something .
    Awesome lol glad another person does. Seems to hold true across a number of examples.

    Hah, how fun. One of my best friends is a girl I met by complete chance for quasi-professional reasons and we just clicked. She's self-confirmed ESTJ. We just love each other to bits and somehow naturally do the right things for each other. When I think about my mother who I suspect is also ESTJ, she's very much like my friend, only kinda weirdly 'distorted' in some places.
    Duality is a shitload of fun if/when you can find it

    I mean sometimes, maybe... But I might just be in denial about my Te .
    lol likely. The suggestive function is the weakest that you like, so understandings of it are always dog shit. Ni to me may as well just be black magic. It exists behind an event horizon, cognitively, for me. The most I can conceptualize is "meaning" and its use only comes in quick flashes of insight that get translated through higher functions.

    This sounds pretty true to me. Although I think I've now reached that zone where anything sounds kinda true (except for things that don't make any sense but that's a pretty low threshold). I need to refresh my brain .
    lmao sounds good. Eventually comparison to other confirmed types can help dial some of this in. I was typed LSI-Se for a while but eventually it set in that I'm not 1-dimensional Fe (referring back to Luminous Lynx's link) like the LSI's on here.

    No worries! It's in the past and I'm comfortable with it now. Thanks for your input and time, it's greatly appreciated.
    That's great to hear and my pleasure.
    Beta ST 6w5 8w9 3w4 sx/so

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    "Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather he must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life."

  19. #59
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Hi!

    Warning, long post ahead...

    I've been into reading about cognitive functions for a while ...

    ...https://youtu.be/HqmtX7iFxdM

    Thanks for reading and/or watching! I'd appreciate any and all questions and suggestions and answers.
    I will get back after actually reading this. I read up to where I cut it off. And I thought, she will be ENFp not INFp... then i looked at the first 1min., 57 seconds of video, and immediately thought: she is ENFp. I am ENFp, and we are often quickly intuitive and accurate in naming types (I am not just talking about myself but it's in ENFp description somewhere)... I don't guess everyone that fast, but so far, when I have, it's been right. But I could be wrong. I will tell you if my opinion on your type is changed or is the same/reinforced sometime later after I get a chance to actually read what you wrote and watch what you said. So sorry about that but right now I need to make a marinate as well as make tonight's dinner... and I'm not sure when i will get back online, and have a chance to read, so I thought i would share now: it looks like ENFp, and when I guess that quick, I am usu. right!

    Part of it, from the minute of video I watched, is the way you took the questions truly seriously. ENFp is SERIOUS, after all (vs. Merry). And we tend to be sincere, and you were searching inward for your more intuitive-type answers to be sure you were describing your inner experience in the truest way. You went from not being able to look at the camera because you were thinking, and you didn't look much when you did, to instantly giving full, almost intensive eye contact -- a not a threatening intensity but instead friendly and sincere, as well as direct - and I think that is ENFp-like gaze. (furthermore, I completely agree with what you said about beauty and how things go with other things and balance - it's all important, IMO, too!)

    As to the few words I read from your post above, you warned, "This is going to be long" and, hey, that's ENFp!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Hahah, okay, I've been reflecting upon how it felt to be here and what those feelings mean, and here's my conclusion. This is what the whole situation looks like this from my perspective.

    ToTheMoon (TTM): "Hey guys, please help me put myself in a box. I'm either box A or box B."
    Others: Proceed to put TTM in various boxes, A and B and C and D, to her growing delight.
    TTM: "It's amazing to have the possibility to try being all these things! And the people here are genuinely nice and want to help and seem to care and they give me so much of their time! How wonderful!"
    Others: "Okay, you've had your fun, you're definitely in box A."
    TTM: "What, but why, give me all my other boxes, don't put me in a box! I don't like this box, it's too confined and I'm going to be alone in it, where are my other boxes, why did you suddenly stop wanting to play?"
    Others: "There, there. It's a fine box. You'll get used to it."
    TTM: Feels terribly alone and acts childish about it for a while but with time will come to the conclusion it was the correct box and will indeed get used to it. In the mean time will go looking for new contraptions to put herself into. Perhaps buckets or vases or jugs.

    If that doesn't confirm ENFp, I don't know what will. And here I was hoping I would turn out to be someone with the potential to be so much deeper and more nuanced, *~*~*with that mysterious quality I sometimes think I have but no one sees it so maybe I don't really have it but maybe I do but it's just hidden deep in the depths of my soul...*~*~* (this is mockery directed at self, in case you couldn't tell)
    I'm not silly, though, I know I can wish all I want but I am what I am and you guys are correct about it. Smarter to avoid ego fixations.

    Anyways, thank you all for contributing so far! I love reading your thoughts and learning and talking to you. If anyone has anything to add, feel free of course .

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    love your haircut ^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    love your haircut ^^
    Hahah, thanks! Freshly cut yesterday .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Hahah, okay, I've been reflecting upon how it felt to be here and what those feelings mean, and here's my conclusion. This is what the whole situation looks like this from my perspective.

    ToTheMoon (TTM): "Hey guys, please help me put myself in a box. I'm either box A or box B."
    Others: Proceed to put TTM in various boxes, A and B and C and D, to her growing delight.
    TTM: "It's amazing to have the possibility to try being all these things! And the people here are genuinely nice and want to help and seem to care and they give me so much of their time! How wonderful!"
    Others: "Okay, you've had your fun, you're definitely in box A."
    TTM: "What, but why, give me all my other boxes, don't put me in a box! I don't like this box, it's too confined and I'm going to be alone in it, where are my other boxes, why did you suddenly stop wanting to play?"
    Others: "There, there. It's a fine box. You'll get used to it."
    TTM: Feels terribly alone and acts childish about it for a while but with time will come to the conclusion it was the correct box and will indeed get used to it. In the mean time will go looking for new contraptions to put herself into. Perhaps buckets or vases or jugs.

    If that doesn't confirm ENFp, I don't know what will. And here I was hoping I would turn out to be someone with the potential to be so much deeper and more nuanced, *~*~*with that mysterious quality I sometimes think I have but no one sees it so maybe I don't really have it but maybe I do but it's just hidden deep in the depths of my soul...*~*~* (this is mockery directed at self, in case you couldn't tell)
    I'm not silly, though, I know I can wish all I want but I am what I am and you guys are correct about it. Smarter to avoid ego fixations.

    Anyways, thank you all for contributing so far! I love reading your thoughts and learning and talking to you. If anyone has anything to add, feel free of course .
    This was the most self aware and honest Delta NF self-spoof I've seen hahah, well done. In the MBTI community there's a running joke/stereotype, cause there's a TON of NFPs mistyping as NFJs in MBTI, and Your own reasoning largely highlights why.

    That said, I'm glad You're coming to a sense of resolution on the matter, and that the thread's been helpful. I still don't see how You're IEE, that is to say Program Ne over Program Fi, but so be it. I recommend reading the articles on this site on both types, as well as PoLR Ti vs PoLR Se (along with the Program Ne/Fi obviously) for further clarification.

    Gonna reiterate a few things here:

    You said that when You were young that novelty was seen as an attack on Yourself. This doesn't really make any sense for a Program Ne AFAIK. The way it was also experienced so personally as well speaks to Fi. The video lines I transcribed as well:

    ""Valuing myself... is a value.... in itself. Thanks to valuing myself, I can.... be independent of others, of their influence, and I can be safe in myself to connect with others, without the need to, sort of, 'blend' with them. But, that connection is.... incredibly important to me; I mean, without feeling connection to other people, I wither away and die. So, I guess, being close to others, being authentic with others, being able to be open with others, that is what is important to me."

    I'm still adamantly agree with Beautiful Sky. You're an EII. Just my two cents. If You're truly IEE then You'd be IEE-Fi.
    Last edited by Luminous Lynx; 01-09-2019 at 10:42 PM.

    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."

    Model A: IEI-Fe1
    -
    Model G: TR

    Quadra Values: Beta
    DCNH: Dominant
    MBTI: INFJ
    Enneagram: 6w7, 2w1, 8w9
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/So

    Astrology: Gemini Sun, Libra Moon, Scorpio Rising; Scorpio/Pluto Dominant




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    I get SEI impressions of you from your video, @ToTheMoon.

    I don't see where people are seeing extroversion. When you consider an answer, you pause indefinitely while diving deep inside for an answer.

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    yeah the point about harmony i couldn't quite place...didn't make that much sense for Ne, but I only skimmed the content here before answering, since the choice was between IEE and IEI. Si could make sense. She does seem Ne valuing though.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    This was the most self aware and honest Delta NF self-spoof I've seen hahah, well done.
    Thanks

    In the MBTI community there's a running joke/stereotype, cause there's a TON of NFPs mistyping as NFJs in MBTI, and Your own reasoning largely highlights why.
    I can sort of see why. And since it's a stereotype, like you said, and my spoof was also a stereotype, it might be useful to stress that I actually believe I do have incredible depth of insight, especially into myself but also to others, it's just not something I advertise and no way will I ever let anyone near those morasses and cesspools of my inner world. I have, it was not pretty for both parties, I'm not ready to trust anyone like that. Don't know that I ever will be.

    That said, I'm glad You're coming to a sense of resolution on the matter, and that the thread's been helpful. I still don't see how You're IEE, that is to say Program Ne over Program Fi, but so be it. I recommend reading the articles on this site on both types, as well as PoLR Ti vs PoLR Se (along with the Program Ne/Fi obviously) for further clarification.
    I'd say PoLR Se sounds pretty spot on. PoLR Ti sounds like me too but didn't give me the same emotional reaction.

    Gonna reiterate a few things here:

    You said that when You were young that novelty was seen as an attack on Yourself. This doesn't really make any sense for a Program Ne AFAIK. The way it was also experienced so personally as well speaks to Fi.
    I gave a possible explanation for this state in my youth in another post, let me find it... it's on the bottom here.

    The video lines I transcribed as well:

    ""Valuing myself... is a value.... in itself. Thanks to valuing myself, I can.... be independent of others, of their influence, and I can be safe in myself to connect with others, without the need to, sort of, 'blend' with them. But, that connection is.... incredibly important to me; I mean, without feeling connection to other people, I wither away and die. So, I guess, being close to others, being authentic with others, being able to be open with others, that is what is important to me."


    It does sound like Fi dominant. Hum. Were I to give myself more time to think about things, my answer could not have been this. But I didn't want to make people wait for me in the vid and I actually was startled at that question so I answered with what felt like the easiest thing to talk about.

    I'm still adamantly agree with Beautiful Sky. You're an EII. Just my two cents. If You're truly IEE then You'd be IEE-Fi.
    [/QUOTE]
    Beautiful Sky changed her view on me based on further VI. She decided I was ENFp.

    Hey, thanks for thinking about this stuff, I appreciate it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I get SEI impressions of you from your video, @ToTheMoon.
    Interesting. How did you get these impressions, if I may ask? I'm intrigued because in my mind, I'm sooo not a Sensor. I can see Si either as a Vulnerable or Mobilizing Function for me.

    Si as Vulnerable Function (EIE, LIE)

    Individuals who possess introverted sensing as a PoLR function tend to be negligent of its effect and have the view that Si aspects are of less importance than others for achieving their goals. They put a low priority on the physical, short-distance, here-and-now in relation to longer-distance and longer-term considerations. A typical manifestation of Vulnerable Si is high need for activity and change, inability to feel the "heaviness" of one's internal physical state as well as surrounding world, poor capacity to relax and take it slowly, a lack of concern for one's comfort and relaxation, as well as aesthetic details, since a greater focus is given on the opinion that, in the longer term, taking care of this is a never-ending and pointless exercise. Weak sensing also manifests as a relative lack of awareness of the immediate makeup of surroundings, as in noticing and remembering locations of objects, even if you don't have to deal with them, and denoting their characteristics granted their internal physical qualities. A lack of concern for small aesthetic details is more visible in the LIE; in the case of the EIE, the low focus on Si is more noticeable as a dislike for performing low-level upkeep activities and practical chores, which are set aside in favor of activities of informational and immaterial nature (reading, writing, debating, theoretical discussions, browsing the net, etc.) Due to individuals who possess introverted sensing as a 4th function believing that Si aspects are of less importance, they tend to be thrown off course by neglected and newly emergent Si matters.

    Si as Mobilizing Function

    The individual has some difficulties being in tune with internal physical states and discerning the physical properties and potentialities of people and objects, which leads to mishaps and errors of judgement in situations where he has to deal with the physical world. This leads to tension and anxiety, as the individual desires for supportive and harmonious environment, but he is unable to create such an environment himself and dislikes having to put in regular and extensive efforts into maintaining the kind of lifestyle. While he takes care of his basic needs he greatly prefers someone else to take the lead in dealing with the material world. The individual tends to periodically get wound up and uptight, he may engage in overanalysis that is mostly based in theory, while being unable to resolve his internal perceptions and take concrete actions to improve his state. He needs someone to help him resolve these issues, provide him with advice, direction, and evaluation of his own efforts in this area, sensitively discern his needs, resolve and eliminate possible sources of tension that has built up. The individual tends to go into extremes in this area, either neglecting it or trying to overperform.

    I don't see where people are seeing extroversion. When you consider an answer, you pause indefinitely while diving deep inside for an answer.
    I guess ENFp are the introverted extroverts so that could maybe explain it? I would have a hard time placing myself on this spectrum except to say that if I'm an extrovert, then I'm not the 'extroverted extrovert'. I don't really seek outside stimuli. I have enough of them on the inside. Which doesn't in itself mean anything because surely there are people with even more inside stimuli than me (I'd like to meet one!). I personally prefer to focus on the functions stacking rather than ascribing Introversion/Extroversion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    yeah the point about harmony i couldn't quite place...didn't make that much sense for Ne, but I only skimmed the content here before answering, since the choice was between IEE and IEI. Si could make sense. She does seem Ne valuing though.
    Again, if I'm certain of anything about cognitive functions, it's that I'm not a Sensor. I could imagine being a Thinking type but a Sensor I am not. It's just beyond my understanding and recognition.

    My point about harmony wasn't really about physical, tangible experience (which is actually quite unattainable to myself somehow) but more of the abstract nature of things. I'd say harmony is like illumination, where all aspects of self come together to form an aware and grounded 'me' that can navigate the world in an engaged yet detached manner. Something I sometimes experience and dear me, if I could just stay there for more than a day or two...

    But I think I understand where you're getting the Si vibes from: I gave the example of clothing matching the body in a harmonious way. Which is obviously Si-related. I did that to approximate my idea and I now realize I've failed because I oversimplified in order to not have to use big words and appear pretentious. Again, I'm quite unable to put it into words, but for me, the experience of looking at someone dressed in harmony with their essence is something beyond the tangible, external world. It's spiritual. Like becoming lost in a piece of art, particularly music (because of the time continuum --a person in clothing is not a static item, it's a process). Yes, it is an aesthetic experience, but more so it is spiritual. The best word to describle it that comes to mind would be numinosum.

    ...Aaand I just made myself pretentious in my own eyes.

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    I've been reading about information elements and functions and Ne/Ni as lower functions struck me as something familiar but I have a hard time putting my finger on it.

    I generally dislike exploring ideas like 'what would it be like to walk on the Moon?' or 'what superpower would you choose if you could have one?'. Topics like that irk me. There's no connection to reality, or to me personally, I would not be able to experience that so WHY BOTHER THINKING ABOUT IT, YOU'RE WASTING MY TIME. I don't usually get angry at topics of conversation but these mildly irritate me and I see them as childish flights of fancy for some reason. I find that weird because I recognize these are innocent questions and there's nothing wrong with imagining things. But these are just... what's the point? It's not entertaining, it's not interesting, it's gibberish and excessive. (Whenever I a man asks me one of these questions, and that happens a lot to me somehow, I throw up a bit in my mouth.)

    I also dislike it when I talk with my best friend about her problems and at the end of the conversation she says things like 'this could play out in so many ways... the future could bring anything...' and she's very prone to generalizations like that. I mean, if you wanna talk about different scenarios, sure, I can help coming up with them, I have no problem with that, although I think that's just excessive worry generation and bad for you. Again, this irks me. Why would you try to somehow charm the future by trying to predict it? Why not concentrate on things that are currently happening within you and trace them back to things that brought you here and see them for what they are and then make a conscious decision as to what you want to do instead of letting 'the world' happen around you while you just adjust yourself to it? I guess that's my calling for her agency --something we both lack so that's why it irritates me so much .

    Sounds Ignoring/Demonstrative Ne or am I misunderstanding things?

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    relating 100% with that kind of "Ne" annoyance. but I don't think that's a Ne characteristic, at least not necessarily. Ne has always this aura of "everything that's farfetched and beyond the realm of the here and now, Star Trek and Doc Who and all the G.Lukas saga", but actually you can only -find the potential- (=Ne) of something if you're somewhat interested in a specific area... or what would you know?

    Ne paired with Fi is closer to human matters, perhaps Ne paired with Ti is closer to the nerdy mental flights you've described.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous Lynx View Post
    What do You mean by dynamic, and why is that Vi range encompass so much variability? Those three types are starkly different, from different quadra, and value many different IEs. Again. "Dynamic" confuses me in a behavioral sense. What would that look like? Your reasoning also heavily relies on appearances, which themselves can be obfuscated by varying factors. Can You demonstrate the methodological reasoning for her valued IEs? If she's ESI, can You explain the Se? If she's IEE, can You explain why she's Program Ne (and so forth)?
    Sorry I won't answer all of your questions, just about the dynamic. By dynamic I mean more motion, more expression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post
    Hahah, I'm not on meds . Although I am just recovering from a very low episode so that could have contributed to me being less energetic in the video. Or the fact that I was a bit self-conscious because of being recorded. I have another vid that I made a couple of months ago, it's more upbeat. Should I share it for comparison's sake?

    Not sure about being balanced and with a strong nervous system, that'd be a new one. I definitely don't identify with S, though.
    Note sure it would help. You could try. Best also if you made a video of you talking with another person (not via media but present there) in front of the camera.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    relating 100% with that kind of "Ne" annoyance. but I don't think that's a Ne characteristic, at least not necessarily. Ne has always this aura of "everything that's farfetched and beyond the realm of the here and now, Star Trek and Doc Who and all the G.Lukas saga", but actually you can only -find the potential- (=Ne) of something if you're somewhat interested in a specific area... or what would you know?

    Ne paired with Fi is closer to human matters, perhaps Ne paired with Ti is closer to the nerdy mental flights you've described.
    Huh, you're probably right. Too much of a generalization. Just in case, I was going by descriptions from this link I received earlier:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...s-by-Functions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee View Post
    Note sure it would help. You could try. Best also if you made a video of you talking with another person (not via media but present there) in front of the camera.
    Okay, so I'll try to make a video with another person when I get a chance. Not sure when that will be though! Would take a very specific friend to be able to do that with them.

    In the mean time, I made a new video, talking about something personal that happened to me in recent days. I probably would not be getting into this publicly if not for the sake of typing myself. I'm only touching on the subject and it already is a lot for me. This video is making me feel quite vulnerable so please be considerate with your comments --this is a general remark, towards all who read this thread.
    ETA: I'd probably be more comfortable with comments about how I talk and move rather than with those about what I'm saying.

    https://youtu.be/lMod0aAxpxQ
    Last edited by ToTheMoon; 01-10-2019 at 09:17 PM.

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    the 'vagueness' seems characteristically Ne. I know you wanted to not reveal too much as well, but I feel like for instance Se types would be less comfortable being that vague while talking about something. They seem to try to almost force something to be either black or white, not grey. In my eyes, at least.

    Anyways, I am kind of bad at distinguishing Ne or Si but I can tell when they are in general, valued. Si because it's lower dimensional for me. Ne because that's just what I do as well so how do I tell the difference. With Si types you kind of start slightly merging and the Si-Ne is hard to separate. Hence why it becomes hard for me to separate in practice as well, haha...

    EIIs have 2D Si...what do you think of EII as compared to IEE?

    This is kind of what I was referring to with regards to Ne:

    The individual is skilled at generating intellectual interest and curiosity in others and using others' curiosity to get them to do things. He easily sees parallels between different situations, areas of knowledge or skill, and people, and likes to establish contacts across different fields of knowledge and social groups, which allows him to be part of many things at once. He enjoys considering differing viewpoints and perspectives and seeing if they can be reconciled. He enjoys the beginning stages of just about anything - new projects, acquiring new skills, experiencing new people and relationships. Preparing for and launching something new is seen as having greater value than the process of experiencing what one already has and finishing what one has begun. The concept of "finishing" seems foreign to him. Instead of taking care to finish things and tie up all loose ends, he tends to drop things when he can't handle them any longer or realize that he has neglected them for too long (this might be equally related to suggestive introverted sensing).


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    From first video, I think EII. Fi and Si valuing. Ni Demo, not Ignoring. Unvalued Se. You remind me of Mia Wasikowska.

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by VenusRose View Post
    the 'vagueness' seems characteristically Ne. I know you wanted to not reveal too much as well, but I feel like for instance Se types would be less comfortable being that vague while talking about something. They seem to try to almost force something to be either black or white, not grey. In my eyes, at least.
    My vagueness, I think, often stems from my childish tendency to think that others can easily read me and already know what's in my head, or actually in my heart because I only have this tendency about my feelings (I can easily explain things when it comes to knowledge and don't experience any stress about it if my knowledge is well based). I feel that I have everything written on my face so people know anyway. If they already know, then to explain too much would be excessive and even more embarrassing. It's very awkward for me. Some part of me thinks I'm way more expressive than I really am, and being expressive about my feelings is ungggghhhhh let's just not. Just got an illumination here. Is my PoLR Fe? That would point to ISTp and INTp. Interesting. And not entirely impossible, really, if I think about it from the perspective of: the more I know, the better and more confident I feel but the more I feel, the more confused, afraid and overwhelmed I am (illumination here being mostly this: I have so many feelings all the time but I actually don't feel good with them most of that time!), and always turning to thinking/analyzing to cope.

    Anyways, I am kind of bad at distinguishing Ne or Si but I can tell when they are in general, valued. Si because it's lower dimensional for me. Ne because that's just what I do as well so how do I tell the difference. With Si types you kind of start slightly merging and the Si-Ne is hard to separate. Hence why it becomes hard for me to separate in practice as well, haha...
    Those dimensions you speak of are beyond my comprehension for the time being . I need more time to learn about this.

    EIIs have 2D Si...what do you think of EII as compared to IEE?
    I'll take your question from a specific angle. The beef I have with EII is that it has Ni as Demonstrative function and I can't ever see myself not valuing and ridiculing Ni.

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    [QUOTE=ToTheMoon;1315991]

    My vagueness, I think, often stems from my childish tendency to think that others can easily read me and already know what's in my head, or actually in my heart because I only have this tendency about my feelings (I can easily explain things when it comes to knowledge and don't experience any stress about it if my knowledge is well based). I feel that I have everything written on my face so people know anyway. If they already know, then to explain too much would be excessive and even more embarrassing. It's very awkward for me. Some part of me thinks I'm way more expressive than I really am, and being expressive about my feelings is ungggghhhhh let's just not.
    Oh, I understand. It's not that I don't. I was coming at it from Se-Ni perspective and they might find it "vague"; I find it perfectly comfortable and understandable.

    I think I do ridicule Fe more than I do Ni
    It's interesting to think about (demonstrative vs. ignoring).

    I think you may be F>T based on my impressions.


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    [QUOTE=VenusRose;1315998]
    Quote Originally Posted by ToTheMoon View Post

    Oh, I understand. It's not that I don't. I was coming at it from Se-Ni perspective and they might find it "vague"; I find it perfectly comfortable and understandable.
    Ah, okay.

    I think I do ridicule Fe more than I do Ni
    It's interesting to think about (demonstrative vs. ignoring).
    I ridicule Fe too because I feel I've mastered it enough to be able to see when it's overdone and I don't like it overdone.
    I don't think I've ever ridiculed Ni. I mean, I don't even ridicule TV fortune tellers because, you know, they actually might know something others don't. True story.

    I think you may be F>T based on my impressions.
    Hmm, okay, I'm not sure exactly how dynamic socionics is but I was wondering a thing. If a person is focused on developing their lower function and brings it into consciousness, that surely has to translate to the way they appear to others. On the other hand, it doesn't mean the integrated lower function will ever feel as natural and comfortable to the person as their top function(s).

    Side note: how do we actually judge our own function stacking and development? We need to use a function to do that so which one is it?
    Let's say it's Fi and we ping our emotional register to see how we feel about something (since many descriptions of functions focus on how a function feels to the user if it is in a respective position). The way I understand it, our Basic function is supposed to feel the most natural and comfortable for us to use. The Creative function may feel a bit uncomfortable but as we age and grow, it gets integrated with the basic function and I would presume it doesn't cause much trouble --or definitely not as much trouble as the Vulnerable function would.

    I've never had troubles with my T - I may be messy or bad at maths but it doesn't feel like a problem for me. If someone criticizes my knowledge or points out inconsistencies, I can usually take it pretty well and I'd rather learn more than assume I'm stupid and unable to improve. I accumulate knowledge easily in areas that interest me, I quickly become the 'expert' when I get into something. I can also easily convey that knowledge to others, without feeling any stress.

    On the other hand, I've been a very socially inept child and was constantly bullied for this and ignored by my peers and it felt like living hell. When I was about 15, I started to really work on this aspect of myself because I knew that otherwise I'd be alone forever and it felt terrifying (still does). I found a group of (solely male) nerdy friends that I was able to connect with through my strong T. I continued and still continue working on my F through all my life and I'm now objectively pretty good at it but I still don't feel confident about it. I still don't know how to behave in new situations, I'm awkward meeting new people, I am bad at expressing my feelings, I'm rarely calm when I experience feelings. I react like a child and feel hurt and like I can't ever get good at this when someone criticizes my F-related inadequacies. I'm developed enough to know where I'm inadequate and that's where I apply myself to improve my state. But it's still a lot of very hard work.

    I've never had to work on T-related stuff this much. It just came in and if I found I wasn't good at some part of it, it didn't matter much because I knew I was good at other parts and that would be enough.

    To sum it up, I don't think that lead-F means you appear emotional and lead-T means you don't. I think it's the way you handle these emotions and how you orientate around your feelings that's informative of your functions. I'd say it's logical to assume that someone who's comfortable with their F (inducing F top functions) would appear calm and collected while those who aren't as comfortable with it would appear, well... less that. That is assuming the situation called for F-related expertise vs T-related expertise. I guess if it were the other way round, then the T-comfortable person would appear calm and collected and the F-comfortable person could appear less so.

    Again, I'm not sure how dynamic this theory is but if I spent about 20 years of my life developing my inadequate F, I would think I would aready have it visible in the way I behave. Would it be possible that this is what you're picking up on?

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    mb LII

    love is the union of minds/souls when the borders between the individs become small. the own Self becomes below united We
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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