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Thread: Socionics Causes Pain

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    Default Socionics Causes Pain

    When we give someone a Socionics type, we type them according to a system of fixed cognitive traits.

    When we observe that the typed person diverges from the type we gave them in thought or action, we must develop an explanation for the divergence.

    Socionics is a system of fixed cognitive traits. Thus, our explanation for divergence must conflict with the Socionics typing.

    Therefore, when we hold on to the Socionics typing and our explanation for divergence, we possess conflicting beliefs.

    Conflicting beliefs cause cognitive dissonance, or mental discomfort caused by maintaining contradictory thoughts.

    Thus, attachment to Socionics causes discomfort because Socionics is a system of fixed cognitive traits that fails to explain divergence in thought or action.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    How come you turned into Singu since switching to Se-LSI? Ti-ILE fits you much better IMO.

    Embrace this type I have bestowed upon you my new initiate so Socionics can teach you its ways like it has to all of us. Repeat our mantra:

    "Socionics is not a cult!

    "Socionics is no longer a dating site!"

    And all will be well. The church of Socionics always gives the mistyped and dissenters a chance for redemption so they can be one of us.

    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Speaking in 2018 meme lingo, this post is big mood.

    No rest for the wicked if you're a walking socionical-existential-crisis. No rest for the EIIs as Sol will probably type you as something else anyway.
    No rest for /anyone/ since there will always be people disagreeing on your type, and you'll disagree WITH and AGAINST them, based on how compelling you deem their arguments to be.
    "You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it."

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    Telling someone they have typed themselves incorrectly is more important than living harmoniously. After all, if people have incorrect types, what is the use of Socionics?

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    The irony here being that LSIs don’t diverge in thought or action.

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    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Telling someone they have typed themselves incorrectly is more important than living harmoniously. After all, if people have incorrect types, what is the use of Socionics?
    I don't directly and confidently -assert- that someone has an incorrect type. I don't think I have ever been confident doing that.

    I do however, get bothered if anyone aggressively tries to 'right' things, preach a certain way as the only right way - and it doesn't make any sense. And it might even hurt people, or scare them away.

    I don't like that kind of behavior.

    As for types, people can type themselves whatever they like, but based on their typing patterns (such as, for example, typing as X one day and then suddenly the conflictor of X the next day...I tend to be skeptical of that) and how much they make sense to me, personally, I may unconsciously note those things. So of course, there will always be some subjectivity with this.

    I personally like finding those I feel like are on the same 'wavelength' if you will, as I am. Whatever type they are. So I am happy as long as I have someone who understands me, even if there is a lot of 'subjectivity' when it comes to socionics, otherwise.

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    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    I think Socionics has genuine negative effects on people that should be somewhat seriously considered.

    Socionics prophesizes that you will have either positive or negative relations with certain people, but it does not predict (i.e. it explains why).

    Socionics prophesizes that you will be successful or unsuccessful at utilizing certain innate abilities, but it does not predict.

    Is it justified to say that "F types" or "T types" or "S types" or "N types" are no good at doing certain things, and so therefore they "need the help of their duals"? (which is often thrown around as insults around here?). Is it justified to create so much self-doubts in people's abilities? Is it justified to say that the reason why people have so much negative relations, is because of something so innate and in-born and determined that they can't really do much about it?

    And to put the icing on the cake, is it justified to say "Well, this is all objectively true!", even though they have little convincing reason or arguments to backup those claims?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I think Socionics has genuine negative effects on people that should be somewhat seriously considered.

    Socionics prophesizes that you will have either positive or negative relations with certain people, but it does not predict (i.e. it explains why).

    Socionics prophesizes that you will be successful or unsuccessful at having certain innate abilities, but it does not predict.

    Is it justified to say that "F types" or "T types" or "S types" or "N types" are no good at doing certain things, and so therefore they "need the help of their duals"? (which is often thrown around as insults around here?). Is it justified to create so much self-doubts in people's abilities? Is it justified to say that the reason why people have so much negative relations, is because of something so innate and in-born and determined that they can't really do much about it?

    And to put the icing on the cake, is it justified to say "Well, this is all objectively true!", even though they have little convincing reason or arguments to backup those claims?
    I can agree with this. This is Socionics major shortcoming because it doesn't take non Socionics psychological factors that can override it. I learned this the hard way, it was so disappointing. Socionics needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    How come you turned into Singu since switching to Se-LSI? Ti-ILE fits you much better IMO.

    Embrace this type I have bestowed upon you my new initiate so Socionics can teach you its ways like it has to all of us. Repeat our mantra:

    "Socionics is not a cult!

    "Socionics is no longer a dating site!"

    And all will be well. The church of Socionics always gives the mistyped and dissenters a chance for redemption so they can be one of us.

    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    I don't know exactly what you mean by "turning into Singu." He and I aren't the same person. I do think he has some good points, though.

    If, by "turning into Singu", you mean that I'm criticizing Socionics - criticizing Socionics and typology systems isn't new to me. I've been doing it off and on for almost a decade, and did so even when I was entertaining the self-type ENTp here http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ing-Relativism and here http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...gious-Instinct. Before I joined this forum, I spent years arguing against assumptions in MBTI communities, so my tendency to go against the cultural climate of communities like this is more the rule than the exception. I'll admit that Socionics is a harder target to hit than MBTI because most of its source content remains obscured by the language barrier, making it more difficult to deconstruct. And I'll even go as far to say that in some ways it's more convincing than MBTI and at the very least fills a niche that MBTI fails to fill because it focuses on ITR and serve as an alternative model, but that doesn't mean that it's completely realistic or beyond criticism, nor does it mean that the way it's employed is beyond criticism.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    I don't directly and confidently -assert- that someone has an incorrect type. I don't think I have ever been confident doing that.

    I do however, get bothered if anyone aggressively tries to 'right' things, preach a certain way as the only right way - and it doesn't make any sense. And it might even hurt people, or scare them away.

    I don't like that kind of behavior.

    As for types, people can type themselves whatever they like, but based on their typing patterns (such as, for example, typing as X one day and then suddenly the conflictor of X the next day...I tend to be skeptical of that) and how much they make sense to me, personally, I may unconsciously note those things. So of course, there will always be some subjectivity with this.

    I personally like finding those I feel like are on the same 'wavelength' if you will, as I am. Whatever type they are. So I am happy as long as I have someone who understands me, even if there is a lot of 'subjectivity' when it comes to socionics, otherwise.
    I agree.

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    One thing I don’t like about Socionics is the way they basically say most of your relationships in life are going to be strained except for with your dual or a select few. Not only is that very unrealistic, it creates an impractically negative self-fulfilling prophecy effect.

    I don’t think ITRs should be labeled “good” and “bad” in such a way honestly. At the very least, the emphasis on this should be lessened. Rather I think ITRs should be described in detail based on the functional interactions being broken down, so people can use that to consider things to look out for and how to improve their relations with people of all types.

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    It is true that Socionics tends to present duals as being the only completely "good" relationship, and every other relationship falls off from that point to one degree or another. But it also describes the ITR's pretty well, and a person who is looking for good can easily find it.

    I started my Socionics education from a condition of complete ignorance. I thought every person was a special snowflake and bore no predictable similarities to anyone else.

    When I discovered Socionics, I began to realize that people do fall into definable categories, and this made the people around me a LOT more predictable, which made me feel more "in control" of the situation. I no longer felt as if I would find gravity reversed in the next room I entered.

    I gradually came to see that the inter-type relationships predicted by Socionics were, by and large, also true, but conflict was not inevitable if space was given to the other person. I also discovered that, while I get along very well with all the duals that I have met IRL, all duals are not all sweetness and light. I also came to understand that my normal (Delta-learned, Beta refined) approach to women was so skewed that my duals were repulsed by me. Which was quite a valuable lesson.

    For a while, after examining some now better-understood difficulties I had with out-of-Quadra types, I considered the advantages of building an all-Gamma shop, but quickly rejected the idea because other Quadras bring advantages to the table that Gamma does not have.

    I think I'm aided somewhat in getting along with people by being LIE. I'm not out to change anyone and I tend to view people as being useful (needed for some reason) or not. This means that, while I'm kind of unfeeling and unsympathetic, I can see every type as being valuable, as having useful virtues, and as being worthy of my respect.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-29-2018 at 05:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    When I discovered Socionics, I began to realize that people do fall into definable categories, and this made the people around me a LOT more predictable, which made me feel more "in control" of the situation. I no longer felt as if I would find gravity reversed in the next room I entered.
    I’ve always been fairly sociable and charming due to Fe HA, but Socionics has enhanced it and has helped me out a LOT here in terms of confidence. I’ve basically been able to enter and survive in high society in a completely different cultural context because of it.

    I gradually came to see that the inter-type relationships predicted by Socionics were, by and large, true, but conflict was not inevitable if space was given to the other person. I also discovered that, while I get along very well with all the duals that I have met IRL, all duals are not all sweetness and light.
    Agreed on this, and the all types being valuable stuff.

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    I think that at the most, you either want to have certain kind of relationships with people, or you don't. Everything else is just self-fulfilling prophecies. I think that for the most part, human beings are capable of making free decisions, and therefore much of the future is actively being created by people, and not merely being foretold.

    If you think that you really desperately want to have a good relationship with someone for some reason, then you will keep trying to (even if that's at the cost of your own well-being, but that would be your own choice). If you don't care to, then you won't. I think it's as simple as that. There's nothing in this life that's determined in strict ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    I think that at the most, you either want to have certain kind of relationships with people, or you don't. Everything else is just self-fulfilling prophecies. I think that for the most part, human beings are capable of making free decisions, and therefore much of the future is actively being created by people, and not merely being foretold.

    If you think that you really desperately want to have a good relationship with someone for some reason, then you will keep trying to (even if that's at the cost of your own well-being, but that would be your own choice). If you don't care to, then you won't. I think it's as simple as that. There's nothing in this life that's determined in strict ways.
    I think that different types having different qualities and strengths and weaknesses thus attracting you to want to get closer to them in varying degrees is part of the basis of ITR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    what does this mean...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I think that different types having different qualities and strengths and weaknesses thus attracting you to want to get closer to them in varying degrees is part of the basis of ITR.
    I think that there are perhaps people that you "naturally" get along with or don't get along with, although we don't quite know why. But it would be interesting to try to figure that out. I think that for the most part, it's because you're similar to them in some ways, and perhaps therefore strengthening tribalism.

    I don't think you can quite smugly say that "Well I, as a free-thinking Socionist, can see all the patterns of human behavior and therefore I'm above it all, but for the rest of those unthinking fools, their behaviors are determined perfectly by Socionics and ITR. But not me."

    People are also free-thinking agents that are actively determining their own choices, whether you believe in Socionics, or not. And hence, I don't think that human behavior is exactly predictable in such ways.

    And so here's an interesting thought: Does having the knowledge of Socionics (and other psychological theories) change the behavior in humans?

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    but what was it in response to...?
    the link is too general haha, but i think i get the idea behind it, from googling it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
    I can't continue. I don't want to have tears just for replying this question.
    How I feel about conversing with Singu in general LOL

    Sometimes though tears of laughter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    It's more like the conflict of meaning. People need meaning but meaning is inherently restrictive because it limits possible perspectives. So it's a catch-22 that makes people anxious.

    So you have a few choices:
    1) Deny the meaning exists
    2) Accept the meaning as-is
    3) Transform the meaning through an act of will

    #3 is the resolution in many cases

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    everything can cause pain if you use it unwisely.

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    then, why do you care so much about conflict, pain and discomfort? Betas embrace pain and surpass it with determination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atari View Post
    then, why do you care so much about conflict, pain and discomfort? Betas embrace pain and surpass it with determination.
    Yes, "Betas" do.

    ...Who are the "Betas"?

    Whomever that embraces pain and surpass it with determination.

    ...Isn't that circular?

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    Singu just because people are running circles around you that doesn’t make everything circular

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    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Yes, "Betas" do.

    ...Who are the "Betas"?

    Whomever that embraces pain and surpass it with determination.

    ...Isn't that circular?
    you are the betas singu. you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atari View Post
    then, why do you care so much about conflict, pain and discomfort?
    I think it's fun to start threads like this and this to watch people flip out when the mission statement of the forum and the primary content of the forum is being challenged. I've always done shit like this wherever I'm at and always will. People need to be shaken up - not just for my own pleasure, but to move things forward.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    I think it's fun to start threads like this and this to watch people flip out when the mission statement of the forum and the primary content of the forum is being challenged. I've always done shit like this wherever I'm at and always will. People need to be shaken up - not just for my own pleasure, but to move things forward.
    answer to my question, singu2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    but what was it in response to...?
    the link is too general haha, but i think i get the idea behind it, from googling it.
    I was simply repeating @Raver’s use of it earlier in the thread, being in favour of that sort of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    The irony here being that LSIs don’t diverge in thought or action.
    Oh there is an interview where Gulenko explains LSI. It goes like this: "Once LSI's have fixed their facts it will stay like that regardless of reality".
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Atari View Post
    answer to my question, singu2.

    In my view, pain is a necessary part of life and something to be overcome. If you're not overcoming pain, then you're not growing. Hence, why I'm here, despite disagreeing with central premises users tend to work with. I don't tend to get along well who disagree with me about the value of pain because they tend to stay within their comfort zones.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    In my view, pain is a necessary part of life and something to be overcome. If you're not overcoming pain, then you're not growing. Hence, why I'm here, despite disagreeing with central premises users tend to work with.
    > Socionics causes pain
    > Pain is a necessary part of life
    > Socionics is ... life


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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Oh there is an interview where Gulenko explains LSI. It goes like this: "Once LSI's have fixed their facts it will stay like that regardless of reality".
    Seems like a proof that I've typed my dad as LSI correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    When we give someone a Socionics type, we type them according to a system of fixed cognitive traits.
    The type exists objectively as other human's traits.
    Problems are from the lack of knowledge, from mistakes, from inappropriate usage of the knowledge.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    you guys are just saying that because youre sei

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    The type exists objectively as other human's traits.
    Problems are from the lack of knowledge, from mistakes, from inappropriate usage of the knowledge.
    Socionics models haven't been quantified in objective terms, so you have no scientific way of saying they exist objectively. Can you point to anything that reliably represents a type in the real world? No, you can't, because Socionists haven't based their models on neuroscientific research that identifies root causes for cognition and behavior. They lack theories to clearly illustrate why Socionics is supposed to work.

    Through correlations and thorough introspection, we can only guess Socionics models serve as approximations for real traits.

    I think it's stupid that you think problems stem from lack of knowledge on one hand, but then claim that available theories such as those from Gulenko and Reinin are bullshit. All the while, most of the core information about Socionics is untranslated. So, according to your program, American users are effectively left with the option of treating you as an authority. It's similar to what cults do in that they tout some kind of hidden knowledge while keeping it just out of reach just to string members along and keep them influenced.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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