Thank You for sharing that very personal and illustrative story with us, @squark . I appreciate both Your patience with them, as well as Your methods. You were right to endure their glares, as Yours was the lasting lesson.
Thank You for sharing that very personal and illustrative story with us, @squark . I appreciate both Your patience with them, as well as Your methods. You were right to endure their glares, as Yours was the lasting lesson.
"We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."
Model A: ESI-Se-
DCNH: Dominant
Enneagram: 1w2, 2w1, 6w7
Instinctual Variant: Sx/So
Indeed, you may not be able to change the behavior by just knowing what causes that behavior, because what you're trying to do is to not have to do that behavior! In short, you're trying to create a new behavior that is currently unknown to you. And the problem is that you currently don't know how to, because you haven't figured out a way of knowing how. So that may be where the "repetitive compulsion" comes from, which you can only understand in hindsight. But while you were doing that, you may simply had been looking for a solution of a kind.Originally Posted by Animal
I would think that the reason why that "works", is that it may negate the trauma by having been countered by a positive or neutral experience. It seems to be a human thing to just keep expecting the same thing to happen that has happened before. It's understandable that if you had a traumatic experience, then you might want to avoid it, even if it's not entirely rational to do so. Or you might deliberately seek it to be proven wrong. Nevertheless, people can't quite intellectually understand it, but they can only experience it.
I think the interesting thing about humans is that they try to imagine doing something in the future that has never been done before. So perhaps the answer to the question "Why does the person keep reliving his traumas?", is because of a failure to do something where he would no longer have to live through that trauma, and only because he does not yet know how to. This can't exactly be understood in a strict causal sense of analyzing the past. It's true that the trauma is caused by childhood abuse or whatever. But we'd also have to get at what the person is trying to do in the future, which is presumably to live in peace and not having to live through that trauma.
Last edited by Singu; 01-03-2019 at 12:31 AM.
The only motivation that works is praising someone if they do well and ignoring or correcting someone if they don't do well. No one's a pathetic no-good loser who shouldn't've been born until you call them one. Maybe some people should be called one, but not just for learning a task wrong. Jesus!
"Did you know some people don't have to get their acts together? Maybe you should consider suicide while your humiliation still hasn't gotten as bad as it could!" ...Now, does that really work? No, it just makes people with no self-esteem do lousy things for you. I don't know why you'd want to be that person. It's more rewarding to have actually competent slaves in my correct opinion, and especially not ones that are likely to off themselves without warning when you need them to lick your boots clean or something.
Title was misleading. OP was not about tough love at all. I have had an employer claim to love me or the idea of me. He was 30 years older and a creep. I was a teen. It didn't look like the video. More like, "I can make this job easy or it can be hard". I left without collecting my last paycheck. Seriously dude... trying to pull that for a minimum wage job... He thought he could apply pressure to a kid who needed the job. I didn't need it. I found something else soon after with much better pay.
Bad employers are what made me to decide on self employment.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I think tough love is one of the best ways to motivate people who are so far afield of success they're in the next state, but for someone whose difficulties are not around being crazy and needing structure, but are around just making mistakes or being indecisive, tough love won't do a whole lot besides encourage you to hem in your thinking.
I didn't watch vid but from past experience it doesn't work on me at all. It'll just really piss me off and make me combative and defensive and make me strongly dislike the person who attempts it on me.
Most of the environments where there is a lot of tough love aren't healthy in the first place imho
Anyway I thought about it, I find though love just fine when it's during a task, like a trainer telling you sucked at doing something. I find it kind of weird when it comes to your life in general, like someone saying you will amount to nothing bla bla
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
What are you doing if I may ask? I'm desperately looking for a way out of being a wage slave to corporations but I'm struggling to find alternatives.
It can feel quite unsettling but it actually yields results. I think I need a certain amount of external pressure.
Last edited by gone; 02-16-2019 at 09:07 PM.
Motivation? No. Teaching? Yes. Why do you think I am a good driver? Why do you think I avoid driving long distances?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
Fuck no. Though, “tough love” is actually needed for certain people out there. I think tough love should only be given as a last resort when someone is on the verge of beating a total dipshit asshole. I think it is better to be soft and kind love but some people really need a hit to the head with a baseball bat to get it.
I don’t do well with it. I need some empathy/sympathy then followed by some encouragement. That moves me. Tough love= criticism. That leads to me naturally going after myself then fixing the problem. Aka, I need soft love.
The Glengarry Glen Ross clip is just typical Beta communication lol. That's how a lot of SLEs try to boost morale.
I would be motivated to succeed but I don't like being talked to this way, and I wouldn't want a job (although I have had them) with this sort of pressure to perform.
The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.
The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".
No tough love does not work on me. I see it as an excuse to treat someone like shit in the name of motivation.
Chronic "grass is always greener" syndrome
the example video isn't really 'tough love', just basically tough toughness because capitalism is based on competition etc.
It has never worked on me personally. Compassion and genuine empathy have been the only things that made me do something the other person wanted me to do. If a person treats me this way I will backstab them and sabotage them and destroy them and their reputation, and reveal to others what a shitty person they really are and it will backfire against them no matter how much external success they've had. It has been said before the person in a way risks being vulnerable when they do this- as if they were true sociopaths they would just immediately discard of you. That is very true in a way which is why if they do it I will just fuck them over because I hate this sort of thing so much. If somebody hurts me, I hurt them back even worse. I'm not always proud of myself for being this way but that's just how I am.
I never make the first strike, but if the first strike is made against me- I times it by at least three. My own personal wiccan code.
This reminds me of that Devil Wears Prada scene. ((again 'love' has nothing to do with it, just how capitalism works etc.)) Miranda Priestly could have easily fired Andrea on the spot for being a naive little bitch- but instead she took the time to harshly school her in front of others. Not necessarily because she really cared and saw potentinal ((that's how an abuse victim would cope with being talked down to like that- it's kind of a sweet lie you tell yourself to side with the abuser & it's a coping mechanism)) - but because she wanted to hear herself talk and boost her ego with how much she knows. And probably because she knew it would humiliate her even more than just going 'You're fired!' It might look to others that she's doing it for Andrea's own benefit- but not really at all, because at the end of the book Andrea ended up hating and not really respecting Miranda much at all anyway didn't she.
I don't consider the movie canon anyway because they defanged her in ways that the book never did.
"tough love" is an oxymoron anyway. Love is naturally soft and sweet. If your heart is made of stone and bitter for whatever reason it might not get this. I don't know about saccharine- to me saccharine is kinda like when IEE's try to do their 4D demonstrative Fe.
I mean it's sick but this is common in people who were abused by their family members as well- they will make excuses for their abuser of why they were treated so poorly - and sugar coat/minimize the abuse.
You do obviously need to be firm at times though - don't get me wrong. Both in the business world and in your personal relationships. It's healthy to have boundaries with people and to make it clear how they are allowed to talk to you. But none of these capitalist egos talking down to their employees has anything to do with love LOL.
I don't know why people think IEIs actually enjoy somebody being a genuine asshole. I think the SLEs I knew- they always seemed really nice to me. They were just shitty to other people. Probably because the other people deserved it some way cuz they were being too arrogant about something. Or they were unfortunately in the way of a SLE goals. I never seem to have been in the way of their goals so they never seem that asshole-ish to me usually. ((the ones I know personally, not public figures...))
Why the fuck would anybody enjoy being mistreated? I had this horrible LSE social worker tell me that before that didn't like me, before I banished her to Hell. "bandd likes being mistreated." What the hell? The cunt was projecting (or trying to twist things around so she could get away with being an abuser) - because I sure as hell don't. what fucking masochistic fuck actually likes abuse? So fucking weird. Just because I'm shy and sweet and can be submissive doesn't mean I like real abuse. What the fucking fuck creepos. This is why I wrote that 16types Adventurs chapter 'Social Workers have no Soul.'
It depends why he said that... If it was to destroy, the intent is felt. If it wasn't then there is a wider range of what intent can be interpreted... Though I'd say there is a threshold between intention and impact, after which the pain caused ends up outweighing the reason, but this example shouldn't come close to that.
But still, if the intent was to enable me to succeed, it still may not work, because I'm too afraid of being a lost cause. So it doesn't matter, this question, in the face of personal neurosis.
But tough love, when the intent is clear, not to harm or to cast aside--is that possible? Or does tough love always threaten the relationship itself?
I know that there are really bad examples of tough """"love"""" out there. But I know personally, I need a slap in the face every once and a while. I will get into self-destructive moods and I will spiral down into self-pity. There is a way to empathetically but firmly pull people out of this.
The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.
The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".
Using force is never love. Lots of bs because someine thought they knew better than me. Laziness doesnt exist there are Reasons, some times not understood or even conceived by the one himself.
The only proponrnts of tough love are Kids Who never grew up to make their own decisions. They want someone else to force them because they lack forethought and inner guide. If u had strong sense of self and meaning u would never be fine with being coerced. The shitty trope of im hurting u for ur own good.
Last edited by VewyScawwyNawcissist; 09-10-2021 at 04:14 AM.
"Serious" tough love like the one in the OP video don't work on me. Although if the demands are reasonable or expected within my context then I would at least try to improve.
On the other hand "non-serious" tough love, like mockery works pretty well on me for some reason lol. I remember back in school a few guys used to make fun of me for being a nerd/weirdo/out of shape (all were SLE/LSI lol). Anyways I thought it was funny and eventually it lead me to improving myself a lot (especially in terms of physique and confidence). On one hand I wanted to prove myself physically capable, and on the other hand I began to embrace my nerd interests instead of trying to hide them.
Likewise I have a bad habit of making fun of people for laughs. Some kids back in school thought of me as a bully, but I thought of it as friendly banter.
I agree with what @VewyScawwyNawcissistsaid above: "[proponents of tough love] want someone else to force them because they lack forethought and inner guide." Lacking forethought and inner guide describes me to a tee. However in my case, my parents gave me way too much freedom, which ironically made me "lose my way" in life. Parents ought to help their kids figure out what they want in life and what paths there are available out there.
Imagine teaching Kids how the works works. U werent given too much freedom ur parents Just did one option and kept doing it because they didnt give a shit
Just find a job and stop whining lol entitled snowflake. They didnt know how it works either. If u dont like it then change ur feelings cuz no one cares. lifes tough they nafe sacrifice to give u food and shelter. U do ur part now and give back
Be grateful for the opportunity.
Tough love can work but like most things it depends on multiple factors.
1. The person giving tough love can't have contributed to the reason why the recipient is receiving it. For example, a parent can't give tough love to their child for not having friends when the parent themselves made the decision to move the child away from their friends and to a neighborhood with no life. Similarly, a father can't give his son tough love for not being the man he never raised him to be but rather hoped that he would be. I'd be very careful with the "Roof over your head, food in your gut" narrative that diminishes the role good parents (mainly fathers as men are typically the main breadwinners) play in the lives of their children. A parent should not only be providing physically for a child but also teaching their child how to be and also demonstrating it themselves. Anyway, this goes into my next point.
2. The person giving tough love must be living how they're telling you to live. Anything else is just hypocrisy from one of those "Do as I say not as I do" people that shouldn't have children to begin with.
3. The person giving tough love can't have some kind of past. Everyone's not perfect and we all make mistakes, sure, but there are repeated mistakes that aren't really "mistakes" but are vices and there a mistakes so serious that you only have to make them once.
4. The person giving tough love has to understand that different people/generations have different struggles. This is where the whole "OK Boomer" meme came from - an older generation not bothering to understand the modern day struggles of the youth but still choosing to voice criticism. And it's not just age, it happens across race, gender and sexuality as well.
5. The person giving tough love has to be at least get out of the way, and if they don't then recognize it for what it is - a psychological attack or a narcissistic rant to help them feel better about themselves.
Feel free to add more if you think I missed any.
The original post contains this underlying assumption that tough love consists of insults. There's a difference between having tough love and being an asshole.
For some people, and in some specific kinds of scenarios, "tough love" is also equally tough on the person who is giving it because they don't want to have to take that approach. Such would more than likely prevent someone from going too far. When someone's actions stem from anger or frustration in addition to genuinely trying to do what is best for the other person, lines are much more likely to be blurred.
Don't get me wrong, when it's coming from some people it certainly can consist of insults and such even if they are well-meaning, especially if they are imperceptive about how much "toughness" is appropriate to use or if they are unskilled with the emotional or psychological aspects of things. That's just not the way tough love love in general works when it is done well.
I dish it out to people who need it (and have succeded changing/improving the situation of people, sometimes to my detriment), but I don't like receiving it, mostly because I typically know exactly what I'm doing incorrectly and why. It just demoralizes me. Many times it's just being on the receiving end of a narcissist's tirade, that doesn't give a crap about you, to put down someone and feel better about themselves. You can also simply tell someone without scolding them.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
