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Thread: "The Collapse of the Illusions of Socionics?.. No - Typology!"

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    Default "The Collapse of the Illusions of Socionics?.. No - Typology!"

    Google translated from:

    Ermak V.D.

    The collapse of the illusions of socionics? .. No - typology!

    Some impressions about the Dnepropetrovsk experiment

    In April 1999, a grand socionic experiment took place in Dnepropetrovsk, designated by the organizers of CPT-99, whose goal is to assess the “convergence of the results of the definition of various socionics” (the goal formula proposed by the organizers of the experiment) ... The result of the experiment was what was expected of literate researchers - almost complete lack of convergence of results! .. Indeed, 10 versions of the TIM of the psyche “typed” in 26 experts or 8 versions - in 16 experts - this is “cool”! ..The analysis of the experimental results and the conclusions to be done, but more importantly, it seems to me, lies on the surface - the collapse of illusions about the ease and, more importantly, loyalty to the so-called of feature approach to identify the type of information metabolism (TIM) of the psyche (tipoopredeleniyu) that (approach) used in the experiment, according to the argument in the discussions in groups, almost all, including representatives of the Dnepropetrovsk school typing [1] ...
    It is well known and included in naukovedcheskie dictionaries [2] - the use of signs for the classification of certain objects is permissible only under certain mandatory conditions, chief among which is the semantic ambiguity (clarity of meaning) and the independence of symptoms [1]. Neither one nor the other is not performed for a known set of typical symptoms today! ..


    Neither the signs of Reinin, in fact, introduced by Aushra Augustinavichiute [3], nor the scientific-like "... tomias", introduced by semi-philosophical meters [4], nor the speculative-ideological "methodological reflections" about dichotomies [5], nor the "fallowing aspects" [6] do not satisfy the above and a number of other elementary general scientific requirements of classification, and, therefore, are unsuitable for building a typology of the psyche of real people. And if we also take into account that man, as a multi-parameter open, highly non-linear and hysteresis system, has absolutely amazing adaptive abilities, it becomes clear -It is impossible to classify and build a typology of the psyche of real people based on a feature-based approach! .. This was shown by the CPT99 experiment ... As a particular, this also leads to the sad conclusion for many enthusiasts that it is impossible to build a test for the classification of the human psyche, and therefore for type determination.


    It would seem that the provisions of the scientific methodology cited above are completely elementary and should be known to people trying to do any science ... But ... no, both old and new socionics stubbornly “type” and “diagnose” using unsuitable “dichotomies” and “scales”, “Loose” in meaning, non-transparent in content, ambiguous signs, develop ornate tests on their basis (the ignorant - “... they could not, and we will do it! ..”). The result is a senseless variety of “type definitions”, a search for “consensus” by voting (!?) Signs (as one of the members of the supervisory board tried to introduce during the discussion of CPT99 experiments). The result is the discrediting of what they themselves are doing ... And the most annoying - some seemingly literate “meters” from socionics “sanctify” all these fallacies of neophytes and simply ignoramuses with their names, defaming fast-growing books and pseudo-popular articles in the eyes of the socionics surrounding academic science. In today'ssocionic movement of some "authorities", has long pursued asceticism in socionics, cultivate illusions - "Socionics - this is just", "why should we model ..!?" or reasoning like - "dichotomous approach - is promising ...", "test - it is solidly , scientifically ... ”, etc., deceiving and disfiguring, thus, mastering the fundamentals of science to the second generation ... Simplified popularization, primitivizing the socionic paradigm, the“ sin ”of which is still drawn from Aushra Augustinavichiute, now costs socionics [2] ... It seems , even for the “uninitiated” see another sad result of the CPT99 experiment -the collapse of illusions about the possibility of doing without models in the study of the psyche ... True, some meters, judging by the publications, did not understand anything even after participating in the experiment ...


    But before the April conference and the CPT99 experiment, many declared knowledge of the model of informational metabolism types (TIM) of the psyche! .. And the President of the Dnepropetrovsk Socionics and Social Technologies Club V.L. Pavlov back in 1997 (see "SCh", № 2 (2), 1997) wrote: "... in practical typing, it is desirable to use the method of analyzing information flows (meaning the method of aspects and models? .. - V.E.), and it is undesirable to use dichotomous testing signs ... And it does not matter, this is a" canonical "basic Jung's dichotomies or any other. The fact of the unreliability of the dichotomous approach is important - therefore, by the way, all tests fail without exception. ” [3]. And yet, in the course of the experiment, the CPT99 clearly visible to the overwhelming majority of the participants turned out to be a very weak idea of the very essence of models and modeling, not to mention knowledge of the types of psycho-psychological models, which (knowledge!) Was often replaced by fashionable words - "System", "function", etc.
    Socionics with its natural-science, systemic approach to man and his psyche, society and his societal psyche intrudes into the humanitarian field of research, where the generally accepted and aggressively defended "Aborigines" is a verbal-manipulative, descriptive approach with a free interpretation (and often and without any interpretation! a) concepts and terms, the complete absence of parametric descriptions, etc. A natural consequence of this situation, unfortunately, was a lack of understanding by the social movement,So far, socionics is actually, a simple truth - knowledge of the model is not only knowledge of how the “squares”, “circles”, and “triangles” are drawn, and certainly not an arbitrary invention of mental functions and their purpose [5] ... Know the model TIM psyche - is to understand the origin and destination of the system of mental functions ( " function functions " ) , the blocks and the overall model , as well as the (parametric structure of the " work programs " of mental functions) and that (the semantics of information aspects) they process [7,8,9,10] ...


    Dnepropetrovsk Club of Socionics and Social Technologies, headed by its President V.L. Pavlov did a great preparatory work and indeed for the first time in socionics carried out such an ambitious experiment ... And the result of the experiment can not blame the organizers .. The above seems to me the chief, the most significant result of the experiment SRT99, namely - experiments revealed that the vast majority consider themselves to socionists actually engaged tipovedeniem real people of this or that type of mentality ,not very different from what the so-called. Jungian and the West, and we have, " simplified the " beyond recognition and inapplicable humanitarian scientism and word creation genius finds KG Jung ... And the almost complete absence of “convergence of the results of the type definition of various socionics” is a reliable description of the capabilities of the classification, characteristic approach of tipologists, even famous ones, who consider themselves socionics for some reason ... I could not, did not want to, was scared, etc.) - they would have done the same thing! ..


    So, where do socionics ?! .. And at anything .. Indeed, engaged - engaged during the experiment tipovedeniem , and on the last day of the conference, summing up the preliminary results of the experiment, VL Pavlov says drama - "... in sotsionike no concept that could serve as the basis of reliable tipoopredeleniya ..." (!?!). In socionics from its very beginning has a robust concept of modeling the mind, and therefore tipoopredeleniya with any given loyalty - this is one of the advantages of models at all .. Developing ideas! KG cabin boyand A. Kempinsky , A . Augustinavichiute laid in the basis of socionics typology psyche TIM models [11], rather than a typology of real people of this or that type of mentality in tipovedenii . Tipoopredelenie in socionics is a consistent implementation of the two procedures - selection hypothesis TIM psyche and verification of the model TIM psyche - and has adequate procedures within the meaning of the name - the identification of psyche TIM.To identify the psyche TIM with any degree of fidelity to need to know the model of psyche TIM and semantics of information aspects - nothing can be done! - this is the instrumental science Socionics ... Only after positive identification of psyche TIM, filling the resulting model of a real, vital information, we are able to explore the model (analyze, "play", to predict others.) The problems of a real person, for the sake of help to which all this was started ... Dilemma - to believe or not to believe the result of the definition of someone from the socionics is identical to the dilemma - he knows the TIM model of the psyche and aspects of the information flow or doesn't know ...


    There are several technical and technological observations which, I think, can be considered a useful outcome of the experiment SRT99 - because "learn from mistakes" ... smart people ... The fact is that, in spite of a long and thorough collaborative development methodology SRT99 experiment failed avoid some of the incorrectness of the experiment ...


    At the stage of development of the methodology, the question was discussed: how to type typically procedurally (the terminology of the CPT99 Method) - sequentially, in parallel or in parallel? no less, apparently, due to the limited time of the experiment (thirteen typed in five days) and a number of other reasons, the organizers had to implement a parallel-sequential version, breaking the typing into two groups of 12-18 experts com in each group. However, the result of the experiment exceeded the worst fears! .. The psychological pressure of a large group of experts turned out to be too great for many typed - almost everyone was in a very tense state, some could not stand the interview (45 minutes) ... The preliminary psychological training, which the organizers claimed, underwent typed, or special techniques in interview process ... It is hopeless to expect unconstrained, natural reactions of those tested (typed) in such conditions! It is quite obvious that such a situation distorted the result of typing in the strongest way, especially, for experts who were not very experienced in the “art of conversation” and the methods of choosing hypotheses. The well-known rule has been confirmed again and again - some could not cope with the interview (45 minutes) ... Neither the preliminary psychological preparation, which, according to the organizers, underwent typed, nor special techniques in the interview process ... helped to wait for unforced, natural reactions of subjects (typed) in such conditions - hopeless! It is quite obvious that such a situation distorted the result of typing in the strongest way, especially, for experts who were not very experienced in the “art of conversation” and the methods of choosing hypotheses. The well-known rule has been confirmed again and again - some could not cope with the interview (45 minutes) ... Neither the preliminary psychological preparation, which, according to the organizers, underwent typed, nor special techniques in the interview process ... helped to wait for unforced, natural reactions of subjects (typed) in such conditions - hopeless! It is quite obvious that such a situation distorted the result of typing in the strongest way, especially, for experts who were not very experienced in the “art of conversation” and the methods of choosing hypotheses. The well-known rule has been confirmed again and again - no special techniques in the interview process ... It is hopeless to expect unconstrained, natural reactions of the test subjects (typed) in such conditions! It is quite obvious that such a situation distorted the result of typing in the strongest way, especially, for experts who were not very experienced in the “art of conversation” and the methods of choosing hypotheses. The well-known rule has been confirmed again and again - no special techniques in the interview process ... It is hopeless to expect unconstrained, natural reactions of the test subjects (typed) in such conditions! It is quite obvious that such a situation distorted the result of typing in the strongest way, especially, for experts who were not very experienced in the “art of conversation” and the methods of choosing hypotheses. The well-known rule has been confirmed again and again -no more than two (maximum - three!) experts per one type! .. How to organize an experiment like CPT99, statistically reliable and psychologically acceptable, and even at a reasonable time, one has to think about such a requirement ... It’s only clear that such public identifications are unfortunately, all too common, do not give anything good, and only discredit and socionics, and even tipovedenie ... Another negative result of too large a group of experts, each of whom strove to ask as many questions was possible should almost I can not be verified modelsupposed by an expert of TIM of the psyche - because of the time pressure, it was not possible to clarify the answers typed and many experts actually stopped on the very first hypothesis ... This even “scattered” the version of the TIM of the psyche ...


    In the experiment manifested itself another phenomenon, a hypothesis which the author of this article for a long time and has repeatedly expressed (at the conferences of 1993 and 1997., At seminars, schools, etc.), but failed to take it into account in the Methodology SRT99 experiment ... This phenomenon of age stages of development of TIM psyche.Without dwelling on the hypothesis itself and its details, we only note that young people aged about 17-21 years turned out to be typed in the experiments, and according to the above-mentioned hypothesis, at this age the human psyche seems to “stay” mainly the super-ego block of the model of the type of psyche, only occasionally, uncertainly going out on its own block of ego. Written by participating in the experiment, has repeatedly noted this phenomenon, but for others tipirovschikov (experts) who are not familiar with the hypothesis of age stages of development of psyche TIM and parametric dimension model of mental functions ,The responses and behavior of the super-EGO typed by the block could be perceived as normative and uncertain operation of the EGO block of a model of some TIM of the psyche, which naturally led to a typology error ... Analysis of the versions of the TIM of the psycho in the preliminary results of the CPT99 experiment seems to confirm this hypothesis Of course, he feels guilty that he has not yet published the relevant work and promises to correct in the near future, but it just so happened ... Knowledge of the age stages of the development of the psyche in connection with the TIM model ps Ichiki, as shown by the experience of the author and his students, allows you to reliably identify the type of psyche of people of any age, beginning with 2-3 years.


    In conclusion, I would like to express my gratitude to the Dnipropetrovsk socionics and social technologies club for the good organization of the conference and experiment. Let us hope that a comprehensive analysis of the results of the experiment will allow the socionic public to draw the right conclusions and go on a truly scientific path to the further development of socionics so that by the next conference and experiment, at least take a step from typology to socionics and not confuse one with the other.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    As in that experiment the matches were higher than accidental, then the used typing methods are not accidental and hence can be improved. Types as they are understood should to exist.

    All real typing matches calculations (including my videobloggers experiment on socioforum in 2015) made up today shaw the similar situation - low (<50%), but significantly higher than accidental values.

    Also my IR test gives the results which are above the accidental chaose. Duality, good/bad IR hypothesis seems to be correct as one of important factors.

    Socionics theory has some experimental basis.
    But today methods and peoples skills are not good for practical usage, in average. Too many mistakes and disagreements in typings. And too much of baseless bs theory is used by someones with the label "Socionics" (Reinin's traits is the example), what should worsen the typing accuracy.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    As in that experiment the matches were higher than accidental, then the used typing methods are not accidental and hence can be improved. Types as they are understood should to exist.

    All real typing matches calculations (including my videobloggers experiment on socioforum in 2015) made up today shaw the similar situation - low (<50%), but significantly higher than accidental values.

    Also my IR test gives the results which are above the accidental chaose. Duality, good/bad IR hypothesis seems to be correct as one of important factors.

    Socionics theory has some experimental basis.
    But today methods and peoples skills are not good for practical usage, in average. Too many mistakes and disagreements in typings. And too much of baseless bs theory is used by someones with the label "Socionics" (Reinin's traits is the example), what should worsen the typing accuracy.
    "All real typing matches calculations." You have no falsifiable basis for drawing this conclusion; for all we know, it's an assumption built on confirmation bias.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Socionics isn't falsifiable. Been saying this a long time. Lol. You either see it or you don't.

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    Nothing will change the minds of the true believers. Evidence matters not. Confirmation bias and wishful thinking for a flawed system is what keeps things like this alive.

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    I've been saying many of the same things for years. Basically, we have all created a fantasy mind space to play in. This realization is just as mind blowing as when some of you found out Santa didn't exist and that God doesn't exist.

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