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Thread: Godheadmates

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    I keep thinking about how I can never find a theologian who can successfully argue the trinity isn't polytheistic. I need to find more theologians who aren't just sheepdogs perhaps. However, the only coherent description of how there's one God in three people and this isn't polytheism makes it sound like God just has multiple personalities and the trinity are God's Godheadmates, like originally there was just God the Father and He got so annoyed at His children for never doing what He said He formed two more personalities from the trauma and since no one can be God's therapist Christian civilization seemingly became completely dysfunctional, or "What do you think about Western civilization? It would be a nice idea." This needs a lot of explanation to be refuted. Since this is largely a psychology forum, I decided it would be an interesting topic here, because even without the theology maybe if it's possible someone could at least justify it being OK and not disordered for God to have His alters in mainstream trinitarian Christianity.

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    ...Wasn't Jung's whole thing purportedly the integration of the psyche? Then why did he just keep trying to add people to his trinity and make his infamous quadrinity?

    And here we are in socionics, which split the quadrinity into eight and then eight into sixteen.

    Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!

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    Theologians can't explain the Trinity period. Even Aquinas after going on autistically for hundreds of pages trying to prove the existence of God basically threw his hands up, said essentially "we believe this because the Church says it," and moved on. The doctrine only makes "sense" in light of ancient Hellenistic philosophy, and virtually no one (definitely not myself) knows anything approaching enough knowledge of that context to be able to understand the doctrine, especially not theologians who for some reason generally don't have any interest in antiquity except to the extent it relates very directly to Christianity, IME. That Christians are expected to profess belief in a statement they can't comprehend seems nuts to me.

    You might find Jung's Answer to Job interesting though if you're interested in this kind of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Theologians can't explain the Trinity period. Even Aquinas after going on autistically for hundreds of pages trying to prove the existence of God basically threw his hands up, said essentially "we believe this because the Church says it," and moved on. The doctrine only makes "sense" in light of ancient Hellenistic philosophy, and virtually no one (definitely not myself) knows anything approaching enough knowledge of that context to be able to understand the doctrine, especially not theologians who for some reason generally don't have any interest in antiquity except to the extent it relates very directly to Christianity, IME. That Christians are expected to profess belief in a statement they can't comprehend seems nuts to me.

    You might find Jung's Answer to Job interesting though if you're interested in this kind of thing.
    Honestly, I can think of one way to make sense of the trinity, which is in terms of all the polytheistic trinities in existence. Another would be for the intent of smuggling something that shouldn't be in there. If I have a direct relationship with God what's going to come in the middle? Satan? Wouldn't that just block it entirely? Yet positing a "relationship" as another being seems designed to do exactly that, like if I wanted to spy on some people "No, your devices are just creating things from interfering with each other in ways that aren't easily calculatable by you," made all the worse because electromagnetic interference is a real thing, "it's not because I'm in the middle messing with it."

    I mentioned Jung in a second post I made to myself. I'll probably find the book interesting at this point in my life but only because I feel like I see dissociation everywhere. Jung wanted to believe in integration, so why did he decide the trinity should become the quadrinity rather than just go unitarian? To me sometimes everything looks like it has unification as the goal. The goal of rationality is to describe everything in terms of everything else (ratios) and the goal of a person psychologically is to not compartmentalize, never mind developing multiple personalities. What is true is true everywhere, what is beautiful is beautiful everywhere, what is strong is strong everywhere. I'm surprised Jung didn't see what I see as the final logic of his "integration of the psyche" project. Instead of the twilight of the idols he propped them up high, a theme made more striking by his particular use of mythologies.

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    I recall reading that Jung was vocal about his work being addressed to the Western Man and that he shunned eastern(?) nondual approaches. There was this anecdote about him refusing to get off his boat to meet Ramana Maharshi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    You might find Jung's Answer to Job interesting though if you're interested in this kind of thing.
    To be fair, what I've heard of this book does make it sound like God is developing multiple personalities due to traumatic experiences. It's no wonder Jung just wanted more gods or more personalites to be God's Godheadmates like the Eternal-Empty and Eternal-Feminine (not conceived of as personalities of God by Goethe when he wrote Faust.) Then all the Greek gods and Norse gods and Egyptian gods and Hindu gods and Aztec gods have to be God's Godheadmates too because Jung didn't seem able to stop at four.

    Ironically those four are supposed to be the cognitive functions of socionics, MBTI, etc. Way to go religious dogma holding back science yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    I recall reading that Jung was vocal about his work being addressed to the Western Man and that he shunned eastern(?) nondual approaches. There was this anecdote about him refusing to get off his boat to meet Ramana Maharshi.
    If truth is universal why do this? What if he'd inherited something that's just corrupt? What if nondual approaches aren't really "Eastern" after all, but West and East is a duality that must be surpassed itself? Gottes ist der Orient! Gottes ist der Okzident!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    If truth is universal why do this? What if he'd inherited something that's just corrupt? What if nondual approaches aren't really "Eastern" after all, but West and East is a duality that must be surpassed itself? Gottes ist der Orient! Gottes ist der Okzident!
    Yes, hence the questionmark in my post (and it could go for every word). Being a zealot about these things can appear to serve us and be fun till it is not. Same goes for Jung. And when we try to unify with something, do we do it for he sake of truth or to suffer less? I think it is more honest to argue for the latter and forget about truth (for it to exist, untruth has to exist too anyway,no?).

    We could say that this is an individual endeavor and that you cannot take the world with you (at least not in the common sense), but you can try the way others have tried and maybe interesting things could appear to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    Yes, hence the questionmark in my post (and it could go for every word). Being a zealot about these things can appear to serve us and be fun till it is not. Same goes for Jung. And when we try to unify with something, do we do it for he sake of truth or to suffer less?
    I think as long as you're thinking about yourself and suffering less you will always suffer more. I think that's part of the problem. Only truth itself is really the arbiter of who can be concerned about it to begin with.

    I think it is more honest to argue for the latter and forget about truth (for it to exist, untruth has to exist too anyway,no?).
    Ah, but truth and untruth don't exist in the same way. It is true that there is untruth, but it isn't true that there is no truth. Untruth is just a part of the truth, in that it's true that people can be deceived etc. which is exactly why it's so dangerous despite being sort of just nothing.

    We could say that this is an individual endeavor and that you cannot take the world with you (at least not in the common sense), but you can try the way others have tried and maybe interesting things could appear to happen.
    Which others? There are many ways and they can't all be right simply from observation. I tend to stick with the others I respect and admire, but even then sometimes I question them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I think as long as you're thinking about yourself and suffering less you will always suffer more. I think that's part of the problem. Only truth itself is really the arbiter of who can be concerned about it to begin with.
    If you resonate more with not thinking/forgetting about yourself,that's fine by me. You can do it with drugs but concepts can work fine too. Also, when you think about yourself, is this what you do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    If you resonate more with not thinking/forgetting about yourself,that's fine by me. You can do it with drugs but concepts can work fine too. Also, when you think about yourself, is this what you do?
    Thinking and drugs are very different. Thinking about things besides yourself gives you houses and bridges and cars, mathematics and physics and astronomy, poetry and music art. Drugs mostly hinder that which is why I think they're generally not good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Thinking and drugs are very different. Thinking about things besides yourself gives you houses and bridges and cars, mathematics and physics and astronomy, poetry and music art. Drugs mostly hinder that which is why I think they're generally not good.
    If all these nice things can exist, why can't God exist too and have headmates and multiple personalities?Is it scary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    If all these nice things can exist, why can't God exist too and have headmates and multiple personalities?Is it scary?
    I hope God exists and like to think I know God exists, but why should God have headmates?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I hope God exists and like to think I know God exists, but why should God have headmates?
    Maybe he likes having them

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    Well it makes sense that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost because to create the human race and give life he would have to essentially homosexually impregnate himself and then make people that way. So the supreme Father, Check- but also a son, because he's also being himself and a part of him became Jesus. Then the "Holy Ghost" because you have to have magical powers to do all this and the average human cannot just magically create life out of thin air. To create people you do need straight people, but to create the straight people that makes other people in the first place - you need something really gay. You need a God.

    I believe even a being like God would have to obey the Law of Shadow Mirrors/Nature's Balance rule and create things very different from itself in order for it to exist as well, otherwise God wouldn't be God, God would become an Idea of Itself or just another evil dictator. Which is the false, comic book villain God everybody tends to loathe.

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    It has to do with the distinction Self/God. The Self (son) is the God image and the only way we can experience God. So as humans we cannot separate Self from God. Somewhere beyond the Self is God, the Father, the inconcievable.

    Thats how Ive understood father/son according to Jung. But you might want to read for yourself.


    Jung believed in integrating the psyche, but that's a human act, something we do by living properly. The psyche is split until this great work has been done.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    I thought the father, the holy spirit, and the son were like the master, the teaching, and the disciple from buddhism.
    In buddhism, you're supposed to be the three, to become buddha who is the three as one and unique.
    It reminds me of how in the tao te king: 0 gave birth to 1, 1 gave birth to 2, 2 gave birth to 3, 3 gave birth to the multitude.

    I guess this isn't something christians do, they don't try to achieve godhood like Jesus, only beg him to ask god stuff for them because he's supposedly special.
    The second buddha, Padmasambhava is said to have been born from a lotus flower as an 8 y-o child, if that isn't more "special" than a virgin mother, idk what is.
    He's more advanced than the rest of us spiritually, but not considered special nor superior. He's a master to be taken as example, tho you can pick another example, he won't be mad, all he's supposed to want is that you reach nirvana to be with him and all the others.

    Also, christianity has believed in reincarnation for a few centuries from what I read. It was kicked out as a mean to control people through the fear they only get one chance at paradise said the author but is it true? Which reminds me of a quote by buddha "the problem is you think you have time" meaning people fool around because they have all the lives they need so why not waste a few for fun?
    Only one life has a similar mindset, why not enjoy the only life we got?

    But anyway, I've no interest in arguing any of this, it's all stuff I read in books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It has to do with the distinction Self/God. The Self (son) is the God image and the only way we can experience God. So as humans we cannot separate Self from God. Somewhere beyond the Self is God, the Father, the inconcievable.

    Thats how Ive understood father/son according to Jung. But you might want to read for yourself.
    That just sounds like another problem. Why shouldn't I be able to directly commune with God? It's one thing to not be able to look at God because your puny human eyes would get physically burned, it's another to have no way whatsoever to interact, not even by talking, not even by imagining. Who would that benefit? It wouldn't benefit me. The only one what would benefit seems like the Devil himself. Of course, Jung also said the Devil was the fourth person of the quadrinity and was God's "bad side."

    Jung believed in integrating the psyche, but that's a human act, something we do by living properly. The psyche is split until this great work has been done.
    So is God supposed to have multiple personality disorder or is God supposed to be one? Even the Hebrew Bible says God is one, and I don't see anything in there about God being three. I don't really see it in the New Testament either, to be honest. It mentions the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost but it never says "these three are God and God is three-in-one," and the fact the Bible doesn't say that is exactly how you got Unitarians to begin with. Nor does it tell you to be a Christian, in fact it seems to strongly imply not to tell you that. The Catholic Church even explicitly says it relies on the writings of the church fathers more than the Bible because the Bible was compiled centuries afterward and that's its main argument with the Protestants. However, when you ask them about the church fathers they don't seem able to explain at all, because as @FreelancePoliceman said even Aquinas couldn't explain it in any way other than "this is tradition." So why does Jung think God should be four people (explicitly including Satan and/or Mary, "Eternal-Empty" and "Eternal-Feminine" cribbed from Faust despite Goethe himself being unitarian and even sort of jabbing at the idea of the trinity in Faust; "Witch's Kitchen.")

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    Maybe he likes having them
    That seems extremely counterproductive. I don't want imaginary people in my head so I'd have to ask God why He would. But it seems as though God doesn't, hence this thread.

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    Parallels with earlier figures

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    Religious Historian Petra Pakkanen has isolated four major trends in Hellenistic religion, in the centuries leading up to the beginning of Christianity, common among mystery religions (mysterious and allegorical cults): syncretism (the merging of ideas), monotheism (or progression towards the idea of one true god, via henotheism), individualism and cosmopolitanism.[270] These trends (particularly syncretism) are found among various mystery religions, such as the Eleusinian Mysteries (containing Hellenistic and Phoenician elements), Mithraism (containing Hellenistic and Persian elements), and the Mysteries of Isis and Osiris (containing Hellenistic and Egyptian elements).[271]

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    Richard Carrier then argues that Christianity conforms to all four trends, and that combining Hellenistic elements with Judaism would yield a religion much like Christianity,[272] and perhaps a saviour figure much like Philo’s Logos (explored in the next section). One example of Christianity’s syncretism, particularly in the context of incorporating previous traditions’ gods and key figures (in order to facilitate easier conversion, and to eliminate rivals) is the incorporation of John the Baptist (a saviour/prophet-type figure in his own right) into the Gospel story.[273] Syncretism is actually very common among religions, that tend to be influenced by previous religions, and Christianity is no exception.

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    Carrier then points to other elements in common between Christianity and various mystery religions, such as the saviour god and the dying-and-rising god (i.e. resurrecting), [274] referring to Romulus (whose death and resurrection was celebrated in annual passion plays), Zalmoxis (whose death and resurrection allowed eternal life for followers) and Osiris (whose death and resurrection allowed for salvation, via baptism) as the best examples.[275] Like Jesus, Osiris’ death is also associated with the full moon (John 19:14 compared with Plutarch’s Isis and Osiris 42), and tradition holds that he returned on ‘the third day’ (Luke 24:7 cf. Isis and Osiris 39,42).[276] Interestingly, the well-known (to the Jews) pagan god Baal also died (being devoured by Mot) and triumphantly returned.[277]

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    That such parallels are not necessarily overtly obvious or identical – a common charge by religious apologists – does not diminish the similarities or possible influences. If features between different religions were identical, it would no longer be emulation; it would simply be the same religion or story! Scholars would expect adaptations partly caused by differing cultural norms in the forming of the new religion. We wouldn’t expect them to be exactly the same, otherwise they would be the same religion. That such non-existent figures were often saviour gods, sons (or daughters) of a god, suffered for mankind, and inspired stories of themselves set on Earth (while originally being ‘celestial beings’, until the process of euhemerisation – later being ‘historicised’), may reasonably give cause to doubt the very existence of Jesus, whose most complete early sources portray him in a similar manner.

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    There are also parallels with other figures who may have been historical or ahistorical, many of which appear earlier than those from the Hellenistic period. Jesus was not the only ancient figure to arrive on Earth miraculously (Matthew 1:18); the Buddha was said to have appeared out of his virgin mother’s side,[278] and the mother of Perseus was impregnated by a god (Zeus), by way of a golden shower.[279] Kinky. While Jesus preached the so-called ‘golden rule’ (Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31), so too did the Buddha[280] and Confucius.[281] While Jesus was supposedly interrogated by Pontius Pilate (Mark 15:2) over his supposedly arrogant claims, Dionysus (another dying-and-rising god) allegedly appeared before King Pentheus on charges of claiming divinity.[282] While Jesus first appears in the Gospels as a wise man (with no childhood or adolescence in Mark 1:1-9), Laozi also was said to have first appeared as a wise and mature man, ready to teach us unenlightened ones.[283] And like Jesus (Matthew 5:43-47), Laozi also encouraged the loving of enemies, only many centuries earlier.[284]

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    While Jesus was tempted by Satan (Luke chapter 4), the Buddha was tempted by Mara[285] and Zoroaster by Ahriman.[286] While Jesus could miraculously produce wine (John 2:1-11), so too could Dionysis.[287] While Jesus was said to have walked on water (Matthew 14:22-33), so too is walking on water associated with the Buddha.[288] Jesus’ death and empty tomb story (John 20:1-10) shares similarities with the mystery over the deceased Hercules’ bones,[289] and also of Romulus, whose disappearance was associated with an unusual darkness (cf. Mark 15:33), and would eventually result in triumph.[290] And while many religious traditions incorporate some element of astro-theology via sun-worship, Church father Tertullian responds to the allegation that the sun is the god of Christianity not with denial (Ad Nationes 1.13), but with a surprising and perhaps immature admission and defence: “What then? Do you do less than this?”[291] Robert Price noted similarities between the story of Jesus and the “Mythic Hero Archetype” delineated earlier by independent scholar FitzRoy Richard Somerset (the fourth Baron Raglan) and psychologist Otto Rank:[292]

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    In broad outline and in detail, the life of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels corresponds to the worldwide Mythic Hero Archetype in which a divine hero’s birth is supernaturally predicted and conceived, the infant hero escapes attempts to kill him, demonstrates his precocious wisdom already as a child, receives a divine commission, defeats demons, wins acclaim, is hailed as king, then betrayed, losing popular favor, executed, often on a hilltop, and is vindicated and taken up to heaven.[293]

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    The identification of such parallels is certainly not limited to the über-sceptical mythicists, with the more mainstream Biblical scholar Robert Funk recognising that Paul “identified Jesus as a savior figure of the Hellenistic type, a dying/rising god, such as Osiris in the Isis cult” and noticing that “It was not the life and teachings of Jesus but the death of Jesus and his appearance to Paul in a vision… that became the focal points of Paul’s gospel”.[294] Other scholars acknowledging the similarities of Christianity and mystery religions include second century Christian Church Father Clement of Alexandria and Professor of Bible and Christian Studies Marvin W Meyer.[295] Hoffman also indicated that the knowledge of such parallels is “not new to scholarship” and that there are many similar myths and stories of earlier figures, who often were “dying, rising, saving”.[296] In a recent article, Biblical scholar Philip Davies theorises that a recognition that Jesus’ historicity is not certain would “nudge Jesus scholarship towards academic respectability”, finds attempts at discovering the ‘Historical Jesus’ to be “poor history”, and confirms the alleged mythic parallels:


    Two articles in Is This Not the Carpenter? (by the two editors, in fact) amass a great deal of evidence that the profile of Jesus in the New Testament is composed of stock motifs drawn from all over the Mediterranean and Near Eastern world. These parallels are valid: in trying to provide an account of who and what Jesus was such resources were inevitably drawn upon, consciously or unconsciously by the gospel writers.[297]

    Philo’s pre-Christian and pre-Pauline ‘Celestial Jesus’

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    This is big.


    The possibility that Paul’s Jesus is a ‘celestial Christ’, who appeared in visions, and may have existed in outer space rather than on Earth, was considered earlier, and is a popular argument from some mythicists (and even accepted by several Jesus historicists).[298] Interestingly, Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (ca. 20BCE-50CE), a supposed contemporary of Jesus, whose writings predate those of Paul, and the Gospels, makes no mention of Jesus of Nazareth or his followers, but does refer to a celestial figure, a purely supernatural figure, called the Logos (cf. John1:1).[299] The big issue is that this purely supernatural figure, sounds very much like Jesus Christ. Richard Carrier brought it to my attention that this Logos figure is variously described by Philo as the ‘firstborn son of God’ (cf. Romans 8:29),[300] the celestial “image of God” (cf. 2Corinthians 4:4),[301] God’s agent of creation (cf. 1Corinthians 8:6)[302] and God’s high priest (cf. Colossians 1:18, Hebrews 4:14).[303]

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    Dr Carrier further highlights Philo’s insistence that believers should emulate this Logos figure (cf. Galatians 3:27, 1Corinthians 11:1).[304] Philo also describes the Logos as the expiator of sins and mediator for mankind (cf. Colossians 1:13-14).[305] If Philo’s Messiah-like Logos and Paul’s (and other epistle authors’) Christ are unrelated, it is a great coincidence. Given the timeframes, it seems obvious that Paul adapted Philo’s Logos figure into his own concept of Jesus Christ. An equally impressive ‘coincidence’ would be that in discussing this seemingly nameless figure, Philo refers to an Old Testament passage, which provides the one thing Droge said is necessary to start a religion: a name. You can probably see where this is going… In the Septuagint[306] (an old version of the Old Testament, possibly more reliable than the oft-used Masoretic version), this figure is given the name, “Jesus”, as explained by Carrier:

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    Nor was the idea of a pre-existent spiritual son of God a novel idea among the Jews anyway. Paul’s contemporary, Philo, interprets the messianic prophecy of Zechariah 6:11-12 in just such a way. In the Septuagint this says to place the crown of kingship upon “Jesus,” for “So says Jehovah the Ruler of All, ‘Behold the man named ‘Rises’, and he shall rise up from his place below and he shall build the House of the Lord’.” This pretty much is the Christian Gospel.

    Whether this ‘a crown for Jesus’ passage in Zechariah is meant to foreshadow the future Jesus Christ or not (as Christians might like to think), what matters is how Philo interprets this passage, and how he goes on to influence Paul, and ultimately, the Gospel authors. This passage from Zechariah was commented on by Philo, who links it with his supernatural and divine Logos figure, in On the Confusion of Tongues 62-63:

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    “Behold, the man named Rises!” is a very novel appellation indeed, if you consider it as spoken of a man who is compounded of body and soul. But if you look upon it as applied to that incorporeal being who in no respect differs from the divine image, you will then agree that the name of ‘Rises’ has been given to him with great felicity. For the Father of the Universe has caused him to rise up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn. And he who is thus born, imitates the ways of his father…[308]

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    Carrier further notes that Zechariah’s ‘Jesus’ shall “rule” (Zechariah 6:13). That Philo discusses a pre-Christian (and Jewish), pre-Pauline celestial ‘Jesus’ who was not a literal and historical human being, and who shares many characteristics with Paul’s alleged ‘cosmic Christ’ and the Gospels’ ‘earthly Jesus’, is of great importance to the case made by Jesus mythicists and should surely be an area of further research. There are important implications on the origins of the Jesus story, but also of early Christianity and Christian Gnosticism, such as providing a possible explanation of how Platonic (Plato being a hugely influential ancient Greek philosopher) thought could have influenced Christianity far earlier than initially imagined.

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    Religious Studies scholars Joe Barnhart and Linda Kraeger also allude to Paul’s Platonic influence, via Philo, and perhaps other Jewish and Roman sources.[309] Philo’s Logos/Jesus also neatly fits into the evolution of the Jesus story proposed in the previous chapter, as it was influenced by the Old Testament (including the ‘Jesus to be crowned’) and likely influenced the ‘visionary Christ’ of the Pauline Epistles. In such a scenario, Philo promotes an other-worldly, and spiritual Logos, which would evolve into Paul’s other-worldly but fleshly Christ, culminating in the Gospels’ portrayal of an earthly and fleshly, ‘Historical Jesus’.

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    Now why are the incredibly significant facts that Jesus’ contemporary Philo fails to make any mention of Jesus Christ (or a ‘Historical Jesus’), but instead makes much mention of a Jesus-like heavenly-figure, also referred to as Jesus, not a part of mainstream knowledge? That this indicates entirely mythical origins for Jesus should at least be openly discussed, if not seen as all that likely. That Churches would suppress such information is understandable, though obviously not ideal. That academic institutions would do the same, I think, makes it very clear that there are real problems within academia, particularly with the scholarly study of religion.[310]
    There Was No Jesus, There Is No God
    by Raphael Lataster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    There Was No Jesus, There Is No God
    by Raphael Lataster
    This was interesting, but it doesn't address two major points:

    1. There were already some Gnostic cults that were explicitly "mythicists" who believed in only the spiritual Jesus and people who believed Jesus was a person debated them. If they lost that's one thing, but the arguments weren't even acknowledged by Lataster.

    2. It's easily conceivable to have a unitarian God who doesn't turn into a human, who doesn't beget any children and isn't begotten, and doesn't conform to any of these pagan archetypes. However, was Plato really that pagan? Plato seemed to believe in "the Monad" and other people like the aforementioned Philo added the mythological parts to Neoplatonism. "Jesusists" would say that's what Paul did to Christianity and many people argue that's what Mithraism is compared to Zoroastrianism. Chinese religion and Yazidism among others also explicitly say there was originally one God who left and then other rulers had to come in God's place (the celestial bureaucracy for Chinese religion, the seven angels and Melek Taus for Yazidism.) So adding sun worship and multiple gods to an original pure monotheistic religion is not a new idea either and should probably be considered even more than mythicism should. Perhaps there was a historical Jesus, and the historical Jesus didn't found Christianity, but many other people projected their pagan ideas onto him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    This was interesting, but it doesn't address two major points:

    1. There were already some Gnostic cults that were explicitly "mythicists" who believed in only the spiritual Jesus and people who believed Jesus was a person debated them. If they lost that's one thing, but the arguments weren't even acknowledged by Lataster.

    2. It's easily conceivable to have a unitarian God who doesn't turn into a human, who doesn't beget any children and isn't begotten, and doesn't conform to any of these pagan archetypes. However, was Plato really that pagan? Plato seemed to believe in "the Monad" and other people like the aforementioned Philo added the mythological parts to Neoplatonism. "Jesusists" would say that's what Paul did to Christianity and many people argue that's what Mithraism is compared to Zoroastrianism. Chinese religion and Yazidism among others also explicitly say there was originally one God who left and then other rulers had to come in God's place (the celestial bureaucracy for Chinese religion, the seven angels and Melek Taus for Yazidism.) So adding sun worship and multiple gods to an original pure monotheistic religion is not a new idea either and should probably be considered even more than mythicism should. Perhaps there was a historical Jesus, and the historical Jesus didn't found Christianity, but many other people projected their pagan ideas onto him.
    Where does the idea of "the Holy Spirit", "the Word of God" come from? Does it date earlier than the Gospel written by the Author Known As John, or was it "John"'s invention? Basically some guy/s on LSD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Where does the idea of "the Holy Spirit", "the Word of God" come from? Does it date earlier than the Gospel written by the Author Known As John, or was it "John"'s invention? Basically some guy/s on LSD.
    Probably LSD (not to be confused with LDS.) I never said the Bible was accurate at all, just that the Bible being inaccurate and Jesus being a historical guy don't seem mutually exclusive. See: the leadership cults in North Korea. That cult doesn't mean Kim Jong Un and Kim Jong Il aren't real people. It doesn't seem that inconceivable that someone could be made the figurehead of a cult against their own wishes. Especially when that person was sentenced to be crucified as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Probably LSD (not to be confused with LDS.) I never said the Bible was accurate at all, just that the Bible being inaccurate and Jesus being a historical guy don't seem mutually exclusive. See: the leadership cults in North Korea. That cult doesn't mean Kim Jong Un and Kim Jong Il aren't real people. It doesn't seem that inconceivable that someone could be made the figurehead of a cult against their own wishes. Especially when that person was sentenced to be crucified as well.
    "Jesus" was basically Joshua 2, the Jews wanted their Messiah to come for centuries to save them from their enemies. The threat of the Romans was likely the trigger that pushed their myth-writing into overdrive.

    Nothing about Jesus in the Bible can be accepted as certainly true. All the details are mingled with miraculous events, which means that the whole account should be discounted, if not disregarded entirely.

    There may or may not have been a real figure that myths were later associated with, but the fact is that even Jesus/Joshua's very name should be treated as suspect when considering the Jewish desire for a new Joshua as their Messiah. (Jesus/Joshua was a very common name, but the nature of the stories does make it highly likely it was deliberately chosen because of the significance of Joshua in the Old Testament).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    "Jesus" was basically Joshua 2, the Jews wanted their Messiah to come for centuries to save them from their enemies. The threat of the Romans was likely the trigger that pushed their myth-writing into overdrive.
    Now, using that to argue Jesus was definitely not based on a real person at all seems like an example of the genetic fallacy, amplified by the fact Christianity largely became the greatest enemy of the Jews for a while under pagan emperors like Constantine (who were also Mithran and could be seen as having corrupted an original tradition if you assume there was one.)

    Nothing about Jesus in the Bible can be accepted as certainly true. All the details are mingled with miraculous events, which means that the whole account should be discounted, if not disregarded entirely.
    Why would you discount miraculous events? Sending a manned rocket to the Moon is more miraculous than walking on water in my opinion. Even by the Christian Bible's account, it's not blasphemous for me to say that, either. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12 I think going to space is a greater work. I think computers we use are a greater work. I think many things we do today are more miraculous than walking on water and turning water into wine and feeding crowds by splitting bread. In fact, it is easy to be almost jaded towards those types of miracles and think of them as rather banal with the "Faustian age" we live in.

    There may or may not have been a real figure that myths were later associated with, but the fact is that even Jesus/Joshua's very name should be treated as suspect when considering the Jewish desire for a new Joshua as their Messiah. (Jesus/Joshua was a very common name, but the nature of the stories does make it highly likely it was deliberately chosen because of the significance of Joshua in the Old Testament).
    I wouldn't use Jesus's name as a counterargument since Jews also liked changing their names whenever anything important happened, e.g. Jacob becoming Israel and Abram becoming Abraham. Jesus could've changed his name before he started preaching and that fact might've gone completely unnoticed by the gentile authors. Many accounts also said his name would be Emmanuel. So maybe it could be Emmanuel and Joshua and whatever was convenient at the time. Doesn't mean there definitely wasn't a real person, or that there definitely was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Now, using that to argue Jesus was definitely not based on a real person at all seems like an example of the genetic fallacy, amplified by the fact Christianity largely became the greatest enemy of the Jews for a while under pagan emperors like Constantine (who were also Mithran and could be seen as having corrupted an original tradition if you assume there was one.)
    If "Jesus Christ" was based on a real person, it wouldn't be worth knowing. It's well-known that "Jesus"'s ideas originate in earlier and contemporary religious thought - non-Jewish religions, as well as the trains of thought of forward-thinking Rabbis of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Why would you discount miraculous events? Sending a manned rocket to the Moon is more miraculous than walking on water in my opinion. Even by the Christian Bible's account, it's not blasphemous for me to say that, either. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12 I think going to space is a greater work. I think computers we use are a greater work. I think many things we do today are more miraculous than walking on water and turning water into wine and feeding crowds by splitting bread. In fact, it is easy to be almost jaded towards those types of miracles and think of them as rather banal with the "Faustian age" we live in.
    By definition, if something is impossible, it can't happen. It is impossible for a human to walk on liquid water unless they're traveling very fast. It's basic physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I wouldn't use Jesus's name as a counterargument since Jews also liked changing their names whenever anything important happened, e.g. Jacob becoming Israel and Abram becoming Abraham. Jesus could've changed his name before he started preaching and that fact might've gone completely unnoticed by the gentile authors. Many accounts also said his name would be Emmanuel. So maybe it could be Emmanuel and Joshua and whatever was convenient at the time. Doesn't mean there definitely wasn't a real person, or that there definitely was.
    All I'm saying is, is that we cannot even be sure there was a person called "Jesus" who inspired the myths. There could have been, but his name is basically the most boring detail here, aside from it possibly being chosen when the early Christians retconned Old Testament Judaism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If "Jesus Christ" was based on a real person, it wouldn't be worth knowing. It's well-known that "Jesus"'s ideas originate in earlier and contemporary religious thought - non-Jewish religions, as well as the trains of thought of forward-thinking Rabbis of the time.
    False. That's what the Quran said would happen, so if that's what happened it's evidence for the Quran. Or are you dismissing the Quran a priori? There are other religions that make similar claims but it's not so central (e.g. Hindus who believe Christ is a corruption of Krishna.) There are also the Unitarians but, well, look where they all went. Hello, Western Saadi (Ralph Waldo Emerson.)


    By definition, if something is impossible, it can't happen. It is impossible for a human to walk on liquid water unless they're traveling very fast. It's basic physics.
    Physics is being overturned all the time. It might be possible.


    All I'm saying is, is that we cannot even be sure there was a person called "Jesus" who inspired the myths. There could have been, but his name is basically the most boring detail here, aside from it possibly being chosen when the early Christians retconned Old Testament Judaism.
    Not boring for reasons given in my first point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    False. That's what the Quran said would happen, so if that's what happened it's evidence for the Quran. Or are you dismissing the Quran a priori? There are other religions that make similar claims but it's not so central (e.g. Hindus who believe Christ is a corruption of Krishna.) There are also the Unitarians but, well, look where they all went. Hello, Western Saadi (Ralph Waldo Emerson.)
    I dismiss the Quran as a collection of regional myths crudely plagirised, based on scholars who have researched the subject. Islam was originally a Christian sect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Physics is being overturned all the time. It might be possible.
    The laws of nature are constant. Our understanding of them is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I dismiss the Quran as a collection of regional myths crudely plagirised, based on scholars who have researched the subject. Islam was originally a Christian sect.



    The laws of nature are constant. Our understanding of them is not.
    Yes, so what if it's possible for a person to walk on water? I think it probably is. I know how to do things that are more outrageous than that even if I don't know how to walk on water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Spencer, R., 2021. Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam’s Obscure Origins—Revised and Expanded Edition. Bombardier Books.

    Ohlig, K.H. and Puin, G.R. eds., 2010. The hidden origins of Islam: New research into its early history. Prometheus books.

    Crone, P. and Cook, M., 1977. Hagarism: the making of the Islamic world. CUP Archive.

    Peters, F.E., 1991. The quest of the historical Muhammad. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 23(3), pp.291-315


    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    Yes, so what if it's possible for a person to walk on water? I think it probably is. I know how to do things that are more outrageous than that even if I don't know how to walk on water.
    It's possible, you just have to beat the surface tension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Spencer, R., 2021. Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam’s Obscure Origins—Revised and Expanded Edition. Bombardier Books.

    Ohlig, K.H. and Puin, G.R. eds., 2010. The hidden origins of Islam: New research into its early history. Prometheus books.

    Crone, P. and Cook, M., 1977. Hagarism: the making of the Islamic world. CUP Archive.

    Peters, F.E., 1991. The quest of the historical Muhammad. International Journal of Middle East Studies, 23(3), pp.291-315
    I think you already gave me those.


    It's possible, you just have to beat the surface tension.


    If a lizard can do it, why not people? I've been too busy trying to reproduce other miracles scientifically to get to that one, though. However, when I do reproduce it... it just shows me it can happen. Because the holy books, none of them, ever claimed "haha, your science can't do this!" They just claimed it was an extraordinary event worthy of documentation, not that it took a sledgehammer to nature itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    If a lizard can do it, why not people? I've been too busy trying to reproduce other miracles scientifically to get to that one, though. However, when I do reproduce it... it just shows me it can happen. Because the holy books, none of them, ever claimed "haha, your science can't do this!" They just claimed it was an extraordinary event worthy of documentation, not that it took a sledgehammer to nature itself.
    It's due to density of the individual and speed. A human standing on liquid water will always sink, but if they can travel fast enough, they won't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    It's due to density of the individual and speed. A human standing on liquid water will always sink, but if they can travel fast enough, they won't.
    Maybe, but there might be things that negate the density besides just running really fast. People used to think bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly, but I don't think anyone assumed nature was lawless chaos because of that. People just learned why bumblebees can fly late into the invention of physics. There's no confirmed proof of Jesus walking on water, but this seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't turn the entire world upside down if someone found out how it's done, except of course the cries of evangelical Christian types who would say that science is Satanic despite the fact that their computers and satellites and what have you make a way bigger difference on a practical level than someone walking on water even if that would have been an excellent sign of something out of the ordinary at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    I don't want imaginary people in my head
    I'll take your word for it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum Blue View Post
    That just sounds like another problem. Why shouldn't I be able to directly commune with God? It's one thing to not be able to look at God because your puny human eyes would get physically burned, it's another to have no way whatsoever to interact, not even by talking, not even by imagining. Who would that benefit? It wouldn't benefit me. The only one what would benefit seems like the Devil himself. Of course, Jung also said the Devil was the fourth person of the quadrinity and was God's "bad side."
    Jung is not theology. He explains the psychological foundation why people have been talking about "God" and developed the myth about the trinity. We are not conscious about the structure of the psyche so everything got projected into the great Christian myth. Stricktly speaking we cannot experience anything outside of the psyche, so any experience of "God" is a psychic experience, the "God image". I don't find that very difficult to understand. As Jung said, we don't really know were the psyche ends, because everything we experience is psyche, but one can assume that outside the psyche there is something, reality, the "inconceivable".

    But I think ultimately each individual has to find God in his own way and establish that relationship in his own everyday life. It's a living experience that at least in some sense transcends any theory about it.


    So why does Jung think God should be four people (explicitly including Satan and/or Mary,
    Probably because something is missing from the myth according to him. You can easily examine myths and fill in the gaps if you have a non-dogmatic attitude. Myths are often incomplete. Like, for example, what happened to Jesus when he died and went to hell? Christianity doesn't deal with that, but other myths have it (of course expressed in different images than Christianity).

    I don't know that much about the history, but I understand the Trinity was a later mythologization. Just like you pointed out. That should only be a problem for a theologician, though, not for a psychologist who doesn't care about the dogmatism, only the symbolic character of the myths.

    Obviously the psyche has a dark side, the whole chaotic unconscious and seems like it was left out from the trinity. So hence the forth "person". I think this even was hinted at in the link you gave. Or something like that, I haven't studied this in detail.

    This was also one reason why Jung liked the myth of alchemy, because it deals with the dark stuff that was left out of Christianiy. So in that way alchemy is a more complete myth.

    But I don't know that much about these things, so read more yourself. You'll probably have more questions for any reply I give, but I can't really continue this discussion much more even though it is pretty interesting.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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