General Question Concerning Human Insanity

[ghost of forum past]

What does it say about a person when they refuse to take action to remove themselves from a situation that causes them discomfort?

Is it low self-worth? Fear of being disagreeable? Confidence that the situation will end well despite the discomfort? Is it a non-issue? Am I missing something? Please add to the list of possibilities.

My quest is to understand the depths of human psychological misery. In my view, not doing something to remove yourself from an uncomfortable situation is making a choice to accept the burden of more suffering, though maybe there is something else to it. It just seems unnecessary given that life contains the potential for a great deal of suffering already. Serious replies desired.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I think sadly they hate/despise the thing so much they are only really ever happy if most people feel the same way about it it as they do, so the thing they loathe gets destroyed. That's why they can't just simply move on and let people that do enjoy it, enjoy it. The discomfort is so great, it needs to become externally objective to others around them.

This annoys me too, because I find it childish and irresponsible, like we have to cater things to them and baby them all the time. Like external reality needs to always be changed around their pwecious widdle fweeings. I think people who act too much like this in serious creepy ways have a hard time separating their own personal feelings from external reality.

But let's not be self-righteous, I understand it too on a very deep level- if you are indeed seriously repulsed by something *that* much, wouldn't you also feel great joy in seeing it burned down while you smugly sip wine safely from a quarter mile away? This is why it can be an uphill battle trying to impart forgiveness or even basic compassion on others... you can see how they need it so much, but they're out for blood and it will only be quenched once it's spilled. They can't just remove themselves, they need to be the one that removes IT. We are still in many ways in the lesson of understanding 'I can exist, and you can exist too.'

[Aramas]

When people don't like something and don't get away from it, it's probably because they're not able to, or they think they aren't able to.

A lot of people are guilty of assuming people can just get away from something if they want to. It doesn't always work like that.

The free will myth is very persistent in the human psyche.

[strrrng]

On some level it seems that if one were to reach a place where suffering was absent, they would want suffering. But, conversely, by going through the entire spectrum of suffering, they could potentially reach such a place. In any case it doesn't matter, because no one is reaching nirvana in this life, and it's more than a psychoanalytic precept that part of being human is the pursuit of pleasure and minimization of pain. So, to me it's mostly that some form of an obstacle is always inevitable/necessary—that suffering should be accepted and integrated.

[ashlesha]

Ive been looking for my own words and it's hard so I'll be lazy and share links: this and this are what came to mind when I saw the thread.

[Raver]

When people don't like something and don't get away from it, it's probably because they're not able to, or they think they aren't able to.

A lot of people are guilty of assuming people can just get away from something if they want to. It doesn't always work like that.

The free will myth is very persistent in the human psyche.

This. It is because they can't and are stuck. It is possible to get out of most bad situations, but it is definitely difficult and not an easy task. Eventually they do get out though through dumb luck or their own will, but only after suffering for months or even years.

[ouronis]

It could be that the level of discomfort is more manageable than the level of discomfort if they changed, so they stay in the local minimum.

Throwing off situations that have become strongly enmeshed with your life is difficult and often painful to navigate.

I do think that if there is an obvious and relatively easy way to fix the problem, and you don't take it, you should at least accept that you're choosing to shoulder a burden and are an unnecessary victim. But there is a lot built into that "relatively easy".

[Aramas]

This. It is because they can't and are stuck. It is possible to get out of most bad situations, but it is definitely difficult and not an easy task. Eventually they do get out though through dumb luck or their own will, but only after suffering for months or even years.

Idk about most. Maybe some. It really just depends on circumstances. If you were a Jew in Nazi Germany, your chances would not have been good. People underestimate the strength it takes to survive in hard situations because they haven't lived in them themselves, or they've quickly forgotten what it was like to go through what they went through. A lot of blame and pointless advice could be dispensed with if people understood this.

Until you've been another person, and that will most likely never happen, you don't know what it's like to live in that person's body or feel that person's experiences. It's really fucking easy to say, "Why don't they just ....?" The reason why people ask themselves questions like this one is that they are still looking at that person's situation from within their own perspective.

I know a lot of people "know" stuff like this in their heads, but they don't really understand it.

[Xaiviay]

Idk about most. Maybe some. It really just depends on circumstances. If you were a Jew in Nazi Germany, your chances would not have been good. People underestimate the strength it takes to survive in hard situations because they haven't lived in them themselves, or they've quickly forgotten what it was like to go through what they went through. A lot of blame and pointless advice could be dispensed with if people understood this.

I'm a huge fan of the whole 'free will' principle, and I think it's important to focus on that because that encourages one to focus on responsibility and controlling what they can, rather than getting mired in feelings of victimization (woe is me). But I do really like this point you made, from the perspective that understanding this can help people be a lot more compassionate towards others, when they tend not to see everything they're going through.

[Aramas]

I'm a huge fan of the whole 'free will' principle, and I think it's important to focus on that because that encourages one to focus on responsibility and controlling what they can, rather than getting mired in feelings of victimization (woe is me). But I do really like this point you made, from the perspective that understanding this can help people be a lot more compassionate towards others, when they tend not to see everything they're going through.

I have heard a lot of people use the word responsibility. For some reason, none of those people has ever bothered saying what it means. I'm curious to see how you might define it without looking up the word in a dictionary.

I do agree that sometimes a positive attitude can be helpful, and that having a certain perspective can be helpful in certain situations.

[Xaiviay]

I have heard a lot of people use the word responsibility. For some reason, none of those people has ever bothered saying what it means. I'm curious to see how you might define it without looking up the word in a dictionary.

Sure! imo, 'responsibility' is about doing whatever you can to fix problems, instead of sitting around blaming other people, or letting bad things happen... It's also related to the idea of being competent enough to change things. I think one thing that keeps people from taking responsibility is feeling like changing anything is beyond their abilities. Taking responsibility feels less intimidating, if you have faith in yourself. I'd also say that it's closely related to 'caring'; if you care about someone, you're motivated to be responsible for their well-being. Could be caring about others, caring about an object/idea, or even caring about yourself.

Mmm...just a side note, one thing I don't agree with is the idea that everything bad that ever happens to you is in some way your fault. There are definitely some things that are tempting to blame others for when it's really on you, but there's also stuff that other people do that we are incapable of preventing. So..I would say, in those situations, taking responsibility would be doing anything you can to minimize/reverse damage, but you shouldn't feel blamed for what's happened to you.

Sorry if that's too long, it's something I've thought about a lot.

I do agree that sometimes a positive attitude can be helpful, and that having a certain perspective can be helpful in certain situations.

Yes, I think so, too

[Aramas]

Sure! imo, 'responsibility' is about doing whatever you can to fix problems, instead of sitting around blaming other people, or letting bad things happen... It's also related to the idea of being competent enough to change things. I think one thing that keeps people from taking responsibility is feeling like changing anything is beyond their abilities. Taking responsibility feels less intimidating, if you have faith in yourself. I'd also say that it's closely related to 'caring'; if you care about someone, you're motivated to be responsible for their well-being. Could be caring about others, caring about an object/idea, or even caring about yourself.

Mmm...just a side note, one thing I don't agree with is the idea that everything bad that ever happens to you is in some way your fault. There are definitely some things that are tempting to blame others for when it's really on you, but there's also stuff that other people do that we are incapable of preventing. So..I would say, in those situations, taking responsibility would be doing anything you can to minimize/reverse damage, but you shouldn't feel blamed for what's happened to you.

Sorry if that's too long, it's something I've thought about a lot.
Yes, I think so, too

So, in other words, responsibility is just doing what you can. In your first post, you said "responsibility and controlling what they can," so it seems like what you're saying is "doing what you can and controlling what you can." It sounds a bit redundant to me, but sometimes I know people like being artistic with language.

In my own experience, I've interpreted the word "responsibility" to act as a moral injunction in a conversation, a way of placing blame on someone and trying to evoke a superegoic response that will cause someone to act in a desired manner for the person using the word. My own reaction to this word is usually, "Uh oh! This person's ticked!" I think a lot of people use the word "responsibility" because they feel a need to place blame back onto a person in a bad place. They do that to hide something from themselves perhaps, the knowledge that the system and society they live in doesn't work like they expect it to, or maybe they just don't want to deal with someone else's problems -- maybe because they can't even handle their own, and other people talking about their problems reminds them of things they would rather not think about themselves. So, when people use the word "responsibility," that word usually has another motive that people aren't willing to say openly.

You did say you're a big believer in the free will thing. Maybe you feel a need to tell people to "take responsibility" (even though it's not a physical object, interestingly enough), because other people being in inextricably bad situations doesn't allow you to preserve your belief in free will. Hence, your reaction, telling people to "take responsibility" is self-protective.

[SaveYourself]

Without specifics it's hard to say. Some times it could be mental health / low self worth (they don't see themselves as deserving or just straight up can't see a way out). Another option might be that they get secondary benefits from it.

For example, you might be in a less than good relationship, but being in a bad relationship means not having to go through the pain of being single / moving out / dating / tinder etc. You might hate your job but it's easy and close to home. Maybe you hate your body but all your friends like eating junk food so you'll be isolated from them if you start working out. You don't have any money but you think all people who worry about finances are boring and you get to be 'fun' if you keep spending all your money.

And, just more generally, it's easier to not move than to move so if something is bearable and there's no clear better option (or you're gaining secondary benefits from the bad option) you might as well stay put.

[sbbds]

So, in other words, responsibility is just doing what you can. In your first post, you said "responsibility and controlling what they can," so it seems like what you're saying is "doing what you can and controlling what you can." It sounds a bit redundant to me, but sometimes I know people like being artistic with language.

In my own experience, I've interpreted the word "responsibility" to act as a moral injunction in a conversation, a way of placing blame on someone and trying to evoke a superegoic response that will cause someone to act in a desired manner for the person using the word. My own reaction to this word is usually, "Uh oh! This person's ticked!" I think a lot of people use the word "responsibility" because they feel a need to place blame back onto a person in a bad place. They do that to hide something from themselves perhaps, the knowledge that the system and society they live in doesn't work like they expect it to, or maybe they just don't want to deal with someone else's problems -- maybe because they can't even handle their own, and other people talking about their problems reminds them of things they would rather not think about themselves. So, when people use the word "responsibility," that word usually has another motive that people aren't willing to say openly.

You did say you're a big believer in the free will thing. Maybe you feel a need to tell people to "take responsibility" (even though it's not a physical object, interestingly enough), because other people being in inextricably bad situations doesn't allow you to preserve your belief in free will. Hence, your reaction, telling people to "take responsibility" is self-protective.

I agree that in irl, when the topic of responsibility is brought up it’s usually by people like this condemning other people in at least a somewhat self-righteous and uncultured way like how you’ve described. These kinds of people are naive about many things in life even though they like to present themselves as kind guides, and acknowledge their own disadvantages disproportionate to their advantages and compare themselves to others in an inaccurate way.

[Aramas]

I agree that in irl, when the topic of responsibility is brought up it’s usually by people like this condemning other people in at least a somewhat self-righteous and uncultured way like how you’ve described.

Yeah. You can easily feel the finger shaking pointing gesture even if it's not there lmao. That's why I asked Xaiviay to expand on what she said. "Take responsibility" when it's fully expanded out of its metaphoric state is usually "fuck you" or "I can't help" -- or both.

[sbbds]

Yeah. You can easily feel the finger shaking pointing gesture even if it's not there lmao. That's why I asked Xaiviay to expand on that she said. "Take responsibility" when it's fully expanded out of its metaphoric state is usually "fuck you" or "I can't help" -- or both.

Not that people are obliged to help you ... right? ..

[Aramas]

Not that people are obliged to help you ... right? ..

No. Technically speaking, no one is obliged to do anything, from my philosophical perspective. But you'll often still look bad if you say "fuck you" to someone in need. I wonder why that is? So, telling people to take responsibility has become the socially acceptable cue for giving no fucks.

[Xaiviay]

In my own experience, I've interpreted the word "responsibility" to act as a moral injunction in a conversation, a way of placing blame on someone and trying to evoke a superegoic response that will cause someone to act in a desired manner for the person using the word. My own reaction to this word is usually, "Uh oh! This person's ticked!" I think a lot of people use the word "responsibility" because they feel a need to place blame back onto a person in a bad place. They do that to hide something from themselves perhaps, the knowledge that the system and society they live in doesn't work like they expect it to, or maybe they just don't want to deal with someone else's problems -- maybe because they can't even handle their own, and other people talking about their problems reminds them of things they would rather not think about themselves. So, when people use the word "responsibility," that word usually has another motive that people aren't willing to say openly.

Holy cow, you put this so well...I'm actually in 100% aggreement with you here. I have seen so many people tell others that they're just not 'taking enough responsibility', when in reality it's the person saying that, who's just not looking at the problems underlying their cultural system.

However, I always felt like I was just being a crybaby if I mentioned that. People would smirk at me and say 'you just don't want to take responsibility, too', so I think it's cool that you said that.

You did say you're a big believer in the free will thing. Maybe you feel a need to tell people to "take responsibility" (even though it's not a physical object, interestingly enough), because other people being in inextricably bad situations doesn't allow you to preserve your belief in free will. Hence, your reaction, telling people to "take responsibility" is self-protective.

Not really, I don't really want to tell others to take responsibility, because I know how callous it can be for the reasons you described. If I think it can help them, then maybe I will, but mostly it's just a rule I keep for myself. Also, I define it in the way I described above, only focusing on what I can do, not placing any moral blame.

[Aramas]

However, I always felt like I was just being a crybaby if I mentioned that. People would smirk at me and say 'you just don't want to take responsibility, too', so I think it's cool that you said that.

If you don't ring your bitch bell, nothing will change.

[ashlesha]

Holy cow, you put this so well...I'm actually in 100% aggreement with you here. I have seen so many people tell others that they're just not 'taking enough responsibility', when in reality it's the person saying that, who's just not looking at the problems underlying their cultural system.

However, I always felt like I was just being a crybaby if I mentioned that. People would smirk at me and say 'you just don't want to take responsibility, too', so I think it's cool that you said that.

Same! I can't talk about it without feeling this awkward shame over how it will be perceived but @Aramas was so articulate about it.

I still think about responsibility as it applies to myself as a motivator and way of framing a problem to give myself focus. I assumed that was the spirit in which you were talking about it.

AND I am not innocent of aiming the word at other people. In contexts where it really is only their own initiative that could possibly solve the problem (or it is impossible to solve, depending on your take on free will and the specific surrounding contexts) and i am frustrated at their pain and my inability to help so its like ahh!! They have to do something!!

[sbbds]

If you don't ring your bitch bell, nothing will change.

LOLOL

[Xaiviay]

If you don't ring your bitch bell, nothing will change.

I love you ESIs

[Xaiviay]

Same! I can't talk about it without feeling this awkward shame over how it will be perceived but @Aramas was so articulate about it.

I still think about responsibility as it applies to myself as a motivator and way of framing a problem to give myself focus. I assumed that was the spirit in which you were talking about it.

AND I am not innocent of aiming the word at other people. In contexts where it really is only their own initiative that could possibly solve the problem (or it is impossible to solve, depending on your take on free will and the specific surrounding contexts) and i am frustrated at their pain and my inability to help so its like ahh!! They have to do something!!

No kidding, right?

Same here, it motivates me and helps me stay focused on what matters.

Oh my gosh...well now that you've mentioned that, I have snapped like that before, and it seems to make the other person feel/do worse. I don't like to say it.

But then, you listen to the people who say stuff like "I was once where you were, and then someone told me to 'take responsibility', and as much as I hated it, they were right. I took their advice and now look at where I am" - and it always makes me wonder, are they being honest? Or, are they just trying to boost themselves back up after the person who originally said that to them made them feel put down?

[Aramas]

No kidding, right?

Same here, it motivates me and helps me stay focused on what matters.

Oh my gosh...well now that you've mentioned that, I have snapped like that before, and it seems to make the other person feel/do worse. I don't like to say it.

But then, you listen to the people who say stuff like "I was once where you were, and then someone told me to 'take responsibility', and as much as I hated it, they were right. I took their advice and now look at where I am" - and it always makes me wonder, are they being honest? Or, are they just trying to boost themselves back up after the person who originally said that to them made them feel put down?

Tbh most of the time what happens is they found someone who had pity for them, and helped them out. They then take credit for it later.

[Aramas]

I love you ESIs

Assuming that's my type lol. I'm leaning in other directions these days, but don't really know.

[ashlesha]

But then, you listen to the people who say stuff like "I was once where you were, and then someone told me to 'take responsibility', and as much as I hated it, they were right. I took their advice and now look at where I am" - and it always makes me wonder, are they being honest? Or, are they just trying to boost themselves back up after the person who originally said that to them made them feel put down?

For me there are situations where I could say they were technically correct in what they had to say, but them saying it didn't make any difference at the time because situating myself to that mindset is a battle I have to take on by myself.

[Xaiviay]

@ashlesha @Aramas Yeah, I can't think of any time where someone told me to take responsibility and it helped. I can think of some times where I had no choice but to willpower myself into tough situations (or lose something important if i didn't), and so then, it was kind of like "I just took responsibility" where before it was too painful/difficult to be worth it.

Other times, I've had people listen and understand my problem, give me a shoulder to lean on, and those people helped me more than I can fully express...like, more than helping me feel better, they somehow helped me face the problem with a renewed perspective and vigor/confidence.

[Raver]

Idk about most. Maybe some. It really just depends on circumstances. If you were a Jew in Nazi Germany, your chances would not have been good. People underestimate the strength it takes to survive in hard situations because they haven't lived in them themselves, or they've quickly forgotten what it was like to go through what they went through. A lot of blame and pointless advice could be dispensed with if people understood this.

Until you've been another person, and that will most likely never happen, you don't know what it's like to live in that person's body or feel that person's experiences. It's really fucking easy to say, "Why don't they just ....?" The reason why people ask themselves questions like this one is that they are still looking at that person's situation from within their own perspective.

I know a lot of people "know" stuff like this in their heads, but they don't really understand it.

Well, I agree that some people's circumstances are near impossible to get out of, but I think they are the exception rather than the norm due to their extreme situation. Most situations are seemingly benign, but pretty awful nonetheless. Like people stuck in a bad job with bad co-workers and/or bad boss, people stuck in a bad marriage with kids being abused by their significant other.

Of course, I am not going to trivialize these situations, they are still bad situations that are hard to get out of, but they are the more common situations nonetheless. Extreme situations like being kidnapped, imprisoned or in some isolated society are far less common, but of course do happen to unfortunate people.

Without going into detail though, I have been in bad situations before that seem benign from the outside, but aren't so I empathize with those that are in them and of course I feel even worse for those that are in the worst possible situations like women as sex slaves, etc...

[lemontrees]

I dunno but I don't think it's that easy for people to see their own situations. Usually if you're in trouble your perception is messed up? And how can you see the big picture. Maybe sometimes there's no solution, or maybe you decide on one but it sucks, so there's too much inertia to even get going. Changing your situation requires optimism and optimism is also some kind of defense (lying to yourself until things get better?) Changing requires energy that you already don't have, b/c you've put all your energy into maintaining your thin shred of a status quo. Or if there's something to lose, maybe you've tricked yourself into believing that things will change on their own.

[xerx]

People don't move at the same pace and our expectations should be structured according to everyone's needs, not just the minority of rational actors. Not everyone is a steely-eyed robot with total command over their sense of agency, nor should they be.

[Aramas]

I dunno but I don't think it's that easy for people to see their own situations. Usually if you're in trouble your perception is messed up? And how can you see the big picture. Maybe sometimes there's no solution, or maybe you decide on one but it sucks, so there's too much inertia to even get going. Changing your situation requires optimism and optimism is also some kind of defense (lying to yourself until things get better?) Changing requires energy that you already don't have, b/c you've put all your energy into maintaining your thin shred of a status quo. Or if there's something to lose, maybe you've tricked yourself into believing that things will change on their own.

It's always possible to go back and doubt your choices and see if they were right or wrong. But there's no real way to know if your choices were right or wrong, because you don't know if there was a better choice to make. I think every human does what's best for themselves at the time given their experience and understanding of life. There is no real thing called "self-sabotage." Each situation is its own universe. From that situation, every other often seems impossible. Sometimes, people provoke change. Change always happens on its own. It might be change you want or don't want, but change happens.

People sometimes try to persuade others that, "Things will get better." Sometimes this is true, and sometimes it isn't. But you can't really know until you wait and find out.

I once had a dream that seemed impossible. Now it seems trivial. On to the next thing, I guess.