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Thread: When the beneficiary is in a better position than the benefactor

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    Default When the beneficiary is in a better position than the benefactor

    All written ITR material state that the benefactor-beneficiary relation fails when the beneficiary is in a better position than the benefactor. What happens exactly? How does the relationship fail? Please share any stories or theories/hypothesis you might have as to how this relation develops in this case.

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    Status is irrelevant to actual cognitive functioning. However, people do tend to distance themselves when they realize that their words might be falling on deaf ears; some never realize, which can lead to some tense moments when immaturity is also present......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    This seems like one of those Russian folklore things that you generally shouldn't put too much stock in.

    I had an art teacher who I think was SLI. It worked out fine, she liked me a lot. I've also been in a similar position with IEIs, I didn't see it as being a problem either. Maybe the other way is more "natural", though.

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    I think this is basically true IME. I’m not sure if I would say “fail” but there’s not nearly as much of a smooth coalescing.

    @Delilah I would imagine it has to do with the IE types/dimensionalities being too similar, so if the person supplying extra information doesn’t have anything to add to the other person because the other person has more information and experience, then there’s nothing to discuss and overlapping info and with slightly different egos (in the general non-socionics sense of the word) can cause conflict. Different values too. Can’t tell you how many times LIEs with poor Fe and ethics overall, and crappy sensing have made me cringe. The beneficiary doesn’t “need” and can be put off by the benefactor easily.
    Last edited by sbbds; 11-13-2018 at 12:11 AM.

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    As reality consists of different qualities it makes it hard to be overwhelmingly over the top. There might be cases, though.
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    I sense that it would be plain awkward, because it would lack a certain purity. Like the benefactor would clearly naturally feel they were 'better' than the beneficiary regardless of status- and that should therefore leak out in all ways: including and especially status. And there'd be more respect for the beneficiary if they then had their 'proper place.' Sounds like the benefactor is really snobby, but by socionics definition that's how these relationships pan out.

    By better position I assume you meant more money, thus more power- thus more social control. Although the person with all those things isn't actually always in the 'better position' really. (I know that's a not Te-valuing thing to say, but I'm right...) It can all come apart at the seams- assuming the difference isn't too campy like a 1%er talking to a minimum wage joe. But even that can come apart at the seams, as the minimum wage person could get a better life soon and a job that pays a bit more money/more comfort for their own family - and the 1%er could get wrapped up in a nasty sex abuse scandal that totally destroys them. It might not be likely or anything, but it happens. Most of us always want money but its true what they say: mo money mo problems.

    IF it's more subtle and down-to-earth like two competitive co-workers where the benefactor is in a slightly lower position but not like OH I'M THE AUDIENCE MEMBER AND YOU ARE THE OPRAH! low or anything, I think that's what you are talking about comes more into play?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    All written ITR material state that the benefactor-beneficiary relation fails when the beneficiary is in a better position than the benefactor. What happens exactly? How does the relationship fail? Please share any stories or theories/hypothesis you might have as to how this relation develops in this case.
    The Benefactor grows bored or tired of the Beneficiary's creative function and starts devaluing it or sees it as squandered. They want more of their dominant Leading function fed and to see it in their partner polarized like their dual rather than inevitably generating a lot of it in the relationship on their own while the Beneficiary thinks it is all fine and dandy while relinquishing responsibility for more of their creative function.

    Less certain yet probable I have a feeling plus experiences that the beneficiary can come to resent the leading function in their benefactor if the relationship no longer seems to be one of mutual appreciation.
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    I have two examples. Your very question was on my mind this weekend about one such pairing, where the Benefactor is in the "better" position. It's not a beneficial relationship for either, really. But that particular relationship takes a lot of explaining; there is a lot going on there that I am contemplating now. So for now, I will tell just my own example.

    My long first marriage was with my Benefactor, an outgoing ESFj, whose confident, boisterous and outgoing social confidence impressed me. My parents were both Introvert Sensing types, and even with 3 brothers we had a pretty quiet family. I see myself as an E having grown up in an I-world, without an abundance of E-confidence in social settings (though, in college years I really came out of my shell). I liked letting my ESE-ex take the lead socially. After being married a couple of years he made a very off comment, concerning how very much he hated it when some of his friends would say to him, "How did you get a girl like that?" Maybe he seemed less refined than me? That comes to mind because of a comment a college classmate made to me after she met him before I married him; she did not feel he was "good enough" for me. That seemed to stem from his appearance alone, as it was a VERY brief meeting. (She was an artist like me, and when I asked her to specify, she explained it in describing his eyes vs. my eyes!) I did not see her comment making enough sense to consider it of any import, and I felt in-love anyway (in retrospect, it may have been "in love with love"...). But when my ex complained this way it seemed very poor form. Very off/out-of-balance. If he loved me, he should have at least been flattered by his friends' compliments. After all, it seems I was a prize he sought and won for himself (involving some pursuit and heavy-duty flattery, which - too bad - I fell for). He should have at least, in addition to his own offense, felt pride his friends thought well of his wife. And I am sure they did not mean any actual insult by it - I see it as a form of the kind of ribbing guys give each other normally. Only years later did his attitude make sense, after I learned was he was, all along, a genuine Narcissist. It always was all about him. So, between that and being the Benefactor, it just must have been too much.

    (But he worked steadily over the years to undermine my confidence, to keep himself on top. But that is all water under the bridge now, and I forgive him, and I feel sorry for him, for being who he is).
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    @Eliza Thomason yes, i have seen something like what you describe, where the benefactor is almost insulted by any praise given to the beneficiary ( I assume this is what you are meaning with your story?). I've noticed it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    All written ITR material state that the benefactor-beneficiary relation fails when the beneficiary is in a better position than the benefactor. What happens exactly? How does the relationship fail? Please share any stories or theories/hypothesis you might have as to how this relation develops in this case.
    Well now I have a SLE who has been interested in me for a year, and he sends me funny things on whatsapp, sometimes sexual humor etc, and then when he feels like i'm feeling down he comes with all the energetic advice like these random motivational videos on youtube like do this do that you'll be fine
    but on the other hand i'm really solving a lot of problems for him, making him cut his relations with uselessly fun people, leave his addictions, read good books and hang out with people whom one can start making money with and he's satisfied about that
    he even says "oh what would i do without you" and i'm like: "be the same asshole you are while you are with me"
    so yeah it's working ok so far
    however there are some times that he says something about my looks or disrespects freedom of choice or even sometimes women, and it is that moment when i tell him ok enough of this shit, i've been investing my time in you with no return for me, screw it we should split.
    and then we do
    and after a while he comes back sending random funny things again in whatsapp trying to reconcile... it goes over and over again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    @Eliza Thomason yes, i have seen something like what you describe, where the benefactor is almost insulted by any praise given to the beneficiary ( I assume this is what you are meaning with your story?). I've noticed it too.
    That is so interesting that you noticed that, too! Yes, that was the point of my story.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Delilah View Post
    All written ITR material state that the benefactor-beneficiary relation fails when the beneficiary is in a better position than the benefactor.
    "All written ITR material state" that such IR are bad in _general_. Problems have the both there.

    > What happens exactly?

    look at functional models and the basics of IR theory

    > How does the relationship fail?

    like any bad IR

    > Please share any stories or theories/hypothesis you might have as to how this relation develops in this case.

    fairytales stories where in bad IR a one gets much more problems than the other

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This seems like one of those Russian folklore things that you generally shouldn't put too much stock in.

    I had an art teacher who I think was SLI. It worked out fine, she liked me a lot. I've also been in a similar position with IEIs, I didn't see it as being a problem either. Maybe the other way is more "natural", though.

    YES , i'm really close with benefactor. He is SEI irl and we rarely argue tbh.

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