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Thread: Dialectical-Algorithmic Cognition and You

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    Default Dialectical-Algorithmic Cognition and You

    Are you an EIE, ILI, LSE, or SEI?

    ​If so, how does this form of cognition manifest in your thinking?

    From Gulenko.

    Dialectical-Algorithmic Cognition

    The second cognitive form is of particular interest: it is synthetic, negative, and deductive. The working name of this style is Dialectical-Algorithmic. Representatives of this style are Sociotypes EIE, ILI, LSE, SEI (ENFj, INTp, ESTj, ISFp, respectively)

    As Dynamics, these types synthesize associational images. As Evolutionary types, they increase deductive complexity of them. As Negativists, they work well with contradictions and paradoxes.

    Intellectual Sphere

    The essential distinguishing feature of the Dialectical style, is a view of the universe as a unified struggle of opposites. In speech it often uses syntactic constructions "if-then-else", the predictive branches of a developing process. Within limits, the Dialectic strives to find an intermediate point of dynamic equilibrium between contrasting extremes. Dialectical cognition is born from the colliding flow and counterflow of thought, the consciousness and unconsciousness. Thinkers of this style are characterized by an express inclination towards the synthesis of opposites, the removal of contradictions, which they so keenly perceive.

    Its advantages are obvious: it is the most subtle and flexible style. It can easily switch to an opposite direction, and possesses predictive ability, accompanied by an effective type of associative memory. Algorithmic thinking is also good at solving problems of classification, given their gift for recognizing complex patterns. Beyond the circumstantial conditions of a problem, it perceives a fundamental algorithm for its solution.

    According to Aristotle, Dialecticals prognostic thinking explains reality on the basis of purposive causes. For example, the cause of a sculpture is an idea of it in the head of the sculptor. The main role is played by a program, the intention of the creator. Thus, it can be considered teleological, and hence the most 'religious' in its essential thinking. Many scholars of this type sooner or later come to faith (not necessarily a church confessional).

    Social Sphere

    Historically, the first representative of a Dialectical worldview would be Heraclitus. Epitomizing the Dynamic dichotomy, he was of the opinion that "you cannot enter the same river twice" because whenever you enter again, the flow is already of different water. In more recent times it developed into Hegel's comprehensive theory of a rational system. Since Dialectical cognition, compared to other styles, is the most oriented towards creative intention, it invariably leads to ideas of a creator, an absolute, a cosmic intelligence, etc.

    Two of its representatives—EIE and ILI—are usually recognized in society as the most intellectual types. They form the backbone of intellectual elites, expert clubs, esoteric groups, etc. They are the best computer programmers, knowing better than other types how to work with moving structures—algorithms. Algorithmic diagrams consist of blocks and arrows showing the order of transitions, branches, and loop cycles. The crux of a program is its dynamic structure—pointers, rather than blocks. The formula "if-then-else" is, in essence, the core of any algorithm.

    The disadvantages in Dialectical-Algorithmic cognition include instability and uncertainty. Algorithmics suffer from difficulty in making choices and embracing unambiguous decisions. This thinking is more comparable to a symphony of flowing interwoven imagery, rather than a mechanism of clearly established instruction sets. Another problem is increased criticality, which can be so high that it incurs self-destruction, plunging them into danger of total detachment from reality, and leading to mental disorders, especially in cases of hereditary predisposition.

    Psychological Sphere

    The psyche of Dialectical types is most prone to transformations. From a psychological point of view, an unstable oscillating psyche is fertile ground for suggestibility. Occasionally Dialectics lose control over the parallel streams of thought fluctuating in their heads. They need only tune out their internal oscillation between freedom of choice and fatalism, and reinforce the latter. Doctors know that a small but accurately timed shock can throw the heart into a state of fibrillation. Likewise, a successfully directed signal at the right time can throw the Dialectical psyche into a chaotic state.

    The EIE Sociotype has a very suitable psyche for suggestive influence. It is characterized by so-called moments of imprint vulnerability. In these moments an intense suggestion is triggered—an imprint—the prerequisites of which are a state of extreme fear, confusion, or surprise. A 'No Exit' sign suddenly seen by a person of Algorithmic psyche at a time of severe emotional turmoil, may catalyze a decision about suicide. Exploiting this paradoxical nature of Dialectical types, shock therapy is capable of completely reprogramming their conception of reality, including core value judgments.
    A certain, although rare sign of Dialectical cognition—accidents that lead to states similar to a deep trance or coma, followed by sudden enlightenment or the appearance of esoteric abilities.

    The other version is slow suggestion, primarily based on entrainment through rhythmic vocalization and/or sound, multiple repetitions of the same phrase with variation. Variations in this case are particularly significant, working akin to the chorus in a song. Gradually a trance state is reached—external relaxation with internal concentration. The greater the monotony, the sooner a deep trance is reached. Hence why some people rapidly settle down and fall asleep under a monotone 'bubnezh' TV.

    Scientific Sphere

    Dialectical thinking best corresponds to the quantum-probabilistic worldview of modern physics. According to this paradigm, there are no immutable laws, only tendencies and probabilities. Quantum Mechanics is built on the counterintuitive principle of particle-wave duality, according to which microcosmic objects behave as particles and as waves. Two of the 20th century's greatest physicists disputed over this view—Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr. The former defended causal-determinism as the nature of the universe, the latter advocated a probabilistic ontology. In the aftermath, Bohr won. Though apart from its historical context, the dispute makes little sense, given that these cognitive forms are dual to one other. Jung's principle of 'synchronicity' also lies within the Dialectical paradigm.

    Contemporary British mathematician Roger Penrose has suggested that the human brain uses quantum gravity as a means for intuitive insight. He's written several books ("The Emperor's New Mind" and "Shadows of the Mind") stipulating that the brain is a quantum computer, and that Aristotelian logical thinking is actually alien to human beings. If he is right, it follows that the integral type of humanity is Dialectical-Algorithmic.

    A real-life model of this thinking—double-images periodically passing into each other. Simple example: a projection onto the plane of a truncated pyramid. After examining it awhile it alternately seems convex, with the top facing to the observer, then concave, with the rear wall receding into the distance.

    One more graphical illustration of Dialectical perception. What do you see in the picture: a vase against a black background, or two facial profiles on a white background? It depends on which one for you is the background, and which is the figure. Some see a vase and the profiles turn into a dark background, others see two black profiles and the white vase goes into the background. But once a person sees both images, fluctuations of attention begin. The picture seems to pulsate: you see a vase, then the profiles. There is a dialectical exchange of background/foreground. Triggering negative reverse perspective, where distant or darkened objects are perceived more significantly than those located closer to the observer.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Well, this one is the other possibility.

    I relate to not being able to make up my mind about some things (at least, one thing: my own type), which relates to this style of thinking but I don't see much of it beyond that. It's true I sometimes ask myself if history goes in cycles, but at the same time, I reject fate and destiny. I believe in willpower and free will, I tend to see the creation of the universe as an unimportant question as it has no impact on my own willpower and capacity to acheive or improve my life. The idea that there are cosmic forces, especially expressed as a kind of polarity (light/ dark, male/female, fire/ice ...) is poetic but doesn't seem like it helps much from the standpoint of the evolution of the individual or of civilization.


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    When I was about nine, I was riding in my mom’s car and thinking about the nature of love and hate and how they are placed in opposition, but this seemed incomplete to me, and I realized that the opposite of either could be indifference, because the stronger your love or the stronger your hatred, the more you cared, and then the two seeming opposites actually converged on that engagement axis.

    I tried to tell my mother I’d just realized that love and hate were very similar, and she got mad at me so I didn’t tell her why.

    I will flip back and forth among ways of seeing a question like “what is the nature of love and hate?” There is no one answer for every moment, unless it can be experienced in the enlightened state, which I do not have access to. The nature of my reality is situational and shifting. This is why every thought is predicated on the “if” of this peculiar moment.

    This is typical me. :/
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    @hag 2, whyyyyyyyyyy
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    This style is interesting. It is like I could have parts of this.

    I'll explain:

    My conclusion could be:
    (A if x=a) or (B if x=b) or (A and B if x=c) or (0.8*A and 0.2*B if x = d) etc.
    If not settled -> needs further investigation.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    One of my EIE friends likes to describe things as they're occurring without any real reference point... then if questioned about some aspect, he'll recontextualize it with something like, "Yeah, and that's how the alternatives potentiate each other" etc.

    I know most people here think he's alpha, but IMO Zizek exemplifies this tendency well with the way he continually goes back and forth between ideas and then synthesizes things at intervals (this is distinct from how, say, an ILE would do it, as with them the potentialities are expanded on for their own sake).
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag 2 View Post
    How disagreeable to you would a typing of SLE be for Zizek? 1-10/10

    SLE isn't DA, but that's been my baseless typing for him and I'm curious of your opinion.
    1-10... like 5-6. I can see where someone would be coming from with that, it's kind of like a compromise between alpha and EIE, but having read much of his work and listened to many lectures, I can't really stray from EIE. I feel like most just type him alpha because of how sporadic and seemingly scattered he is, but if you look at the way he modulates his energy, it's actually Fe+EJ. Anyway I don't want to derail the thread but SLEs tend to divide up variables and then condense whatever context they were bringing into the situation around them, and alphas just endlessly rearrange the recursions without ever achieving any finality; whereas Zizek, while disparate in his own way, always preserves a degree of continuity that would be out of character for both.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    this bs is not socionics
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    this bs is not socionics
    Its gulenkonics

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    It holds up pretty well in my experience. I knew about some of these styles before getting into Socionics, so it's cool that Gulenko gave them a name and explanation. And yes, I have noticed that ILI and EIE tend to think this way. @Nebula has made a few posts, for instance, that demonstrate it. So has @golden.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post

    I know most people here think he's alpha, but IMO Zizek exemplifies this tendency well with the way he continually goes back and forth between ideas and then synthesizes things at intervals (this is distinct from how, say, an ILE would do it, as with them the potentialities are expanded on for their own sake).
    Interesting that you mentioned him
    I've always typed zizek ILI

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag 2 View Post
    Perhaps the song isn't as slam-dunk of [abstract] synethesia or combination/conjoining of contradictory matter as I perceived it at the time, but I feel it's representative of those two principles still nonetheless.
    I can see what you mean. Pretty sure the guy who wrote it was Ti ego, but especially this line: “We will never know world peace, until three people can simultaneously look each other straight in the eye.” It takes some premise shifting and semantic shifting to understand what this means (As DA types tend to do). More generally, the theme of the song also represents synthesis between opposing viewpoints.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Its gulenkonics
    gulenkology
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Zizek exemplifies one of those people who are floating around somewhere. It is like SEI's can be like this as well. I need to find few grounding or attachment points.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    I think I have already told you this before. I tend to see reality in bits. There's a lot of white noise, and like how radio frequencies work, I can just tune into different stations. Almost like if I focus on one thing, everything else disappears. This makes me slow and uncertain of myself, especially when I have to make critical decisions. I can't seem to rest until I figure out a way to synthesize everything into a cohesive whole. I want reality to be consistent, and I want everything to fit into the one whole. It's like having pieces of a puzzle and I can only see glimpses of the full picture before it all falls apart again and I have to put it back together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    gulenkology
    The study of gulenko

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    Gulenko. Gulenkology. I gulenko. You gulenko. We gulenko.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pano Lou View Post
    I can't seem to rest until I figure out a way to synthesize everything into a cohesive whole. I want reality to be consistent, and I want everything to fit into the one whole. It's like having pieces of a puzzle and I can only see glimpses of the full picture before it all falls apart again and I have to put it back together.

    And Causal Deterministic types are aiming to live in middle of cohesive understanding. It is like going towards finer resolution connections between things where things start to get bit tricky. Once those finer things have been established it can be transferred with few alternations to new places.
    There can be multiple paths but there should be absolutely no contradictions.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    Quote Originally Posted by A Moderator View Post
    It holds up pretty well in my experience. I knew about some of these styles before getting into Socionics, so it's cool that Gulenko gave them a name and explanation. And yes, I have noticed that ILI and EIE tend to think this way. @Nebula has made a few posts, for instance, that demonstrate it. So has @golden.
    I actually relate quite well to D-A, but due to introverted tendencies, it usually only comes out while trying to put my thoughts into structured form or creating something, and is not so apparent in casual conversations. It is an attempt to make the intangible, tangible. It is like having a bag of images and pulling them out, trying to find the best representation. None quite do it on their own, so you put various ones together, ending up with an approximate that is not represented by one alone, but is represented in the abstract by the various images. It is an image of images. This is something artists do quite naturally. I hope this makes at least a little fucking sense.

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    Baseless-Heretical Cognition and You
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Its gulenkonics
    I prefer astralsilkyionics myself. eh heh
    ~* astralsilky

    4w5 that morphed into a 3w2 sx/sp
    Cancer Sun, Cancer/Leo Moon, Libra Ascendant, Pluto conjunct Ascendant, Sun conjunct Moon, Saturn conjunct Mercury conjunct MC in 10th, Jupiter handle of bucket pattern squares Nodes, Uranus biquintile Jupiter, Neptune sextile Ascendant, Lilith trine Ascendant, Venus in Gemini/Cancer in 9th house conjunct MC, Venus trine Uranus, Uranus conjunct Spica, Ascendant conjunct SuperGalactic Center, Sun inconjunct Galactic Center.

    Each essence is a separate glass,
    Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
    Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
    A thousand colors, but the Light is One.

    Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet

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    Examples:

    Courage is almost a contradiction in terms. It means a strong desire to live taking the form of a readiness to die. “He that will lose his life, the same shall save it,” is not a piece of mysticism for saints and heroes. It is a piece of everyday advice for sailors and mountaineers. It might be printed in an alpine guide or a drill book. This paradox is the whole principle of courage; even of quite earthly and quite brutal courage. A man cut off by the sea will may save his life if he will risk it on the precipice. He can only get away from death by continually stepping within an inch of it. A soldier surrounded by enemies, if he is to cut his way out, needs to combine a strong desire for living with a strange carelessness about dying. He must not merely cling to life, for then he will be a coward, and not escape. He must not merely wait for death, for then he will be a suicide, and will not escape. He must seek his life in a furious indifference to it; he must desire life like water, and yet drink death like wine. - Chesterton

    “Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” - Lewis

    Zarathustra, however, looked at the people and wondered. Then he spakethus:Man is a rope stretched between the animal and the Superman--a rope over anabyss.A dangerous crossing, a dangerous wayfaring, a dangerous looking-back, adangerous trembling and halting.What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what islovable in man is that he is an OVER-GOING and a DOWN-GOING.I love those that know not how to live except as down-goers, for they arethe over-goers.I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrowsof longing for the other shore.I love those who do not first seek a reason beyond the stars for going downand being sacrifices, but sacrifice themselves to the earth, that the earthof the Superman may hereafter arrive.I love him who liveth in order to know, and seeketh to know in order thatthe Superman may hereafter live. Thus seeketh he his own down-going.I love him who laboureth and inventeth, that he may build the house for theSuperman, and prepare for him earth, animal, and plant: for thus seekethhe his own down-going.I love him who loveth his virtue: for virtue is the will to down-going,and an arrow of longing.I love him who reserveth no share of spirit for himself, but wanteth to bewholly the spirit of his virtue: thus walketh he as spirit over thebridge.I love him who maketh his virtue his inclination and destiny: thus, forthe sake of his virtue, he is willing to live on, or live no more.I love him who desireth not too many virtues. One virtue is more of avirtue than two, because it is more of a knot for one's destiny to clingto.I love him whose soul is lavish, who wanteth no thanks and doth not giveback: for he always bestoweth, and desireth not to keep for himself.I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who thenasketh: "Am I a dishonest player?"--for he is willing to succumb.I love him who scattereth golden words in advance of his deeds, and alwaysdoeth more than he promiseth: for he seeketh his own down-going.I love him who justifieth the future ones, and redeemeth the past ones:for he is willing to succumb through the present ones.I love him who chasteneth his God, because he loveth his God: for he mustsuccumb through the wrath of his God.I love him whose soul is deep even in the wounding, and may succumb througha small matter: thus goeth he willingly over the bridge.I love him whose soul is so overfull that he forgetteth himself, and allthings are in him: thus all things become his down-going.I love him who is of a free spirit and a free heart: thus is his head onlythe bowels of his heart; his heart, however, causeth his down-going.I love all who are like heavy drops falling one by one out of the darkcloud that lowereth over man: they herald the coming of the lightning, andsuccumb as heralds.Lo, I am a herald of the lightning, and a heavy drop out of the cloud: thelightning, however, is the SUPERMAN.-- Nietzsche

    (Ni ego variant [synthetic intuition])

    ISFp and ESTj tend more to simply balance two sensory based premises with greater emphasis on the latter premise.
    Last edited by Karatos; 01-08-2019 at 12:56 AM.

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    Skip to 9:10 (Probably EIE)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    Skip to 9:10 (Probably EIE)

    Dafuq did I just watch, lol.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    Dafuq did I just watch, lol.
    Art.
    4w3 7w6 9w1 so/sx

    "You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plumes View Post
    Art.
    Well, however you interpret that, I still prefer the goth gf to a cat girl.

    Unless it's a goth cat girl.


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    At least EIE's seem to enjoy when someone can think how to circumvent the system big time. It was their own system.

    SEI's enjoy when someone can pull solutions out of their ass.



    I wonder if we could call dialectical algorithmic style very localized.


    Their performance seems to be particularly good at handling fine details.
    Sol mb F type due to his inability to think alternatives.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    Dafuq did I just watch, lol.
    Leave it to Vice to cover Cat Girl Manor.

  30. #30
    Banned
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    Nov 2018
    TIM
    EII 4w5 Sx/So
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    These descriptions feel draining and extremely vague for me to fully understand, as much as I would like to.
    Also sounds like a lot of the way these are written.

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