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Thread: Instinctual Stacking Confusion (Continued from Previous Conversation)

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    Default Instinctual Stacking Confusion (Continued from Previous Conversation)

    Hi. Continuing the conversation with FarDraft in this thread (from this one: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...p/56953-VI-Tip ), as (s)he suggested...
    FarDraft, the floor is yours...

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    The quotes I post will be from the other thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Now I'm confused again, haha. I really don't know. Yeah, I want to improve my position in the world, be (somewhat) famous, and remembered when I die. I want to help the world to evolve. And I don't want to be in a lower position in society. I dislike the idea of feeling like I'm inferior or subordinate to others. But I don't want to lead others either (at least not those who don't want to be lead), given how much I hate it when others do that to me. But I do sort of desire to be a leader of some kind (maybe some sort of artistic leader, like a band leader or movie director).
    This seems like type 9 and type 3 conflict more than variant conflict. Type 3 wants to make itself known whereas type 9 wants to go under the radar. Do you have 3 and 9 anywhere in your tritype or core type? I would assume that you're a 4, given you're EII with an Fi subtype, but you could also be a 1 with your strong Fi. Your art comments leads me to think 4w3 since there's an element of performance to it that the 3 wing would prefer rather than the 5 wing. My sister is similar.

    Like I said earlier, variants primarily manifest in your behaviour rather than in your motives, although they can affect those slightly. For example, the motive of a type 4 is to create a unique identity.
    The SP variant would affect this motive by wanting to have a solitary and unique identity, unaffected by the world's politics. Behaviour-wise, this individual would be more timid and withdraw under criticism as a first defense. (Note: 4 is a withdrawing type to begin with, but this variant would be especially sensitive to criticism). They may be highly individualistic but not necessarily independent.
    The SX variant would affect this motive by wanting to have a solid, strong identity that withstands external forces. Behaviour-wise, they would be highly connected to their identity, meaning that they would be combative when criticized or judged. This reminds me of gamma SF. (Note: this combativeness is different from type 8 since type 8's motivation is to control and type 4's motivation is to remain unique. Moreover, type 8s tend to be a lot less emotional than type 4s).
    The SO variant would affect this motive by wanting to express their identity to the outside world. Behaviour-wise they can be preachy in a way, like the person who deliberately wants to make themselves known as unique. Often with a 3 wing, but not usually as toxic as I present them to be. Unlike type 3, their goal is not to impress but rather to "show the world who they are". They want to be known as a person with a unique identity.

    From what you have written in this passage, you seem to show sp/so characteristics, but I can't be fully sure without more information.

    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    And terms like 'social climbing' or 'hierarchy' do sound repulsive and shallow to me. I want to treat everybody equally, no matter their 'status' in society.
    I have a desire to be a part of society (at least in some ways) but also a desire to escape it.
    I can't see the idea of treating everyone equally being related to type. Perhaps some types would treat others better because they have status (notably phobic 6s and 3s), but I think that it would be independent, for the most part.
    Your comment about social climbing and hierarchy are consistent with type 4 but not necessarily against the prospect of SO first. As I said earlier in this post, SO 4s tend to like expressing their identity with others. While they want to be unique, they also want to integrate within a community that accepts them and tend not to fit the social climbing attitude that I described before.

    Your last sentence is consistent with SO or SP 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    I concern myself with the grander scheme of things too. I want to visit other planets and galaxies and dimensions (not sure if this an SO trait or not).


    This is mostly irrelevant to enneagram (I guess it could indicate some creative type 4, 7, 9, but I don't buy into the notion of creative types in the first place). Perhaps demonstrating a preference of intuition over sensing if you're serious, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post

    I'm very aware of my (perceived) place in the society (and it breaks my heart), but I don't think I have a desire to integrate into large groups, as you said, because this sounds like it would require an extroverted/outgoing personality, which I don't have in the least. Not sure if this is what you meant or not, but it's hard for me to separate the act of integrating into a large group and something something. I'm tired. Sorry. It hurts my brain to think about this stuff. It's so confusing to me. I guess I'll never figure it out. I want romance/intimacy/one-on-one connection(s), and I also want to be famous and help the world evolve and what not. And I also want to be alone (at least given the fact that I don't have anybody I'm connected/close to). I guess we are born alone and we die alone, so I guess I might as well get used to it.


    To integrate into groups doesn't necessarily require an outgoing personality. For example, many 4s I know are a part of clubs for things that they enjoy (usually art, music, anime, etc). They find a group of individuals that they feel connected to and join them. SO 4s have a stronger desire to have this sort of community than do the other variants.

    It seems like the advice of simplifying this system earlier didn't work. In that case, try to use the descriptions I provided earlier in this post and give it another shot. I'm fairly certain you're a 4 (and perhaps negativist in socionics - maybe ESI rather than EII?), so the descriptions should be helpful. After that just comes the process of time and reading up on anything you can, especially real world examples.

    It takes some time to figure this stuff out. Enneagram took me about a year to thoroughly sort out, and I'm still unsure about some things. It eventually comes once you begin to see traits that you like and dislike in others. Then, you can go back to the theory and sort out what might be the case.
    ----- FarDraft, 2018 | ILI-2Te | 5w6 3w4 8w7 Sp/Sx | INTJ

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    I didn't realize how dead this subforum was. If you want others to see this post, I recommend moving it to the "What's my type" subforum. I can copy and paste my response there.
    ----- FarDraft, 2018 | ILI-2Te | 5w6 3w4 8w7 Sp/Sx | INTJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I didn't realize how dead this subforum was. If you want others to see this post, I recommend moving it to the "What's my type" subforum. I can copy and paste my response there.
    That's alright. Thanks for your responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    This seems like type 9 and type 3 conflict more than variant conflict. Type 3 wants to make itself known whereas type 9 wants to go under the radar. Do you have 3 and 9 anywhere in your tritype or core type?
    I do believe I'm a 4 core with a strong 9 fix. And EII. Probably not ESI. I relate to having Se PoLR. I'm an extremely gentle person, which is one of the reasons I've tended to think I'm Sx-blindspot (the other two reasons being that I'm not impulsive either, and the fact that the first test gave me So/Sp. (But other tests since then have given me other results)).


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Your art comments leads me to think 4w3 since there's an element of performance to it that the 3 wing would prefer rather than the 5 wing. My sister is similar.
    Yeah I'm very artistic, but I tend to think I have a 5 wing, as it's double-reserved and anti-conformist.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    unaffected by the world's politics
    Hmm, unsure of this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Behaviour-wise, this individual [SP] would be more timid and withdraw under criticism as a first defense. (Note: 4 is a withdrawing type to begin with, but this variant would be especially sensitive to criticism)
    Relatable.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    They may be highly individualistic but not necessarily independent.
    Hmm, not sure. I want to be independent, and hate asking for help, but maybe I'm not as independent as I'd like to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    they would be combative when criticized or judged.
    I dislike being criticized alot, but I wouldn't say I'm very combative. I'm very gentle, like I said. Though Olimpia said that the stereotype of Sx 4s being aggressive comes from the fact that most of them have an 8 fix. I myself have a strong 9 fix and am Se PoLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    The SO variant would affect this motive by wanting to express their identity to the outside world...
    to "show the world who they are". They want to be known as a person with a unique identity.
    Relatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Behaviour-wise they can be preachy in a way, like the person who deliberately wants to make themselves known as unique.
    Hmmmm.. maybe sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    While they want to be unique, they also want to integrate within a community that accepts them and tend not to fit the social climbing attitude that I described before.
    Yes, I do have a desire to be the most strange, weird and unique person in the universe, but another part of me (as much as I absolutely hate to admit it) wants to be accepted. Not sure how much I want to be part of a community, though. Yes, I do feel like I don't feel at home in the country where I live, and want to move to a different country, but I'm not sure how much I would want to participate in a 'community'. I do feel like I'm more driven to desire a romantic connection with that special someone, but I can't be sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    perhaps negativist in socionics - maybe ESI rather than EII?)
    Hmm, how is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    It eventually comes once you begin to see traits that you like and dislike in others.
    Reading up on the blindspots made me realize that I dislike people of all instinctual variants, haha.





    I dislike how the Sx instinct is described as the interesting one, and the other two as boring. Even just going by the names. The "sexual instinct" sounds a little more interesting than the "self-preservation instinct" or the "social instinct."
    I have a desire to be Sx, I suppose, (admittedly), and it's manifesting in unhealthy, obsessive ways, for me.


    Once again, thank you for your thorough insight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    That's alright. Thanks for your responses.



    I do believe I'm a 4 core with a strong 9 fix. And EII. Probably not ESI. I relate to having Se PoLR. I'm an extremely gentle person, which is one of the reasons I've tended to think I'm Sx-blindspot (the other two reasons being that I'm not impulsive either, and the fact that the first test gave me So/Sp. (But other tests since then have given me other results)).




    Yeah I'm very artistic, but I tend to think I have a 5 wing, as it's double-reserved and anti-conformist.




    Hmm, unsure of this one.



    Relatable.




    Hmm, not sure. I want to be independent, and hate asking for help, but maybe I'm not as independent as I'd like to be.




    I dislike being criticized alot, but I wouldn't say I'm very combative. I'm very gentle, like I said. Though Olimpia said that the stereotype of Sx 4s being aggressive comes from the fact that most of them have an 8 fix. I myself have a strong 9 fix and am Se PoLR.



    Relatable.



    Hmmmm.. maybe sometimes.




    Yes, I do have a desire to be the most strange, weird and unique person in the universe, but another part of me (as much as I absolutely hate to admit it) wants to be accepted. Not sure how much I want to be part of a community, though. Yes, I do feel like I don't feel at home in the country where I live, and want to move to a different country, but I'm not sure how much I would want to participate in a 'community'. I do feel like I'm more driven to desire a romantic connection with that special someone, but I can't be sure.



    Hmm, how is that?



    Reading up on the blindspots made me realize that I dislike people of all instinctual variants, haha.





    I dislike how the Sx instinct is described as the interesting one, and the other two as boring. Even just going by the names. The "sexual instinct" sounds a little more interesting than the "self-preservation instinct" or the "social instinct."
    I have a desire to be Sx, I suppose, (admittedly), and it's manifesting in unhealthy, obsessive ways, for me.


    Once again, thank you for your thorough insight.
    No problem. I have some stuff to add.

    I'm not as sure anymore, but most of what you've written still leads me to think SP first. To me, the secondary variant manifests itself as a hidden desire or underlying motivation. While the primary variant wants one thing, the secondary variant wants another, yet it's more subconscious. SO in the stack would mean wanting to connect with a group that accepts you whereas SX in the stack would mean wanting to connect with an individual. Your becoming sure of that would be the key to determining your stacking. But, as you say, you aren't sure about that.

    Your desire to have SX seems to against the idea of SX blind since the blind part tends to be what you dislike the most. I agree, however, that all instinctual variants are dislikable. I went through the same problem.

    I dislike the idea that most SX 4s have an 8 fix because it then conflates fixes with variants, which is a problem since the motives are different. An 8 is aggressive to remain control. A 4 is aggressive to preserve their ego. Behaviours are not restricted to particular types. Fixes are about having multiple motivations, not necessarily for manifesting how you react to different emotions. I reject that interpretation of the theory since it turns the fixes, which are essentially core types with lesser value, into wings, which are additions to the core type that influence motivation and behaviour. I could formally deconstruct it, but I'm not inclined to at the moment. My thoughts are not working correctly.

    Lastly, it should be noted that most people of all types "want" all three variants to some degree. It's about weighing your preferences more than anything, which is why it's difficult. It will eventually make more sense.
    ----- FarDraft, 2018 | ILI-2Te | 5w6 3w4 8w7 Sp/Sx | INTJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I didn't realize how dead this subforum was. If you want others to see this post, I recommend moving it to the "What's my type" subforum. I can copy and paste my response there.
    Daed forum is daed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    No problem. I have some stuff to add.

    I'm not as sure anymore, but most of what you've written still leads me to think SP first. To me, the secondary variant manifests itself as a hidden desire or underlying motivation. While the primary variant wants one thing, the secondary variant wants another, yet it's more subconscious. SO in the stack would mean wanting to connect with a group that accepts you whereas SX in the stack would mean wanting to connect with an individual.
    I do believe, then, that I'm probably Sx before So, as I tend to dream of romance/sex more than dreaming of being in a group of friends or what have you. I'm curious as to why you say I'm probably Sp-dominant. Is it my reserved and gentle nature?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Your desire to have SX seems to against the idea of SX blind since the blind part tends to be what you dislike the most. I agree, however, that all instinctual variants are dislikable. I went through the same problem.
    What I read was that particular blindspot-people tend to find those traits annoying when exhibited by other people. It said something like, "Sp-blindspots gets annoyed with people that has to have everything right, fiddling with the room temperature...Sx-blinds get annoyed by public displays of affection...So-blinds get annoyed by shallow chit-chat.." Something along those lines. And I realized I get annoyed with all three of them things.

    And yeah I do value a lot of Sx traits, like romance,sex,passion,intimacy,art, etc. But not aggressiveness, impulsiveness or being a dick. And I have struggled with a lot of sexual guilt and shame over the years. But I've become a strong valuer of it (at least in the last two years or so).


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I dislike the idea that most SX 4s have an 8 fix because it then conflates fixes with variants, which is a problem since the motives are different. An 8 is aggressive to remain control. A 4 is aggressive to preserve their ego. Behaviours are not restricted to particular types. Fixes are about having multiple motivations, not necessarily for manifesting how you react to different emotions. I reject that interpretation of the theory since it turns the fixes, which are essentially core types with lesser value, into wings, which are additions to the core type that influence motivation and behaviour. I could formally deconstruct it, but I'm not inclined to at the moment. My thoughts are not working correctly.
    So you're saying that Sx 4s are aggressive (regardless of their fixes and what not)? The Sx 4 descriptions tends to be very focused on aggression, hostility, and, just being a complete asshole. I (would like to think) I don't relate much to that. But I also have a hard time seeing how a 4 being focused on Sx/intimacy will somehow make the person aggressive, or how a 4 being focused on So will somehow make the person sad/melancholic. If people don't get the intimacy they want, aren't they just as likely to get sad as they are to get angry? And if people don't get the approval of their desired group, aren't they just as likely to get angry as they are to get sad?
    And how would an Sx 4 with a strong 9 fix and Se PoLR be?

    I relate a lot more to the sadness and self-shame of the So 4 than the aggressiveness of the Sx 4.

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