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Thread: Instinctual Stacking Confusion (Continued from Previous Conversation)

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    Default Instinctual Stacking Confusion (Continued from Previous Conversation)

    Hi. Continuing the conversation with FarDraft in this thread (from this one: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...p/56953-VI-Tip ), as (s)he suggested...
    FarDraft, the floor is yours...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I didn't realize how dead this subforum was. If you want others to see this post, I recommend moving it to the "What's my type" subforum. I can copy and paste my response there.
    That's alright. Thanks for your responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    This seems like type 9 and type 3 conflict more than variant conflict. Type 3 wants to make itself known whereas type 9 wants to go under the radar. Do you have 3 and 9 anywhere in your tritype or core type?
    I do believe I'm a 4 core with a strong 9 fix. And EII. Probably not ESI. I relate to having Se PoLR. I'm an extremely gentle person, which is one of the reasons I've tended to think I'm Sx-blindspot (the other two reasons being that I'm not impulsive either, and the fact that the first test gave me So/Sp. (But other tests since then have given me other results)).


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Your art comments leads me to think 4w3 since there's an element of performance to it that the 3 wing would prefer rather than the 5 wing. My sister is similar.
    Yeah I'm very artistic, but I tend to think I have a 5 wing, as it's double-reserved and anti-conformist.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    unaffected by the world's politics
    Hmm, unsure of this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Behaviour-wise, this individual [SP] would be more timid and withdraw under criticism as a first defense. (Note: 4 is a withdrawing type to begin with, but this variant would be especially sensitive to criticism)
    Relatable.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    They may be highly individualistic but not necessarily independent.
    Hmm, not sure. I want to be independent, and hate asking for help, but maybe I'm not as independent as I'd like to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    they would be combative when criticized or judged.
    I dislike being criticized alot, but I wouldn't say I'm very combative. I'm very gentle, like I said. Though Olimpia said that the stereotype of Sx 4s being aggressive comes from the fact that most of them have an 8 fix. I myself have a strong 9 fix and am Se PoLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    The SO variant would affect this motive by wanting to express their identity to the outside world...
    to "show the world who they are". They want to be known as a person with a unique identity.
    Relatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Behaviour-wise they can be preachy in a way, like the person who deliberately wants to make themselves known as unique.
    Hmmmm.. maybe sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    While they want to be unique, they also want to integrate within a community that accepts them and tend not to fit the social climbing attitude that I described before.
    Yes, I do have a desire to be the most strange, weird and unique person in the universe, but another part of me (as much as I absolutely hate to admit it) wants to be accepted. Not sure how much I want to be part of a community, though. Yes, I do feel like I don't feel at home in the country where I live, and want to move to a different country, but I'm not sure how much I would want to participate in a 'community'. I do feel like I'm more driven to desire a romantic connection with that special someone, but I can't be sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    perhaps negativist in socionics - maybe ESI rather than EII?)
    Hmm, how is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    It eventually comes once you begin to see traits that you like and dislike in others.
    Reading up on the blindspots made me realize that I dislike people of all instinctual variants, haha.





    I dislike how the Sx instinct is described as the interesting one, and the other two as boring. Even just going by the names. The "sexual instinct" sounds a little more interesting than the "self-preservation instinct" or the "social instinct."
    I have a desire to be Sx, I suppose, (admittedly), and it's manifesting in unhealthy, obsessive ways, for me.


    Once again, thank you for your thorough insight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I didn't realize how dead this subforum was. If you want others to see this post, I recommend moving it to the "What's my type" subforum. I can copy and paste my response there.
    Daed forum is daed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    No problem. I have some stuff to add.

    I'm not as sure anymore, but most of what you've written still leads me to think SP first. To me, the secondary variant manifests itself as a hidden desire or underlying motivation. While the primary variant wants one thing, the secondary variant wants another, yet it's more subconscious. SO in the stack would mean wanting to connect with a group that accepts you whereas SX in the stack would mean wanting to connect with an individual.
    I do believe, then, that I'm probably Sx before So, as I tend to dream of romance/sex more than dreaming of being in a group of friends or what have you. I'm curious as to why you say I'm probably Sp-dominant. Is it my reserved and gentle nature?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    Your desire to have SX seems to against the idea of SX blind since the blind part tends to be what you dislike the most. I agree, however, that all instinctual variants are dislikable. I went through the same problem.
    What I read was that particular blindspot-people tend to find those traits annoying when exhibited by other people. It said something like, "Sp-blindspots gets annoyed with people that has to have everything right, fiddling with the room temperature...Sx-blinds get annoyed by public displays of affection...So-blinds get annoyed by shallow chit-chat.." Something along those lines. And I realized I get annoyed with all three of them things.

    And yeah I do value a lot of Sx traits, like romance,sex,passion,intimacy,art, etc. But not aggressiveness, impulsiveness or being a dick. And I have struggled with a lot of sexual guilt and shame over the years. But I've become a strong valuer of it (at least in the last two years or so).


    Quote Originally Posted by FarDraft View Post
    I dislike the idea that most SX 4s have an 8 fix because it then conflates fixes with variants, which is a problem since the motives are different. An 8 is aggressive to remain control. A 4 is aggressive to preserve their ego. Behaviours are not restricted to particular types. Fixes are about having multiple motivations, not necessarily for manifesting how you react to different emotions. I reject that interpretation of the theory since it turns the fixes, which are essentially core types with lesser value, into wings, which are additions to the core type that influence motivation and behaviour. I could formally deconstruct it, but I'm not inclined to at the moment. My thoughts are not working correctly.
    So you're saying that Sx 4s are aggressive (regardless of their fixes and what not)? The Sx 4 descriptions tends to be very focused on aggression, hostility, and, just being a complete asshole. I (would like to think) I don't relate much to that. But I also have a hard time seeing how a 4 being focused on Sx/intimacy will somehow make the person aggressive, or how a 4 being focused on So will somehow make the person sad/melancholic. If people don't get the intimacy they want, aren't they just as likely to get sad as they are to get angry? And if people don't get the approval of their desired group, aren't they just as likely to get angry as they are to get sad?
    And how would an Sx 4 with a strong 9 fix and Se PoLR be?

    I relate a lot more to the sadness and self-shame of the So 4 than the aggressiveness of the Sx 4.

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    Thank you for that analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venus Rose View Post
    I am glad I saw this, as I had been thinking about this. I don't relate to the SX 4 description either, since I think not only is it conflating it with possibly 8 fix, but likely strong 3 influence. I don't care about competing with everyone and everything and "being superior." Also sounds like Se ego.

    Before I get to what I want to say about SX 4, keep in mind that jealousy and competitive feelings around the Sexual instinct should be pretty common to relate to (I think) for almost anyone, SX first or second. Possibly last as well, it's just that they don't focus on this very much.


    Anyways, despite not relating at all to the SX 4 description, I think the subconscious aspect of probably any SX 4 - would still be somewhat of an underlying sense of bitterness, anger, and envy. They may not express it in that "I am going to destroy you" way...lol. But it may more so come out as perhaps a bite...when someone hurts you. There's still anger there, still bitterness, a tiny bit of needing to punish the other person for hurting them. But it's not nearly as horrible as the SX 4 description makes it sound. And yes, I think 9 fix and Se PoLR may affect that. And I think what I just talked about may be very unconscious.
    I'm gentle to a fault. I'm very unforgiving and unforgetting, but I probably won't try to bite the person. It's more of an inner emotional thing, and a "I can't smile at this person (too much), and I can't initiate conversations with this person (too much). They did [...] to me.." sort of thing. So, if anything, the punishment (if you can call it that) is a withholding, I suppose, rather than an attack/bite.

    In terms of jealousy/envy, I have this as well. When there's a woman I'm interested in, it's almost like just seeing her talk to someone else makes me feel jealous. I always feel that everyone is more socially (and sexually, for that matter) more successful than I am. But it's not that I necessarily deep inside of me want to be a popular social butterfly. It's more that I feel like the woman of interest is neglecting me, I suppose, by giving attention to other people.

    So far, I haven't had a lot of problems with health or money, but I do love comfort and security, and I'm not reckless or a big spender. I've always saved my money, though money is not something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

    When I'm interested in someone, I tend to want to get them alone, I suppose. I guess I've always had an aversion (atleast in some respects) towards group interactions. I always feel like the outsider, the quiet one, the third wheel..
    And I feel like someone out there is saying, "but just because you don't like groups, doesn't mean you're not SO." Well, I guess I'm confused, and will never understand what these instincts mean.

    Of course I want to be a little bit famous (not too famous or mainstream), remembered when I die, not be in a low position in society, and I want to help the world to grow and evolve.

    I remember Olimpia typed David Lynch as Sp dom (Sp/Sx) because he's very particular about his home。She showed a clip of him saying that he doesn't like to cook in his home. I don't understand what this has to do with Sp.

    But then again I don't understand anything about these instincts.

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    Sp/sx is what I'm seeing @andreasdevig

    I don't think the sx 4 description is exaggerated. One reads into and interprets however they want to with these descriptions. The sx 4 desires intense connection with another and when they don't receive that, it can make them angry and hateful, especially towards their lover or people close to them. I'd say they're a lot more volatile than the other subtypes of 4, but that doesn't mean they would resemble an 8. That's a bad comparison. A sx 4 is more or less the archetype of a vampire. Sp 4s are likely the most calm of the 4s and will focus more on environments that are comfortable and aesthetically pleasing, and may be more independent and sensually indulgent.
    Last edited by Blue; 12-18-2018 at 08:07 PM.

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    @Blue - Thank you for your input. Could you possibly maybe explain how intimacy (Sx) + individuality (4) equals vampiricism?

    I do relate to the stoicism of the Sp 4 description. I don't want to take energy from others without giving anything back (like a vampire), nor do I want to be a 'drama king'. I try to keep my feelings inside, and I often feel guilt and shame when I don't.
    And I guess I relate to the way you describe Sp 4s there.

    I guess everybody wants to be Sx. I guess I better accept that I'm not one of the "cool guys." It breaks my heart to think I might not be part of that club of sexy, sexual, passionate, artistic, sexy vampire people. But I guess I better accept the truth (if it is indeed the truth).

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    @Blue - Thank you for your input. Could you possibly maybe explain how intimacy (Sx) + individuality (4) equals vampiricism?

    I do relate to the stoicism of the Sp 4 description. I don't want to take energy from others without giving anything back (like a vampire), nor do I want to be a 'drama king'. I try to keep my feelings inside, and I often feel guilt and shame when I don't.
    And I guess I relate to the way you describe Sp 4s there.
    Yes, sp 4 is the more stoic subtype, but if you're a 4w5, I would be careful not to confuse the self-contained quality of that type with the stoicism you mention. I also think maybe you're thinking I meant emotional vampire who take from others and don't give, but I just mean it as a collective symbol of the "vampire" and what that means, nothing more. It's the image that came to mind. I suppose if anything there's more of a jealous and possessive quality where the sx 4 and sx instinct in general wants the desired other all to themselves and idolizing the lover as having the potential to redeem you from your flawed state, which is the belief of the 4. See this link for a better explanation.

    https://sites.google.com/site/upatel8/personalitytype4
    Last edited by Blue; 12-18-2018 at 01:25 AM.

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    @Blue
    When I hear the word vampire I think of someone who takes from others, as that's what vampires do, it seems to me. They drink others' blood, and that person loses energy (blood) and the vampire gains it.
    I can be very jealous and possessive, as I stated, and I can turn from love to hate, but I wouldn't expect my hypothetical partner to change according to my every hurt feeling.
    But yes, although I (somewhat) easily feel infatuated sort of, with women, there're a lot of things that turn me off or give me 'red flags'. I'm very picky and idealistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    @Blue
    When I hear the word vampire I think of someone who takes from others, as that's what vampires do, it seems to me. They drink others' blood, and that person loses energy (blood) and the vampire gains it.
    You could say that's one way "competition" fueled by envy shows in sx 4. They can also be very giving and understanding people too.

    I can be very jealous and possessive, as I stated, and I can turn from love to hate, but I wouldn't expect my hypothetical partner to change according to my every hurt feeling.
    But yes, although I (somewhat) easily feel infatuated sort of, with women, there're a lot of things that turn me off or give me 'red flags'. I'm very picky and idealistic.
    Well I wouldn't rule out sx 4 then, if that's the case. How did you relate to the descriptions in link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    You could say that's one way "competition" fueled by envy shows in sx 4. They can also be very giving and understanding people too.
    Oh.. ohhh. Ohhhh. I get it.

    You're naughty.

    You're an Sx 4, huh?



    "How did you relate to the descriptions in link?"

    I would say I relate to Sp and Sx. Perhaps Sx slightly more so. This description doesnt involve the aggressiveness or hostility, so I can relate to it more.
    Conversely, the So description here involves more of what I would consider stereotypical So stuff (stuff I don't relate to, like wanting to be part of a glamorous in crowd).

    Stuff like this I definitely relate to though: "When they are more troubled, Social Fours fear social humiliation to such a degree that they may retreat from much social contact, becoming isolated and reclusive."

    I was under the impression that the So 4 was more like an inverted So. In other words, someone who's repulsed by popularity and wants to be outside the system. Which is part of what has made the instincts so hard to understand for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Oh.. ohhh. Ohhhh. I get it.

    You're naughty.

    You're an Sx 4, huh?
    Sx 5 actually is what I type as but I find the sx 4 a fascinating subject to study and have encountered a few of that type. I have a greater fear with intimacy and people getting close to me despite wanting it more than anything.

    "How did you relate to the descriptions in link?"

    I would say I relate to Sp and Sx. Perhaps Sx slightly more so. This description doesnt involve the aggressiveness or hostility, so I can relate to it more.
    Conversely, the So description here involves more of what I would consider stereotypical So stuff (stuff I don't relate to, like wanting to be part of a glamorous in crowd).
    I think those are better descriptions. I do think there's an aggressiveness in sx 4s while sp 4s tend to be a lot less angry. They can get angry but it's less common than in sx 4 who as I said before can be volatile. All sx types tend to be the more aggressive subtype in general.

    Stuff like this I definitely relate to though: "When they are more troubled, Social Fours fear social humiliation to such a degree that they may retreat from much social contact, becoming isolated and reclusive."
    I think 4w5s would all relate to becoming isolated and reclusive in troubled times, but social humiliation is felt more acutely in Social 4.

    I was under the impression that the So 4 was more like an inverted So. In other words, someone who's repulsed by popularity and wants to be outside the system. Which is part of what has made the instincts so hard to understand for me.
    Yes that's true. I also see this in types who would be so last about being repulsed by popularity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Sx 5 actually is what I type as but I find the sx 4 a fascinating subject to study and have encountered a few of that type. I have a greater fear with intimacy and people getting close to me despite wanting it more than anything.


    Yeah, I want it too, but it seems like an impossible task, for many reasons.



    "I think those are better descriptions. I do think there's an aggressiveness in sx 4s while sp 4s tend to be a lot less angry. They can get angry but it's less common than in sx 4 who as I said before can be volatile. All sx types tend to be the more aggressive subtype in general."



    Yeah that's one of the things that confuse me; that intimacy is somehow linked with aggression. I don't see the connection between those two. Or the connection between So and sadness.



    "Yes that's true. I also see this in types who would be so last about being repulsed by popularity."


    Mmmm.. so it sounds like being repulsed by popularity, etc. has no bearing on what your stacking is, from what you're saying.
    (For Fours, I mean).

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post

    Yeah that's one of the things that confuse me; that intimacy is somehow linked with aggression. I don't see the connection between those two. Or the connection between So and sadness.
    I don't see the connection between so and sadness either. Sx doms push for more intensity and want that charge from another which can lend itself to a kind of aggressiveness whereas sp doms would prefer more stability.

    Mmmm.. so it sounds like being repulsed by popularity, etc. has no bearing on what your stacking is, from what you're saying.
    (For Fours, I mean).
    Yes I don't think 4s would care about popularity in any way. That's for 3s!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    I don't see the connection between so and sadness either. Sx doms push for more intensity and want that charge from another which can lend itself to a kind of aggressiveness whereas sp doms would prefer more stability.
    The instinctual stacking system doesn't resonate with me, to be frank. It's hard to make sense of it, and hard to relate to it, for me. For example, I think it's possible to want intimacy without being aggressive, and being aggressive without caring much for instimacy. I also don't see the connection between sadness and SO matters, like I said.





    "Yes I don't think 4s would care about popularity in any way. That's for 3s! "

    Yeah, it was a different description of So 4s than I usually hear. This one was more to do with being part of an in crowd, being popular and what not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    The instinctual stacking system doesn't resonate with me, to be frank. It's hard to make sense of it, and hard to relate to it, for me. For example, I think it's possible to have want intimacy without being aggressive, and being aggressive without caring much for instimacy. I also don't see the connection between sadness and SO matters, like I said.
    "Yes I don't think 4s would care about popularity in any way. That's for 3s! "

    Yeah, it was a different description of So 4s than I usually hear. This one was more to do with being part of an in crowd and what not.
    From all the concepts, I found the instincts the hardest to understand, actually, including the stackings. It can take a while for you to familiarize yourself with it, especially if you are out of touch with your instinctual nature like I was.

    In terms of Social 4 and pronounced sadness/shame: It boils down to the tension between the Social's desire to fit in, and the 4's desire to be "unique"/different/stand out. In some way, the desires of the Social instinct and the Type 4 are opposed to each other. The more "different" you are, the more you will be excluded from the group. The Social 4 is painfully aware of that fact. At average to unhealthy levels, the 4 will become more and more "different" from the crowd like a black sheep, while intensely mourning the very fact that they are outsiders. It is a sort of contradictory mix of feeling proud of one's individuality but also ashamed of it due to society's dismissal of it.

    Sexual 4s are often said to be more "aggressive", and I believe that mostly boils down to many if not most Sexual 4s having an 8 fix, actually. Whereas most if not all Social 4s have a 9 fix, in my experience. Sexual 4s with a 9 fix are usually more "soft", which can be reminiscent of the Social 4's softness.

    Besides the tritype connection, Sexual 4s might be more "aggressive" than Social and Self-pres 4s in the sense that they are more "passionate"/intense. That heightened passionate streak might add more reactive outbursts of anger and the like. Sexual 4s can be the most "dramatic" in that sense. Not only that, the Sexual 4 tends to employ that passion and dramatics in order to attract a mate, almost like a mating call, haha. (They share that tendency with Sexual CP 6s and 8s.)
    Last edited by Olimpia; 12-19-2018 at 06:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    For example, I think it's possible to want intimacy without being aggressive, and being aggressive without caring much for instimacy.
    Agree. In case of sx 4s, they still can be a more aggressive subtype. They may feel and express anger more than sadness and act against their shame (despite feeling underlying shame). Sx 4s can be prideful even!

    Yeah, it was a different description of So 4s than I usually hear. This one was more to do with being part of an in crowd, being popular and what not.
    So 4s still want to belong. The group in this case would likely be more counter-cultural or elitist as opposed to popular. As Socials they still would like to have a sense of group identity. For 4s, goths for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Not only that, the Sexual 4 tends to employ that passion and dramatics in order to attract a mate, almost like a mating call, haha. (They share that tendency with Sexual CP 6s and 8s.)
    You mean female Sx CP 6s? Because for me (male) it's not the case. It depends on what you mean by "passion." For me it's being inquisitive, accusative and intellectual banter. As a social 4 drama is low key for me, rather like an undercurrent of sadness or in not following through. (maybe for some it's dramatic if I accuse them of wrong intents..., haha)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Agree. In case of sx 4s, they still can be a more aggressive subtype. They may feel and express anger more than sadness and act against their shame (despite feeling underlying shame). Sx 4s can be prideful even!
    As Sx 4 females I think of Tilda Swintons and Aimee Manns. They have this sad but neutral/flat vibe, keep their passion back to be normal. I think that pridefulness comes with contraflow.

    So 4s still want to belong. The group in this case would likely be more counter-cultural or elitist as opposed to popular. As Socials they still would like to have a sense of group identity. For 4s, goths for instance.
    I do want to belong but earnestly, who doesn't? 8 has entitlement, 4w5 indulgence and a lot complaint and in my case, 4w3 it's more like feeling deserving better quality (sp 3), being a prince who deserves better company, more educated people.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    You mean female Sx CP 6s? Because for me (male) it's not the case. It depends on what you mean by "passion." For me it's being inquisitive, accusative and intellectual banter. As a social 4 drama is low key for me, rather like an undercurrent of sadness or in not following through. (maybe for some it's dramatic if I accuse them of wrong intents..., haha)

    As Sx 4 females I think of Tilda Swintons and Aimee Manns. They have this sad but neutral/flat vibe, keep their passion back to be normal. I think that pridefulness comes with contraflow.
    I meant both male and female Sx CP 6s. What you call "inquisitive" and "intellectual banter" reminds me rather of 5, possibly 6w5. An example of a Sx/So 6w5 was Christopher Hitchens, I think.

    Tilda Swinton strikes me rather as SX last actually, So/Sp 4, that would also explain her "neutral/flat vibe", lack of Sx.
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    @Blue @Olimpia @Neokortex Thanks for your contributions. I may be missing something here, but I fail to see the connections of intimacy and aggression, the 'social sphere' and sadness. I don't see how someone who's focused on intimacy would be more aggressive than someone focused on recognition, belonging to a group, etc.. Or how a person focused on belonging to a group would be more sad than someone focused on intimacy..
    I think when people don't get the intimacy they want, they tend to get sad.
    For an Fi person with Se PoLR, I think it's easy to be half-drawn and half-repulsed by the Sx descriptions. What you see isn't always what you get. As unemotional as Fi can seem to non-users, what goes on inside the user is a different story. Many people might think I'm a Thinker or Logical person. Keeping the emotions inside is business as usual for Fi users, but I fail to see how that necessarily makes them unemotional or lacking interest in intimacy. I just can't see the connection.

    Maybe I'm indeed missing something, but, for now, the instincts don't much resonate with me, my inner values, emotions, intellect or logic. So, as I continue on my journey, to become what IEIs call an "intuitively enlightened being," I will continue, in my search... For well-being. For health. For peace and happiness, in my solitude. For stoicism. For intimacy. For romance. For passion. For art. And maybe even for some recognition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    I may be missing something here, but I fail to see the connections of intimacy and aggression, the 'social sphere' and sadness. I don't see how someone who's focused on intimacy would be more aggressive than someone focused on recognition, belonging to a group, etc.. Or how a person focused on belonging to a group would be more sad than someone focused on intimacy..
    I think when people don't get the intimacy they want, they tend to get sad.
    It's worth remembering here that it's not Sx = aggression and So = sad in general but specifically when talking about 4. Social three and seven aren't sad, for example.

    From what I understand, Sx 4 is aggressive because they have a sense of demanding what is rightfully theirs (at least in the Chestnut / Naranjo descriptions - though these are more extreme I think). They want to be special and significant in the eyes of their partner, which makes them jealous, possessive and angry when they aren't. Then with So 4, I think Olympia described it well with saying they both love and hate the fact that they don't fit in, but in whichever way they feel it, they are VERY aware of it. It's being able to read social situations with incredible detail and then focusing on every way in which they fall short (such as: "my joke didn't get as many laughs as my friend's joke", "I tripped and everybody saw", "everyone is talking about this thing and I don't know about it", "other people make friends easier than I do" or alternatively: "my joke was too clever for people to understand", "everybody likes this thing and I don't because I have better taste", "I'm more complicated which is why I don't fit in"). So that's why they feel shame more acutely. Shame is probably a better word than sad.
    "I take back like half of the exclamation points.....they make me look....eager to please. Which I AM....but I don't want anyone to KNOW that"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    I meant both male and female Sx CP 6s. What you call "inquisitive" and "intellectual banter" reminds me rather of 5, possibly 6w5. An example of a Sx/So 6w5 was Christopher Hitchens, I think.

    Tilda Swinton strikes me rather as SX last actually, So/Sp 4, that would also explain her "neutral/flat vibe", lack of Sx.
    Took a glance at Hitchens - 5 is there... might have a w6 but at the core he is a 3. I can even see him as a 5w4 for his emphasis on being attacked for his critique. Not Sx/So - he seems to be a "beta" extrovert with more Sp-dom vibes (like my uncle).
    Took another look at Swinton - the social and contraflow is there but her strong presence and the way she patronizes the interviewer somewhat in the beginning makes me think of Sx/So 4w5, such as Alain de Botton (we've had a debate about him already on PerC). I think her "pride" is an addition to her current fame, possibly inflated ego. The "flat vibe" is not the lack of Sx but the tucking it away - Sx aux. are the ones who don't mind showing it off, "creative instinct." For Sx dom it's riskier and the British upbringing may play into that.

    But back to the initial matter: I don't know about 8s but I, as a Sx CP 6, don't employ passion and dramatics to attract a mate. What I employ is actually intellectual dominance, a sort of aggression, "contrarianness." Doesn't really work, tho. DDD

    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Maybe I'm indeed missing something, but, for now, the instincts don't much resonate with me, my inner values, emotions, intellect or logic. So, as I continue on my journey, to become what IEIs call an "intuitively enlightened being," I will continue, in my search... For well-being. For health. For peace and happiness, in my solitude. For stoicism. For intimacy. For romance. For passion. For art. And maybe even for some recognition.
    "intuitively enlightened being?" Sounds like a marketing slogan for one of these "spiritual" esoteric businesses. Anyways, "instincts" is a misleading word, they had to be branded somehow. The debate is still on whether or not humans, as a species, have "instincts."
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Took a glance at Hitchens - 5 is there... might have a w6 but at the core he is a 3. I can even see him as a 5w4 for his emphasis on being attacked for his critique. Not Sx/So - he seems to be a "beta" extrovert with more Sp-dom vibes (like my uncle).
    Once again, someone getting typed Beta just because they are Sx/So. You are proving my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Took another look at Swinton - the social and contraflow is there but her strong presence and the way she patronizes the interviewer somewhat in the beginning makes me think of Sx/So 4w5, such as Alain de Botton (we've had a debate about him already on PerC). I think her "pride" is an addition to her current fame, possibly inflated ego. The "flat vibe" is not the lack of Sx but the tucking it away - Sx aux. are the ones who don't mind showing it off, "creative instinct." For Sx dom it's riskier and the British upbringing may play into that.
    It is true that British upbringing might play a role, however, nevertheless the second instinct can be quite "exhibitionistic" (even under some restraint). It is like a light, it will shine through, even amidst clouds. So/Sx is the lightest stacking, like a butterfly. An So/Sx individual is gonna play with attraction and passion. Tilda is very much not doing so, she seems uninterested in seeming sexually attractive or passionate. She is quite dry in that sense. Untypical of SX second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    But back to the initial matter: I don't know about 8s but I, as a Sx CP 6, don't employ passion and dramatics to attract a mate. What I employ is actually intellectual dominance, a sort of aggression, "contrarianness." Doesn't really work, tho. DDD
    TBH, I am bewildered by your use of Enneagram/Tritype. Must be your Creative Ne. It is all over the place. Reminds me of an LII 5w6 guy I know.
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    I still wouldn't suggest going by the CN description, and it's even more dangerous to amplify some things and make it sound like oh but the CN description isn't so far off...no it seems very far off, and it's unfair to twist and fit things into it. It should fit comfortably, otherwise there is no need to twist yourself to fit into it.

    I have a little theory, which I could be wrong about. I don't know. But I find it difficult to imagine a truly narcissistic Fi-dom, specially EIIs who belong to Delta. I have never thought something was "rightfully mine," or been aggressive the way the description suggests. I am not capable of that level of cruelty, unless of course if I were pushed into it due to trauma etc. because at that point people can be pushed into doing anything unconsciously.

    Anyways, I mean...being jealous when you feel like you are not good enough, feeling at least some sense of hate because the other person is better than you in some way, better able to be loved, more 'attractive' (though I suspect Fi users might translate attractive into "lovable" that may be how the instinct operates in them...at least that's how I make sense of it anyway). Well these feelings - I don't know, they seem kind of...just human to me.

    I think one thing to remember with the enneagram is that it's highlighting your negative potential or qualities, and it is an option for you to get to know yourself better such that you don't given in quite so much to your negative qualities. What they call "integration."

    Anyways, I don't come on here very much. If you want to have a longer conversation about this, we can (you know how to get in touch Btw, this is Venus Rose).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Once again, someone getting typed Beta just because they are Sx/So. You are proving my point.
    I meant "beta male," so not "alpha male" but more self-contained, nerdy. You can see self-pres in his body movements.

    It is true that British upbringing might play a role, however, nevertheless the second instinct can be quite "exhibitionistic" (even under some restraint). It is like a light, it will shine through, even amidst clouds. So/Sx is the lightest stacking, like a butterfly. An So/Sx individual is gonna play with attraction and passion. Tilda is very much not doing so, she seems uninterested in seeming sexually attractive or passionate. She is quite dry in that sense. Untypical of SX second.
    Depends on what you mean by "sexual attraction" and "passion." I just look at what social position the person takes, whether it's more adaptive to others or if she's trying to be more dominating and individualistic at the same time. Swinton has her own 4w5 style (which is not about physical sexuality), yet she still have some of that audacity, brashness, to go public with it and take it on with Steven Colbert ("transmitting instinct"). In the latter and in the vitality with which she does it can I find her "passionate" and "sexually attractive."

    TBH, I am bewildered by your use of Enneagram/Tritype. Must be your Creative Ne. It is all over the place. Reminds me of an LII 5w6 guy I know.
    Read this from your blog and to me it reads like an Si dom's take on the flows.
    Except for impaired empathy, an ordinary guy who's looking for down-to-earth, loving, loyal friends and a geeky, warm, voluptuous girlfriend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    I meant "beta male," so not "alpha male" but more self-contained, nerdy. You can see self-pres in his body movements.
    Ohh you meant "beta male" haha okay, difficult to know the difference on a Socionics forum
    Interestingly I don't think he is a "beta male". He stood up for himself and could actually be sort of charming.
    Hm I don't "see self-pres", I just see low sensing, but fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Depends on what you mean by "sexual attraction" and "passion." I just look at what social position the person takes, whether it's more adaptive to others or if she's trying to be more dominating and individualistic at the same time. Swinton has her own 4w5 style (which is not about physical sexuality), yet she still have some of that audacity, brashness, to go public with it and take it on with Steven Colbert ("transmitting instinct"). In the latter and in the vitality with which she does it can I find her "passionate" and "sexually attractive."
    So/Sp can be socially outspoken, Amal Clooney would be an example of an So/Sp 1 imo, she is an outspoken lawyer. She actually seems more in touch with physical attraction in the way she dresses, but that could just boil down to her being Si ego (whereas Tilda is EII imo). So/Sp individuals, especially with a strong 3 fixation, can try to look sexually attractive in the eyes of society, but there will be a certain lack of fire behind it, it is more like they are bill boards rather than humans of the flesh. That impression is being doubled if the individual is Intuitive, like Tilda. She pretty much comes across more of an "image"/idea than a breathing, living person. She is not corporeal, nor "offensive" like SX tends to be. SX is the most competitive instinct, it will fight against others to breed with what they deem to be "the best" (they can get), and I don't see that fixation being at the forefront for her at all. She seems rather like an individual who would be fine with loose connections. SX seems to be last in her list of priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Read this from your blog and to me it reads like an Si dom's take on the flows.

    Fair enough. But wouldn't I like your use of Ne more if I was Si dom?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrrmaid View Post
    It's worth remembering here that it's not Sx = aggression and So = sad in general but specifically when talking about 4. Social three and seven aren't sad, for example.

    From what I understand, Sx 4 is aggressive because they have a sense of demanding what is rightfully theirs (at least in the Chestnut / Naranjo descriptions - though these are more extreme I think). They want to be special and significant in the eyes of their partner, which makes them jealous, possessive and angry when they aren't. Then with So 4, I think Olympia described it well with saying they both love and hate the fact that they don't fit in, but in whichever way they feel it, they are VERY aware of it. It's being able to read social situations with incredible detail and then focusing on every way in which they fall short (such as: "my joke didn't get as many laughs as my friend's joke", "I tripped and everybody saw", "everyone is talking about this thing and I don't know about it", "other people make friends easier than I do" or alternatively: "my joke was too clever for people to understand", "everybody likes this thing and I don't because I have better taste", "I'm more complicated which is why I don't fit in"). So that's why they feel shame more acutely. Shame is probably a better word than sad.


    Thank you. For me, I'm a jealous and possessive person, though I wouldn't necessarily expect my hypothetical partner to live accordingly (in other words, to always make the decisions that don't hurt my feelings). I don't resonate with the aggression aspect. I try to not let those feelings completely guide the way I behave towards people (make me a dick). I try to be as fair and soft-spoken as I can be. For me, jealousy and possessiveness results in sadness and maybe avoidness. Not hostility, and certainly not aggression. And so I don't see how aggression fits in with intimacy (Sx), individuality (Four), etc. But oh well. Guess I'll never understand it.






    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    "intuitively enlightened being?" Sounds like a marketing slogan for one of these "spiritual" esoteric businesses. Anyways, "instincts" is a misleading word, they had to be branded somehow. The debate is still on whether or not humans, as a species, have "instincts."



    Yes. Thank you for your insight. I have a slightly different perspective, but you sound quite skeptical. "You must believe, Neo." - some quote from some crappy, overrated movie.





    Also, my honest opinion is that it's quite childish and rude to label people 'beta males' and 'alpha males' and so on and so forth.. As you guys are doing here.





    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    I still wouldn't suggest going by the CN description, and it's even more dangerous to amplify some things and make it sound like oh but the CN description isn't so far off...no it seems very far off, and it's unfair to twist and fit things into it. It should fit comfortably, otherwise there is no need to twist yourself to fit into it.

    I have a little theory, which I could be wrong about. I don't know. But I find it difficult to imagine a truly narcissistic Fi-dom, specially EIIs who belong to Delta. I have never thought something was "rightfully mine," or been aggressive the way the description suggests. I am not capable of that level of cruelty, unless of course if I were pushed into it due to trauma etc. because at that point people can be pushed into doing anything unconsciously.

    Anyways, I mean...being jealous when you feel like you are not good enough, feeling at least some sense of hate because the other person is better than you in some way, better able to be loved, more 'attractive' (though I suspect Fi users might translate attractive into "lovable" that may be how the instinct operates in them...at least that's how I make sense of it anyway). Well these feelings - I don't know, they seem kind of...just human to me.

    I think one thing to remember with the enneagram is that it's highlighting your negative potential or qualities, and it is an option for you to get to know yourself better such that you don't given in quite so much to your negative qualities. What they call "integration."

    Anyways, I don't come on here very much. If you want to have a longer conversation about this, we can (you know how to get in touch Btw, this is Venus Rose).


    Thank you, Venus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    Yes. Thank you for your insight. I have a slightly different perspective, but you sound quite skeptical. "You must believe, Neo." - some quote from some crappy, overrated movie.
    Also, my honest opinion is that it's quite childish and rude to label people 'beta males' and 'alpha males' and so on and so forth.. As you guys are doing here.
    Are you referring to The Matrix (1999)? According to Sidneyeve Matrix, it deliberately played into the ICT industry at a time when computer companies realized the cyberpunk genre would increase their sales.
    In Enneagram alpha/beta matters: which guy do you feel more safe with? the asthenic ectomorph that is integrated into society, has friends or the "anti-social" loner who has no social capital?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Ohh you meant "beta male" haha okay, difficult to know the difference on a Socionics forum
    Interestingly I don't think he is a "beta male". He stood up for himself and could actually be sort of charming.
    Hm I don't "see self-pres", I just see low sensing, but fair enough.
    I'd have to watch more of him to tell more but the self-pres is apparent in him having a static body position - he doesn't move around a lot, doesn't have wide gesticulations, he's sitting comfortably like a fat toad. Definitely not the Sp/So hypochondriac, contra-flow instead and "beta male" because of his body type and E5 traits. Traits such as: less social flair, less Fe, more cold/theoretical but at the same time "geek" in the sense that he is trying to use his ideas working with the social, in an opportunistic way, has that ENTPish entrepreneurial/brainstormy flexibility.

    So/Sp can be socially outspoken, Amal Clooney would be an example of an So/Sp 1 imo, she is an outspoken lawyer. She actually seems more in touch with physical attraction in the way she dresses, but that could just boil down to her being Si ego (whereas Tilda is EII imo). So/Sp individuals, especially with a strong 3 fixation, can try to look sexually attractive in the eyes of society, but there will be a certain lack of fire behind it, it is more like they are bill boards rather than humans of the flesh. That impression is being doubled if the individual is Intuitive, like Tilda. She pretty much comes across more of an "image"/idea than a breathing, living person. She is not corporeal, nor "offensive" like SX tends to be. SX is the most competitive instinct, it will fight against others to breed with what they deem to be "the best" (they can get), and I don't see that fixation being at the forefront for her at all. She seems rather like an individual who would be fine with loose connections. SX seems to be last in her list of priorities.
    With the first part I agree, except that she seems to be more focused, more self-confident, an INFJ/IEI. Each enneatype's sexuality may manifest differently. I haven't binged on Tilda vids but from seeing how assertive she was with Colbert so far, I'd say she's more present, more "on the ball." I can see Tilda wanting really intimate connections on the level of emotions... as an So/Sp 4 myself, she really does intimidate me (I feel like if I stared long into her eyes, I'd unravel). Your idea of an Sx 4 with an 8 fix may be more frequent with sensors. If she had a 1, though, that would answer your feeling her "dry" - sx blind 1s are indeed dry, "sterile." All the variants are different configurations, 4s may not immediately jump to being offensive and competitive since they are primarily a self-surrendering type. Her competitiveness and "offensiveness" I see in her persistence at portraying kooky, out of the world, nutty female characters - it's not just her w5 that reinforces that uncompromise/authenticity but the lack of shame (for a Scottish villager, she had to have more than luck to land on scripts that expected that, so perhaps her willpower also played a part).
    [...]Tilda Swinton strikes me rather as SX last actually, So/Sp 4,[...]
    She wouldn't be acting (4ish roles) if she was "double withdrawn," as you describe 4w5 in your blog. As for offensiveness, in Alain de Botton's case I could find his contra-flow only after hours of binging on his vids. They may show it only sparsely on camera. The previous vid I linked allows, for a brief moment, a glimpse into her inner "unruly, nasty child."

    Fair enough. But wouldn't I like your use of Ne more if I was Si dom?
    No..., you wouldn't. DD Ne is supposed to be "all over the place" for those who can't follow it's "train of connecting the dots."
    Last edited by Neokortex; 12-23-2018 at 09:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andreasdevig View Post
    @Blue @Olimpia @Neokortex Thanks for your contributions. I may be missing something here, but I fail to see the connections of intimacy and aggression, the 'social sphere' and sadness. I don't see how someone who's focused on intimacy would be more aggressive than someone focused on recognition, belonging to a group, etc.. Or how a person focused on belonging to a group would be more sad than someone focused on intimacy..
    I think when people don't get the intimacy they want, they tend to get sad.
    That's a fair point. I still think there is an anger to the subtype, however that may show up. They are more likely to turn their pain into anger, or be more conscious of anger in their personality, and that doesn't mean treating others like an ass or being disrespectful to others, as seems to be how that quality of "aggression" is being interpreted here. You can release your anger and frustration out on things other than people right? Even turn it in on oneself perhaps? 4s in general, like all image types, are said to be a type that has issues with hostility and identity fwiw, or so says Riso-Hudson below.

    Two major themes in this Triad involve identity issues (“Who am I?”) and problems with hostility (“I hate you for not loving me in the way I want!”). Because Twos, Threes, and Fours unconsciously know that their identity is not an expression of who they really are, they respond with hostility whenever their personality-identity is not validated. Hostility serves both to deflect people who might question or devalue this identity, and to defend these types against deeper feelings of shame and humiliation.
    I don't think people who are Se PoLR can escape this as 4s, honestly.

    Maybe I'm indeed missing something, but, for now, the instincts don't much resonate with me, my inner values, emotions, intellect or logic. So, as I continue on my journey, to become what IEIs call an "intuitively enlightened being," I will continue, in my search... For well-being. For health. For peace and happiness, in my solitude. For stoicism. For intimacy. For romance. For passion. For art. And maybe even for some recognition.
    You're certainly not sx last. Haha the way you wrote this is almost sp (well-being, health, stocism)/sx (intimacy, romance, passion), and so last (and maybe even for some recognition). Was that deliberate? You have the idea, so it's a matter of just determining which is your priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrrrmaid View Post
    It's worth remembering here that it's not Sx = aggression and So = sad in general but specifically when talking about 4. Social three and seven aren't sad, for example.
    Right. Depending on who you ask some will say the sx subtype is usually the more aggressive subtype in general of each specific type.

    From what I understand, Sx 4 is aggressive because they have a sense of demanding what is rightfully theirs (at least in the Chestnut / Naranjo descriptions - though these are more extreme I think). They want to be special and significant in the eyes of their partner, which makes them jealous, possessive and angry when they aren't. Then with So 4, I think Olympia described it well with saying they both love and hate the fact that they don't fit in, but in whichever way they feel it, they are VERY aware of it. It's being able to read social situations with incredible detail and then focusing on every way in which they fall short (such as: "my joke didn't get as many laughs as my friend's joke", "I tripped and everybody saw", "everyone is talking about this thing and I don't know about it", "other people make friends easier than I do" or alternatively: "my joke was too clever for people to understand", "everybody likes this thing and I don't because I have better taste", "I'm more complicated which is why I don't fit in"). So that's why they feel shame more acutely. Shame is probably a better word than sad.
    Well said. That is exactly how I see it play out in Social 4s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post

    As Sx 4 females I think of Tilda Swintons and Aimee Manns. They have this sad but neutral/flat vibe, keep their passion back to be normal. I think that pridefulness comes with contraflow.
    I'm not familiar with either very much, but I would say Tilda is social. Her image to me is identifying with that outsider status in a very overt way that others can recognize. When I think of sx 4 females I think of Shirley Manson from Garbage and Lyyke Li. This is what I mean with sx 4s and aggression said by Manson: "I have a temper on me that could hold back tides," or Lykke Li, "I wanted to create something really aggressive and psychedelic." Lyyke Li seems like a sx 4 with a 9 fix too btw.

    I do want to belong but earnestly, who doesn't? 8 has entitlement, 4w5 indulgence and a lot complaint and in my case, 4w3 it's more like feeling deserving better quality (sp 3), being a prince who deserves better company, more educated people.
    Yes, that's the attraction to an elitist group.
    Last edited by Blue; 12-24-2018 at 09:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    I'd have to watch more of him to tell more but the self-pres is apparent in him having a static body position - he doesn't move around a lot, doesn't have wide gesticulations, he's sitting comfortably like a fat toad. Definitely not the Sp/So hypochondriac, contra-flow instead and "beta male" because of his body type and E5 traits. Traits such as: less social flair, less Fe, more cold/theoretical but at the same time "geek" in the sense that he is trying to use his ideas working with the social, in an opportunistic way, has that ENTPish entrepreneurial/brainstormy flexibility.



    With the first part I agree, except that she seems to be more focused, more self-confident, an INFJ/IEI. Each enneatype's sexuality may manifest differently. I haven't binged on Tilda vids but from seeing how assertive she was with Colbert so far, I'd say she's more present, more "on the ball." I can see Tilda wanting really intimate connections on the level of emotions... as an So/Sp 4 myself, she really does intimidate me (I feel like if I stared long into her eyes, I'd unravel). Your idea of an Sx 4 with an 8 fix may be more frequent with sensors. If she had a 1, though, that would answer your feeling her "dry" - sx blind 1s are indeed dry, "sterile." All the variants are different configurations, 4s may not immediately jump to being offensive and competitive since they are primarily a self-surrendering type. Her competitiveness and "offensiveness" I see in her persistence at portraying kooky, out of the world, nutty female characters - it's not just her w5 that reinforces that uncompromise/authenticity but the lack of shame (for a Scottish villager, she had to have more than luck to land on scripts that expected that, so perhaps her willpower also played a part).She wouldn't be acting (4ish roles) if she was "double withdrawn," as you describe 4w5 in your blog. As for offensiveness, in Alain de Botton's case I could find his contra-flow only after hours of binging on his vids. They may show it only sparsely on camera. The previous vid I linked allows, for a brief moment, a glimpse into her inner "unruly, nasty child."


    No..., you wouldn't. DD Ne is supposed to be "all over the place" for those who can't follow it's "train of connecting the dots."
    Many men falsely believe that "beta male" boils down to lack of big muscles and being intellectual. That's simply not true. Jordan Peterson isn't a "beta male" either. "alpha" bs "beta" boils down to strength of character for most women, afaik. A guy with muscles can be "beta" if he acts like a "p*ssy" and has no opinions, no boundaries, no self esteem/confidence, is a pushover, acts insecure/needy, etc. Christopher Hitchens does/is none of that, so i think he's not "beta". He might not "look" "Alpha", but his personality and confidence are strong, and he's socially savvy, so women won't think too poorly of him in that respect. But to be fair, I might be biased. Also it's amusing to see that you type him ILE and WSS types him ESI. I think the truth is in the middle: ILI-Te. He even fits "the critic" stereotype.

    4w5 can be Social first, which results in an "ambiverted" focus/outlook.

    It is not a matter of not comprehending the "dots", but merely not finding them helpful. I find it makes matters too convoluted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokortex View Post
    Are you referring to The Matrix (1999)? According to Sidneyeve Matrix, it deliberately played into the ICT industry at a time when computer companies realized the cyberpunk genre would increase their sales.
    I'm not surprised. There were at least three movies dealing with themes of virtual reality, mindbendage, philosophy, reality twists, etc. that came out that spring of 1999. You had the Matrix (1999), eXistenZ (1999) and the Thirteenth Floor (1999). Obviously the best of these was the 13th Floor (1999). Second place eXistenZ (1999). And then wayyyy down at last place, in third place... you had the Matrix (1999).



    In Enneagram alpha/beta matters: which guy do you feel more safe with? the asthenic ectomorph that is integrated into society, has friends or the "anti-social" loner who has no social capital?
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but it's beside the point, as I see it. Labeling people as 'beta males', to me, reeks of a sort of "Look at this beta male pussy faggot loser cuck. What a fucking faggot. Look at this cuck.. Let us all point at him and call him names and make fun of him, for his inability to get laid. What a loser. Fag." Not extremely mature or civilized, if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    That's a fair point. I still think there is an anger to the subtype, however that may show up. They are more likely to turn their pain into anger, or be more conscious of anger in their personality, and that doesn't mean treating others like an ass or being disrespectful to others, as seems to be how that quality of "aggression" is being interpreted here. You can release your anger and frustration out on things other than people right? Even turn it in on oneself perhaps? 4s in general, like all image types, are said to be a type that has issues with hostility and identity fwiw, or so says Riso-Hudson below.



    I don't think people who are Se PoLR can escape this as 4s, honestly.



    You're certainly not sx last. Haha the way you wrote this is almost sp (well-being, health, stocism)/sx (intimacy, romance, passion), and so last (and maybe even for some recognition). Was that deliberate? You have the idea, so it's a matter of just determining which is your priority.
    Yeah that was deliberate, hehe. It was me trying to say that I relate to all the instincts. Which I do, but I also simultaneously don't. I relate to stuff in all of them, and non-relate to stuff in all of them. With Socionix, I feel fairly certain I'm EII. In Enneagream, I relate to the 4 and the 9 as well. But in terms of the instincts, there isn't any of them that makes me say, "Yeah that's definitely me." Nor is there any one of them that makes me go, "That's definitely not me," as I recall. I thought I was So/Sp, partly because that's what the first test gave me (4w5 5w4 [9w1?] So/Sp). I can't be sure, but I'm thinking So blindspot is possible. I do relate to stuff from there, though, as well.. such as the inner conflict between wanting to be accepted and wanting to be different.

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    unrealistic dreamer turd mrrrmaid's Avatar
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    If you relate to 9 as well as four, and not the anger or spitefulness of four, could that be your type? 9 sx with a 4 fix might work. Fwiw I think all fours have a certain amount of entitlement and spite to them, and 4 sx most of all.

    (I only skimmed through this tbh and don't know you at all so if you mentioned here or elsewhere why you picked 4 over 9 then ignore me )
    "I take back like half of the exclamation points.....they make me look....eager to please. Which I AM....but I don't want anyone to KNOW that"
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrrmaid View Post
    If you relate to 9 as well as four, and not the anger or spitefulness of four, could that be your type? 9 sx with a 4 fix might work. Fwiw I think all fours have a certain amount of entitlement and spite to them, and 4 sx most of all.

    (I only skimmed through this tbh and don't know you at all so if you mentioned here or elsewhere why you picked 4 over 9 then ignore me )
    It's possible. I've tended to relate slightly more to 4 than 9. I'm not aggressive in the least, though. I'm gentle to a fault. I didn't know 4s were necessarily aggressive, perhaps given that a good portion of them seem to be Se PoLRs.

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    Haikus VenusRose's Avatar
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    I guess I will elaborate on what I think of SX combined with 4...

    I am honestly quite sick and tired of the stereotypes roaming around. Not aimed at anyone specific! You guys have provided good information for andreasdevig to reflect on, but I feel the urge to provide my own perspective since I see this somewhat differently.

    I don't think all SX 4s are automatically entitled, narcissistic, and spiteful. Specially combined with an Fi base...it just doesn't make any sense. I consider EII, for instance, to tend towards modesty. Perhaps a 5 wing could contribute to being attracted to human, authentic, raw things, instead of something mostly based on image (which is central to 4 anyway, even with 5 wing, but the narcissistic aspect of it is probably highlighted with 3 wing, and possibly the other qualities that neither I not andreasdevig relates to).

    Here are the things I don't relate to (and perhaps several other SX 4s don't either):
    - entitlement
    - narcissism
    - spitefulness in the way it is described
    - lack of empathy basically
    - anger
    - aggression (hostile or violent behavior or attitudes toward another; readiness to attack or confront).
    (People might disagree on the last one for me but I have not been myself on this forum due to previous recent trauma with abuse and bullying. I wouldn't say I attack people at all most of the time, except the rare instances. Otherwise I mostly just want peace).
    - malicious
    - wanting to be superior
    - being "consciously aware" of their anger
    - "demanding what is rightfully theirs"
    - "They want to be special and significant in the eyes of their partner"
    (mostly issue with significant in the last one, that sounds very 3._

    Actually, I should copy paste what 3 is, because a lot of what is attributed to 4, reminds me of type 3. Hence why I cannot relate to it because type 3 is heavily in my shadow, it has basically nothing to do with my personality.

    THE ACHIEVER
    Enneagram Type Three
    The Success-Oriented, Pragmatic Type:
    Adaptable, Excelling, Driven, and Image-Conscious
    - to want to be significant in their partner's eyes

    Basic Fear: Of being worthless
    - wants to be superior, aka compete.
    - narcissism. though not limited to any specific type.


    Basic Desire: To feel valuable and worthwhile
    For 3 competition arises from...basically anything. To me that is the ocean they swim in. They have to 'excel' no matter what. I would think with SX added to that, they would indeed want to be 'the best' so to speak. That sounds very 3, and I am inclined to attribute it to 4w3s and 3s and in general.

    I am not a very competitive person. I rather give up before I even try.

    This might be 8 and/or 8 influence:
    entitlement
    - narcissism
    - spitefulness in the way it is described
    - lack of empathy basically
    - anger
    - aggression (hostile or violent behavior or attitudes toward another; readiness to attack or confront).
    - malicious
    - being "consciously aware" of their anger
    - "demanding what is rightfully theirs"

    actually, almost all of it can be very 8. Which would explain why 9 fixed 4s don't relate to it.

    As for your "core" type, I believe all types go down to your core, but to simplify it, whatever is at the heart of things that are bothering you consciously and unconsciously and affecting your behavior most so in the present and in the past, would be your "core" type in the enneagram.

    I am very shy, modest, nice, peaceful albeit - intense at times, emotional, i can indeed "bite" so to speak when hurt, but that anger isn't there because im entitled, it's there because i think I feel that im ugly and repulsive to the core (im not actually but, that's how it feels at times). It's not hatred because of some entitlement, it's hatred because i hate myself and all i can see in the other person's eyes is the same thing. I could go deeper into it and but needless to say im not comfortable with the predominant image of a SX 4 being forced onto me or super-imposed onto me. I don't really want to argue or be attacked about this, unless you wanted to do it non-aggressively.

    Type 4: "there's something horribly wrong with me, I am ugly inside" + SX: my meaning in everything, sense of self, self worth, and very life essence itself seems to be tied to the 'special other half': There's something horribly ugly at my core, but I must find someone who will love me regardless.

    None of that, in my opinion, necessitates vengeance, lack of empathy, entitlement, spitefulness etc. etc.

    But then I probably look at those things differently than others do.

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    unrealistic dreamer turd mrrrmaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    - "They want to be special and significant in the eyes of their partner"

    - "demanding what is rightfully theirs"
    Just wanted to respond to these because they were my words. Only they aren't at all, I pulled them both from SX 4 descriptions.

    Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner has ever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships"
    - Tom Condon

    Connected to a hateful emotionality, an attitude of superiority sometimes exists along with —and in compensation for—a bad self-image. Though the individual may seethe in self-deprecation and self-hate, the attitude to the outer world is in this case that of a “prima-donna” or at least a very special person. When this claim of specialness is frustrated it may be complicated by a victimized role of “misunderstood genius.” In line with this development, individuals also develop traits of wit, interesting conversation, and others in which a natural disposition towards imaginativeness, analysis, or emotional depth (for instance) are secondarily put to the service of the contact need and the desire to summon admiration.
    - Naranjo

    Being significant is 100000% a four thing. They want to be special and not mundane. Three is about success and usefulness. Significant is about being unique and noteworthy. Even as a 4 So I have an unhealthy obsession with wanting to be the best, most loved partner my boyfriend has ever had. I used that word specifically because I saw it in a type 4 description and it really stuck out and resonated with me - though I can't remember which one it was. Chestnut uses the word 'special' a lot, which basically is being used in the same way I was using 'significant' above:

    While Twos strive to have a likable, pleasing image, and Threes create an image of achievement and success, Fours present themselves as unique and special
    The specific experience and expression of envy in Fours, however, differs by subtype. The Social Four dwells in a sense of deficiency and shame heightened by actively envying others; the Self-Preservation Four denies envy by strenuously pursuing whatever is seen as lacking; and the Sexual Four gets competitive, striving to prove themselves as superior, in response to feeling envious.
    - from "The Complete Enneagram"

    ("Special" and "significant" don't have to be positive words here: they just mean not mundane )

    Riso & Hudson use the words "assertive", "aggressive", "dynamic" and "possessive" for sexual four. Maitri uses the word "hate", Naranjo "the mad four", Chestnut "competition" and "hostility."

    Maybe this is exaggerated by 8 fixes, like mentioned above, but it goes beyond just being a "stereotype" when basically every major enneagram writer says the same thing.

    fwiw I don't see myself as aggressive in the classic sense either and I don't think anyone would describe me as that but I am very competitive, envious and spiteful. I have to check myself for all of these things all the time. I.e. on an average - unhealthy day, someone can't get complimented in front of me without me turning that inward on myself (self criticism for not being the one getting complimented) and spite for the other (immediately picking up on their flaws). When I was still in my teens and not as smooth as I am now, someone got complimented for something that was usually MY thing to get complimented for and I very loudly derided them and undermined the compliment in earshot of that person, for example. Not great but also something I still do in my head. For comparison's sake, in the same situation my 3w4 friend just talks more about her own achievements, and will one-up them and show off rather than try to drag the other down.

    Hope this didn't come across as aggressive, since I know you said you didn't want to argue. Just wanted to explain why I chose to describe sx four in the way I did. Even with Se PoLR you should still be more aggressive than other EII 4s (and noticeably more so than 9s). I also imagine most 4s have 1D Se since I associate it with IEI + EII predominantly so being Se PoLR shouldn't change much.
    Last edited by mrrrmaid; 12-25-2018 at 12:20 AM. Reason: added a second BC quote
    "I take back like half of the exclamation points.....they make me look....eager to please. Which I AM....but I don't want anyone to KNOW that"
    - Carrie Fisher

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    Haikus VenusRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrrmaid View Post
    Just wanted to respond to these because they were my words. Only they aren't at all, I pulled them both from SX 4 descriptions.
    I think archetypes are like guiding lights, it doesn't make the entirety of you. I just don't want something forced on me that doesn't belong to me. I would think others would feel similarly too...and because none of this is scientific...people have their own way of interpreting these archetypes, and imo it's fine to talk about how you personally see things, even if it differs from the way others have described it.

    Being significant is 100000% a four thing. They want to be special and not mundane.
    Yeah, well, it depends on the way "significance" is stated. I associate an overt desire to be "unique" and to be "significant" with type 3 influence. I just cannot see that in myself...

    5 being a head type, with it brings an unconscious feeling of being irredeemably and horribly broken inside, but not necessarily a conscious urge to be "unique, significant and compete." I don't care about those things. It's just...again not something I am and not something I ever have been...

    Three is about success and usefulness. Significant is about being unique and noteworthy.
    Being unique and noteworthy by playing on society's terms and "competing" and coming out the best again in the eyes of the status quo - that's 3.

    4s don't care, imo. Of course, 4 with 3 influence can be like that.

    Threes can very much care about being unique just in the way you described, but like I said, they want to be, but they don't necessarily already feel unique in the sense of being the "ugly duckling"! That's 4. Everything else...well I can see that as other types as well, including 3.

    4s are already nothing like anyone else, why bother competing? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with that haha, just trying to provide I guess what they might be thinking.

    Honestly though, I don't think anyone else is not "deep" it's just that people can act in shallow, uninteresting ways at times and what 4 wants more than anything is to see your 'ugliness' if you will, they just want you to be you. The 'authentic' you. No one is 'deeper' than anyone else...

    Even as a 4 So I have an unhealthy obsession with wanting to be the best, most loved partner my boyfriend has ever had. I used that word specifically because I saw it in a type 4 description and it really stuck out and resonated with me - though I can't remember which one it was. Chestnut uses the word 'special' a lot, which basically is being used in the same way I was using 'significant' above:
    Yeah, it sounds like 3-ishness again. I mean it could be 4 but it also sounds like 3 mixed in there, which is why I don't relate to it at all.

    As for wanting to be "most loved" I mean anyone I think would like to mean the absolute world to the other person...I think. But then, I think most of these archetypes are human, anyway.

    ("Special" and "significant" don't have to be positive words here: they just mean not mundane )
    "special" and "significant" to me feels like...idk like something artificial. It's not natural. I can't relate to those words specifically. 4s hone their 'uniqueness' because they already feel ugly inside in the sense of being uglier than everyone else - and so "unique" in that way. "Special" and significant the way it is used in society usually, I associate with type 3. Special and significant in the eyes of the status quo.

    Riso & Hudson use the words "assertive", "aggressive", "dynamic" and "possessive" for sexual four. Maitri uses the word "hate", Naranjo "the mad four", Chestnut "competition" and "hostility."
    Chestnut copied from Naranjo as far as I can tell. Also, this is from word of mouth, I don't have actual proof yet - but apparently Naranjo took back his description of the SX 4 saying he didn't consider it as accurate anymore.

    Those authors may have re-stated the previous information on the enneagram types, perhaps not wanting to change much about them.

    I think there can be many variations on a type, I am not going to box "Sx 4s" into anything yet. Except maybe the very basic core.

    Maybe this is exaggerated by 8 fixes, like mentioned above, but it goes beyond just being a "stereotype" when basically every major enneagram writer says the same thing.
    I could perhaps be wrong but maybe they...
    1) copied from each other
    and 2) possibly took the loudest example of an SX 4 since it was most obvious. Like I said, spitefulness and meanness are actually pretty human...I can certainly see that someone driven by envy could behave that way.

    But the problem comes with Se PoLRs. Se PoLR descriptions explicitly state xIIs would not at all be into those things. At all.

    But since not all SX4s would be Se PoLR or even the louder version of the type...they may have been omitted from these descriptions.

    fwiw I don't see myself as aggressive in the classic sense either and I don't think anyone would describe me as that but I am very competitive, envious and spiteful.
    I know we are talking about types here but... honestly this just sounds normal. Not saying it is unrelated to type but I think sometimes people project very human things onto type. I think I would give Se PoLR 4s some leeway with that "envious and spiteful" stuff though.

    I have to check myself for all of these things all the time. I.e. on an average - unhealthy day, someone can't get complimented in front of me without me turning that inward on myself (self criticism for not being the one getting complimented) and spite for the other (immediately picking up on their flaws). When I was still in my teens and not as smooth as I am now, someone got complimented for something that was usually MY thing to get complimented for and I very loudly derided them and undermined the compliment in earshot of that person, for example. Not great but also something I still do in my head. For comparison's sake, in the same situation my 3w4 friend just talks more about her own achievements, and will one-up them and show off rather than try to drag the other down.
    I am not mean, I don't want to do something like that. Not judging you, it's just not something I would do.
    It also sounds...normal. Perhaps you might get a little exasperated with me pointing this out but...after all the e-types are universal human themes/archetypes, haha.

    Hope this didn't come across as aggressive, since I know you said you didn't want to argue. Just wanted to explain why I chose to describe sx four in the way I did. Even with Se PoLR you should still be more aggressive than other EII 4s (and noticeably more so than 9s). I also imagine most 4s have 1D Se since I associate it with IEI + EII predominantly so being Se PoLR shouldn't change much.
    I am not aggressive, using the description that I used for my last post. Unless I get hurt badly, which rarely happens, obviously. My heart has to be broken badly. Even then I wouldn't go against my values (Fi) or be cruel to someone (Se PoLR).

    Many people are aggressive, spiteful, vindictive, envious - imo most people are capable of these things...4-ishness or not. The thing with EIIs though is that they try their best to steer clear of those things. Of course extreme instances and trauma can drive any type into doing really anything, but generally speaking.

    If we go by Naranjo description, the SO 4 would be me, even though I am not Social first. I just want to make clear I am definitely not the SX 4 description lol, and the social 4 is strikingly very much like me. It was wayyy too accurate. Except my issues are not tied to the social realm as intensely as they are to the SX realm. But in my demeanor, I am absolutely the SO 4 description and not the SX 4. Which is why I don't think they necessarily got the subtype right.
    Last edited by VenusRose; 12-25-2018 at 03:31 AM.

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    Haikus VenusRose's Avatar
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    The second manifestation of our PoLR is a complete aversion to force, aggression, conflict, violence, competition, and the whole idea of bending people and situations to get what one wants. This is where you get the “overly sensitive” aspect of our personalities.
    !!!

    This. This is important (taken from an Se PoLR description for EII, I am sure you can find more if you look). But to say that SX 4s HAVE to be those things...wouldn't that imply Se PoLRs can't be SX 4s? Haha.

    The rest of it:

    If someone says something in a way that is remotely confrontational, we retreat. If someone really wants to argue, we fall silent. If people are fighting, we will either try to settle the disagreement, get up and leave, or both. We will not “intrude on others' space,” whether physically or psychologically. We are virtually incapable of making anyone do anything or refusing a request. No matter how badly we may want something, if you flatly refuse, we are likely to back down, at least after a short while. EIIs do not make things happen – we prefer to wait for them to happen or let someone else take the lead. In those rare occasions where we try to be forceful, we become extremely uncomfortable and vulnerable. It's terrifying. We want everyone to get along, to share their thoughts in an accepting and peaceful discourse. We want everyone to “win” and leave unscarred, and since that seldom happens in an Se environment, we avoid such environments.
    YES!!!
    Sorry lol, im just glad that that descriptions understands me so damn well, hahaha.
    I have been on defense and uncomfortable having to engage my "Se" which I am sure I am horrible at, but yes it makes me feel horribly vulnerable. I prefer an environment where people aren't fighting or trying to step on each other. At least, I would like to be left in peace. You can disagree but please don't attack me, try to make me look stupid, over-write what I actually mean with something else entirely etc.

    I tried to not bold at least something but I couldn't find anything that I shouldn't bold. That description is completely me.
    Last edited by VenusRose; 12-25-2018 at 03:31 AM.

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    unrealistic dreamer turd mrrrmaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    Yeah, well, it depends on the way "significance" is stated. I associate an overt desire to be "unique" and to be "significant" with type 3 influence. I just cannot see that in myself...

    5 being a head type, with it brings an unconscious feeling of being irredeemably and horribly broken inside, but not necessarily a conscious urge to be "unique, significant and compete." I don't care about those things. It's just...again not something I am and not something I ever have been...


    Being unique and noteworthy by playing on society's terms and "competing" and coming out the best again in the eyes of the status quo - that's 3.

    4s don't care, imo. Of course, 4 with 3 influence can be like that.

    Threes can very much care about being unique just in the way you described, but like I said, they want to be, but they don't necessarily already feel unique in the sense of being the "ugly duckling"! That's 4. Everything else...well I can see that as other types as well, including 3.

    4s are already nothing like anyone else, why bother competing? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with that haha, just trying to provide I guess what they might be thinking.
    Okay I won't respond to most of this because you said you didn't want to debate and I don't particularly either but this bit I think is us using different language for the same thing.

    "Being unique and noteworthy by playing on society's terms" - you added this bit, I never mentioned playing on society's terms and that is indeed threeish. I said in the eye's of the partner. There's nothing that I said that suggests wanting prestige (though I think 4w3 could want that) but it's just not being normal. This could also be negative, like I mentioned above, in that it could be "I am the MOST ugly duckling", "I suffer more than other people", "I'm not like other people", all of which is the core of 4 and all of which are the four seeking to be noteworthy because that's a way of dealing with that pain. Calling yourself an ugly duckling is calling yourself significant in a negative way because it's still distinguishing yourself from the norm.

    Also it's interesting you said what I said was just normal behaviour, because to me 'ugly duckling' syndrome is just normal behaviour and it's the envy, spite, self-absorption and range of emotions (including anger) that make four different. Mb we just have very different interpretations of the type
    "I take back like half of the exclamation points.....they make me look....eager to please. Which I AM....but I don't want anyone to KNOW that"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post

    I don't think all SX 4s are automatically entitled, narcissistic, and spiteful. Specially combined with an Fi base...it just doesn't make any sense. I consider EII, for instance, to tend towards modesty. Perhaps a 5 wing could contribute to being attracted to human, authentic, raw things, instead of something mostly based on image (which is central to 4 anyway, even with 5 wing, but the narcissistic aspect of it is probably highlighted with 3 wing, and possibly the other qualities that neither I not andreasdevig relates to).
    Yes, I agree that the 3 wing would bring out the narcissistic traits more. I don't agree that it doesn't make sense that you think Fi base can't have those feelings. Se is about action. You don't even have to act on those feelings as a 4 with Fi and Se PoLR. If you don't have those negative feelings, it would surprise me if one was a 4. A type that tends towards modesty is a 9, not a 4.

    Here are the things I don't relate to (and perhaps several other SX 4s don't either):
    - entitlement
    - narcissism
    That can be more attributed to 3 wing.

    - spitefulness in the way it is described
    In what way? A 4 is a type driven by envy. That surely can make one spiteful if you think someone has a better lot in life than you.

    - lack of empathy basically
    You're putting words in the type description's mouth. Where does it say this or imply in any description that sx 4s lack empathy? I find 4s no matter what the subtype to be one of the more empathetic types.

    - anger
    - aggression (hostile or violent behavior or attitudes toward another; readiness to attack or confront).
    Yes, 4s can be angry, but it doesn't say they show violent behavior or are ready to attack or confront. That's an 8. A 4 when you trigger their identity, shame, or envy issues may show their claws to you though. It's not uncommon. Even if they retreat from confrontation like a Se PoLR and hide out stewing in their negative emotions. Why they are doing it is the better question. With a 4, it's because you maybe didn't understand them.

    - malicious
    In more damaged cases they can be. They are more of a shameless type of 4. I wouldn't say it's a hard rule. Sx 4s can be very nice too.

    - wanting to be superior
    Probably seen more in 3 wingers but the competitive drive to be seen as superior especially in relation to their rivals is a driving force for them. Again it's envy. You need to understand that emotion and all it entails to understand why this isn't out of line with a 4. A 4 will strive to be unique and authentic to themselves in this pursuit as opposed to a 3. That's the difference.

    - being "consciously aware" of their anger
    Yes this is just to say that sx 4s may be aware of anger in their personality more than sadness. I've already provided examples of sx 4s speaking to this quality.

    - "demanding what is rightfully theirs"
    Yes they can be demanding to fill the sense of lack. Not always, but it's not unthinkable.

    - "They want to be special and significant in the eyes of their partner"
    (mostly issue with significant in the last one, that sounds very 3._
    @mrrrmaid addressed this one already, and I wholly agree with what she had to say.

    I am very shy, modest, nice, peaceful albeit - intense at times, emotional, i can indeed "bite" so to speak when hurt, but that anger isn't there because im entitled, it's there because i think I feel that im ugly and repulsive to the core (im not actually but, that's how it feels at times). It's not hatred because of some entitlement, it's hatred because i hate myself and all i can see in the other person's eyes is the same thing. I could go deeper into it and but needless to say im not comfortable with the predominant image of a SX 4 being forced onto me or super-imposed onto me. I don't really want to argue or be attacked about this, unless you wanted to do it non-aggressively.
    The way you describe how you are seems more 9 to me. I'm not saying you're a 9, but have you looked at sx 9 if you have a problem with sx 4 descriptions? They can be confused with 4s. I don't want to take this away from andreasdevig's thread, and a lot of this discussion about sx 4 is doing that. I did find it interesting and couldn't help myself.

    Type 4: "there's something horribly wrong with me, I am ugly inside" + SX: my meaning in everything, sense of self, self worth, and very life essence itself seems to be tied to the 'special other half': There's something horribly ugly at my core, but I must find someone who will love me regardless.
    Yes, that's true for 4s. The way you describe tying one self to another is more 9 though. 4s are more independent in their sense of self and seek to find the other who will redeem them from their flawed state. There's a hole of emptiness they are trying to fill. They aren't so much tied to their "special other half" as they idealize them. 9s merge, 4s long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    I think archetypes are like guiding lights, it doesn't make the entirety of you. I just don't want something forced on me that doesn't belong to me. I would think others would feel similarly too...and because none of this is scientific...people have their own way of interpreting these archetypes, and imo it's fine to talk about how you personally see things, even if it differs from the way others have described it.
    You take issue with Beatrice Chestnut's description but are there any other sx 4 descriptions you relate to? Surely there is one that resonated with you can speak to? They don't all paint a picture of an aggressive, angry type. The link I provided earlier by Riso Hudson isn't like that, for reference. I think it's probably the best one I've seen.

    Yeah, well, it depends on the way "significance" is stated. I associate an overt desire to be "unique" and to be "significant" with type 3 influence. I just cannot see that in myself...
    I'm confused. I don't associate wanting to be unique with 3s. That's 4.

    5 being a head type, with it brings an unconscious feeling of being irredeemably and horribly broken inside, but not necessarily a conscious urge to be "unique, significant and compete." I don't care about those things. It's just...again not something I am and not something I ever have been...
    This isn't 5. You're describing core 4 patterns but you say you don't relate to it?

    Being unique and noteworthy by playing on society's terms and "competing" and coming out the best again in the eyes of the status quo - that's 3.

    4s don't care, imo. Of course, 4 with 3 influence can be like that.
    Yes, you're right.

    Threes can very much care about being unique just in the way you described, but like I said, they want to be, but they don't necessarily already feel unique in the sense of being the "ugly duckling"! That's 4. Everything else...well I can see that as other types as well, including 3.
    I wouldn't be too sure. 4s will identify with the "ugly duckling" image more so, yes, especially so 4s, but 3s can definitely feel like an ugly duckling (All those stars and their plastic surgeries!) or at least worthless and their striving to be the best and accomplish much in their life is a strategy to address that feeling. You said right above this that 3s care about being the best in the eyes of the status quo, so why would they also care about uniqueness? You can't fit in the status quo and care about uniqueness at the same time. 4s are the ones who want to be recognized for their uniqueness, more 3 wings too.

    4s are already nothing like anyone else, why bother competing? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with that haha, just trying to provide I guess what they might be thinking.

    Honestly though, I don't think anyone else is not "deep" it's just that people can act in shallow, uninteresting ways at times and what 4 wants more than anything is to see your 'ugliness' if you will, they just want you to be you. The 'authentic' you. No one is 'deeper' than anyone else...
    Again that doesn't sound exactly 4 to me. They will appreciate the ugliness more than a 3, yes, but they can often assume they are more special and real than others, so saying no one is deeper than anyone else strikes me as odd for a 4? 9s are a type more prone to universalizing sentiments while 4s very much appreciate individuality and people who are different.

    "special" and "significant" to me feels like...idk like something artificial. It's not natural. I can't relate to those words specifically. 4s hone their 'uniqueness' because they already feel ugly inside in the sense of being uglier than everyone else - and so "unique" in that way. "Special" and significant the way it is used in society usually, I associate with type 3. Special and significant in the eyes of the status quo.
    Already been over this with mrrrmaid.

    Chestnut copied from Naranjo as far as I can tell. Also, this is from word of mouth, I don't have actual proof yet - but apparently Naranjo took back his description of the SX 4 saying he didn't consider it as accurate anymore.

    Those authors may have re-stated the previous information on the enneagram types, perhaps not wanting to change much about them.

    I think there can be many variations on a type, I am not going to box "Sx 4s" into anything yet. Except maybe the very basic core.
    You have to draw some lines about the subtypes too.

    I could perhaps be wrong but maybe they...
    1) copied from each other
    and 2) possibly took the loudest example of an SX 4 since it was most obvious. Like I said, spitefulness and meanness are actually pretty human...I can certainly see that someone driven by envy could behave that way.
    Yes, I'm glad you see how that connects now, but then how are those traits pretty human if you also acknowledge that a person driven by envy, which is a 4 above any type, shares it too? It means you see that it is specific to 4.

    But the problem comes with Se PoLRs. Se PoLR descriptions explicitly state xIIs would not at all be into those things. At all.

    But since not all SX4s would be Se PoLR or even the louder version of the type...they may have been omitted from these descriptions.
    What if Se PoLR types were a part of those descriptions? You can't really say imo.

    I know we are talking about types here but... honestly this just sounds normal. Not saying it is unrelated to type but I think sometimes people project very human things onto type. I think I would give Se PoLR 4s some leeway with that "envious and spiteful" stuff though.
    A 4 is still envious no matter what your Sociotype. It must be said they aren't angry and hateful all the time.

    I am not mean, I don't want to do something like that. Not judging you, it's just not something I would do.
    It also sounds...normal. Perhaps you might get a little exasperated with me pointing this out but...after all the e-types are universal human themes/archetypes, haha.
    That really isn't helpful to say that behavior in line with the type as she described is just "normal". She was showing a pretty clear 4 pattern in her description of herself. Other types would not react in that manner. The 3 wing does enhance the outwardness of it, yes.

    I am not aggressive, using the description that I used for my last post. Unless I get hurt badly, which rarely happens, obviously. My heart has to be broken badly. Even then I wouldn't go against my values (Fi) or be cruel to someone (Se PoLR).
    Why do you think Sx 4s would go against their values or be cruel to others either? You seem to be reading more into the description than is there a lot of the time from my perspective. I don't mean that in a bad way but I just thought you may want to consider that. I'm just trying to make neutral observations.

    Many people are aggressive, spiteful, vindictive, envious - imo most people are capable of these things...4-ishness or not. The thing with EIIs though is that they try their best to steer clear of those things. Of course extreme instances and trauma can drive any type into doing really anything, but generally speaking.
    No, many people aren't really that in my experience. Have you seen a 9 act that way? Have those feelings? You really have to push a 9 especially 1 wing to become aggressive towards you. They have a hangup with getting angry. 4s not so much. You tick them off, question their identity, trigger their envy, and they will let their feelings dictate where they go, unfortunately.

    If we go by Naranjo description, the SO 4 would be me, even though I am not Social first. I just want to make clear I am definitely not the SX 4 description lol, and the social 4 is strikingly very much like me. It was wayyy too accurate. Except my issues are not tied to the social realm as intensely as they are to the SX realm. But in my demeanor, I am absolutely the SO 4 description and not the SX 4. Which is why I don't think they necessarily got the subtype right.
    They may not have gotten it right. True. I still don't think Se PoLR is an adequate explanation for that description being wrong when others can relate to it in different ways too. I just think some clarity from another perspective of someone outside the type can be helpful too. Also please don't take my comparison of you to 9 as suggesting that is your type. I don't want to make that assumption when I have not seen enough and could be making more distinctions about the types than necessary, not that I don't think what I said is inaccurate. Just what you described about the type read that way to me, not that it describes you.
    Last edited by Blue; 12-27-2018 at 08:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue View Post
    Yes, I agree that the 3 wing would bring out the narcissistic traits more. I don't agree that it doesn't make sense that you think Fi base can't have those feelings. Se is about action. You don't even have to act on those feelings as a 4 with Fi and Se PoLR. If you don't have those negative feelings, it would surprise me if one was a 4. A type that tends towards modesty is a 9, not a 4.
    I said I have a hard time seeing Fi users as narcissistic in the way 4s are described perhaps because I feel like 'authenticity,' being 'natural' if you will, subdued, is pretty much part of what Delta quadra values and comes across as.

    I don't really want to be attacked...
    I had made that pretty clear.


    In what way? A 4 is a type driven by envy. That surely can make one spiteful if you think someone has a better lot in life than you.
    The second manifestation of our PoLR is a complete aversion to force, aggression, conflict, violence, competition, and the whole idea of bending people and situations to get what one wants. This is where you get the “overly sensitive” aspect of our personalities. If someone says something in a way that is remotely confrontational, we retreat. If someone really wants to argue, we fall silent. If people are fighting, we will either try to settle the disagreement, get up and leave, or both. We will not “intrude on others' space,” whether physically or psychologically. We are virtually incapable of making anyone do anything or refusing a request. No matter how badly we may want something, if you flatly refuse, we are likely to back down, at least after a short while. EIIs do not make things happen – we prefer to wait for them to happen or let someone else take the lead. In those rare occasions where we try to be forceful, we become extremely uncomfortable and vulnerable. It's terrifying. We want everyone to get along, to share their thoughts in an accepting and peaceful discourse. We want everyone to “win” and leave unscarred, and since that seldom happens in an Se environment, we avoid such environments.

    You're putting words in the type description's mouth. Where does it say this or imply in any description that sx 4s lack empathy? I find 4s no matter what the subtype to be one of the more empathetic types.
    You may be reading too much into my description. To make others suffer because you need to be 'superior' is my eyes is a petty reason, and there's never any good reason to hurt someone else or 'make them suffer'...
    That's still lack of empathy.

    Yes, 4s can be angry, but it doesn't say they show violent behavior or are ready to attack or confront. That's an 8. A 4 when you trigger their identity, shame, or envy issues may show their claws to you though. It's not uncommon. Even if they retreat from confrontation like a Se PoLR and hide out stewing in their negative emotions. Why they are doing it is the better question. With a 4, it's because you maybe didn't understand them.
    Um, sure, I guess I did mention that before somewhere. Still nowhere close to the description though.

    Probably seen more in 3 wingers but the competitive drive to be seen as superior especially in relation to their rivals is a driving force for them. Again it's envy. You need to understand that emotion and all it entails to understand why this isn't out of line with a 4. A 4 will strive to be unique and authentic to themselves in this pursuit as opposed to a 3. That's the difference.
    But it's not Se PoLR, I think that description makes it pretty clear...

    Yes this is just to say that sx 4s may be aware of anger in their personality more than sadness. I've already provided examples of sx 4s speaking to this quality.
    Not accounting for Se PoLRs again. I don't think I am like that.

    @mrrrmaid addressed this one already, and I wholly agree with what she had to say.
    Idk, most of the conversations and descriptions I find I never relate to, maybe because like I said earlier, they don't take into account Se PoLR. But I can also see things a little differently.

    Also, yeah, Se PoLRs don't want to argue, and something I have noticed is that some people are happy with basically steam-rolling the other person instead of just letting them be. They emerge 'victorious' publicly speaking, with their narrative predominant. Regardless of what others might or might not think; truth or reality doesn't matter, bending reality to your will - 'winning' matters. I despise it.

    Doesn't mean I agree with it. But it's not in the best interests of my psychological health to make myself vulnerable to these things repeatedly. I just wanted to clarify some things in this post, that's why I responded...

    The way you describe how you are seems more 9 to me. I'm not saying you're a 9, but have you looked at sx 9 if you have a problem with sx 4 descriptions? They can be confused with 4s. I don't want to take this away from andreasdevig's thread, and a lot of this discussion about sx 4 is doing that. I did find it interesting and couldn't help myself.
    This isn't a new thing to me either. What if you tried to see my descriptions from the 4 perspective? Or sx 4. Instead of 9...
    People can have their own way of interpreting things, as long as they provide a general explanation for it, it's fine, imo.

    Yes, that's true for 4s. The way you describe tying one self to another is more 9 though.
    I am not sure what you mean with this one.

    4s are more independent in their sense of self and seek to find the other who will redeem them from their flawed state. There's a hole of emptiness they are trying to fill. They aren't so much tied to their "special other half" as they idealize them. 9s merge, 4s long.
    I don't think I said anything that should contradict this...if anything what you quoted me saying was in line with this.

    You take issue with Beatrice Chestnut's description but are there any other sx 4 descriptions you relate to? Surely there is one that resonated with you can speak to? They don't all paint a picture of an aggressive, angry type. The link I provided earlier by Riso Hudson isn't like that, for reference. I think it's probably the best one I've seen.
    Yeah, there were a couple that I was okay with, but too lazy to look them up right now.

    I'm confused. I don't associate wanting to be unique with 3s. That's 4.
    Yeah, as I mentioned in my reply to mrrrmaid...just forgetting about the enneagram completely...
    when I think of someone describing themselves as 'wanting to be unique' it comes across as tacky. Same for 'significant' and 'different' or whatever. ALL of those words I guess I associate with...tackiness. Not to say it's bad to want to be those things; but I honestly think that's a strange way to phrase the core of the 4. 4 has internalized this 'bad object' so much that the fact that they are different IS the ocean they swim in. They don't 'want' to be so much as they ARE.

    This isn't 5. You're describing core 4 patterns but you say you don't relate to it?
    I was injecting 5 into 4; not 5 by itself.
    As for 4 patterns, hopefully some of my earlier replies cleared that up.

    I wouldn't be too sure. 4s will identify with the "ugly duckling" image more so, yes, especially so 4s, but 3s can definitely feel like an ugly duckling (All those stars and their plastic surgeries!) or at least worthless and their striving to be the best and accomplish much in their life is a strategy to address that feeling. You said right above this that 3s care about being the best in the eyes of the status quo, so why would they also care about uniqueness? You can't fit in the status quo and care about uniqueness at the same time. 4s are the ones who want to be recognized for their uniqueness, more 3 wings too.
    Yes, anybody can feel like an ugly duckling. The difference with core 4 is that is - again - the ocean they swim in. They are not receptive to anyone pointing out something positive about them, compliments etc. no they will INSIST there is something wrong with them. They WANT that 'ugly' image of them validated. Hence the 'self-frustrating' or 'masochistic' personality type.

    Many other types may be at least able to see their good qualities, even if they feel bad about themselves - better than a 4.

    Again that doesn't sound exactly 4 to me. They will appreciate the ugliness more than a 3, yes, but they can often assume they are more special and real than others, so saying no one is deeper than anyone else strikes me as odd for a 4? 9s are a type more prone to universalizing sentiments while 4s very much appreciate individuality and people who are different.
    I am glad if I don't sound like a 4 as much anymore
    I have been working on this.

    You have to draw some lines about the subtypes too.
    Sure, but I don't agree with the pre-dominant image of SX 4 that is out there. That is conflicts with Se PoLR should be extremely obvious...and to me, saying 4s HAVE to be (basically non Se-PoLR things), implies Se PoLRs can't be SX 4s.

    Yes, I'm glad you see how that connects now, but then how are those traits pretty human if you also acknowledge that a person driven by envy, which is a 4 above any type, shares it too? It means you see that it is specific to 4.
    Ah, I meant that all these '9 archetypes' are still human. I feel like people tend to get lost in their type identification and may not realize how it actually 'universalizes' so to speak. That others have a piece of that in them as well.

    What if Se PoLR types were a part of those descriptions? You can't really say imo.
    Sure, anything de-emphasizing the competitiveness, aggression, hostility, cruelty etc. could possibly be a more Se PoLR description of 4.

    A 4 is still envious no matter what your Sociotype. It must be said they aren't angry and hateful all the time.
    Sure. I don't think that means they are going to hurt others, though. As much or as badly as the description suggests...

    That really isn't helpful to say that behavior in line with the type as she described is just "normal". She was showing a pretty clear 4 pattern in her description of herself. Other types would not react in that manner. The 3 wing does enhance the outwardness of it, yes.
    I wouldn't do something like that; yet I think there are a lot of people who would be perfectly fine being mean in that way because they felt bad about themselves. In that sense, I was saying it sounds 'normal.' Most people can be rather 'cruel' (by that word I just mean things I would never imagine doing myself lol, but not necessarily cruel in the sense of horrible or anything like that...)

    Why do you think Sx 4s would go against their values or be cruel to others either?
    I think my reference to Se PoLR should it make it very clear why I find that the classic SX 4 description sounds 'cruel' and to me would be against my values for sure.

    No, many people aren't really that in my experience. Have you seen a 9 act that way? Have those feelings? You really have to push a 9 especially 1 wing to become aggressive towards you. They have a hangup with getting angry. 4s not so much. You tick them off, question their identity, trigger their envy, and they will let their feelings dictate where they go, unfortunately.
    Se PoLRs still aren't going to behave in those overly aggressive ways, I think. The description makes that very clear.

    They may not have gotten it right. True. I still don't think Se PoLR is an adequate explanation for that description being wrong when others can relate to it in different ways too.
    Yeah, I addressed this in my earlier posts too. I see most people as much more capable of being ‘mean’ by deriding someone, for instance, but I don’t do that and don’t really see myself doing that. In my eyes, most people are capable in acting in those ways if they feel 'envious' enough.

    So yes, many people can relate to it, except for maybe the very, very sensitive Se PoLR

    I just think some clarity from another perspective of someone outside the type can be helpful too. Also please don't take my comparison of you to 9 as suggesting that is your type. I don't want to make that assumption when I have not seen enough and could be making more distinctions about the types than necessary, not that I don't think what I said is inaccurate. Just what you described about the type read that way to me, not that it describes you.
    That's fine.
    Last edited by VenusRose; 12-27-2018 at 10:56 AM.

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